Zone...?

[bonefish1]

I still don't understand why MP refuses to use a zone.
Wouldn't yesterday have been the ideal time to use it: You can't contain the dribble, your big is getting pulled away from the basket, opening up the lane for said drives, opponent is not known as a good jump shooters, or running a good 1/2 court offense, etc, etc. Just seemed like the perfect time.
Put Eastern at the top on the ball, put Haas in the paint, Vince and DM on the wings and Carsen opposite Eastern.
Instead of iu getting dribble penetration, they would have tossed the ball around the perimeter before jacking up desperation 3's.
I think we'll struggle with a team with a big who matches up with Haas and quick guards who can dribble penetrate.

 

[depthcharge623]

No.

 

[JohnnyDoeBoiler]

I still don't understand why MP refuses to use a zone.
Wouldn't yesterday have been the ideal time to use it: You can't contain the dribble, your big is getting pulled away from the basket, opening up the lane for said drives, opponent is not known as a good jump shooters, or running a good 1/2 court offense, etc, etc. Just seemed like the perfect time.
Put Eastern at the top on the ball, put Haas in the paint, Vince and DM on the wings and Carsen opposite Eastern.
Instead of iu getting dribble penetration, they would have tossed the ball around the perimeter before jacking up desperation 3's.
I think we'll struggle with a team with a big who matches up with Haas and quick guards who can dribble penetrate.

Here, I thought this would be helpful:

Weaknesses of a 2-3 Zone Defense
1. Great Outside Shooting – The biggest disadvantage of a 2-3 zone defense is that it can struggle against great outside shooting teams. It’s the trade-off this defense makes in order to pack the paint so well.

2. Rebounding – In a zone players don’t have specific match ups, they guard areas. This can make rebounding a problem at times.

3. Offense Chooses Matchups – Though there will always be great help if they get beaten off the dribble, if the offense want to match their best player up against your worst player every time down the floor, they can.

4. Playing from Behind – If you’re playing from behind teams can use up all of the shot clock on each possession. If there’s is no shot clock, well, it looks like you can’t play zone anymore.

5. A Loose Link – The zone relies heavily on the team working together as a unit. If any player doesn’t fulfil their role, other defenders will have to compensate and it will lead to open gaps and usually easy scores for the other team.

 

[JohnnyDoeBoiler]

Here, I thought this would be helpful:

Weaknesses of a 2-3 Zone Defense
1. Great Outside Shooting – The biggest disadvantage of a 2-3 zone defense is that it can struggle against great outside shooting teams. It’s the trade-off this defense makes in order to pack the paint so well.

2. Rebounding – In a zone players don’t have specific match ups, they guard areas. This can make rebounding a problem at times.

3. Offense Chooses Matchups – Though there will always be great help if they get beaten off the dribble, if the offense want to match their best player up against your worst player every time down the floor, they can.

4. Playing from Behind – If you’re playing from behind teams can use up all of the shot clock on each possession. If there’s is no shot clock, well, it looks like you can’t play zone anymore.

5. A Loose Link – The zone relies heavily on the team working together as a unit. If any player doesn’t fulfil their role, other defenders will have to compensate and it will lead to open gaps and usually easy scores for the other team.

So taking into account the game against IU, playing a zone would have highlighted two of those weaknesses in a zone that Purdue struggled with: Rebounding (IU ended up out-rebounding Purdue by 1) and playing from behind (Purdue down 10 to start the game). It also doesn't take in to account of the loose link issue that trying to teach multiple defensive concepts likely leads to issues for one or both defenses. This was a frequent issue for Crean as he liked to switch between zone and man, even doing so on the same possession. When Crean went away from this concept 2 years ago, IU improved immensely on the defensive end and likely led to the turn around needed to win the conference title.

 

[JohnnyDoeBoiler]

I still don't understand why MP refuses to use a zone.
Wouldn't yesterday have been the ideal time to use it: You can't contain the dribble, your big is getting pulled away from the basket, opening up the lane for said drives, opponent is not known as a good jump shooters, or running a good 1/2 court offense, etc, etc. Just seemed like the perfect time.
Put Eastern at the top on the ball, put Haas in the paint, Vince and DM on the wings and Carsen opposite Eastern.
Instead of iu getting dribble penetration, they would have tossed the ball around the perimeter before jacking up desperation 3's.
I think we'll struggle with a team with a big who matches up with Haas and quick guards who can dribble penetrate.

You are also copying and pasting what you probably see from mid-level high school teams rather than what high level talent and coaching would do against an average zone....think some of these lower level mid-majors trying to switch to a zone against Purdue when Haas gets 10 straight buckets......it's not pretty.

