TJD Top 6
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Actually, it doesn't. I call out IU fans on the IU board I'm on for being overtly homers too, when it looks like they are wearing the crimson shaded glasses. Last time I checked, I'm allowed to
have discussion and opinions on this free board just like everyone else. If you don't like my opinions, you can ignore me. Your choice.
IU has always done well getting star power to IU. Especially with a new coach that will do what the previous didn't. Archie recruited well in the past...whether at Dayton or with Sean. ARchie's ties may not b e as important as Schillings...
MSU had nothing to do with JJJ getting drafted. His actual results were not worthy of a sniff...it was all about potential
no..he was mentioned as a very top end player after one year BEFORE he went to MSU. MSU had nothing to do with him getting in the league
Actually it does. Because again, you're on a Purdue forum. Certainly you are allowed to have discussions and opinions, but policing it when you aren't even a Purdue fan doesn't fall in to that scheme. If you don't like being called on it, then go back to peegs or you can ignore me. Your choice but I am going to keep calling you on it because again, this is a Purdue forum so we are allowed to be as much of a 'homer' as we want to be here so you can get over yourself.
Boy you're not kidding. A pretty good argument could be made that JJJ was a lottery pick IN SPITE of his time at MSU.
His results weren't worthy of a sniff? He was the B10 defensive player of the year, averaged 11 and 6 along with 3 blocks a game and was a 40% three point shooter at 6'10.
Technically, this is a national forum with a Purdue oriented focus. Gold and Black sold out to Rivals a few years ago. If you want a Purdue forum I suggest hammer and rails or gridiron. the home page says it all. We are now part of the Rivals community.
Not sure how different other than % three point it differs from many...AJ included and he (JJJ) wasn't even the best on his team to draw the same attention. It makes no difference to me to get into these silly discussions..I really don't care. It was just humorous seeing a school getting rewarded for "PUTTING" players in the league that would have been there anyway. You think OG was drafted on results? College and NBA are different games and some better college players are not going to be drafted into the NBA even though they were better college players. If you want to believe that MSU and IU were responsible for "putting" the players mentioned in the league...who am I to tell you that you shouldn't believe that which you desire?
Someone's heated.....didn't realize I was policing. Sure, you're allowed to be as much of a homer as you want, anyone can be. That doesn't mean I can't make a comment about it. It's not like I banished him from the forum for being a homer....I just gave my opinion.
You said his results weren't worthy of a sniff. I never said anything about MSU being responsible for him being drafted, in fact I said he got drafted despite the way he was underutilized at MSU and that was due to his measurables and skill set (potential). But if you watched JJJ actually play last year and came away with the feeling that he wasn't worthy of a draft pick I'm not sure you and I can debate anything basketball related. There's only x amount of players who are 6'10 who are that athletic and that polished offensively at that age.
This whole argument stems from a poster stating that TJD would be better suited going to Purdue (over IU) because Matt Painter has more "big men in the pros in the last 10 years" and attributed it to players and their 4 year development at Purdue (wasn't said but was implied). Someone like TJD isn't in the camp where he needs to go to a school, play 4 years, and hope he ends up signing a professional contract at the end of the day. He needs to go to a school where he can showcase his skills for a year or two before getting drafted.
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I think you need to go back and look at OG's recruiting ranking. He was a 3* player that become a top 25 pick in the draft. He improved a ton while at IU. That's like saying Oladipo wasn't developed at IU.
I don't think there is any question that OG was developed at IU. It's also ridiculous to stake a claim that somebody like Cody Zeller didn't benefit from playing at IU. Yeah I firmly believe that Cody Zeller came to IU with a skill set that would still have allowed him to get drafted at some point, but it's beyond ridiculous to claim that IU or Crean didn't play a part in him getting drafted 4th overall after his sophomore year. It's ridiculous to think top 10 players and/or 5* players can't get better or develop at the college level. Sure there are players good enough to get drafted in the top 10 right out of high school but not every 5* player is a guaranteed first round draft pick after their freshman year of college.
Na, you'd have to matter first for me to get 'heated'. Spoiler alert: you don't.
And sure you can make a comment, just like you can be called out for those comments while on a Purdue forum. Do you see the irony/hypocrisy in your statements yet?
