Question for any anti-vaxxers
- Thread starter Nbergbuck
- Start date
Well first one has to ask themselves if there is even a virus at all. So how do you do that? Well by isolating it and then creating a test from that isolation to see if symptomatic people have the illness. So have fun researching Koch’s Postulates or River’s Postulates and “COVID-19.” Your life is about to change!
No it isn’t. They made a choice. Life choices have consequences. That’s a staple of conservatism: individual accountability for life decisions. And it is on display here. Kudos to them for standing on principle. It’s a stupid principle in this case, but kudos anyway. Freedom to choose. America.
I and my entire family is vaxed. However, I know a person who is pregnant that did not want to be vaxed during pregnancy or before pregnancy. Not sure research shows long term effects there? I also know a few people that are claiming natural immunity. Science backs their claim. So I am ok for those 2 situations.
Here is another thought....
I also wonder why Dem Government is saying to Americans in Government & Health workers - you Must get vaxed or be fired........Yet at the border the same Dem Government is NOT requiring vaxing for what will be nearly 1-2 Million illegals they are proccessing letting through to all points in America??
Individual accountability is not the same as Federal or mandated state accountability. The individual accountability is accepting the risk of the Virus by not getting vaccinated. Which does include taking precautions individually, not just living carefree and thinking the virus doesnt exist.
The accountability that we see right now is, "get this vaccine or lose your job" and that to me is insane.
I am vaccinated, i looked at massive amounts of data and research and decided that it was best for me and that getting the vaccine was the best way to get back to normal.
I think everyone should get vaccinated, but at the same time there are circumstances where someone shouldn't get vaccinated. For one, if anyone has Gullian-Barre syndrome, they are not recommended to get it. There's lots of other blood related disorders and pre-existing conditions where people would be at risk from the vaccine.
The other reason is Natural Immunity. My Aunt and Uncle got Covid right before Christmas last year and many studies have shown that antibodies from previous infection are stronger and more long lasting than what vaccinations provide. They will not get vaccinated and thats ok.
I got 1 shot and am still having major side effects a month later.
Ive had covid 2x and never had symptoms.
I had Covid & had reaction with my first shot where I got sick real for 2 days. Second shot fine...no problem at all. Guess that was first shot reacting with my natural immunity??? Dont know. Anyway, wish now I would have put off my first shot due to natural immunity....but my daughter in health care put pressure on me to get vaxed. Water under the bridge now.
Anyway sorry you had problems.
So what’s next? If they find out you had an abortion one could lose their job? If you eat fast food during lunch hour a few times a week making one fat could cause hospitals to be overrun with obesity; so fire them. Don’t hire a smoker, but weed is ok? My family has all been vaccinated, but I see the other side. If someone chooses not to so be it. Forcing people to do something against their belief violates their freedom. Burning the American flag in public is acceptable, but not getting vaccinated is not.
People get fired for getting pregnant, smoking, and even dumber shit all the time, dude.
Yes, freedom of choice is basic to the country. Here is the problem with that. We were turning the corner on covid and then 2 things happened. Many people refused to get vaccinated and the highly contagious mutation (delta) arose and spread. Now hospitals are overrun etc. etc. I have a good friend who is a practicing ER doc and sees covid all the time. He is worried that the virus mutates into a form that is contagious and vaccine resistant. Then we are really F'd because the unvaccinated let the virus hang around. At some point group welfare has to trump individual choice.
If that is what an employer wants to do, they can have at it. Employment isn’t a right. Choices have consequences.
While this is a basic tenet of literally every society ever, don’t get pulled into the trap of thinking that these people and others don’t have a choice. Employment isn’t a right.
Many of these people complaining want freedom to choose free from potential negative consequences, and that is childish - it’s what my five year old wants.
The problem with these examples is the lack of potential impact on other people. Getting an abortion doesn’t endanger your coworkers, nor does eating fast food, or smoking (unless actually done at the office). These situations are not analogous to infectious diseases.
i am growing concerned if additional shots might be required/encouraged in perpetuity, as i became quite ill as well.
what might they consider as the threshold of intentional, acceptable illness to have to go through again.