You should really do more leg work and reading on the subject before consistently complaining about something like this. I may be wrong but I highly doubt you have spent time reading material and watching film/videos on zone defenses and defensive concepts in general. If you have, my apologies...if you haven't, then quit complaining constantly about something you don't know or don't understand.

 

[bonefish1]

No.

Why not?
It's been proven that we struggle with dribble penetration and Haas has trouble if pulled away from the bucket.
I'm not saying you switch your entire defensive philosophy, but switch things up to make the other team adjust. Give them a new look that they have to adjust to. All iu was doing was spreading the floor and playing 1 on 1. Pretty simple to see that.

 

[JohnnyDoeBoiler]

Why not?
It's been proven that we struggle with dribble penetration and Haas has trouble if pulled away from the bucket.
I'm not saying you switch your entire defensive philosophy, but switch things up to make the other team adjust. Give them a new look that they have to adjust to. All iu was doing was spreading the floor and playing 1 on 1. Pretty simple to see that.

And why do you think that now splitting the time and effort needed to install, practice, and implement, a new defense would have helped?

 

[BoilerinLouisville]

I said this as well yesterday during the game. There was a spot in the 1st half, and maybe 2nd to throw a zone at them to change it up. It would keep Haas down low, and hopefully take away the pick and roll action they were doing in the lane. IU also statistically isn't a good 3 point shooting team. I do think it's okay to mix it up occasionally and get away from your core principles, if it makes sense.

 

[hamcoboiler]

hard to argue with the coach that has the 7th best defense in basketball. virginia doesn't play zone and they have the best defense in the history of the kenpom era.

 

[Knights2715]

Never going to happen under CMP, and I’m perfectly ok with that

 

[bonefish1]

You are also copying and pasting what you probably see from mid-level high school teams rather than what high level talent and coaching would do against an average zone....think some of these lower level mid-majors trying to switch to a zone against Purdue when Haas gets 10 straight buckets......it's not pretty.

You should really do more leg work and reading on the subject before consistently complaining about something like this. I may be wrong but I highly doubt you have spent time reading material and watching film/videos on zone defenses and defensive concepts in general. If you have, my apologies...if you haven't, then quit complaining constantly about something you don't know or don't understand.

You're right, I haven't studied it. But, I do know what the general purpose of it is defensively and what's it's designed to prevent.
Like I said, you don't have to be Syracuse, but if a team is carving up your defense, it's not the worst thing to make a change just to shake things up, get a stop, etc.
We have decent perimeter defenders, but UM and iu showed that they have a look of trouble containing the dribble.

 

[tjreese]

hard to argue with the coach that has the 7th best defense in basketball. virginia doesn't play zone and they have the best defense in the history of the kenpom era.

here is the thing..."IF" you are worried about the three ball a zone will not help you in stopping that as well as a long list of other problems. "IF" you are NOT worried about the three ball you can go under screens and sag...essentially preventing the drive and yet maintaining the block out assignments. The situation is what do you do with Haas. If you were playing a team that the big was THE perimeter threat and a smaller, but quick guy couldn't shoot but drive the ball..a zone that leans towards teh threat could help and keep Haas close to the bucket, but none of that says that vertical screens and player movement can't be switched to accomplish the same thing. Matt (wrongly in my opinion) valued the three ball..perhaps IU shoots it better at home? I think JOhnny Doe gave a pretty good list of some basic situations of a zone. I've said this a million times...;you either lean to the player match or the area of the court match...one you start your lean you try to adjust by bringing in the principles of the one you were not leaning towards. If you review teh Butler game...you will see quite a lot hustle to stop the dribble...Purdue never quite had that since.

Thsi team is NOT invincible and has weaknesses...and speed and/or athleticism is one. Last comment..a zone is much more effective in high school than college due to the poorer skills

 

[mathboy]

Why not?
It's been proven that we struggle with dribble penetration and Haas has trouble if pulled away from the bucket.
I'm not saying you switch your entire defensive philosophy, but switch things up to make the other team adjust. Give them a new look that they have to adjust to. All iu was doing was spreading the floor and playing 1 on 1. Pretty simple to see that.

Why don't we try playing with just 4 players? One less pass to get intercepted, one less player to foul, one less player to have a turnover. Wow, what a great idea... They could play zone too!

 

[TopSecretBoiler]

ah...already a use.
Just stop. I am not playin'.

 

[tjreese]

You're right, I haven't studied it. But, I do know what the general purpose of it is defensively and what's it's designed to prevent.
Like I said, you don't have to be Syracuse, but if a team is carving up your defense, it's not the worst thing to make a change just to shake things up, get a stop, etc.
We have decent perimeter defenders, but UM and iu showed that they have a look of trouble containing the dribble.

you can contain the dribble without a zone if willing to concede the same three ball scoring. A zone will require more organization for the offense to attach effectively and the change could provide a wrinkle ...enough to cause issues for a poor team. You will NOT beat a good team with a zone...and if you could...you would beat them with a man most likely, but like a press...if the team has severe limitations..it could work well. It is interesting that a match-up attempts to take the best of both extremes (pure zone and man) and blend them ..with more emphasis on floor location than a switching man..and yet nobody talks about a match-up zone..it is either zone or man.

