Recent Painter article

[bonefish1]

Don't remember where it was published, but read an article recently on Painter and his recruiting philosophy and getting guys who are the right fit.
Was a little surprised to read how much his focus is still on defense and that's what he says to recruits.
Now granted, I realize we're B10 champs, have a POY candidate, were one of the top offenses in the conference, etc, so Painter must be doing something right, but I wonder how much of a negative it is on recruiting for Painter to still have such a defensive minded philosophy.
Not saying defense isn't important, but just curious if some really highly skilled guys with NBA futures don't want to come to Purdue because of it?

 

[TC4THREE]

Don't remember where it was published, but read an article recently on Painter and his recruiting philosophy and getting guys who are the right fit.
Was a little surprised to read how much his focus is still on defense and that's what he says to recruits.
Now granted, I realize we're B10 champs, have a POY candidate, were one of the top offenses in the conference, etc, so Painter must be doing something right, but I wonder how much of a negative it is on recruiting for Painter to still have such a defensive minded philosophy.
Not saying defense isn't important, but just curious if some really highly skilled guys with NBA futures don't want to come to Purdue because of it?

If playing defense scares some guys off, might I suggest they are guys that we don't really want anyway?

 

[Do Dah Day]

What would your post be the day after we lost to MSU because our star offensive player couldn't make a stop all game?

 

[BoiledSteel]

Now granted, I realize we're B10 champs, have a POY candidate, were one of the top offenses in the conference, etc, so Painter must be doing something right

That is all that needs to be said. I don't get the second guessing that goes on here sometimes. He is getting good recruits, putting up good defensive and offensive numbers yet some still complain.

It boggles my mind, it really does.

 

[Boiler Buck]

Heard the Coach for South Carolina talking about the same thing yesterday on the radio.....finding guys that will play D and scrap, fit the system. All these guys can shoot and score to some degree, but they are not ranked on important things to winning....D and desire to scrap and win. That is hard to do whether it is top 40 guy or top 400.....he said they talk to parents, teammates, coaches and even the counselors about these kids. It is not just the relationship building, but finding guys that will fit your system....and your system priorities. That is why things are going well now.....Vince, CS, PJT, DM are such GREAT fits to our system and system priorities for the most part.

 

[bonefish1]

That is all that needs to be said. I don't get the second guessing that goes on here sometimes. He is getting good recruits, putting up good defensive and offensive numbers yet some still complain.

It boggles my mind, it really does.

Because Painter is a Keady disciple and Keady had a defense first mentality and coincidentally, did poorly in the NCAAs.
Painter hasn't done well in the NCAAs either, not sure if there's a correlation or not.
Plus over a 24 year career, Keady put very few guys in the pros. Over a 9 year career, Painter has only put a few.
Just sayin...

 

[IndySouthsider]

Because Painter is a Keady disciple and Keady had a defense first mentality and coincidentally, did poorly in the NCAAs.
Painter hasn't done well in the NCAAs either, not sure if there's a correlation or not.
Plus over a 24 year career, Keady put very few guys in the pros. Over a 9 year career, Painter has only put a few.
Just sayin...

Really?

How many went to the Pro league? Ever notice how many stars didn't play for big names programs?

 

[Boiler Buck]

It takes a combo of talent and guys that buy into D. Painter has that this year.

Next year and going forward we shall see. These 4 new guys we have for next year better have at least 1 starter quality guy that buys in and is a difference maker ..... or....... it gets worse for the fans going forward.

 

[TC4THREE]

Keady had a defense first mentality and coincidentally, did poorly in the NCAAs.

Yes because defense is VERY bad if you want to win in the NCAA tournament. What a moronic position to take.........

 

[bonefish1]

Really?

How many went to the Pro league? Ever notice how many stars didn't play for big names programs?

There's a reason why the blue blood programs that do well in the tourney also put a lot of guys in the NBA.

 

[bonefish1]

Yes because defense is VERY bad if you want to win in the NCAA tournament. What a moronic position to take.........

I didn't say defense was bad, but a good offense, based on better talent, will be a good defense.
Defense doesn't win championships, if it did, Purdue wouldn't be in a 37 year Final Four drought.
I'll trade a Chris Kramer or Ray Davis for a Carsen Edwards every single time.

 

[TC4THREE]

I didn't say defense was bad, but a good offense, based on better talent, will be a good defense.
Defense doesn't win championships, if it did, Purdue wouldn't be in a 37 year Final Four drought.
I'll trade a Chris Kramer or Ray Davis for a Carsen Edwards every single time.

I stand by what I just said. This line of thinking is moronic. Being good at defense doesn't mean you can't be good at offense.

 

[tjreese]

If playing defense scares some guys off, might I suggest they are guys that we don't really want anyway?

