Fletcher Loyer

[Victorbmyboy]

I'm just say


All of the top 50 4/5 star point guards (admitedly there are not many to begin with) don't want to play for Painter.

so i ask, WHY ???? Is it the motion offense? is it they don't get a chance to showcase their talents? is it they hate West lafayette? What is it tha t drives them away?

the only logical answer i could come up with is that a pure point guard must not like playing in painter's offense. You tell me, is there a different reason ?

I’d say not many pure point guards to go around. Most kids are combo scoring guards. So is painter only going after pure point guards? Help me out. I’m admitting I don’t know. I just see what IU recruits and who is in the top 50. I see lots of combo guards.

 

[IMSKRONG]

Could be. Physically he isn't IT. But iu guys are acting like on some boards like he doesnt belong on a B10 court. Hope he soundly proves them wrong.

If he isn't by far 100% by Nov. 1, scratch everything I have said.

Well he is likely to be closer to Daniel Moore than Yogi Ferrell.

 

[bonefish1]

I’d say not many pure point guards to go around. Most kids are combo scoring guards. So is painter only going after pure point guards? Help me out. I’m admitting I don’t know. I just see what IU recruits and who is in the top 50. I see lots of combo guards.

If you have a non-scoring PG, you're playing 4 on 5 on offense. Every player on the floor, and especially the one with the ball in his hands the most, has to be a threat to score, inside or outside.
Painter's had very few PG types who could shoot from outside, penetrate, finish as well as create looks for others.

 

[HoosierfanJM]

If you have a non-scoring PG, you're playing 4 on 5 on offense. Every player on the floor, and especially the one with the ball in his hands the most, has to be a threat to score, inside or outside.
Painter's had very few PG types who could shoot from outside, penetrate, finish as well as create looks for others.

He's likely to get the same treatment Isaiah Thompson got. When an undersized player can shoot it, teams learn to press hard on the perimeter and make that player drive. That player then has to be able to drive and actually finish; even if they can beat overplays off of the drive, an undersized point can get swallowed up near the rim.

One counter to that is when the undersized player has an uncommon skill; Yogi Ferrell's extreme strength or Lewis Jackson's extreme quickness allowed them to finish at 5'11".

The other counter to that is when the undersized player can play the '2' on offense and guard the point on defense. Hulls did that at IU with Oladipo handling the point a lot; prior to Oladipo arriving Hulls was terrible as a point guard on both ends. Last year Thompson guarded the point but Ivey initiated offense. Hell, the Bulls championship teams did it with MJ paired with either BJ Armstrong or Kerr. Both were undersized points that succeeded because they played the 2 on offense.

If Smith succeeds at Purdue, it may be because he isn't the primary facilitator--not thinking he has Lewis Jackson quickness.

Curious if any of you know - how successful was Branden Smith in AAU against top-tier nationally ranked guards? In high school his team was built around getting him shots, but I'm not even sure which AAU program he played for.

 

[Victorbmyboy]

If you have a non-scoring PG, you're playing 4 on 5 on offense. Every player on the floor, and especially the one with the ball in his hands the most, has to be a threat to score, inside or outside.
Painter's had very few PG types who could shoot from outside, penetrate, finish as well as create looks for others.

I know all that. I asked if he only goes after pure point guards. The 4/5 out has kind of taken over. I know painter runs things out of those. Not sure why he doesn’t recruit combo guys.

 

[mathboy]

The issue is Painter's inability to close the deal on these top 50 kids with any consistency.

It's 97% on the coach, the other 3% is stuff like facilities, TV, etc.

Okay, move the goal posts. Your issue was that somehow, the motion offense was a problem for goor point guards. It's not.

