The OL recruiting myth

[FirstDownB]

Just wanted to get some numbers out there because I keep reading references to poor OL recruiting.
This is in no way to imply that the OL is not a problem. I was the one talking about it over the summer being the main area that limits the win ceiling at 6 or 7 this season.
But let's try to be precise when talking about issues. This is not, strictly speaking, a recruiting problem. At least not according to the numbers and relative to recruiting other positions.

2017 (#72 class)
Avg player rating = 0.818
Avg OL rating (qty 6) = 0.808
Top OL rating = 0.830 (Stickford)

2018 (#52 class)
Avg player rating = 0.847
Avg OL rating (qty 4) = 0.849
Top OL rating = 0.861 (McKenna)

2019 (#25 class)
Avg player rating = 0.866
Avg OL rating (qty 4) = 0.843
Top OL rating = 0.857 (Jornigan)

2020 (#32 class)
Avg player rating = 0.864
Avg OL rating (qty 4) = 0.859
Top OL rating = 0.894 (Hartwig)

2021 (#76 class)
Avg player rating = 0.851
Avg OL rating (qty 4) = 0.851
Top OL rating = 0.855 (Alstott)


As the numbers show, the OL recruiting has been basically on par with the overall recruiting. The staff has signed between 4-6 guys each year, plus some transfers.

There have been linemen in each class that were rated above players that are currently starting at other positions.
2017: All of the OL recruits were above O'Connell and Horvath
2018: McKenna and Bramel were above Trice, Alexander, Sullivan. Miller was above Johnson, Deen, and Durham.
2019: Jornigan was over Miller and Allen.
2020: Hartwig was over all but a few guys

In short, the recruiting was plenty good enough, on paper, to have a serviceable offensive line by 2021.

What this doesn't prove is whether the ratings of our OL recruits were collectively off or whether, more likely, there is a development issue at the OL position.
Keeping guys healthy and getting them much better as juniors and seniors than they were when they walked in a freshmen are the only two issues we should be talking about in regards to the offensive line. I am not going to tell you what combination of coaching, strength & conditioning, and just bad luck with health that is because I don't know. If you read my other posts I have my eyes on S&C.

But it is absolutely NOT a glaring hole in recruiting.

 

[ptbo]

O line coaching. And or strength and conditioning. I am so sick of seeing our O line get pushed around.

 

[jageh345]

Just wanted to get some numbers out there because I keep reading references to poor OL recruiting.
This is in no way to imply that the OL is not a problem. I was the one talking about it over the summer being the main area that limits the win ceiling at 6 or 7 this season.
But let's try to be precise when talking about issues. This is not, strictly speaking, a recruiting problem. At least not according to the numbers and relative to recruiting other positions.

2017 (#72 class)
Avg player rating = 0.818
Avg OL rating (qty 6) = 0.808
Top OL rating = 0.830 (Stickford)

2018 (#52 class)
Avg player rating = 0.847
Avg OL rating (qty 4) = 0.849
Top OL rating = 0.861 (McKenna)

2019 (#25 class)
Avg player rating = 0.866
Avg OL rating (qty 4) = 0.843
Top OL rating = 0.857 (Jornigan)

2020 (#32 class)
Avg player rating = 0.864
Avg OL rating (qty 4) = 0.859
Top OL rating = 0.894 (Hartwig)

2021 (#76 class)
Avg player rating = 0.851
Avg OL rating (qty 4) = 0.851
Top OL rating = 0.855 (Alstott)


As the numbers show, the OL recruiting has been basically on par with the overall recruiting. The staff has signed between 4-6 guys each year, plus some transfers.

There have been linemen in each class that were rated above players that are currently starting at other positions.
2017: All of the OL recruits were above O'Connell and Horvath
2018: McKenna and Bramel were above Trice, Alexander, Sullivan. Miller was above Johnson, Deen, and Durham.
2019: Jornigan was over Miller and Allen.
2020: Hartwig was over all but a few guys

In short, the recruiting was plenty good enough, on paper, to have a serviceable offensive line by 2021.

What this doesn't prove is whether the ratings of our OL recruits were collectively off or whether, more likely, there is a development issue at the OL position.
Keeping guys healthy and getting them much better as juniors and seniors than they were when they walked in a freshmen are the only two issues we should be talking about in regards to the offensive line. I am not going to tell you what combination of coaching, strength & conditioning, and just bad luck with health that is because I don't know. If you read my other posts I have my eyes on S&C.