THAT would be the obvious. Production is what determines playing time. You try to score more than the other team and part of that is working to ensure they score less than you. Don't dwell on defense, but make sure that player knows that he can control how much time and how early he hits the court by playing hard and smart...even if not the most skilled.

 

[tjreese]

I didn't say defense was bad, but a good offense, based on better talent, will be a good defense.
Defense doesn't win championships, if it did, Purdue wouldn't be in a 37 year Final Four drought.
I'll trade a Chris Kramer or Ray Davis for a Carsen Edwards every single time.

I may agree with you "if" you are saying you recruit offensive abilities first (and I'm sure Matt does that ) but add the advantages and expectations that the other half of the game is important as well. I imagine that is how Matt presents it...truthful and straight forward.

 

[Boiler Buck]

Its clear Painter can teach D.....Thus, get guys that buy into you as a coach who can score and are offensive difference makers.....and things, like they did with DM, will work out fine.

 

[bonefish1]

I stand by what I just said. This line of thinking is moronic. Being good at defense doesn't mean you can't be good at offense.

And I didn't say that either. But, what I do believe is that having your reputation built on defense may hinder recruiting.
The NBA doesn't draft kids because they're great defenders (unless it's an AJ Hammons type who can protect the rim). A player can be really good offensively and decent defensively.
Why, because the offensive talent is such that it will beat defensive talent 8/10 times. There's very few, if any, defensive stoppers in the NBA, but there's lot of guys who can score 30 Pts on a given night.

I'm not saying I like NBA ball, I don't even really watch it, but the fact is, you need NBA level talent to succeed in the NCAAs.

 

[BoilerDeac]

And I didn't say that either. But, what I do believe is that having your reputation built on defense may hinder recruiting.
The NBA doesn't draft kids because they're great defenders (unless it's an AJ Hammons type who can protect the rim). A player can be really good offensively and decent defensively.
Why, because the offensive talent is such that it will beat defensive talent 8/10 times. There's very few, if any, defensive stoppers in the NBA, but there's lot of guys who can score 30 Pts on a given night.

I'm not saying I like NBA ball, I don't even really watch it, but the fact is, you need NBA level talent to succeed in the NCAAs.

+ 10000

 

[Boiler Wolf]

I believe both are required to win an NCAA championship. There was a recent thread about the NCAA champion almost always being a top 20 Kenpom offensive team, but in reality, the champion was ALWAYS a top 20 defensive team.

One could argue the lack of tourney success on a defense 1st philosophy, but I tend to believe it is/was a combination of bad luck and not having good enough players.

 

[bonefish1]

I believe both are required to win an NCAA championship. There was a recent thread about the NCAA champion almost always being a top 20 Kenpom offensive team, but in reality, the champion was ALWAYS a top 20 defensive team.

One could argue the lack of tourney success on a defense 1st philosophy, but I tend to believe it is/was a combination of bad luck and not having good enough players.

And that's my argument: The "Good Enough" players might not be giving PU enough of a look because they don't want to focus on defense because that's not what will get them to the NBA.
So, we end up with players like Kramer or Davis who are great defenders but more often than not, offensive liabilities.
Hopefully CE is the new generation of guard MP is bringing in (although I'm still pissed he's not in the starting lineup any longer).

 

[Dakota Girl]

I may agree with you "if" you are saying you recruit offensive abilities first (and I'm sure Matt does that ) but add the advantages and expectations that the other half of the game is important as well. I imagine that is how Matt presents it...truthful and straight forward.

For example, take a look at Dakota. He did not get a Purdue offer for Defense. He learned how to play it here. I think what Bone is getting at is does Matt scare off a great offensive player who could become a good defender also.
I personally feel that if they are that averse to playing D I don't want them but hey, he could have a point.

 

[Dryfly88]

As of right now we are KenPom #20 offense and #16 defense. When you look at the top teams we have a nice combination of the 2. There is only one team that is in single digits in both categories (Gonzaga).

I think (hope) the advantage we have this year over some previous years is that we can score with people when necessary. We don't have to play a perfect game of defense in order to win. It seems there is always a game in the tourney where you just need to be able to keep up with the other team and win it at the end.

To the Op's point, I don't think it scares off good offensive players but I have zero proof of that.

 

[BoiledSteel]

And that's my argument: The "Good Enough" players might not be giving PU enough of a look because they don't want to focus on defense because that's not what will get them to the NBA.

AJH was pretty good at defense with his shot blocking and is in the NBA. Personally I think that this entire thread is just another avenue to nitpick because we're winning and things are going well, until/if we lose again.

Some of you just like to complain and complain about something that apparently isn't an issue to begin with.