 

[Wolegib]

Wrong!!
We have a guy coming next year, Dravyn Gibbs-Lawhorn ranked at 50 rivals/48 by 247 composite

Boiler Up!

is he a true PG ? that's my entire point. Purdue attracks a lot of top 50 players. Purdue attracks a lot of shooters and big men and combo guards. i will not argue that Lawhorn is not talented. he's very talented. but when you think of him, who would compare him to? Would you compare him to a Bruce Parkinson, Quin Buckner, Sichting? or woul you compare him to Edwards and ivey? Is he a shooter/combo guard ? is he really a true point guard? Carsen Edwards was listed on the recruiting sites as a PG, but Carsen was more of a shooter/combo guard than point guard.

my point the ast 5 years, is that the top 4/5 star true PGs seem to be avoiding Purdue. Admittedly, there are very few pure point guards to begin with. most high school and AAU guards have the belief to get a scholarship, you need to be a shooter and score points. very few prospects today focus on being a floor general, distributing the ball and controling the tempo.

i wasn't really sold on Pack. he seemed more like another ccombo guard than an actual PG.

I guess true Pgs no longer exist in today's basketball. teams sign 2 combo guards / shooters and hope they can learn point guard skills along the way. I'll admit this is not only a purdue problem. many other elite basketball teams don't have elite point guards to control their team. I look at michigan. they have a lot of talent. but they don't seem to have a true point guard that is their floor general. and because of that, their talented team is rather inconsistent. the same case could be made for Duke, UK and Gonzaga. they have a lot of talent. But i don't see a guy like Dwayne Wade or Bobby hurley to lead them.

Steve Alford and Kyle Macy were great players. but they were more of a shooter than point guard. I look at the current Bucks and Golden State. I consider Holiday as a point guard. I consider curry as a guard.

Admittedly, I'm a very critical person. i'm not impressed easily. I thought Eastern could be that elusive elite PG. but........... part of my criteria for a great PG is that player must be able to hit free throws. Because at the end of a game, you want your PG to have the ball and control the game, and that means he will be fouled and he has to be able to hit clutch free throws. making clutch free throws was not one of Eastern's fortes.

soooooooo, who was out there that was an elite PG that painter missed out on? I don't know. and who is currently out there that is a genuine point guard ? i don't know that either. I see a lot of 5 star guards that score over 20 points a game and are labeled in recruiting services as point guards. but to me, the majority of them are combo guards.

Can a combo guard or shooter become a great pg? Does my definition of what is a true PG even exist anymore ?? i look at the bucks and I look at the lakers. in the NBA, it's the players who win games. it's the players who call the plays. the lakers had a very highly paid player playing point guard this year. but was he a true point guard? or was he the current definition of what a PG is today?

 

[Wolegib]

What I'm saying is that the "top 50" issue is more than point guards. You are taking one aspect of our recruiting and using that as your arguement's key proof. That is not valid logic. In fact it is really intellectually dishonest and I hope you know it. You should be smarter than that.

You could have easily said that no top 50 forwards want to play in Painter's motion offense, or no top 50 2-guards don't... etc. That's because we haven't recriuited ANY top-50 guys at ANY of those positions. It has nothing to do with the motion offense and point guards. It has to do with our ability to recruit top-50 guys. Lots of good teams with top-50 guys run motion. Painter's motion offense isn't the issue.

i was going to save that for a different discussion thread. I don't like painter using shooting guards at the small forward position either. and essentually, that is what many of painters teams consist of. Sasha, Mathias and Cline were not really small forwards. they were all great players, but i would have prefered they played SG, and we had a real forward play that position. I want Kaufman as our small forward not another SG! and i want Furst as our starting PF. and i HATE platooning centers. You will probably admit I was not a happy camper last year.

let's throw out top 50 players. and change the goal post a bit. not much, but just a little bit. When you look at painter's previous recruiting classes, when was the last time the best player in that class was a true PG ? people here talk about lew jack a lot. when he was recruited, was he considered as an elite pg? or was he the typical 3 star purdue recruits? was he considered the best player of his recruiting class ?

i'm going to compare painter to brohm. Recruiting offensive linemen has never really seemed to be a priority for brohm. He has admittedly improved. I'll ask, is recruiting a true PG a priority for painter ? or does he prefer shooters and combo guards?

 

[Poprudy]

I’d say not many pure point guards to go around. Most kids are combo scoring guards. So is painter only going after pure point guards? Help me out. I’m admitting I don’t know. I just see what IU recruits and who is in the top 50. I see lots of combo guards.

