Purdue hoops National Championship
- Thread starter northside100
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How many times does Kenpom show he made the final 4 in the last 3 years? How many times does Kenpom show he has made it passed the sweet 16 in his career?
Just so everyone realizes how incredibly dumb that statement is, its the equivalent of saying a 33% 3 point shooter is a top 20 shooter in the nation because he had one game where he shot 8 for 8 from 3.
"Yeah, hes been really bad the majority of his career and he misses the tournament more than he actually makes the tournament, but he ran really good in one of those rare tournament appearances and won 4 games instead of 2 so hes a top 20 coach."
Lolwhat?
"Yeah, hes been really bad the majority of his career and he misses the tournament more than he actually makes the tournament, but he ran really good in one of those rare tournament appearances and won 4 games instead of 2 so hes a top 20 coach."
Lolwhat?
Would you take missing the tournament 5/6 years if it meant Purdue got to the final 4 that 6th year? I know south Carolina fans would.
Painter wouldnt still be coaching at Purdue if he missed the tournament 5 out of 6 years so I know he wouldnt.
Besides, a coach who regularly makes the tournament is far more likely to make future final fours considering, you know, he actually makes the tournament.
Jay Wright failed to reach the Sweet 16 six years in a row, constantly flaming out in round 1 or 2. But, he kept making the tournament and low and behold hes won 2 of the last 3 national championships.
Jay Wright didnt start doing anything until he started getting 5* talent.
Whether painter is 18 or 21 it matters very little.
Jay Wright seeding at Villanova prior to title... 1 seed-2 ('06 Elite Eight,'15) 2 seed-2 ('14,'10) 3 seed-1 ('09-Final Four)
Painter tournament seeding... 2 seed-('18) 3-Seed ('11) 4 seed-('17, '10)
Painter has nowhere near the level of success Jay Wright had prior to his titles. He isn't turning into Jay Wright anytime soon nor should anyone reasonably expect that.
Frank Martin went to the tourney 4/5 years at K State and left to go to an SEC bottom feeder in South Carolina and took them to a final four...That's an impressive coaching job...It may be difficult for MGK to understand but different schools have different expectations of success and larger hurdles to build a successful program. A lot easier to be successful at Purdue than it is at Illinois State or even Ole Miss...
Painter tournament seeding... 2 seed-('18) 3-Seed ('11) 4 seed-('17, '10)
Painter has nowhere near the level of success Jay Wright had prior to his titles. He isn't turning into Jay Wright anytime soon nor should anyone reasonably expect that.
Frank Martin went to the tourney 4/5 years at K State and left to go to an SEC bottom feeder in South Carolina and took them to a final four...That's an impressive coaching job...It may be difficult for MGK to understand but different schools have different expectations of success and larger hurdles to build a successful program. A lot easier to be successful at Purdue than it is at Illinois State or even Ole Miss...
The 2016 national championship team had one single 5 star player. Freshman Jalen Brunson.
Brunson scored 5 points in the Sweet 16, 7 points in the elite 8, 8 in the final four game, and 4 in the national championship.
You really going to tell me he is what pushed them over the edge from not making the sweet 16 in 6 years to national champions in 2016?
Its impossible to be one of the 20 bezt coaches in the nation if youve missed the tournament 5 out of the last 6 years. Period. Point blank.
You can make up whatever fake excuse you want about south carolinas supposed expectations, does not change that hes only made the tournament once in 6 years.
Like how are we even discussing him as a top 20 coach right now?
He certainly was a heavy contributor to that team. As has been proven many times, you need a mixture of 4 year talented players with 5* talent to win the championship. That's indisputable. 39/40 years the champion has had a McDonald's all American on the team.
If you sent Painter to Oregon State what would be his tournament appearance percentage be?
can't imagine a broad statement being decided by very limited data, in "scope", "time", and "controlled settings" without more specific analysis statistically for significance in comparing the Mean SS to the Error SS as though it was a "random experiment". Not the same type of reasoning one expects when testing claims of hypothesis of those in medicine or other areas of life and death....