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Well the abortion killed the baby, while the virus supposedly won’t if one has been vaccinated. The baby dying is pretty impactful if you ask me. If people choose not to get vaccinated, that’s their choice and it doesn’t bother me since I’ve been vaccinated.
Abortion "killing the baby," still has no bearing on endangering other people in the workplace. So, use that argument to advocate for making abortion illegal, not to advocate for firing someone who has one.
You can still get sick and die even vaccinated, low as the probability may be that that happens. But, as we all know, there are people who CANNOT be vaccinated. The fundamental difference in our position seems to be that you are only concerned for your own safety ("I'm vaccinated, so why do I care if other people are?") and I am concerned with the safety of as many people as possible. If someone dies because they made the choice not to get vaccinated, that's a tragedy, but it is, indeed, their own fault. If someone who CANNOT be vaccinated dies because someone ELSE made the choice not to get vaccinated, that's a much bigger problem. I have no issue with the government or businesses taking steps to prevent that from happening, especially when the most effective preventative step has no significant risk and is freely available.
My point stands that the examples you provided do not endanger the employees, customers, clients, etc. of a business or other workplace. Not getting vaccinated does. We could argue about how much of a risk is worth mandating a preventative measure, that's fine. Maybe COVID's risk isn't high enough to justify it, that's a reasonable position someone could take, but your examples are not an equivalent situation, so the fact that we do a different thing in those situations is not relevant.
Like I mentioned...Zero issues with shot #2. That said I doubt I get a 3rd booster. Between natural immunity and 2 shots I should be good??
But everyone is different so discussion with your doctor and other medical personnel you know will be the best way to answer your question.
You may be right time will tell. My position is believing if everyone gets vaccinated covid will still exist. People will still die and the virus will still passed person to person. This vaccine is basically a flu shot as it looks like people will have to continually get boosters. The flu has been around for decades people die from it yet it’s not mandated by employers for employees to get the flu shot. Covid is worse, but the flu kills people every year too. Will people be forced to get a flu shot to maintain employment be the next thing?
So, evidently, the risk threshold for mandates is somewhere between the risk from flu and the risk from COVID. Determining an appropriate risk threshold is a useful conversation (and it could be argued that threshold is currently too low, if COVID falls above it), but the anti-mandate sentiment seems to mostly be based on the liberty and freedom argument rather than on an honest assessment of risk to public health. Surely, if there were a hypothetical disease with a 50% mortality rate and the same transmissibility as COVID, very few people would be against mandating a vaccine to that disease.
It should also be noted that:
1. The COVID vaccines, at least so far, barring the development of new variants, are far more effective than the flu vaccine.
2. Relatively few people actually GET the flu vaccine, so of course it hangs around, mostly in those who don't get the shot. I'll admit, I haven't been getting flu shots because I never had reason to believe the flu would affect me in any serious way and I had never been prompted to think seriously about my potential impact on other people who might be at higher risk than I. In the last year and half, I HAVE been prompted to think about my potential impact on others' health and have revised my worldview accordingly. I'll be getting annual flu shots moving forward.
So, given those two things, it's easier for the flu to stay around. Not saying COVID can be eradicated, but it would seem there's a better chance of that than eradicating flu.
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Yup, don't get the polio, DPT or tetanus vaccines. There are side effects to those! If you get bit by an animal that is suspected to be rabid, DO NOT get vaccinated. I understand! Perfectly clear to me and very rational.
The yellow fever vaccine, which I got six times on active duty, once made me vomit blood, gave me chills and feel generally awful for 25 hours. But I got it anyway because I go places where mosquitoes transmit yellow fever, and it was compulsory to my employment.
I kinda have to laugh at people afraid to get a Covid vaccine because they might get the sniffles and be tired for a day, which is what 99.99% of people who get side effects actually experience.
Even though the actual risk of transmission was extremely low, I still had to get it in spite of the side effects. this freedom of choice for employees is a settled argument.
I don't understand why we keep sending hundreds of thousands of untested illegals into the US.