Agree. There is only about 10-15 top 100 PG's and most are 6'3" or taller. Most teams now utilize CG to run their offense and have the ability to score off the dribble or pull-up.

I personally would like to see Loyer used as a PG. He could be like a T. Jerome with the ability to shoot from every position on the court.

I would like to see Purdue get another CG or PG with those same abilities, but it doesn't seem it will happen.

 

[Victorbmyboy]

Agree. There is only about 10-15 top 100 PG's and most are 6'3" or taller. Most teams now utilize CG to run their offense and have the ability to score off the dribble or pull-up.

I personally would like to see Loyer used as a PG. He could be like a T. Jerome with the ability to shoot from every position on the court.

I would like to see Purdue get another CG or PG with those same abilities, but it doesn't seem it will happen.

I’m actually surprised he doesn’t go after more CG types.

 

[POTFHBTFU]

is he a true PG ? that's my entire point. Purdue attracks a lot of top 50 players. Purdue attracks a lot of shooters and big men and combo guards. i will not argue that Lawhorn is not talented. he's very talented. but when you think of him, who would compare him to? Would you compare him to a Bruce Parkinson, Quin Buckner, Sichting? or woul you compare him to Edwards and ivey? Is he a shooter/combo guard ? is he really a true point guard? Carsen Edwards was listed on the recruiting sites as a PG, but Carsen was more of a shooter/combo guard than point guard.

my point the ast 5 years, is that the top 4/5 star true PGs seem to be avoiding Purdue. Admittedly, there are very few pure point guards to begin with. most high school and AAU guards have the belief to get a scholarship, you need to be a shooter and score points. very few prospects today focus on being a floor general, distributing the ball and controling the tempo.

i wasn't really sold on Pack. he seemed more like another ccombo guard than an actual PG.

I guess true Pgs no longer exist in today's basketball. teams sign 2 combo guards / shooters and hope they can learn point guard skills along the way. I'll admit this is not only a purdue problem. many other elite basketball teams don't have elite point guards to control their team. I look at michigan. they have a lot of talent. but they don't seem to have a true point guard that is their floor general. and because of that, their talented team is rather inconsistent. the same case could be made for Duke, UK and Gonzaga. they have a lot of talent. But i don't see a guy like Dwayne Wade or Bobby hurley to lead them.

Steve Alford and Kyle Macy were great players. but they were more of a shooter than point guard. I look at the current Bucks and Golden State. I consider Holiday as a point guard. I consider curry as a guard.

Admittedly, I'm a very critical person. i'm not impressed easily. I thought Eastern could be that elusive elite PG. but........... part of my criteria for a great PG is that player must be able to hit free throws. Because at the end of a game, you want your PG to have the ball and control the game, and that means he will be fouled and he has to be able to hit clutch free throws. making clutch free throws was not one of Eastern's fortes.

soooooooo, who was out there that was an elite PG that painter missed out on? I don't know. and who is currently out there that is a genuine point guard ? i don't know that either. I see a lot of 5 star guards that score over 20 points a game and are labeled in recruiting services as point guards. but to me, the majority of them are combo guards.

Can a combo guard or shooter become a great pg? Does my definition of what is a true PG even exist anymore ?? i look at the bucks and I look at the lakers. in the NBA, it's the players who win games. it's the players who call the plays. the lakers had a very highly paid player playing point guard this year. but was he a true point guard? or was he the current definition of what a PG is today?

another wooly novel where he’s saying everything except i was wrong. He was a PG primarily but he is good enough to play the 2 so he’s a combo on paper although he was recruited to play PG at Purdue. We also recruited Morton as a PG and painter called him the best passer he has ever recruited. Tyger Campbell was about to come to Purdue until… $$$. We can get PGs. Stop making stuff up.

 

[FirstDownB]

Combo guard is basically the new point guard in today's game. The issue is not with combo guard vs. true point guard, its having enough legit guards who can move with the ball on the roster. If you can't do that at a high level you are just a shooting guard. We've had lots of those. A combo guard needs to be able to dribble into his shot, take a defender off the bounce, etc. A true shooting guard is dependent on being set up by someone else (typically a driving guard or post player) taking the help defense away from them. Or a series of screens, more than just a high ball screen. A lot of guys can claim combo guard but it takes high level ball skills to be a high D1 combo guard. IT was neither a true PG nor a combo. Hunter was a mid level combo. I'm not yet sure who on the '22 roster fits the bill as either a PG or combo guard, but it appears we are at least one head short.