But it is absolutely NOT a glaring hole in recruiting.

I guess your point has to be that these guys are not being developed .

 

[ehuffma1]

Good analysis. Some of these guys have been a "miss" for one reason or another. Injuries have been a huge factor. Most of our guys when they get to be seniors seem to be able to compete. Too often we've been playing younger guys who just don't seem to have the strength to compete.

 

[FirstDownB]

I guess your point has to be that these guys are not being developed .

That’s the most obvious conclusion

 

[BCfanatic2020]

Just wanted to get some numbers out there because I keep reading references to poor OL recruiting.
This is in no way to imply that the OL is not a problem. I was the one talking about it over the summer being the main area that limits the win ceiling at 6 or 7 this season.
But let's try to be precise when talking about issues. This is not, strictly speaking, a recruiting problem. At least not according to the numbers and relative to recruiting other positions.

2017 (#72 class)
Avg player rating = 0.818
Avg OL rating (qty 6) = 0.808
Top OL rating = 0.830 (Stickford)

2018 (#52 class)
Avg player rating = 0.847
Avg OL rating (qty 4) = 0.849
Top OL rating = 0.861 (McKenna)

2019 (#25 class)
Avg player rating = 0.866
Avg OL rating (qty 4) = 0.843
Top OL rating = 0.857 (Jornigan)

2020 (#32 class)
Avg player rating = 0.864
Avg OL rating (qty 4) = 0.859
Top OL rating = 0.894 (Hartwig)

2021 (#76 class)
Avg player rating = 0.851
Avg OL rating (qty 4) = 0.851
Top OL rating = 0.855 (Alstott)


As the numbers show, the OL recruiting has been basically on par with the overall recruiting. The staff has signed between 4-6 guys each year, plus some transfers.

There have been linemen in each class that were rated above players that are currently starting at other positions.
2017: All of the OL recruits were above O'Connell and Horvath
2018: McKenna and Bramel were above Trice, Alexander, Sullivan. Miller was above Johnson, Deen, and Durham.
2019: Jornigan was over Miller and Allen.
2020: Hartwig was over all but a few guys

In short, the recruiting was plenty good enough, on paper, to have a serviceable offensive line by 2021.

What this doesn't prove is whether the ratings of our OL recruits were collectively off or whether, more likely, there is a development issue at the OL position.
Keeping guys healthy and getting them much better as juniors and seniors than they were when they walked in a freshmen are the only two issues we should be talking about in regards to the offensive line. I am not going to tell you what combination of coaching, strength & conditioning, and just bad luck with health that is because I don't know. If you read my other posts I have my eyes on S&C.

But it is absolutely NOT a glaring hole in recruiting.

I’ll shorten this for you..

Recruiting is only part of player personnel.

 

[purduepat1969]

Just wanted to get some numbers out there because I keep reading references to poor OL recruiting.
This is in no way to imply that the OL is not a problem. I was the one talking about it over the summer being the main area that limits the win ceiling at 6 or 7 this season.
But let's try to be precise when talking about issues. This is not, strictly speaking, a recruiting problem. At least not according to the numbers and relative to recruiting other positions.

2017 (#72 class)
Avg player rating = 0.818
Avg OL rating (qty 6) = 0.808
Top OL rating = 0.830 (Stickford)

2018 (#52 class)
Avg player rating = 0.847
Avg OL rating (qty 4) = 0.849
Top OL rating = 0.861 (McKenna)

2019 (#25 class)
Avg player rating = 0.866
Avg OL rating (qty 4) = 0.843
Top OL rating = 0.857 (Jornigan)

2020 (#32 class)
Avg player rating = 0.864
Avg OL rating (qty 4) = 0.859
Top OL rating = 0.894 (Hartwig)

2021 (#76 class)
Avg player rating = 0.851
Avg OL rating (qty 4) = 0.851
Top OL rating = 0.855 (Alstott)


As the numbers show, the OL recruiting has been basically on par with the overall recruiting. The staff has signed between 4-6 guys each year, plus some transfers.