 

[tjreese]

For example, take a look at Dakota. He did not get a Purdue offer for Defense. He learned how to play it here. I think what Bone is getting at is does Matt scare off a great offensive player who could become a good defender also.
I personally feel that if they are that averse to playing D I don't want them but hey, he could have a point.

Oh I agree and that is why I said "IF" ...want to sugar coat it some as others are selling time to them as well

 

[ck3boilers]

Pretty simple..Do the names Anthony Johnson and Ronnie Johnson ring a bell? He recruited bad fits before by getting guys that weren't willing to do it the "Purdue way" and it bit him. He's a smart guy and learned his lesson, openly admitting it. I like that he's up front and honest about the defensive end.

 

[Dakota Girl]

Oh I agree and that is why I said "IF" ...want to sugar coat it some as others are selling time to them as well

Sorry TJ. I wasn't meaning to argue your point. I started out agreeing then switched to thoughts on other posters points in the middle and now I'm not really sure what I was talking about so...
I'd make myself my first person on my own ignore list today but I'm afraid I wouldn't be able to figure out anything I said if I did.

 

[tjreese]

Sorry TJ. I wasn't meaning to argue your point. I started out agreeing then switched to thoughts on other posters points in the middle and now I'm not really sure what I was talking about so...
I'd make myself my first person on my own ignore list today but I'm afraid I wouldn't be able to figure out anything I said if I did.

No problem. I have no problem with disagreements

 

[DG10]

If playing defense scares some guys off, might I suggest they are guys that we don't really want anyway?

Purdue has guys now that can't defend...so, the philosophy is not working from that standpoint anyway.

If Biggie is not on this team, this team is a very average team...and he did not recruit Biggie because of his ability to defend...heck, he did not even successfully recruit Biggie for that matter.

He did not recruit Robbie Hummel for his ability to defend either...yet had tremendous success with the guy on his team.

 

[TC4THREE]

Purdue has guys now that can't defend...so, the philosophy is not working from that standpoint anyway.

If Biggie is not on this team, this team is a very average team...and he did not recruit Biggie because of his ability to defend...heck, he did not even successfully recruit Biggie for that matter.

He did not recruit Robbie Hummel for his ability to defend either...yet had tremendous success with the guy on his team.

Swanigan is here so if you don't give Painter credit for the players he has then it's fairly obvious that you just don't like him.

They are all putting forth the effort to defend. No James Blackmons that I can recall. And nobody is saying that he is recruiting guys that can only defend. Obviously you want guys that can do everything. But I don't think he's going to blow smoke up their ass and tell them that they can run and gun and not worry about defending either.

 

[nagemj02]

Pretty simple..Do the names Anthony Johnson and Ronnie Johnson ring a bell? He recruited bad fits before by getting guys that weren't willing to do it the "Purdue way" and it bit him. He's a smart guy and learned his lesson, openly admitting it. I like that he's up front and honest about the defensive end.

Should "The Purdue Way" only be one certain way though, ck3? Painter has to adjust his teams' style according to the personnel he has (i.e. shouldn't put square pegs in round holes). What is everything that encompasses "The Purdue Way"? What is your definition of it and how does "The Purdue Way" differentiate between Purdue and other good or great college hoops programs?

 

[BoilerDeac]

Should "The Purdue Way" only be one certain way though, ck3? Painter has to adjust his teams' style according to the personnel he has (i.e. shouldn't put square pegs in round holes). What is everything that encompasses "The Purdue Way"? What is your definition of it and how does "The Purdue Way" differentiate between Purdue and other good or great college hoops programs?

What is the "Purdue way?" Whatever it is, it hasn't resulted in a Final 4 in 37 years.

Maybe we can find a better way?

 

[tjreese]

What is the "Purdue way?" Whatever it is, it hasn't resulted in a Final 4 in 37 years.

Maybe we can find a better way?

Here is the Butler way...although I think it goes back a LOOOOOONG time before credited
The Butler Way...
demands commitment, denies selfishness,
accepts reality, yet seeks improvement everyday
while putting the team above self.

Goals for Butler Athletics

• Exceptional Student/Athlete Experiences

• Successful Teams

• Source of unity and pride for students, faculty, staff, alumni and friends of Butler

• Fiscal Sustainability

 

[*4purdue*]

Yes because defense is VERY bad if you want to win in the NCAA tournament. What a moronic position to take.........

While I think you need kids that play defense, the rule changes have made it more and more difficult...it's become an offensive game and you better have guys that can score.

 

[New Pal Boiler]

And I didn't say that either. But, what I do believe is that having your reputation built on defense may hinder recruiting.
The NBA doesn't draft kids because they're great defenders (unless it's an AJ Hammons type who can protect the rim). A player can be really good offensively and decent defensively.
Why, because the offensive talent is such that it will beat defensive talent 8/10 times. There's very few, if any, defensive stoppers in the NBA, but there's lot of guys who can score 30 Pts on a given night.