 

[POTFHBTFU]

i was going to save that for a different discussion thread. I don't like painter using shooting guards at the small forward position either. and essentually, that is what many of painters teams consist of. Sasha, Mathias and Cline were not really small forwards. they were all great players, but i would have prefered they played SG, and we had a real forward play that position. I want Kaufman as our small forward not another SG! and i want Furst as our starting PF. and i HATE platooning centers. You will probably admit I was not a happy camper last year.

let's throw out top 50 players. and change the goal post a bit. not much, but just a little bit. When you look at painter's previous recruiting classes, when was the last time the best player in that class was a true PG ? people here talk about lew jack a lot. when he was recruited, was he considered as an elite pg? or was he the typical 3 star purdue recruits? was he considered the best player of his recruiting class ?

i'm going to compare painter to brohm. Recruiting offensive linemen has never really seemed to be a priority for brohm. He has admittedly improved. I'll ask, is recruiting a true PG a priority for painter ? or does he prefer shooters and combo guards?

OMg brohm has said OL has been one of his top priorities multiples seasons including at his hiring announcement you are ridiculous. It’s just hard to recruit them with Notre dame and Iowa (and smaller extent wisconsin) recruiting hard here. We got hartwig!

just the fact you refer to the 3 as a SF confirms you don’t understand painters offensive system. You can’t put a catch and shoot at the 2 and run his system with the 3 with his back at the basket. And a true SF will struggle at the perimeter moving and shooting. It kinda worked with Vincent Edwards for a while but That was forced to get Biggie on the court and Edwards was better at the 4. Edwards was a great 3 shooter and could move though. I do think Gillis could do OK at the 3 if it wouldn’t be a defensive mismatch but has a very slow release.

fire painter! Wooly doesn’t like his system.

 

[bonefish1]

He's likely to get the same treatment Isaiah Thompson got. When an undersized player can shoot it, teams learn to press hard on the perimeter and make that player drive. That player then has to be able to drive and actually finish; even if they can beat overplays off of the drive, an undersized point can get swallowed up near the rim.

One counter to that is when the undersized player has an uncommon skill; Yogi Ferrell's extreme strength or Lewis Jackson's extreme quickness allowed them to finish at 5'11".

The other counter to that is when the undersized player can play the '2' on offense and guard the point on defense. Hulls did that at IU with Oladipo handling the point a lot; prior to Oladipo arriving Hulls was terrible as a point guard on both ends. Last year Thompson guarded the point but Ivey initiated offense. Hell, the Bulls championship teams did it with MJ paired with either BJ Armstrong or Kerr. Both were undersized points that succeeded because they played the 2 on offense.

If Smith succeeds at Purdue, it may be because he isn't the primary facilitator--not thinking he has Lewis Jackson quickness.

Curious if any of you know - how successful was Branden Smith in AAU against top-tier nationally ranked guards? In high school his team was built around getting him shots, but I'm not even sure which AAU program he played for.

I caught a lot of grief on this board because I was pretty disappointed with the Smith scholie offer. With his size, unless you have elite quickness (like a LewJack) or athleticism, it's going to be a struggle.

 

[New Pal Boiler]

I caught a lot of grief on this board because I was pretty disappointed with the Smith scholie offer. With his size, unless you have elite quickness (like a LewJack) or athleticism, it's going to be a struggle.

Unless you have great handles and deep range. (Not saying he does)

 

[HoosierfanJM]

I caught a lot of grief on this board because I was pretty disappointed with the Smith scholie offer. With his size, unless you have elite quickness (like a LewJack) or athleticism, it's going to be a struggle.

I think you need a role. Without a partner that can create open shots, an undersized player that may be a good shooter won't get many opportunities.

I don't see the data - does anyone know how Braden Smith did in AAU and with which program? That's when he would have been tested to see if he's strong/quick enough to succeed against high-level players.