There have been linemen in each class that were rated above players that are currently starting at other positions.
2017: All of the OL recruits were above O'Connell and Horvath
2018: McKenna and Bramel were above Trice, Alexander, Sullivan. Miller was above Johnson, Deen, and Durham.
2019: Jornigan was over Miller and Allen.
2020: Hartwig was over all but a few guys

In short, the recruiting was plenty good enough, on paper, to have a serviceable offensive line by 2021.

What this doesn't prove is whether the ratings of our OL recruits were collectively off or whether, more likely, there is a development issue at the OL position.
Keeping guys healthy and getting them much better as juniors and seniors than they were when they walked in a freshmen are the only two issues we should be talking about in regards to the offensive line. I am not going to tell you what combination of coaching, strength & conditioning, and just bad luck with health that is because I don't know. If you read my other posts I have my eyes on S&C.

But it is absolutely NOT a glaring hole in recruiting.

This is why I've been saying there is absolutely no reason why the OL should be this bad. It isn't a mystery. This problem has been there since Williams took over with Brohm. It's clearly time to move on to someone else in the OL coaching role that can teach these kids how to run block.

 

[FirstDownB]

I’ll shorten this for you..

Recruiting is only part of player personnel.

Thanks. I’m often under the impression that structured points and supporting data are helpful to get one’s point across. And that, by providing the bases for my position, others are welcome to offer their own conclusions. But some folks are more interested in the punch line.

 

[BCfanatic2020]

Thanks. I’m often under the impression that structured points and supporting data are helpful to get one’s point across. And that, by providing the bases for my position, others are welcome to offer their own conclusions. But some folks are more interested in the punch line.

Sometimes the former is the way, sometimes it’s as simple as “player development hasn’t happened.”

and I feel terrible. Imagine you’re not only George or David, but quite a few other guys who are playing well enough for this team to be a 8-4 team or better. And you won’t be, because some people can’t do what they’re supposed to do, and by that I mean just develop a line that’s 2018 quality in the five years you have.

to the “oh but all the medical retirements” crowd:

1) how was Witt the only incoming transfer.. the f
2) if that answered it, and this guy was worth having on staff, then yes.. you’d lose some to medical retirement, but other guys would be really good to balance it out.

I feel bad for bell and George and Marvin grant and all the guys who had options but were negatively recruited with “don’t go there.. you can play 9-3 football and end up 5-7 cause you’ll be on a team with so and so.”

and when I say that, the 2018 line wasn’t even that good. It’s not like it was the 03 or 00 line. They were just alright. They could open a hole for DJ Knox against Ohio state. It shouldn’t be a hard standard to live up to.

 

[SDBoiler1]

This is why I've been saying there is absolutely no reason why the OL should be this bad. It isn't a mystery. This problem has been there since Williams took over with Brohm. It's clearly time to move on to someone else in the OL coaching role that can teach these kids how to run block.

This assertion is offbase. In essence Neil Callaway is the OL Coach now, not Dale Williams. Williams handles the TEs.

 

[BCfanatic2020]

This assertion is offbase. In essence Neil Callaway is the OL Coach now, not Dale Williams. Williams handles the TEs.

If you’re brohm you need to fix everything this off-season. You need at least one, probably two transfers who are better than Witt and long .. and then for Hartwig and holstege to get a lot better.

brohm kept Williams around too long. His immediate future success depends on two things..

1. Fix this
2. When George is gone next year who provides a pass rush and who jumps ahead of non burst Sullivan at that spot

Answer those questions and even if it’s just Oconnell sticking around next year, next year will be cake with that schedule

 

[Level 42]

If you’re brohm you need to fix everything this off-season. You need at least one, probably two transfers who are better than Witt and long .. and then for Hartwig and holstege to get a lot better.

brohm kept Williams around too long. His immediate future success depends on two things..

1. Fix this
2. When George is gone next year who provides a pass rush and who jumps ahead of non burst Sullivan at that spot

Answer those questions and even if it’s just Oconnell sticking around next year, next year will be cake with that schedule

You know, out of all of this you are one of the few that has some sound ideas that I agree with.

We've got entirely too many people that think we're supposed to be Alabama and can't handle a loss.

I wonder what they will do if in the very unlikely event we somehow beat Iowa? My guess is they return to whatever hole they crawled out of to cry with their Les Miles dolls.