I'm not saying I like NBA ball, I don't even really watch it, but the fact is, you need NBA level talent to succeed in the NCAAs.

I have to disagree with your characterization of NBA defense. Sit in the first 12-15 rows at an NBA game and you'll see how hard it is to get a single shot off. All the starting 2 guards are 6'-7"+, quick, strong, and have 7' wingspans.

There are guys getting paid $15 million per year who just play great defense and drain spot-up 3s.

 

[lbodel]

Should "The Purdue Way" only be one certain way though, ck3? Painter has to adjust his teams' style according to the personnel he has (i.e. shouldn't put square pegs in round holes). What is everything that encompasses "The Purdue Way"? What is your definition of it and how does "The Purdue Way" differentiate between Purdue and other good or great college hoops programs?

I'm sorry, but if you can't tell that we haven't adjusted our style over the years, you need to get your damn eyes checked.

Early in Painter's career, people complained we never had size and Purdue always plays undersized, we can't rebound, etc. Now Painter has recruited and developed Hammons, Swanigan and Haas and Purdue's been one of the best rebounding teams in the Big Ten.

Last year, people complained we had no three point shooters and we can't hit outside shots. We're a pretty darn good 3 point shooting team right?

Over the last few years, people complained we're too defensively focused and we don't spend enough time practicing offense. We have the best offense in the Big Ten.

Yes, we know you hate Painter. But you're being the Kellyanne Conway of GBI right now.

 

[lbodel]

Don't remember where it was published, but read an article recently on Painter and his recruiting philosophy and getting guys who are the right fit.
Was a little surprised to read how much his focus is still on defense and that's what he says to recruits.
Now granted, I realize we're B10 champs, have a POY candidate, were one of the top offenses in the conference, etc, so Painter must be doing something right, but I wonder how much of a negative it is on recruiting for Painter to still have such a defensive minded philosophy.
Not saying defense isn't important, but just curious if some really highly skilled guys with NBA futures don't want to come to Purdue because of it?

Out here in DC, you get a lot of chatter about Maryland and Georgetown. Georgetown is in a tricky situation - the funny thing is the couple fans I know complain they don't have enough talent. Their last few classes have included 4 Top 50 players and 2 top 100 players. And they haven't made the tournament in 3 years?

Recruiting the right fit is a big deal.

 

[tjreese]

While I think you need kids that play defense, the rule changes have made it more and more difficult...it's become an offensive game and you better have guys that can score.

It would be Purdue's luck that they would get players only wanting to play O and the refs would start allowing more physical D...

 

[cgnops]

Carsen Edwards was recruited based on his defensive ability? Ray Davis was a scorer in high school and was not expected to be a great defender. Not sure 'Painter only recruits defensive minded players' has any credibility. My interpretation of what he says is that he is looking to recruit as many 'team first' players as possible after the sauce incident.

 

[TC4THREE]

I just want us to recruit hard working, competitive players who want to win first and foremost whether their skills be slanted towards either offense or defense.

 

[BoilerStation]

I have to disagree with your characterization of NBA defense. Sit in the first 12-15 rows at an NBA game and you'll see how hard it is to get a single shot off. All the starting 2 guards are 6'-7"+, quick, strong, and have 7' wingspans.

There are guys getting paid $15 million per year who just play great defense and drain spot-up 3s.

Exactly. The old saying that nobody plays defense in the NBA is just wrong. The offensive skill level in the NBA is flat out insane and makes some guys look like they aren't playing defense when in reality there are so many guys on offense who are just that good. The NBA plays 82 games compared to a college maxing at maybe 40 if you go all the way. That's double the amount of games then throw in 20 playoff games. A single NBA game doesn't mean as much as a single college basketball game does in relevance to the season which is why you may see instances of very poor defense. . Watch playoff basketball if you want to see what real defense is against and by the best athletes on the planet.

 

[BoilerDeac]

I have to disagree with your characterization of NBA defense. Sit in the first 12-15 rows at an NBA game and you'll see how hard it is to get a single shot off. All the starting 2 guards are 6'-7"+, quick, strong, and have 7' wingspans.

There are guys getting paid $15 million per year who just play great defense and drain spot-up 3s.

Couldn't agree more. These guys in the NBA are all so talented, even the role players can typically get their own shot, if necessary.

I mean, look at E'Twaun...we all saw how amazing he was at Purdue, and he's just a role player in the NBA (although a very good one). It's not easy to stop guys in the NBA.

Defense is SO important and necessary, but good offense usually beats good defense.