 

[Gemini95]

Why not?
It's been proven that we struggle with dribble penetration and Haas has trouble if pulled away from the bucket.
I'm not saying you switch your entire defensive philosophy, but switch things up to make the other team adjust. Give them a new look that they have to adjust to. All iu was doing was spreading the floor and playing 1 on 1. Pretty simple to see that.

and we held them to 5.8 points below their season average.

 

[FirstDownB]

Also, there were times yesterday when the offense was struggling that Painter should have mixed it up and sprinkled in a little triangle offense. Don't we have a few of those Matrix-style data uploader thingeys that plug into your brain behind the bench? Or are we still doing things the old fashioned way by spending countless hours practicing and honing in order to become proficient? LAME!

 

[02Boilermaker]

The 1st half vs 2nd half numbers for IU indicate Painter/Purdue were able to make corrections while staying man-2-man.

IU's offensive #s:
1st half: 15-26 FG (57.7%), 3-9 3P, 4 TOs --- 37 pts
2nd half: 12-28 FG (42.9%), 0-7 3P, 6 TOs --- 30 pts

If you want to question the defense, I think the better question is "why did it take the halftime break for Painter & a veteran team to fix things?" I suspect a lot has to do with IU just executing really well to start the game (sometimes offense just beats defense), but I think I remember Painter mentioning he wasn't happy with how the guys were executing the defense during the little halftime interview. If he was seeing something he didn't like, I think it's fair to ask why he wasn't able to make corrections during the 1st half TOs.

 

[tjreese]

The 1st half vs 2nd half numbers for IU indicate Painter/Purdue were able to make corrections while staying man-2-man.

IU's offensive #s:
1st half: 15-26 FG (57.7%), 3-9 3P, 4 TOs --- 37 pts
2nd half: 12-28 FG (42.9%), 0-7 3P, 6 TOs --- 30 pts

If you want to question the defense, I think the better question is "why did it take the halftime break for Painter & a veteran team to fix things?" I suspect a lot has to do with IU just executing really well to start the game (sometimes offense just beats defense), but I think I remember Painter mentioning he wasn't happy with how the guys were executing the defense during the little halftime interview. If he was seeing something he didn't like, I think it's fair to ask why he wasn't able to make corrections during the 1st half TOs.

I think Purdue was caught off guard with the physical play that was allowed...and once Purdue got back into the game there was little reason to show a hand so that the other team at half could prepare for the second half. That said, I'm not sure I saw real adjustments...and perhaps I was not focused. I just think Purdue got spread out too much on teh perimeter and not sure why. I'm guessing that other than IU getting hot behind the arc...he didn't think IU could score enough 2 pt baskets to over come Purdues inside play and Vince. I don't know the thought but if you are not concerned for the three ball you sag more. He must have looked at the numbers and although it wasn't pretty...he didn't think they could beat as likely as IU having an unusual day behind the arc...who knows?

 

[BBG]

Why not?

Because we don't need to

It's been proven that we struggle with dribble penetration and Haas has trouble if pulled away from the bucket.

Not completely true as a whole, our defense has been very good really. It doesn't matter what defense you play, if you don't execute properly on the floor then bad things happen.

Pretty simple to see that.

It's also very simple to see that if we execute how we are supposed to on defense, those dribble drives won't happen.

I also don't think it's because Painter is "stubborn" or anything like that, we have bigger issues to work on first.

 

[BBG]

If he was seeing something he didn't like, I think it's fair to ask why he wasn't able to make corrections during the 1st half TOs.

I think HOW a game is officiated has a big impact on adjusting. It really seemed like every time we started to warm up, some cheap thing was called that changed momentum.

Now a senior heavy team should understand that and adjust and they did to an extent in the second half, but that should of happened sooner.

 

[BoilerBiker]

Never going to happen under CMP, and I’m perfectly ok with that

with our roster at the time (and coming off the previous 2 seasons) ,
painter practiced and implemented some zone in the beginning of the 2014 season.

 

[skfboiler]

Zone is a 4 letter word on this board. After watching the last season's Kansas lost, I brought it up a month or so ago for Purdue to use against more athletic teams and got beat up.

 

[mathboy]

0 zones
0 Final Fours
Keady + Painter

False cause and effect logic. Try again.

Duke and Kentucky 0 zones, lots of FF's.