 

[BCfanatic2020]

You know, out of all of this you are one of the few that has some sound ideas that I agree with.

We've got entirely too many people that think we're supposed to be Alabama and can't handle a loss.

I wonder what they will do if in the very unlikely event we somehow beat Iowa? My guess is they return to whatever hole they crawled out of to cry with their Les Miles dolls.

Well so.. I usually am very realistic in the preseason, which makes some of your bigger homers get mad at me that I don’t predict 7-5 (because I expected some games like Saturday where yeah, we absolutely could have won, but didn’t). So I predicted 5-7.

So I EXPECTED games like Saturday. Then you have all the people who say nothing in the off-season and then when Saturday happens they hit hyperdrive, jump out from behind a bush and go 10 times more negative than me.. and I end up arguing with people like DAG10 who thinks David bell is our only good offensive player.. I’m almost waiting for one of these people to be like “is karlaftis really that good?”

I’m in between.. I don’t think brohm is that great, but I also don’t think Purdue has put itself into a. Position over the decades to DEMAND that great. I definitely don’t think brohm should be fired. He’s a C+ coach who could end up being a lot more if he can ever get a roster without a player or group of players that other coaches can attack to negate his strengths on the roster.

but yeah when you expected some games like Saturday you aren’t gonna flip out.

some of the people flipping out .. I think they watch a game like Ohio state 2018 and think “that’s who we should be.” That game was a high point. If you take that game together with the games the following two weeks.. that’s who we actually were. If you took that all in, you didn’t think we were this team that should make you feel entitled to being the next alabama …

 

[FirstDownB]

If you’re brohm you need to fix everything this off-season. You need at least one, probably two transfers who are better than Witt and long .. and then for Hartwig and holstege to get a lot better.

Absolutely need to grab a couple 'sure things' from the transfer portal. If they can get a talented P5 backup RB like James in the portal, no reason they can't get good experienced OL with the prime playing time available.

My concern for the 'Hartwig and Holstege to get a lot better' hope or Craig or Miller for that matter.. I believe it is very hard for guys who play a full season to also accomplish a lot of physical development because they are typically focused on healing up from all the wear and tear well into the offseason. This is yet another complication of playing guys early. Ideally you don't want them seeing the field until they are both mentally and physically ready. This is also why I don't write off the medical retirements as flukes but as symptoms of the issue that has been snowballing for years.

If Brohm can hit the portal big this offseason he can draw a line in the sand for preventing the next group of young linemen from being forced onto the field too early and put a stop to the cycle. I want to be here in 2023 talking about the solid junior/senior contributors from the '19 and '20 classes, and seeing the guys from the '21 class training in the wings ready to fill the holes in 2024.

 

[BCfanatic2020]

Absolutely need to grab a couple 'sure things' from the transfer portal. If they can get a talented P5 backup RB like James in the portal, no reason they can't get good experienced OL with the prime playing time available.

My concern for the 'Hartwig and Holstege to get a lot better' hope or Craig or Miller for that matter.. I believe it is very hard for guys who play a full season to also accomplish a lot of physical development because they are typically focused on healing up from all the wear and tear well into the offseason. This is yet another complication of playing guys early. Ideally you don't want them seeing the field until they are both mentally and physically ready. This is also why I don't write off the medical retirements as flukes but as symptoms of the issue that has been snowballing for years.

If Brohm can hit the portal big this offseason he can draw a line in the sand for preventing the next group of young linemen from being forced onto the field too early and put a stop to the cycle. I want to be here in 2023 talking about the solid junior/senior contributors from the '19 and '20 classes, and seeing the guys from the '21 class training in the wings ready to fill the holes in 2024.

I think they’ll be fine. Other schools manage to have guys who play develop in the off-season. Craig is the most talented lineman.. he’s just hobbled as brohm has eluded to

 

[FirstDownB]

I think they’ll be fine. Other schools manage to have guys who play develop in the off-season. Craig is the most talented lineman.. he’s just hobbled as brohm has eluded to

Case in point. A hobbled RS-sophomore lineman would ideally not be forced into action but instead healing 100% and then lifting the building every day. You don't think him playing through that affects where his body will be on Sept 3, 2022?

 

[nat100]

This assertion is offbase. In essence Neil Callaway is the OL Coach now, not Dale Williams. Williams handles the TEs.

