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Purdue hoops National Championship

northside100

northside100

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i know there are many posters who want to discredit anything beyond wins and losses, but do fans realize how close this program was to a national championship last year?

If Biggie comes back for his junior year, which I believe he was much closer to doing than many thought, and Haas doesn’t get hurt, that team is the runaway favorite to win it all.

I think we’re a year away, but we could be approaching a similar tipping point next year. If Carsen, Nojel and Haarms all come back and Painter signs a blue chip front court recruit such as Malik Hall we could be in the hunt again.
 
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If we are as good many expect us to be this year, the players you mention won't be here next year. Edwards is already grabbing all America honors. Rather than making predictions for next year, let's enjoy this year first.
 
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Wolegib said:
If we are as good many expect us to be this year, the players you mention won't be here next year. Edwards is already grabbing all America honors. Rather than making predictions for next year, let's enjoy this year first.
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I like to be able to look at both this year and the future of the program, I hope that doesn’t make you uncomfortable.

As I’m sure you’re aware, being an all American doesn’t equate to high draft status or NBA success. I hope Carsen parlays an amazing season into a top 15 pick, but the league isn’t killing itself to draft six foot guards. If Carsen is projected to be a late first round pick I hope he speaks to Biggie about that decision.

Nojel and Matt are great prospects, I’m incredibly excited about their development this year, but to project them as top 15 picks after their sophomore year is incredibly aggressive. I suspect they would be thrilled if both had great years this year, go through the NBA evaluation process and are told that they are borderline first round picks and should come back for their junior year.
 
I'm not uncomfortable. I'm just bored. Why talk about next year when this year hasn't even started yet? Do you really want that national championship so bad that you must look to the future and pose an unrealistic scenario? It's highly possible we'll win a national championship in 2020 if only we get the top 5 recruits in the nation to sign with us as well. It could happen. Perhaps I just got tired of all the Swanigan returning talk when the majority of us all knew he was likely to turn pro, and we were fortunate he stayed two years.

As I look at Edwards and Eastern, I also look at what other guards may enter the draft this year. A lot of their decision will be made based on what their competition will be for those draft slots.

I will admit after seeing that Utah will waive Haas and allow him to play for their develop league team, that The big man is no longer the commodity it once was, and Haarms will probably stay at Purdue for all 4 years. I'm unsure how much his game is really going to increase. Do you know how many posters kept pointing out players per minute stats in the past and declared the player would put up monster numbers when given 30 minutes, but when given additional minutes, their stats didn't improve very much.

I prerfer realism over unrealistic future optimism. So what's your vision for the 2025 season?
 
I am really looking forward to this upcoming season and don't want to think too far beyond this season because so much can change before 2019/2020 happens.
As far as last year goes, I think if Vince did not hurt his ankle we would have been a different team down the stretch and may have had a good shot at winning the BTT. After he hurt his ankle he never fully recovered from it during the remainder of the season. I also think we peaked a little early and shortly thereafter Vince went down with the ankle. Losing Haas in the tournament was a big setback too. The play that took out Haas was dirty IMO, which made it even more infuriating. And for it to happen when we all but had the game wrapped up was also a bummer. It was a great season, and I agree if we had a little more luck who knows what might have happened.

As far as this season, It could be special if the work some of the guys put in during the offseason translates into better offensive numbers and good team basketball. Less than a month to go until the season begins! Can't wait!
 
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Wolegib said:
I'm not uncomfortable. I'm just bored. Why talk about next year when this year hasn't even started yet? Do you really want that national championship so bad that you must look to the future and pose an unrealistic scenario? It's highly possible we'll win a national championship in 2020 if only we get the top 5 recruits in the nation to sign with us as well. It could happen. Perhaps I just got tired of all the Swanigan returning talk when the majority of us all knew he was likely to turn pro, and we were fortunate he stayed two years.

As I look at Edwards and Eastern, I also look at what other guards may enter the draft this year. A lot of their decision will be made based on what their competition will be for those draft slots.

I will admit after seeing that Utah will waive Haas and allow him to play for their develop league team, that The big man is no longer the commodity it once was, and Haarms will probably stay at Purdue for all 4 years. I'm unsure how much his game is really going to increase. Do you know how many posters kept pointing out players per minute stats in the past and declared the player would put up monster numbers when given 30 minutes, but when given additional minutes, their stats didn't improve very much.

I prerfer realism over unrealistic future optimism. So what's your vision for the 2025 season?
Click to expand...

I want to make sure I understand your question. Are you stating that 1) it’s unrealistic to expect all three back or 2) it’s unrealist to expect that if all three come back and we land a kid it seems we’re leading for, that team could be a legit national championship contender?

I don’t dismiss either argument, although your sarcasm was perhaps uncalled for, but my response to each is quite different.

I plan to enjoy the upcoming season, if you know of new information about this season I’d be happy to discuss that, otherwise this seems like a slow time period.

As always, if anything I post bores you or makes you uncomfortable, feel free not to read it.
 