For instance, when Luke Brown wasn't getting much run with the Indiana Elite AAU team, and then was demoted to their second tier team, you could tell he was not a higher level recruit.

IU has Xavier Johnson at point guard at 6'3". Every other guard on IU's roster is at least 6'5". Can Smith guard Johnson, and is he quick/strong enough to function well against 6'3"-6'5" D1 guards? Moreover, when he is switched by a ball screen can he survive for 5-10 seconds against a big? Successful P5 basketball is really hard. Edey doesn't apologize for bulldozing smaller players, and no P5 guard will apologize for using a height/strength/quickness advantage.

 

[Purdue Grad in Texas]

I caught a lot of grief on this board because ***

You win some, you lose some, Lenny......

TGIF!

 

[Poprudy]

I’m actually surprised he doesn’t go after more CG types.

I think it's more getting a scoring guard to commit to playing within a system of set plays. I couldn't tell you the efficiency of IU's offense, but early on I don't believe it was very efficient under XJ. Now, later in the year things seemed to flow better, but at times it still struggled because he wanted to create for himself and would turn the ball over.

Do you know that information from beginning to end of the year for IU? Just curious

 

[HoosierfanJM]

I think it's more getting a scoring guard to commit to playing within a system of set plays. I couldn't tell you the efficiency of IU's offense, but early on I don't believe it was very efficient under XJ. Now, later in the year things seemed to flow better, but at times it still struggled because he wanted to create for himself and would turn the ball over.

Do you know that information from beginning to end of the year for IU? Just curious

You are spot-on; it was a mess for a long while. Woodson doesn't run many set plays (that was Archie) but he had a system that he thought would work and it wasn't working.

Woodson originally thought that because TJD couldn't/wouldn't shoot jumpers he needed TJD in the post to get him touches. Woody eventually altered the system for Johnson and TJD. When they started to run more high ball screens with TJD rolling behind Johnson and Race Thompson on the wing things got considerably better. Turned out that TJD got way better touches by rim running next to Johnson.

 

[johnboiler123]

another wooly novel where he’s saying everything except i was wrong. He was a PG primarily but he is good enough to play the 2 so he’s a combo on paper although he was recruited to play PG at Purdue. We also recruited Morton as a PG and painter called him the best passer he has ever recruited. Tyger Campbell was about to come to Purdue until… $$$. We can get PGs. Stop making stuff up.

Painter said that about Morton like 2 or 3 years ago. It's been obvious for a while that morton is nowhere near the best passer painter has ever had.

 

[mathboy]

Painter said that about Morton like 2 or 3 years ago. It's been obvious for a while that morton is nowhere near the best passer painter has ever had.

I will be curious to see if Morton’s assist numbers corroborate or conflict with your statement.

This year he might handle the ball a lot more than last year. With that year behind him, he may understand the offense much better. Assist numbers also depend on the other player making the basket, so there is some factor of error in that stat.

 

[bonefish1]

Okay, move the goal posts. Your issue was that somehow, the motion offense was a problem for goor point guards. It's not.

I'v

I think you need a role. Without a partner that can create open shots, an undersized player that may be a good shooter won't get many opportunities.

I don't see the data - does anyone know how Braden Smith did in AAU and with which program? That's when he would have been tested to see if he's strong/quick enough to succeed against high-level players.

For instance, when Luke Brown wasn't getting much run with the Indiana Elite AAU team, and then was demoted to their second tier team, you could tell he was not a higher level recruit.

IU has Xavier Johnson at point guard at 6'3". Every other guard on IU's roster is at least 6'5". Can Smith guard Johnson, and is he quick/strong enough to function well against 6'3"-6'5" D1 guards? Moreover, when he is switched by a ball screen can he survive for 5-10 seconds against a big? Successful P5 basketball is really hard. Edey doesn't apologize for bulldozing smaller players, and no P5 guard will apologize for using a height/strength/quickness advantage.

Really good on-ball defenders are going to make life tough for Smith. If he's facing guys like a Chris Kramer, 6'3, 205, Eastern 6'6, 220, or X Johnson 6'3, 200, guys who are bigger, stronger but just as quick, he's gonna have his work cut out for him.