He kinda handles the TEs.

 

[nat100]

Attrition is a big issue with the OL. Weve lost the following players to injury

Bramel
Beach
Jornigan
Garvin

Additionally, Craig still is dealing with injury but is attempting to play through it.

Strickford and McKenna retired.

That is a lot of upperclassmen to lose.

 

[BCfanatic2020]

Attrition is a big issue with the OL. Weve lost the following players to injury

Bramel
Beach
Jornigan
Garvin

Additionally, Craig still is dealing with injury but is attempting to play through it.

Strickford and McKenna retired.

That is a lot of upperclassmen to lose.

I’m not saying you’re claiming Williams was good.. but if this was only part of the story some players would still be really good.. players like Eric Miller

 

[BCfanatic2020]

Case in point. A hobbled RS-sophomore lineman would ideally not be forced into action but instead healing 100% and then lifting the building every day. You don't think him playing through that affects where his body will be on Sept 3, 2022?

So you’re saying that other schools only have good linemen if they can lift during the season? Craig got hurt. That can happen at any time

 

[nat100]

I’m not saying you’re claiming Williams was good.. but if this was only part of the story some players would still be really good.. players like Eric Miller

Its part of the story. Would Miller be playing if Bramel or Craig were healthy? Probably not. Would Holstege be playing if Jornigan were healthy? Probably not.

 

[BCfanatic2020]

Its part of the story. Would Miller be playing if Bramel or Craig were healthy? Probably not. Would Holstege be playing if Jornigan were healthy? Probably not.

If Williams was a good coach would there be zero linemen he’s had for multiple years who are good? Probably not

 

[purduepat1969]

This assertion is offbase. In essence Neil Callaway is the OL Coach now, not Dale Williams. Williams handles the TEs.

It is not "offbase". Callaway is in his first season as OL line coach. Williams was OL coach the years prior. And BTW, our TEs can't block either...

 

[nat100]

If Williams was a good coach would there be zero linemen he’s had for multiple years who are good? Probably not

Williams isnt even running the line now. Its their first year under Callaway. Williams should go IMO.

 

[FirstDownB]

So you’re saying that other schools only have good linemen if they can lift during the season? Craig got hurt. That can happen at any time

No, I am saying it is better for young lineman to have time to develop before they get into action, and then instead of continuing to get stronger and quicker they are in recovery mode. Even the ones that wer sort of ready like Hartwig and Craig would have been better off waiting.

Show me a good lineman who played early, was just ok, then transformed himself in the offseason, and I’ll show you 10 good ones who spent those first couple years developing and were physically ready from the moment they hit the field.

I’m not saying you bench these guys now, but load up on some upper class men in the portal and keep Alstott off the field next year. Break the cycle.

 

[PA Boilermakers]

I said this 3-4 years ago here and was demonized for it, but I‘m of the mindset in today’s football world that you need to recruit size/strength first for the OL, then speed… CJB has never recruited size and is on the record for valuing smaller OL recruits who he believes can move faster. The result? We see it each and every weekend in the fall when we’re not playing UCONN. Fleck was hired the same year as CJB and currently has 8 OL on the roster at or above 320 lbs. We have… none.

 

[BCfanatic2020]

Williams isnt even running the line now. Its their first year under Callaway. Williams should go IMO.

But he was.. my only point is that he sucked.. obviously I can’t say that about callaway with a straight face. Wish callaway brought the bear with him though

 

[BCfanatic2020]

No, I am saying it is better for young lineman to have time to develop before they get into action, and then instead of continuing to get stronger and quicker they are in recovery mode. Even the ones that wer sort of ready like Hartwig and Craig would have been better off waiting.

Show me a good lineman who played early, was just ok, then transformed himself in the offseason, and I’ll show you 10 good ones who spent those first couple years developing and were physically ready from the moment they hit the field.

I’m not saying you bench these guys now, but load up on some upper class men in the portal and keep Alstott off the field next year. Break the cycle.