Why do you continue to respond to him then? Clearly he is under your skin if you continually respond to him, and not only do you continually respond to him, you have to remind him that this is a Purdue board. You don't think he gets that by now? I've only posted for a couple of days but have read Cheeseman for some time and he is by far and away the most objective IU fan who posts here and he's objective on just about everything else, Purdue included. Just because this is a Purdue board doesn't give Purdue fans the right to throw outlandish claims out there with the excuse that it's a "Purdue" board.
Read a few posts up. Here we have a Purdue fan trying to make a ridiculous claim that Michigan State and Indiana shouldn't get credit for putting guys like JJJ, Zeller, Thomas Bryant, etc into the league. If the script was flipped and Zeller and JJJ ended up at Purdue and someone tried to stake a claim that Painter or Purdue didn't deserve credit for sending those guys to the NBA this board would lose their minds. We lose our minds as is when other people say Purdue doesn't deserve credit for sending Swanigan to the league because he came in as a 5* recruit. It's ridiculous. What I find ironic is that Biggie and someone like Thomas Bryant were the same high school class with Biggie being ranked higher yet both got drafted and somehow IU doesn't get credit for sending him to the league. Now how does that work?
I understand this is a Purdue board and the majority of people on here are here to discuss Purdue and Purdue related things but at least try to have some kind of objectivity. Right? Saying something like IU doesn't deserve credit for putting Zeller in the league is as ridiculous as someone from another school saying Purdue and Painter getting no credit for putting Swanigan in the league.
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I'm going to try this again. There are plenty of players that have those stats and will not get drafted...let alone a lottery. It was not his stats...it was his potential. He was acclaimed to be a lottery BEFORE he went to MSU. MSU had about as much to do with him being drafted so high as the IU development of the BIGs listed. The mere mention of what he could do by WATCHING him play over rides any inclination to use his stats as the measure. I would much rather talk actual baseketball than hypothetical propositions. I just thought it was a bit humorous to suggest that the bigs from IU were the result of development rather than their NBA interest before playing their first game. If you feel different that is fine...
Oladipo did develop...Oladipo was NOT a big. OG was drafted on athletic ability or protential more than a great college player
...and mostly with people having a couple of dozen posts. It is okay...to each... his or her own...Me reading this thread
Obviously Oladipo wasn't a guard. Every player drafted in the NBA is drafted in their potential. To suggest OG didnt improve his stock while at IU is completely wrong.
To get back on topic, it's my opinion that Purdue is no better at developing big men than say a MSU, or an IU. If that were the case, elite big men would be lining up to play for Painter. As it stands, he has landed 1 top 50 Big in the last 10 years.
And we'll try it this way, if IU had nothing to do with Thomas Bryant getting drafted then I don't want to hear any Purdue fans saying Purdue or Painter had anything to do with Swanigan being drafted. If you think someone like Thomas Bryant had more NBA interest over Caleb Swanigan before they played a single game in college then you can't make that claim. If you think Cody Zeller was a top 5 NBA pick before he played a single college game then we can't have this discussion. If you think either of those players went to IU and nothing in the two years they spent there had anything to do with their development or their draft position then you can't lay that claim with Biggie.
If you can come on here and say that I'll drop this. But you will never say that Purdue or Painter didn't assist in the development of Biggie because that wouldn't fit the narrative you're pushing here with the IU bigs.
Bryant, Zeller, Vonleh were all top 20 recruits and should have potential of making it in the NBA. Painter has had 1 top 20 recruit and he made the first round. JJ wasn't a top 20 recruit but was a first rounder. I think with the way he has shifted his recruiting towards more athletic bigs will determine how this folds out. Just like IU under Crean wings and guards were the focal point for their offense.
Being a top 20 recruit doesn’t guarantee anything. I’d agree with most that Zeller, Vonleh, and Bryant had NBA intangibles and legit pro aspirations coming out of high school, but it’s absolutely mindless to suggest neither of them developed at IU or IU didn’t help them improve their NBA draft stock.
Did anybody actually watch Cody Zeller at IU. The way he was used from his freshman year to sophomore year is the reason why he was a top 5 pick. Zeller as a freshman almost exclusively played and scored his points on the block and in transition. As a sophomore he was in multiple pick and roll sets and played and generated offense at the elbow/top of the key. Zeller as a sophomore had a decent 15-17 foot mid-range shot. He could face up his opponent at the elbow and drive the basket. That’s development. That’s the coaching. That’s why he was the 4th pick in the draft.