To each ...his or her own...
Sorta like claiming a coach sucks vs doesnt suck based on the number of top 25 offenses he has had...
It's OK. We aren't posting on your board looking for affirmation.
From you? Why would we. lol.
Brunson was 5th on the team in scoring that year. As I already pointed out, he didnt score in double figures even once during Novas last 4 tournament games, which makes sense considering he didnt even average double figures in scoring on the year.
1/1...You can't be serious with that response...Especially with someone who uses stats as frequently as you do...Again...In the Pac-12...I would bet my life Painter doesn't go to the NCAA tournament 4/5 years with Oregon State and if he managed to go to the tournament even once the administration would be thrilled
Well, youre wrong. Not sure how Oregon State was even brought into the mix, but lets state some facts here.
Matt Painter just built one of the 25 best offenses in the KenPom era withoit a single top 70 recruit. Hes made the tournament 11 out of 14 years. He made the tournament at Southern Illinois. Hes going to crush and get to the tournament regardless of where he goes.
He averaged .4 less pts/gm than Biggie did as a freshman at Purdue. Did Biggie also not have a big impact as a freshman? Did Biggie perform well that year in the tournament game? Does that take away from the impact he had on that team? No it doesnt.
Fair point...must have done my math wrong when counting back on the 2014 bracket. However, being the Purdue homer that I am....Dayton only played #6 OSU (64), #3 Syracuse (32), #10 Stanford (S16) to get to that Elite Eight. Purdue, under CMP, hasn't had a bracket really open up like that but once...and that VCU team made it to the FF.
Conference wise, I'd probably put CMP behind Izzo and Belein and slightly ahead of Holtman at this point.
yeah, that is pretty broad as well...even though it did get a bit more specific.
Still a function of what is the measurement for offense and the opposition for starters.? The tourney where coaches more often than not, know less about the many teams they played during the season and now during a short duration of hand picked teams to play, brackets and location doesn't begin to suggest that less knowledge under selected biasing begins to provide an understanding of of a coach actually coaching (requires knowledge or luck) as the players actually playing. The tourney says more about the talent than a coach, unless you subscribe that the best coaches know less (less able to actually coach and/or prepare for) about their team and the opposition they are facing...which simply doesn't make sense.
Sean Miller, with all of the talent he has had at his disposal at Arizona....never made a FF. Granted he has made the E8 three times but when you are sending that much talent to the NBA, you need to get to a FF.
Oregon State was brought up to highlight the differences across different programs. Purdue is in an infinitely better position to succeed as a program than someone like Oregon State. All things being equal...If Painter was at Oregon State instead of Purdue I would guarantee he wouldn't have close to the same success as he would at Purdue...Or at the very least in the short term (5 years) That's why looking at Frank Martin's record at South Carolina and then stating he isn't a good coach is disingenuous...
Biggie had the worst offensive rating of any player on Purdue his freshman year. He was tied for 6th in win shares. He was probably slightly more impactful than Brunson was, but neither were guys who made the team.
Frank Martin is a decent enough coach, hes certainly nowhere near the 20 best coaches in the nation. Without researching it, would guess hes probably right around 50th or so.
But yeah, I about spit my drink out when I read posts trying to claim seriously hes one of the best 20 coaches. Can't even make the tournament 50% of the time, but supposedly better all but 19 coaches lol
50th?? Take this for data...There are only 24 active HC's with a FF appearance...Frank Martin happens to be one of them...
Im surprised I even have to explain it in terms like this to an adult
What do you think is more telling of a coach and his coaching ability?
1. A 4 game sample one year out of 11.
2. A body of work spanning 11 years worth of 30+ game seasons
Congratulations to him, Porter Moser, Shaka Smart, and all the other average coaches who hit a heater and won the lottery during the ncaa tournament one random year. Unfortunately, that hasnt helped and wont help them make the tournament in the future. You have to be a good coach to consistently make the tournament, not just a lucky one.