Obviously hilstege making his debut as a redshirt junior would be better than a redshirt freshman .. but I’m not buying the argument that holstege PLAYING as a redshirt freshman and sophomore will make him WORSE than he would have been as a redshirt junior if he hadn’t played …

 

[FirstDownB]

Obviously hilstege making his debut as a redshirt junior would be better than a redshirt freshman .. but I’m not buying the argument that holstege PLAYING as a redshirt freshman and sophomore will make him WORSE than he would have been as a redshirt junior if he hadn’t played …

Well, it is certainly debatable. I prefer to discuss things that aren't entirely obvious. The starting position of this thread was to eliminate the obvious. I'm just glad we are discussing THIS point and not the trope 'why don't we ever recruit linemen like other positions'.

Debatable: Does Holstege playing as a redshirt freshman and sophomore stunt his 'growth' or make him more prone to injury? I look at the list of Bramel, McKenna, Stickford, Garvin and see a trend of guys who were fast-tracked, put there bodies out there in the trenches against stronger older dudes, and paid the price. May just be a total coincidence.. I see a degree of that with current guys who played early and are still lacking strength, agility, or playing through nicks and dings. I guess we will see how many of them are improved next year vs. how many more retire from football.

I believe you have mentioned that you have spent some time in a gym. Let me ask you this - have you ever 'over done it' in the weight room or experienced an injury that prevented you from your normal routine? If so, how did that impact your gains?

 

[YouSayPotato]

Just wanted to get some numbers out there because I keep reading references to poor OL recruiting.
This is in no way to imply that the OL is not a problem. I was the one talking about it over the summer being the main area that limits the win ceiling at 6 or 7 this season.
But let's try to be precise when talking about issues. This is not, strictly speaking, a recruiting problem. At least not according to the numbers and relative to recruiting other positions.

2017 (#72 class)
Avg player rating = 0.818
Avg OL rating (qty 6) = 0.808
Top OL rating = 0.830 (Stickford)

2018 (#52 class)
Avg player rating = 0.847
Avg OL rating (qty 4) = 0.849
Top OL rating = 0.861 (McKenna)

2019 (#25 class)
Avg player rating = 0.866
Avg OL rating (qty 4) = 0.843
Top OL rating = 0.857 (Jornigan)

2020 (#32 class)
Avg player rating = 0.864
Avg OL rating (qty 4) = 0.859
Top OL rating = 0.894 (Hartwig)

2021 (#76 class)
Avg player rating = 0.851
Avg OL rating (qty 4) = 0.851
Top OL rating = 0.855 (Alstott)


As the numbers show, the OL recruiting has been basically on par with the overall recruiting. The staff has signed between 4-6 guys each year, plus some transfers.

There have been linemen in each class that were rated above players that are currently starting at other positions.
2017: All of the OL recruits were above O'Connell and Horvath
2018: McKenna and Bramel were above Trice, Alexander, Sullivan. Miller was above Johnson, Deen, and Durham.
2019: Jornigan was over Miller and Allen.
2020: Hartwig was over all but a few guys

In short, the recruiting was plenty good enough, on paper, to have a serviceable offensive line by 2021.

What this doesn't prove is whether the ratings of our OL recruits were collectively off or whether, more likely, there is a development issue at the OL position.
Keeping guys healthy and getting them much better as juniors and seniors than they were when they walked in a freshmen are the only two issues we should be talking about in regards to the offensive line. I am not going to tell you what combination of coaching, strength & conditioning, and just bad luck with health that is because I don't know. If you read my other posts I have my eyes on S&C.

But it is absolutely NOT a glaring hole in recruiting.

You've cherry-picked the wrong metric. Here's the brutal truth . . .

2022 Purdue OL recruits, P5 offers other than Purdue: Liston 4 Precaido 0 Oben 1 Carpenter 2 Watson 0

2022 Indiana OL recruits, P5 offers other than Indiana: Moore 11 Lynch 3 Smith 17

That has been the trend for five years. Go look it up for yourself.

 

[BCfanatic2020]

Well, it is certainly debatable. I prefer to discuss things that aren't entirely obvious. The starting position of this thread was to eliminate the obvious. I'm just glad we are discussing THIS point and not the trope 'why don't we ever recruit linemen like other positions'.

Debatable: Does Holstege playing as a redshirt freshman and sophomore stunt his 'growth' or make him more prone to injury? I look at the list of Bramel, McKenna, Stickford, Garvin and see a trend of guys who were fast-tracked, put there bodies out there in the trenches against stronger older dudes, and paid the price. May just be a total coincidence.. I see a degree of that with current guys who played early and are still lacking strength, agility, or playing through nicks and dings. I guess we will see how many of them are improved next year vs. how many more retire from football.