I'm sure there are mutations in these foreign countries US citizens weren't previously exposed to.
You better start planning on pushing back because they are not going to ever ****ing stop with this shit. This is a gateway to the chinese social creidt system, where you must e injected regularly to be allowed to live a life that is anything close to what we previously enjoyed.
You were in the ARMY....your are signing up to be cannon fodder....that has nothing to do with civilian life.
I've had vertigo and insomnia for 6 weeks since getting the shot. I've had covid 2x and never even coughed.
Joe Biden has been vaccinated three times. Look at the side effects it’s done to his mind.
I was in the Navy. No one forced a needle into your arm as a civilian, either.
I call bullshit on your symptoms. Psychosomatic.
Obese people cost everyone to pay more in health insurance. Should we not allow obese people to eat unhealthy food? Should we require they exercise 60 minutes a day?
Obesity kills many many many more people than Covid ever will. Yet there is very little interest in doing anything about that. If I remember Michelle Obama did some work in educating on that area as First Lady. But it's largely an issue that gets ignored by our politicians and why Fauci and CDC aren't talking about it often is beyond me. It's a leading indicator for a bad outcome from covid.
Than thinking you’re a liar because it supports your deeply held and personally valuable political viewpoints? I mean your history here suggests that you would do exactly that. Good luck overcoming your “hardship”.
Higher insurance costs ≠ sickness or death. The argument you're basically making is "it's ok for obese people to cause my insurance rates to go up, therefore it should be ok for unvaccinated people to endanger the lives of others," as if allowing one and not allowing another is some sort of logical inconsistency. Since the two things are different, it is not inconsistent to allow obese people to exist but also to try to protect people from infectious diseases.
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The obsesity problem has a big impact on the quality of others people's lives. It's one of the primary reasons insurance costs are so high. I notice you edited out the part about people not being able to afford insurance. What are among the reasons people can't afford insurance? Yep you guessed it, because as a nation we have an obesity problem, that drives insurance costs up. People get less preventive care, and as you say that leads to problems (even death sometimes)
How about Flu shots, that prevents some deaths. Why haven't we mandated those over the years?
I am vaccinated, and was an easy decision for me. I also believe the vaccines provide good protection. Also believe each individual in consultation with their Dr (if they so choose ), should be able to make their own decision. We also have a big group of unvaccinated that have already had Covid. The science has shown their natural immunity is as good or better than those vaccinated. Why in the heck would you ignore that, and force that group to get vaccine.
Yes, I decided I didn't want to get into a discussion about the healthcare system at large. Your claim that costs are high because of obese people probably needs some support, but I'd argue the fact that the insurance industry operates for profit is a much larger reason. Anyway, not looking to go down this road today.
Already addressed this: risk threshold. It has been determined (rightly or wrongly, and worthy of discussion) that the risk threshold of Covid is high enough to warrant a mandate whereas the risk threshold of flu is not.
And people can still make their own decision. Largely, the mandate offers regular testing as an alternative to vaccination. Regarding natural immunity, you're right. But I think, logistically, it's easier to just say get vaccinated regardless since it's free, there's basically no risk, and it's easy to keep track of who has been vaccinated. Probably worth talking about that. Maybe a switch to an "immunity" card that covers both vaccinated and recovered individuals? Of course, given that the cards are easy to fake, a better system would be welcome. I don't know, something for people smarter and more knowledgable than me to figure out.
How much support do you need? And I said it was a primary reason (never said anything about it being the only reason health care costs are high).
Three Ways Obesity Contributes to Heart Disease - Penn Medicine
Learn how obesity contributes to heart disease – and what you can do to combat both!
www.pennmedicine.org
I mean, I understand that obesity increases heart disease risk and risk of death from COVID. But, you claimed that obesity leads to higher insurance prices which leads to people not being able to afford insurance. Your links don't speak to anything about the effect of America's obesity rate on its health insurance prices. I suppose it's probably inarguable that if there were no obese people, there would be many fewer instances of people needing treatment for heart disease, therefore insurance prices could be lower. That's still a long way from obesity being the reason people can't afford health insurance. It would appear that obesity results in about 20% of our healthcare spending (note that healthcare spending is different than insurance cost). So, at most, insurance rates could drop 20% if obesity were eliminated. Given what insurance rates are now, that still leaves a lot of people unable to afford it.How much support do you need? And I said it was a primary reason (never said anything about it being the only reason health care costs are high).