 

[bonefish1]

Unless you have great handles and deep range. (Not saying he does)

I think he has the range, it's having the handles and shake to get himself open against P5 competition that'll probably be the challenge.

 

[bonefish1]

Painter said that about Morton like 2 or 3 years ago. It's been obvious for a while that morton is nowhere near the best passer painter has ever had.

The knock on Morton even in HS was that once he started facing higher level competition in AAU ball, that he really struggled against those better athletes.

 

[bonefish1]

I will be curious to see if Morton’s assist numbers corroborate or conflict with your statement.

This year he might handle the ball a lot more than last year. With that year behind him, he may understand the offense much better. Assist numbers also depend on the other player making the basket, so there is some factor of error in that stat.

I think assist numbers in Painters offense should have an * next to them. Dumping the ball into a 7'4 guy on the low block and him making a shot isn't really a unique skill.
Breaking your man down off the bounce, getting into the lane, drawing the D and hitting the open cutter to the bucket is the kind of assists we need.

 

[TX4GB]

Heide looked like he had a quick first step. He is flying under the radar with his injuries. He was a top 50 player early in his high school career. D won’t be there early. Maybe similar to Dakota with a little more height.

 

[bonefish1]

Heide looked like he had a quick first step. He is flying under the radar with his injuries. He was a top 50 player early in his high school career. D won’t be there early. Maybe similar to Dakota with a little more height.

I remember Heide being compared to the guy from Wis and I think another guy from Minny. Both good athletes, high flyers. Preinjury, I think Heide was a supposed to be a much better athleted than Mathias.

 

[Victorbmyboy]

I think it's more getting a scoring guard to commit to playing within a system of set plays. I couldn't tell you the efficiency of IU's offense, but early on I don't believe it was very efficient under XJ. Now, later in the year things seemed to flow better, but at times it still struggled because he wanted to create for himself and would turn the ball over.

Do you know that information from beginning to end of the year for IU? Just curious

I’m really not sure. I know he played extremely well in the last quarter of the season. It was more of head up looking for open guys. His vision got a lot better. He also recognized positioning. TJD is a lot more effective with a good X. IU was about 6-8 points a game away. The defense is good enough for sub 80 point games but not high 60s-low 70s.

 

[Victorbmyboy]

You are spot-on; it was a mess for a long while. Woodson doesn't run many set plays (that was Archie) but he had a system that he thought would work and it wasn't working.

Woodson originally thought that because TJD couldn't/wouldn't shoot jumpers he needed TJD in the post to get him touches. Woody eventually altered the system for Johnson and TJD. When they started to run more high ball screens with TJD rolling behind Johnson and Race Thompson on the wing things got considerably better. Turned out that TJD got way better touches by rim running next to Johnson.

They did that all year actually. Johnson just wasn’t good at it. He had very bad vision and angles. Once he stopped driving just to score and had his head up it was on. His shooting(although ugly) was very good. Xs stats are really good at the end of the year. The only set plays were out of timeouts or out of bounds play.

 

[HoosierfanJM]

They did that all year actually. Johnson just wasn’t good at it. He had very bad vision and angles. Once he stopped driving just to score and had his head up it was on. His shooting(although ugly) was very good. Xs stats are really good at the end of the year. The only set plays were out of timeouts or out of bounds play.

Ummm... according to Woodson, Trayce, and X, Trayce and X went to Woodson after mid-season with a plan to get TJD out of the post and rim running out of ball screens more, and they all said that was what greatly contributed to the improved offense.

Q. Trayce, seems like you and Xavier have kind of
taken your chemistry to a new level with the alley-oops
and all that. Just speak to how that's happened.
TRAYCE JACKSON-DAVIS: Me and him just talked about
it, we talked to Coach, trying to get more ball screen
oriented. He's a great player, especially when he gets downhill, he's going to make the right reads.

Mike Schumann @ The Daily Hoosier

@daily_hoosier

Trayce Jackson-Davis says he is pushing for less back to the basket play and more looks like they had against Purdue where he is getting downhill off high ball screens. #iubb


12:33 PM · Mar 8, 2022·Twitter Web App

 

[Hausta01]

Heide looked like he had a quick first step. He is flying under the radar with his injuries. He was a top 50 player early in his high school career. D won’t be there early. Maybe similar to Dakota with a little more height.