I believe you have mentioned that you have spent some time in a gym. Let me ask you this - have you ever 'over done it' in the weight room or experienced an injury that prevented you from your normal routine? If so, how did that impact your gains?

well yeah there are so many things people say here that are just.. eh. Like you can’t have good linemen cause you aren’t in Wisconsin was one from 15 years ago…

I think it’s just coincidence here. It may also come from recruiting guys who need to gain weight to play big ten football. If your natural frame is such that youre 6’6” 300 I know it’s much more certain that you’ll be injured less, all other things equal, than if you’re 6’6” 265 naturally and then you have to gain 35 lbs. the second player will experience more burden on their ligaments and joints. Guess who Wisconsin gets and who we get?

my first lean is alarming coincidence, then SC then what you’re talking about, no offense. Just my stance.

I’ve experienced these things, but they typically only last days. I never played football beyond semi pro for a year and that was probably sub division 2 level. I actually did have to fill in at guard at 6’0” 205 One game (run of injuries within a single game) and even though I thought that that’s what death felt like I was fine the next morning. The tackle I was singled up on (why? No center help??) was obviously not Lawrence Johnson but he was 300+ and not slow.

I don’t know if any of that explains anything other than me not being very good … but you asked lol.

I think regardless we can all agree that Craig getting healthy, Hartwig and holstege gaining strength and a couple of transfers a full notch or two better than Witt and long are just what the doctor ordered

 

[FirstDownB]

You've cherry-picked the wrong metric. Here's the brutal truth . . .

2022 Purdue OL recruits, P5 offers other than Purdue: Liston 4 Precaido 0 Oben 1 Carpenter 2 Watson 0

2022 Indiana OL recruits, P5 offers other than Indiana: Moore 11 Lynch 3 Smith 17

That has been the trend for five years. Go look it up for yourself.

I don't think you understand the meaning of cherry picking. Using a widely recognized recruiting service ranking is not it. You prefer a different metric? Fine.
File your complaint in the 'generally erroneous ratings' category.

I considered this, clearly.

From the OP:
At least not according to the numbers and relative to recruiting other positions.

Also from OP:
What this doesn't prove is whether the ratings of our OL recruits were collectively off or whether, more likely, there is a development issue at the OL position.

Speaking of cherry picking.. You skip ahead to a recruiting class that isn't even in the program yet and has nothing to do with the current state of the Oline.

 

[nat100]

You've cherry-picked the wrong metric. Here's the brutal truth . . .

2022 Purdue OL recruits, P5 offers other than Purdue: Liston 4 Precaido 0 Oben 1 Carpenter 2 Watson 0

2022 Indiana OL recruits, P5 offers other than Indiana: Moore 11 Lynch 3 Smith 17

That has been the trend for five years. Go look it up for yourself.

Quit using Rivals. They dont update the offer list well

Also, There is a reason Moore ended up at IU.

 

[SDBoiler1]

well yeah there are so many things people say here that are just.. eh. Like you can’t have good linemen cause you aren’t in Wisconsin was one from 15 years ago…

I think it’s just coincidence here. It may also come from recruiting guys who need to gain weight to play big ten football. If your natural frame is such that youre 6’6” 300 I know it’s much more certain that you’ll be injured less, all other things equal, than if you’re 6’6” 265 naturally and then you have to gain 35 lbs. the second player will experience more burden on their ligaments and joints. Guess who Wisconsin gets and who we get?

my first lean is alarming coincidence, then SC then what you’re talking about, no offense. Just my stance.

I’ve experienced these things, but they typically only last days. I never played football beyond semi pro for a year and that was probably sub division 2 level. I actually did have to fill in at guard at 6’0” 205 One game (run of injuries within a single game) and even though I thought that that’s what death felt like I was fine the next morning. The tackle I was singled up on (why? No center help??) was obviously not Lawrence Johnson but he was 300+ and not slow.

I don’t know if any of that explains anything other than me not being very good … but you asked lol.

I think regardless we can all agree that Craig getting healthy, Hartwig and holstege gaining strength and a couple of transfers a full notch or two better than Witt and long are just what the doctor ordered

The coaching staff seem high on Moussa and Mbow. I’d also imagine Zach Richards will be in the mix next year.