Three Ways Obesity Contributes to Heart Disease - Penn Medicine
Learn how obesity contributes to heart disease – and what you can do to combat both!www.pennmedicine.org
Linking Obesity and Health Care
Emilie Openchowski explains how the rising rate of obesity in America will increase the cost of health care for all of us and why we should care about reversing the overweight trend with new public policies.
www.americanprogress.org
Anyway, I'll stipulate that you and I don't agree on how best to provide health coverage to people. As I said, that's not a road I'm interested in going down today. I'll stand by my point, though, that just because we have a system in which someone else's lifestyle can potentially cost you money (indirectly, I might add), that doesn't mean we're logically inconsistent when we try to prevent someone else's lifestyle from costing you your life (directly OR indirectly).
I'm gonna hop out of the discussion now, as I believe my points are clear. I think a conversation about determining the appropriate risk threshold for a vaccine mandate would be useful, but I don't have any relevant knowledge or experience to contribute to that conversation. That's for doctors and folks with expertise in public health to figure out, but I will offer this for context:
Case fatality rate of some diseases with vaccine mandates (other numbers besides CFR, like transmissibility, may be useful to consider here, too):
So, the CFR of COVID is in line with other diseases for which we have vaccine mandates. I don't know what the public health consensus is (or if there even is one) on what risk threshold warrants a mandate, but that's the conversation to have. Simply arguing "FREEDOM!" doesn't cut it unless you are also going to advocate we get rid of these other vaccine mandates.
Can you break down the Covid fatality rate for children and teens?I mean, I understand that obesity increases heart disease risk and risk of death from COVID. But, you claimed that obesity leads to higher insurance prices which leads to people not being able to afford insurance. Your links don't speak to anything about the effect of America's obesity rate on its health insurance prices. I suppose it's probably inarguable that if there were no obese people, there would be many fewer instances of people needing treatment for heart disease, therefore insurance prices could be lower. That's still a long way from obesity being the reason people can't afford health insurance. It would appear that obesity results in about 20% of our healthcare spending (note that healthcare spending is different than insurance cost). So, at most, insurance rates could drop 20% if obesity were eliminated. Given what insurance rates are now, that still leaves a lot of people unable to afford it.
Linking Obesity and Health Care
Emilie Openchowski explains how the rising rate of obesity in America will increase the cost of health care for all of us and why we should care about reversing the overweight trend with new public policies.
Anyway, I'll stipulate that you and I don't agree on how best to provide health coverage to people. As I said, that's not a road I'm interested in going down today. I'll stand by my point, though, that just because we have a system in which someone else's lifestyle can potentially cost you money (indirectly, I might add), that doesn't mean we're logically inconsistent when we try to prevent someone else's lifestyle from costing you your life (directly OR indirectly).
I'm gonna hop out of the discussion now, as I believe my points are clear. I think a conversation about determining the appropriate risk threshold for a vaccine mandate would be useful, but I don't have any relevant knowledge or experience to contribute to that conversation. That's for doctors and folks with expertise in public health to figure out, but I will offer this for context:
Case fatality rate of some diseases with vaccine mandates (other numbers besides CFR, like transmissibility, may be useful to consider here, too):
So, the CFR of COVID is in line with other diseases for which we have vaccine mandates. I don't know what the public health consensus is (or if there even is one) on what risk threshold warrants a mandate, but that's the conversation to have. Simply arguing "FREEDOM!" doesn't cut it unless you are also going to advocate we get rid of these other vaccine mandates.
Can you break down the covid fatality rate for healthy individuals under 40?
Can you break down the covid fatality rate, for those that have natural immunity from prior infection?
Thanks!
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