He fell in rankings due to foot issues he has had now for the last 18+ months. Hopefully he can get/stay healthy and produce but I am skeptical.

 

[johnboiler123]

The knock on Morton even in HS was that once he started facing higher level competition in AAU ball, that he really struggled against those better athletes.

Unfortunately, that seems to be a problem with many of the guards that painter recruits.

 

[mathboy]

Unfortunately, that seems to be a problem with many of the guards that painter recruits.

I think you make an offer to a kid that looks good and then take your chances. Carsen was one of those "chances" and so was Ivey to some degree. Recruits are like a box of chaocolates. You just don't know...

 

[77 grad]

is he a true PG ? that's my entire point. Purdue attracks a lot of top 50 players. Purdue attracks a lot of shooters and big men and combo guards. i will not argue that Lawhorn is not talented. he's very talented. but when you think of him, who would compare him to? Would you compare him to a Bruce Parkinson, Quin Buckner, Sichting? or woul you compare him to Edwards and ivey? Is he a shooter/combo guard ? is he really a true point guard? Carsen Edwards was listed on the recruiting sites as a PG, but Carsen was more of a shooter/combo guard than point guard.

my point the ast 5 years, is that the top 4/5 star true PGs seem to be avoiding Purdue. Admittedly, there are very few pure point guards to begin with. most high school and AAU guards have the belief to get a scholarship, you need to be a shooter and score points. very few prospects today focus on being a floor general, distributing the ball and controling the tempo.

i wasn't really sold on Pack. he seemed more like another ccombo guard than an actual PG.

I guess true Pgs no longer exist in today's basketball. teams sign 2 combo guards / shooters and hope they can learn point guard skills along the way. I'll admit this is not only a purdue problem. many other elite basketball teams don't have elite point guards to control their team. I look at michigan. they have a lot of talent. but they don't seem to have a true point guard that is their floor general. and because of that, their talented team is rather inconsistent. the same case could be made for Duke, UK and Gonzaga. they have a lot of talent. But i don't see a guy like Dwayne Wade or Bobby hurley to lead them.

Steve Alford and Kyle Macy were great players. but they were more of a shooter than point guard. I look at the current Bucks and Golden State. I consider Holiday as a point guard. I consider curry as a guard.

Admittedly, I'm a very critical person. i'm not impressed easily. I thought Eastern could be that elusive elite PG. but........... part of my criteria for a great PG is that player must be able to hit free throws. Because at the end of a game, you want your PG to have the ball and control the game, and that means he will be fouled and he has to be able to hit clutch free throws. making clutch free throws was not one of Eastern's fortes.

soooooooo, who was out there that was an elite PG that painter missed out on? I don't know. and who is currently out there that is a genuine point guard ? i don't know that either. I see a lot of 5 star guards that score over 20 points a game and are labeled in recruiting services as point guards. but to me, the majority of them are combo guards.

Can a combo guard or shooter become a great pg? Does my definition of what is a true PG even exist anymore ?? i look at the bucks and I look at the lakers. in the NBA, it's the players who win games. it's the players who call the plays. the lakers had a very highly paid player playing point guard this year. but was he a true point guard? or was he the current definition of what a PG is today?

Does "attracks" mean "attracts" or "attacks"?

 

[SCBoiler1]

Crazy how unproductive Morton has been considering how highly recruited he was out of HS. So far has been a bust. Don't see him being more than a backup level player. IMO our only saving grace at guard next year is that Newman has at least showed potential to be a big time scorer, though I don't think it will happen with any consistency. Loyer will turn into that typical Painter 3 point specialist that can help us win a lot of games, but it takes 2-3 years before he gets there. I'm just hoping smith isn't completely overwhelmed being on a court with big ten players.