 

[nat100]

The coaching staff seem high on Moussa and Mbow. I’d also imagine Zach Richards will be in the mix next year.

We still need to identify a solution at LT. Craig was supposed to be the guy, but cant shake injury issues.

 

[FirstDownB]

well yeah there are so many things people say here that are just.. eh. Like you can’t have good linemen cause you aren’t in Wisconsin was one from 15 years ago…

I think it’s just coincidence here. It may also come from recruiting guys who need to gain weight to play big ten football. If your natural frame is such that youre 6’6” 300 I know it’s much more certain that you’ll be injured less, all other things equal, than if you’re 6’6” 265 naturally and then you have to gain 35 lbs. the second player will experience more burden on their ligaments and joints. Guess who Wisconsin gets and who we get?

my first lean is alarming coincidence, then SC then what you’re talking about, no offense. Just my stance.

I’ve experienced these things, but they typically only last days. I never played football beyond semi pro for a year and that was probably sub division 2 level. I actually did have to fill in at guard at 6’0” 205 One game (run of injuries within a single game) and even though I thought that that’s what death felt like I was fine the next morning. The tackle I was singled up on (why? No center help??) was obviously not Lawrence Johnson but he was 300+ and not slow.

I don’t know if any of that explains anything other than me not being very good … but you asked lol.

I think regardless we can all agree that Craig getting healthy, Hartwig and holstege gaining strength and a couple of transfers a full notch or two better than Witt and long are just what the doctor ordered

Yep to that last paragraph. I would just like to see maybe 1 or 2 extra transfers brought in to push the young guys down on the depth chart. And I'm not trying to pin you or anyone down with my positions. To me this is about advancing the conversation.

I agree to your point about recruiting undersize linemen. I think that is definitely a contributor and congruent to my point of the need for extra years of development and good S&C gains prior to being game ready. I just don't know how likely it is for Brohm & Co. to go out and sign guys that are physically ready from day one vs. investing in development through a good S&C program and keeping the depth chart stocked with 21-23 year olds. With how little we run the ball I don't think our program is 'sexy' for the top OL recruits. Tiller had the same problem with recruiting linemen (more so than Colleto) and had to be creative in growing the lines.

 

[SDBoiler1]

We still need to identify a solution at LT. Craig was supposed to be the guy, but cant shake injury issues.

Agreed. I’m hoping maybe Moussa or Mbow can be that guy. Craig is good - when he can actually play.

 

[New Pal Boiler]

Williams isnt even running the line now. Its their first year under Callaway. Williams should go IMO.

 

[BCfanatic2020]

The coaching staff seem high on Moussa and Mbow. I’d also imagine Zach Richards will be in the mix next year.

I’ll take any improvement we can get

 

[BCfanatic2020]

Yep to that last paragraph. I would just like to see maybe 1 or 2 extra transfers brought in to push the young guys down on the depth chart. And I'm not trying to pin you or anyone down with my positions. To me this is about advancing the conversation.

I agree to your point about recruiting undersize linemen. I think that is definitely a contributor and congruent to my point of the need for extra years of development and good S&C gains prior to being game ready. I just don't know how likely it is for Brohm & Co. to go out and sign guys that are physically ready from day one vs. investing in development through a good S&C program and keeping the depth chart stocked with 21-23 year olds. With how little we run the ball I don't think our program is 'sexy' for the top OL recruits. Tiller had the same problem with recruiting linemen (more so than Colleto) and had to be creative in growing the lines.

No no no.. I don’t wanna be misunderstood. 6’6” 300,.. even if it’s a good 300, is not physically ready, unless we get a 6’6” 300 lb tackle of George’s caliber, which might happen once if I live to be 80.

those types of tackles who are say a realistic 5.6-5.7 STILL aren’t ready as freshmen, but instead of adding strength AND 30-45 lbs, they’re just adding strength, which is much less of a toll on ligaments and joints.

A 5.7 version of Gus hartwig, who came in with the size you need at center, is what I’m talking about. If we had brought in more guys like that, there would probably be fewer injuries and retirements.

Bramel was 270, stickford was friggin 250. I’m just not shocked.. you know? Of course both of them could have been caused by one freak event, but more often than not I think frequency of injury would be much higher than if they came in at 300