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northside100 said:
As always, if anything I post bores you or makes you uncomfortable, feel free not to read it.
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LMAO, woefulgab calling anyone's posts boring is the definition f irony. Does he even read his own posts?

Anyone that is not excited for the potential of this program going forward isn't paying attention. The goal of every school is to get to is to get a national title and things are lining up for us to continue to take shots at that prize. I more than okay to both be excited for this year and the future because things are bright for us.
 
Mgkcbb said:
It helps that Matt Painter is without a doubt a top 20 coach in the nation. When you have one of those, theres always potential to ship.
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Wouldn't say he's without a doubt a top 20 coach. Could certainly make a case for him being in the top 20, along with others. Would say he's without a doubt top 30 coach.
 
Mgkcbb said:
It helps that Matt Painter is without a doubt a top 20 coach in the nation. When you have one of those, theres always potential to ship.
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Top 20 coaches usually get past the SW 16.......Guess Painter is the outlier?

He's a good coach. But, "without doubt", Top 20? Meh....25-30'ish.
 
IUfanBorden said:
Top 20 coaches usually get past the SW 16.......Guess Painter is the outlier?

He's a good coach. But, "without doubt", Top 20? Meh....25-30'ish.
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I see you struggle with math. For what it's worth, 16 is smaller than 20.

If you consistently get your team to the Sweet Sixteen, one might assume you are one of the top 20 coaches.
 
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mathboy said:
I see you struggle with math. For what it's worth, 16 is smaller than 20.

If you consistently get your team to the Sweet Sixteen, one might assume you are one of the top 20 coaches.
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Seems you struggle with the word, "consistently"... Four times in 14 years is consistent? Now had you said, "consistently" get your team in the NCAAT...Meh, yeah. Or consistently loses in the round of 64 or 32(6 times), then yeah...

But 4 times in 14 seasons?

Ok.

And for the record----The highest I;ve seen Painter rated is 23rd. Again----A good coach. But "without doubt" Top 20? No.
 
JohnnyDoeBoiler said:
Would Archie Miller be considered a top 20 coach?
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Seen him rated as high as 15th. I think the jury is out on him. Hard to gauge right now. This years a big year. As of now, I think he's one of the top young coaches in the game. TIme will tell.

Edit: Also, Miller's only 39, and is just in his 8th year as a D1 coach; 1 year at a P5 school. It would homerish to call him a Top 20 coach. But I do think the capability is there.
 
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northside100 said:
Lol, that’s the stupidest post I’ve ever read. I know six year olds that could spot the flaw in that logic.
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So you think because Painter has went to the SW 16, FOUR times in 14 years,. that makes him a Top 20 coach? So I guess Tom Crean is a fringe Top 20, coach? He's been to the SW 16 4 times in 18 seasons. Including a FInal Four. And hell, in fairness, 3 of those years was spent coaching three, awful IU teams. So lets say 4 SW 16's in 15 seasons---With a Final Four.

Yep, Crean's A Top 20 coach.
 
IUfanBorden said:
Seen him rated as high as 15th. I think the jury is out on him. Hard to gauge right now. This years a big year. As of now, I think he's one of the top young coaches in the game. TIme will tell.

Edit: Also, Miller's only 39, and is just in his 8th year as a D1 coach; 1 year at a P5 school. It would homerish to call him a Top 20 coach. But I do think the capability is there.
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Based on your own set of criteria you stated in a previous message, he would not since he has never gone beyond a S16...just a heads up.

I agree it is probably a bit early to call exactly where he stands, but I could probably give you 20 other coaches ahead of Miller and CMP would be one of them.
 
JohnnyDoeBoiler said:
Based on your own set of criteria you stated in a previous message, he would not since he has never gone beyond a S16...just a heads up.

I agree it is probably a bit early to call exactly where he stands, but I could probably give you 20 other coaches ahead of Miller and CMP would be one of them.
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Miller has been to the Elite 8..........Just a heads up.


http://sportswire.usatoday.com/2014...hie-miller-coach-elite-eight-ncaa-tournament/

I think its fair---RIGHT NOW, to list Painter ahead(of Miller). Not so sure in a few years or so.
 
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IUfanBorden said:
Miller has been to the Elite 8..........Just a heads up.


http://sportswire.usatoday.com/2014...hie-miller-coach-elite-eight-ncaa-tournament/

I think its fair---RIGHT NOW, to list Painter ahead(of Miller). Not so sure in a few years or so.
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Its fair to list a guy who has built multiple top 10 teams, along with one of the 25 best offenses ever in the KenPom era, ahead of a guy whose never had a team higher than 39th?

Well yeah Borden, thanks for pointing out the obvious. Nobody with any semblance of a clue thinks Archie Miller is even in the same discussion as Matt Painter, let alone better than him.

Archie Miller has coached 7 years - 5 of those years have ended in 0 tournament wins. Think about how awful that is. 5 of 7 years doesnt even result in a tournament win. 4 total tournament wins in his 7 year career - literally the same as Matt Painter has had in only the past 2 years.