I'm hoping Newman can score with some consistency or we're in real trouble. He's going to have every opportunity as I don't see any of our other guards filling that role, at least not next year,

My friends and I joke that we've never seen any player have less impact on a game than Morton. Neither good or bad. He's Even Steven. He's going to need to show that he can be more of a placeholder next year. I think he does a pretty good job of keeping in front of his man on defense and he hit the open three at a pretty good clip but I haven't seen much that would indicate he's ready to take on the role of a starting guard unless you have extremely talented guys surrounding him.

 

[SCBoiler1]

I will be curious to see if Morton’s assist numbers corroborate or conflict with your statement.

This year he might handle the ball a lot more than last year. With that year behind him, he may understand the offense much better. Assist numbers also depend on the other player making the basket, so there is some factor of error in that stat.

Not all assist are equal.. There are the assists were you feed the low post or you pass the ball around the perimeter and the guy hits a three, These assists are dependent on another player making a play. Sasha averaged three assists a game this way but I wouldn't necessarily consider Sasha a great passer.

When I think of a guy being a good passer I think of a guy like Williams. Many of his assist lead directly to an easy basket. He attracts attention and passes to a guy for a layup or a wide open three. I also look to how a guy leads a break.

I think of Morton along the lines of Sasha and I guess I agree with you that Morton's assists are highly dependent on another player making a play but I don't necessarily consider Morton a great passer.

 

[SCBoiler1]

Painter said that about Morton like 2 or 3 years ago. It's been obvious for a while that morton is nowhere near the best passer painter has ever had.

Morton had 0 or 1 assists in 22 of Purdue's 37 games. His assist numbers were skewed a little as he had 7 assists against Nichols State. In conference play he averaged 1 assist per game and was tied for 5th on the team in assist per 40.

 

[Poprudy]

I'm hoping Newman can score with some consistency or we're in real trouble. He's going to have every opportunity as I don't see any of our other guards filling that role, at least not next year,

My friends and I joke that we've never seen any player have less impact on a game than Morton. Neither good or bad. He's Even Steven. He's going to need to show that he can be more of a placeholder next year. I think he does a pretty good job of keeping in front of his man on defense and he hit the open three at a pretty good clip but I haven't seen much that would indicate he's ready to take on the role of a starting guard unless you have extremely talented guys surrounding him.

Reminds me of Eastern, but with a better shot. I think the tools are there and he's proven to be a defensive stud at times. You're correct that this will be on another level for him. He'll need to do both score and run the show.

I think for us to succeed this year. He will need to prove that he can do both when needed.

 

[johnboiler123]

I'm hoping Newman can score with some consistency or we're in real trouble. He's going to have every opportunity as I don't see any of our other guards filling that role, at least not next year,

My friends and I joke that we've never seen any player have less impact on a game than Morton. Neither good or bad. He's Even Steven. He's going to need to show that he can be more of a placeholder next year. I think he does a pretty good job of keeping in front of his man on defense and he hit the open three at a pretty good clip but I haven't seen much that would indicate he's ready to take on the role of a starting guard unless you have extremely talented guys surrounding him.

Haha you know I never thought about Morton that way but that's probably a pretty good way to describe him. Isn't really a big liability but he also isn't out there producing on court results. "Even Steven" is probably a pretty good nickname for him.

 

[johnboiler123]

Not all assist are equal.. There are the assists were you feed the low post or you pass the ball around the perimeter and the guy hits a three, These assists are dependent on another player making a play. Sasha averaged three assists a game this way but I wouldn't necessarily consider Sasha a great passer.

When I think of a guy being a good passer I think of a guy like Williams. Many of his assist lead directly to an easy basket. He attracts attention and passes to a guy for a layup or a wide open three. I also look to how a guy leads a break.

I think of Morton along the lines of Sasha and I guess I agree with you that Morton's assists are highly dependent on another player making a play but I don't necessarily consider Morton a great passer.

As you alluded to there is a lot more to being a great passer than just raw assist numbers. Williams is by far the best/most gifted passer painter has had yet isn't the assist leader of all recruited players by painter. Not surprised mathboy doesn't understand this. I honestly thought ivey was pretty damn good too. It's been a while, but I feel like Hummel could toss it around pretty good too. Other than that it's been pretty 'meh'. I don't consider a guard who just dumps it into the post to be a "good passer".