Arrogant and at the same time pathetically silly statement. You don't see that very often.
I would say the 4/5 years he took K-State to the tournament and winning at least one game w/ an Elite Eight before taking a team that had only 8 tournament appearances EVER to the Final Four is pretty indicative of good coaching ability. Maybe I'm way off base but personally I think that's a pretty good resume.
Kevin Ollie won a national championship. Tony Bennett hasnt made a final four.
One has already been fired and the other basically has a lifetime contract at Virginia if he wants.
But wait a minute, how is that so? Doesnt UCONN realize Ollie won a national champio ship so he must be a better coach than Tont Bennett, right?
One has already been fired and the other basically has a lifetime contract at Virginia if he wants.
But wait a minute, how is that so? Doesnt UCONN realize Ollie won a national champio ship so he must be a better coach than Tont Bennett, right?
So why the hell did Tom Crean get fired then?
Afterall, Indiana had one of the very few active coaches who has made the final four.
Yet, all of you IU slappies wanted him fired for a guy who has never made the final four.
Now go on and dance for me here boy, I want to see the gymnastics youll have to do to explain this one away.
Pretty convincing strawman argument there. Also appreciate the condescension. Not sure anywhere in this thread has Ollie been mentioned nor Bennett's coaching discredited because of a lack of tournament success. In this circumstance Martin has both a (lucky??) tournament run and consistent tournament success with a more proven program
Consistent tournament success?? Lolwhat? Hes missed the tournament more than half of the years hes been a head coach!
How in the world do you have consistent tournament success when you dont even consistently make the tournament? Wat.
Looks like you guys are now arguing that Crean is a Top 20 coach. Make up your minds. By your criteria (?) Bill Hodges would have been a Top 20 coach.
Crean was given his chance to produce at a high level. He failed, so IU moved on. The occasional big ten championship and a couple sweet 16s is not acceptable at IU.
For most people in this country success is measured simply by the scale or unlikelihood of your achievements. Very few people outside of Purdue will remember Painter as an all-time great for his winning percentage or ability to make the tournament every year if he never advances past the Sweet 16. That's just the reality.
Ok...Try to follow this..First Crean...
...Remember when I said different programs have different expectations....Well Indiana (and Purdue) have much much higher expectations for performance than an SEC bottomfeeder. You see those schools care about a sport called football and in fact don't really concern themselves with competing in basketball.
Indiana happens to have 5 National Titles...Almost as many NCAA tournament appearances as South Carolina had prior to Martin's tenure...You see because Indiana (and Purdue) have championship expectations and they are not as patient with a coach that cannot consistently win given the resources at their disposal...I'm not sure you're familiar with something called a recruiting budget but Indiana and Purdue have a much larger budget than South Carolina and that helps them get the players they want easier. Now because the school is spending more money....They want to have better records...Shocking right? Even though Tom Crean had a Final Four appearance at Marquette...The Indiana administration was not happy with only making the NCAA tournament 4/9 years under Crean. That's less than half the years he coached!! They figured after 9 years and with Indiana having NBA talent it was unacceptable to not make the tournament. So they replaced him with someone who they believed could do better given the resources and history of Indiana...
Now here's where Frank Martin and South Carolina come in...South Carolina almost never makes the tournament...This makes potential recruits sad and less likely to play for them...But Frank Martin took them to the Final Four. While Duke (and Indiana and Purdue) wouldn't be happy with his record...Based on previous results and expectations he's actually done a good job...
I hope this helps.
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What are you talking about? Crean has made a final four before and thats all that matters. You fired a guy who has made a final four, thus making him better than every other coach who hasnt, for a guy who has never made a final four.
By the way, Frank Martin is 95-95 in conference play during his coaching career. Are you still going to double down and claim hes one of the 20 best coaches in the nation?
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