Even guys like Vonleh and Bryant who were skilled coming out of HS were still utilized to improve their draft stock. It would have been easy to sit there and put Vonleh on the block and run the offense through him that way. But that didn’t suit Vonleh’s strengths nor did he project as a back to the basket NBA center. He played out on the perimeter, showcased that he had a consistent 3pt shot, you think had he gone to Purdue Painter would have played him that role? I doubt it and wouldn’t have been top 10 pick either.
Again it’s just simply egregious to suggest even the best high school players can’t get better or improve their game/draft stock while in school. There’s a huge difference between NBA potential coming into college and actually getting drafted. I think Matt Painter does a fabulous job of developing bigs and I think it’s his greatest attribute as a coach, but to discredit every school/coach who sends a top 25 recruit to the NBA is ridiculous.
The most baffling thing is why IU got rid of Crean as good of a coach as he was and how well he recruited. Its one of those things that make you go hmmmm
The results didnt match the talent that he had. Sweet 16s aren't going to keep you from getting fired at IU.
Had to be bad luck...I mean a great coach that recruits great talent? I bet it was the Sweet 16 rings that doomed him.
Crean could recruit. Crean could develop players. Crean COULDN'T coach in game. Not sure why you are being a D***.
Love song. Don’t think anybody will disagree that Crean struggled and underperformed when the games mattered, but don’t know anyone who can’t at least acknowledge he was a terrific player developer. Put a decent amount kids in the NBA at Marquette too.
Gotta understand I just started watching the game a few years ago and get confused easily, but it seems that if you get superior talent and develop them in a superior fashion (in teh game of basketball)...you just can't f'ck that up. Maybe it was his asst coaches that didn't help him? He was a nice man in spite of his oddities I'm sure. No matter what, Archie being the next in line will continue to get good recruits.
Maybe with some more understanding of the game this year I'll understand that development part without results? Seriously, it is fine if Crean was considered not only a great recruiter and a great developer of the already superior talent that fell short understanding that talent he developed enough to place them in a better position with those skills developed on offense and defense. Does ANY of this really matter?
You cant just look at Head Coach here. Ostrom and Schilling have gotten quite a few players to the NBA. Ostrom recruited the Gators that repeated as champs. Didnt 4 of them make the pros.
I think I am starting to understand. Players being drafted in a couple of years of college is the measure of development...especially if college was an extension of their existing skill sets. None of this matters because I doubt too many care about the NBA game as much as the college results. I didn't even understand Olandipo was a big and so I have a lot to learn...
I actually happen to know that you are very knowledgeable of the game from seeing your posts in the past. You hit the nail on the head for the reason Crean was fired though. He had way too good of teams to only win the big ten 2 times and only go to 3 sweet 16s.
It was you who made the ergegious statement that IU wasn’t responsible for developing their bigs. If you’re only criteria for being developed means you come in from high school ranked outside the top 30, play all 4 years, and get drafted or sign an NBA summer league deal then yeah I guess you can stake the claim Purdue is better at developing bigs. JaJuan Johnson, AJ Hammons, Caleb Swanigan, and Isaac Haas have combined to start 3 games in the NBA. But tell me again why elite bigs aren’t flocking to Painter? I like Purdue as much the next guy but it’s hard to stand by some of the ignorance displayed on here.
I didn’t even realize where I mentioned Oladipo’s name once on here???
...and since an IU trustee that knows the lady in my pic and would like her to work with him received all of Crean's IU clothing and things when he left...I believe he was a nice man. Anyway...in all of development...the limiting criteria is work ethic and athleticism...and the player controls that. Haas wasn't even getting much attention and look at his development. Nobody improves FT shooting with hands that size like him or getting to the point of being automatic in scoring with his very limited athleticism. Learning may have a ceiling, but work ethic has huge role in a lot of things. The individual controls a lot of things since a lot of drill work si the samne as coaches steal from each other all the time and there is nothing new under the sun
Well, don't stand by then. I think I'm almost convinced...give me some time because this game is so confusing. I'll sleep on it and hopefully see the light in the morning
I never said crean wasn't good guy. I actually think he is a great guy. I never said Purdue didnt develop talent well (and yes I agree, it's individual will power that determines how much development happens). Haas developed very nicely at Purdue, as have many other players.
Noah, Horford, Brewer, and Green (cup of coffee)....some forget that Speights also played on the '07 team off the bench.
Relax Steel. Cheeseman is playing it straight. I have no problem with him being an IU fan. He talks basketball and is rational. If he calls out a few homers on their stuff, so be it. However, it is a Purdue board, so some homer stuff is to be expected and tolerated.
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