 

[Born Boiler]

When you watch two straight teams shoot over 50 percent by spreading your man-to-man for ongoing blow-by layups, you could do worse things than pull a zone from your back pocket.

Michigan needed 37 minutes at home to score what it scored inside 20 minutes at our place just four days earlier -- struggling against a zone posed by a team slower than ours. The Mighty Wolverines had all of five points through the first 11 minutes against the mild kitties.

There’s a reason the NBA banned zone defenses for over half a century, and ineffectiveness wasn’t it. If it can slow down the world’s best athletes, imagine what it can do to a two-man team like … oh, never mind. Until March. Then we’ll talk about this again.

 

[icewind7]

Implement a twilight zone which will definitely work

 

[klmLB]

ah...already a use.
Just stop. I am not playin'.

I have a feeling this meme is going to be a timeless one that will be rightfully used over and over on this board.

 

[Do Dah Day]

I have a feeling this meme is going to be a timeless one that will be rightfully used over and over on this board.

what is the backstory to this???

 

[JohnnyDoeBoiler]

Also, there were times yesterday when the offense was struggling that Painter should have mixed it up and sprinkled in a little triangle offense. Don't we have a few of those Matrix-style data uploader thingeys that plug into your brain behind the bench? Or are we still doing things the old fashioned way by spending countless hours practicing and honing in order to become proficient? LAME!

At first I thought you were being serious but it turned so hard...thank you for that!

 

[klmLB]

what is the backstory to this???

No backstory. Just a fun, versatile meme that can be used in a variety of ways.

 

[Born Boiler]

Implement a twilight zone which will definitely work

Even better -- the School Zone. The crossing guard will make them stop.

 

[tjreese]

0 zones
0 Final Fours
Keady + Painter

all mass shooters have arms You want a zone...fine...reasons exist...as do reasons not to.

 

[depthcharge623]

When you watch two straight teams shoot over 50 percent by spreading your man-to-man for ongoing blow-by layups, you could do worse things than pull a zone from your back pocket.

Michigan needed 37 minutes at home to score what it scored inside 20 minutes at our place just four days earlier -- struggling against a zone posed by a team slower than ours. The Mighty Wolverines had all of five points through the first 11 minutes against the mild kitties.

There’s a reason the NBA banned zone defenses for over half a century, and ineffectiveness wasn’t it. If it can slow down the world’s best athletes, imagine what it can do to a two-man team like … oh, never mind. Until March. Then we’ll talk about this again.

Right, because teams never just shoot better or worse on their own on a given night...

 

[tjreese]

Right, because teams never just shoot better or worse on their own on a given night...

Matt could have instantly stopped the dribble penetration...instantly. Doing so would have opened up the three ball. There is NO defense that does everything perfect

 

[JohnnyDoeBoiler]

Matt could have instantly stopped the dribble penetration...instantly. Doing so would have opened up the three ball. There is NO defense that does everything perfect

I know CMP has talked endlessly about this exact topic with Cliz on the radio show. Last night was no different as he discussed how IU and Michigan were able to get to the rim in what appeared easier fashion than in previous weeks. I suggest taking a listen to those as it's coming directly from the guy you are questioning.

Reese, this also isn't directed at you...just using your words to respond in general.

 

[tjreese]

I know CMP has talked endlessly about this exact topic with Cliz on the radio show. Last night was no different as he discussed how IU and Michigan were able to get to the rim in what appeared easier fashion than in previous weeks. I suggest taking a listen to those as it's coming directly from the guy you are questioning.

Reese, this also isn't directed at you...just using your words to respond in general.

would never consider it was...pretty obvious what I said was true...no problem

 

[destewart]

False cause and effect logic. Try again.

Duke and Kentucky 0 zones, lots of FF's.

Kansas went to zone against KSU last night and announcer said Self uses a zone about as often as
As Sasquatch appears. Jayhawks won!

 

[TopSecretBoiler]

what is the backstory to this???

This is what carsen said to our bench right after he posterized the iu player. I turned it into a gif. I really like how it turned out.

 

[bonefish1]

Matt could have instantly stopped the dribble penetration...instantly. Doing so would have opened up the three ball. There is NO defense that does everything perfect

OK, so do you play the statistics and percentages? What would you rather have: iu taking 3 pt shots, or iu guards driving the lane for easy layups and potentially getting your bigs in foul trouble?

 

[JohnnyDoeBoiler]

OK, so do you play the statistics and percentages? What would you rather have: iu taking 3 pt shots, or iu guards driving the lane for easy layups and potentially getting your bigs in foul trouble?

Here is a better question: Let's say CMP went to a zone and a team promptly hit 3 to 4 three's in a row....would you be here clamoring to get out of the zone because it clearly isn't working?