In Matt Painters 14 year coaching career, 9 of his teams have finished higher than Archie Millers best KenPom team ever.


But sure, Archie Miller luckboxed a whole ONE extra win in one single tournament so lets ignore the fact hes missed the tournament 3 out of 7 years and has failed to win a single tournament game in 5 of those 7 years. Hes essentially Shaka Smart - a below average coach who has built his reputation on one run and continued to be bad every other year.


Take out his one lucky run - missed 3 of 6 tournaments and has only one single tournament win in 6 years of coaching.
 
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In Matt Painters first 7 years of coaching, he won at least 1 tournament game in 5 of 7 years. Its literally flip flopped for Archie Miller - has failed to win a tournament game in 5 of 7 years.

Matt Painter has made the Sweet 16 alone the same amount of years Archie Miller has even made the tournament (4).

In Matt Painters first 7 years, he made the tournament six times to only 4 out of 7 for Archie.

In Matt Painters first 7 years, he had double the tournament wins (8) than Archie has his first seven years (4).

In Matt Painters first 7 years, he had one team outside the top 50 in KenPom. Archie Miller has finished outside the top 50 over half (4) of his 7 years of coaching.

In Matt Painters first 7 years, 5 of his teams finished higher than Archie Millers best KenPom finish ever.

Archie Miller has made it to the Sweet 16 one time in his 7 years of coaching. Matt Painter has made it to the Sweet 16 double that in the past two years alone.
 
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IUfanBorden said:
Top 20 coaches usually get past the SW 16.......Guess Painter is the outlier?

He's a good coach. But, "without doubt", Top 20? Meh....25-30'ish.
Click to expand...

Total NCAA Tournament appearances the past 15 years



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mathboy said:
I see you struggle with math. For what it's worth, 16 is smaller than 20.

If you consistently get your team to the Sweet Sixteen, one might assume you are one of the top 20 coaches.
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I would like to see 20 names better..20 coaches that could do what Matt has done with similar talent for all those games. Course if you are one that ignores all the variables that go into why a player goes to certain schools and assumes that the coach is the only variable at play...then 20 might still be a stretch, but not as big of a stretch
 
I'm sorry, you can keep your Archie, I'll take CMP over him any day. He's a proven good coach , Arch, not so proven. We'll see.
 
NC_Trojan10 said:
*no particular order*

K
Cal
Roy
Boeheim
Belein
Izzo
Holtmann
Self
Sean Miller
Mack
Greg Marshall
Bennet
Brey
Huggins
Altman
Few
Wright
Frank Martin
Lon Kruger
Rick Barnes
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Frank Martin? Rick Barnes? Holtmann?
Lon Kruger?

Can you explain how these four are better than Painter?
 
proudopete said:
Frank Martin? Rick Barnes? Holtmann?
Lon Kruger?

Can you explain how these four are better than Painter?
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Go look up their coaching record. Holtman is your only argument. Kruger has been to the elite 8 (at least) with 3 different teams. Barnes has been to 3 elite 8s and a final 4. Frank martin 2 elite 8s and a final 4.
 
Matt Painter .675 win%
Rick Barnes .649 win%
Lon Kruger .610 win%
Frank Martin .615 win%

I am not even going to waste my time on Holtmann
 
proudopete said:
That’s fine. Now try to explain how Holtmann is on your list when he hasn’t had tourney success.
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In 4 years at Butler/OSU, he has 3 2nd place conference finishes, and a 4th place finish. In that time he has 5 tournament wins. He took an OSU team that many thought would be bad and finished 2nd in the B1G. As I said, holtmann is the only coach on the list that you can argue Painter is better than.

Given that he has shown to be a very good recruiter at the B1G level, it probably wont be an argument much longer.
 
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IUfanBorden said:
So you think because Painter has went to the SW 16, FOUR times in 14 years,. that makes him a Top 20 coach? So I guess Tom Crean is a fringe Top 20, coach? He's been to the SW 16 4 times in 18 seasons. Including a FInal Four. And hell, in fairness, 3 of those years was spent coaching three, awful IU teams. So lets say 4 SW 16's in 15 seasons---With a Final Four.

Yep, Crean's A Top 20 coach.
Click to expand...

I’m just quoting your post “Top 20 coaches usually get past the SW 16”. You can retract that statement if you want but don’t try to change the arguement.
 
IUfanBorden said:
Seen him rated as high as 15th. I think the jury is out on him. Hard to gauge right now. This years a big year. As of now, I think he's one of the top young coaches in the game. TIme will tell.

Edit: Also, Miller's only 39, and is just in his 8th year as a D1 coach; 1 year at a P5 school. It would homerish to call him a Top 20 coach. But I do think the capability is there.
Click to expand...

I’ll give you credit and say that this seems fair. Archie needs three more years at IU (including this year) to be judged fairly.
 
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