Jaden Ivey goes from an all time Boiler favorite to all time scapegoat in one game.

[TwinDegrees2]

But that is what is relevant to Ivey...and, so many others like him...it is not unique to him.

He wanted to play well at/for Purdue, but, his focus has been/was/is on getting to the NBA...like say, that is not unique to him, he is just less mature about it than some others are or have been.

It is not all on him either...it starts with AAU, which is about as great a detriment directly and indirectly to actual organized basketball as there is, and, then in a case like his, it carries over often to HS where he can do whatever he wants and becomes accustomed to it, compounded by being asked to do everything at times.

It is the ultimate catch-22 at a place like Purdue...it needs a guy with the ability and talent of Ivey, but, a guy with that ability and talent does not fit Purdue generally either, and, because it is such a rarity to have a guy with that talent and ability, it is always a struggle to coach it and know how to use it and maximize it on those rare occasions when a guy like that comes along.

I agree on AAU...my grandson played on a AAU team in Fort Wayne the past two seasons. As a Soph last year, he averaged 24 PPG for the summer and averaged 27 in the Chicago tourney. Come fall and winter, starting every game for his HS team his coach was totally different and the offense centered around one senior. His HS coach in exit meetings told him he will be "the guy" for his HS team next year. Fortunately my grandson played great defense getting the other teams best player and played great but was the 3rd/4th offensive option because of what his HS coach thought was a great offense. We won 9 games. This season he's the featured player on the Ft. Wayne team and will be show cased. There is very little defense played in AAU and I think that even if he averages high numbers, it will be his defense and leadership that will get him noticed and an eventual scholarship.

 

[TwinDegrees2]

I admire the optimism or attempt at a positive spin, but, there is no silver lining with respect to what happened, and, as much as anything, it is just another blow to Purdue's national image/perception.

Ivey did not play his way out of anything, as, nobody cares at the NBA level what happened, and, Edey was never in the draft...I don't think Edey will ever be drafted for that matter.

Having Edey back at Purdue is a double-edged sword...blessing from an offensive standpoint with respect to his ability to score and draw fouls, but, a curse at the defensive end...he does not have the luxury that he had with Williams behind him now either. Admittedly, I would rather have him back than not, but, it still leaves Purdue in a bad spot defensively.

Ivey played himself out of a few million dollars.

 

[DAG10]

What I understood you to say is "athletes" are different at the end of the year than before and during when the Big was very successful. Athletes prefer a slow or missing pea in the whistle, where skill people do not want the skill diminished by slapping and holding. If the athletes are different than in the Big, perhaps the reffing is much more different in teh big where it is physical, but with bigger and slower bodies. The lack of a whistle underneath on Purdue bigs did not cause Purdue to lose, but with a different whistle Purdue probably doesn't lose even with many of the mistakes. If you are going to swallow the whistle, I want the quicker, more athletic team who can foul and be gone before the ref can see what happened. When you play mid majors in the tourney you most likely are going to have smaller, quicker and more athletic players that are OLDER and have developed for 3 or 4 years since the athletic ability they had out of highschool was probably lacking a lot of skill in them being in mid major to begin with...and then would there be athletes at St Peter's much different than Texas?

Four big teams successful early, ranked high all year and NONE go past the sweet 16. Something concerning the Big that all teh teams apparently had. I have some things to do today, but apparently this area is much bigger than Purdue. Another conversation for another time on teh forum might be the two logical inconsistentcies with Matt being too stubborn with one having a basis in MANY threads this year.

It would be interesting to see the guy (can't recall his moniker) that goes to the other teams site and gathers some funny comments to do the same off the Purdue forum after the loss. I'll be Purdue held its own...

The B1G does not have a collection of athletes like other top programs...Iowa had Murray...then who/what (his brother was their next best player)? Wisconsin had Davis, then nothing after. Purdue only has Ivey that is an elite athlete and NBA prospect. Illinois has Cockburn...Curbelo...a nice young guy in Melendez...but, they are not loaded by any means. Michigan's best player is a fringe NBA-guy and not an incredible athlete in any way. So, the B1G has talented individuals and good basketball teams, but, they don't have the collective talent of SEC teams, Big 12 teams, ACC teams, etc.

As for the whistle(s), or lack thereof, there is no question at all that B1G officiating is ridiculously different, and, not good...the B1G games are played in the 60s in general (and, sometimes they don't even get there when Wisconsin is playing)...the B1G style is generally a half-court, motion offense...B1G teams don't play a up-and-down the floor/push the ball/press on defense game that the other conferences do....the B1G has WAY more giant post guys taking up space in the lane, sitting only on the block than any other P5 conference...the B1G does not have guards that push opposing offenses out on the floor so that they can't initiate the offense like they are accustomed to that other conferences and teams do, and, the B1G, in most cases, does not have the collective guards that so many mid-majors and top P5 teams do that just break other teams down like happens repeatedly to B1G teams in the NCAA tournament. There is no question that guys that are athletes fare SO much better than the skill guys in the NCAA tournament, and, that guards that can create are huge, but, so are guards that create turnovers that lead to easy buckets (no better example of that than watching teams against Purdue). So, B1G style and how B1G games are called do matter, and, do not help...not for/with the typical B1G team(s).

Howard is different in all almost all of those ways...no coincidence that he has had success as such, and, he will continue to I have no doubt. Iowa is a little different, but, can't consistently get guys...they play the right style at least to allow for them to have a chance, they just don't have the talent (and, even in their case, they were lulled into the B1G "model" recently where they played through Garza and it took them absolutely nowhere outside of the B1G. Illinois has the athletes, but, Underwood does not play the right style either...at least not with Cockburn as the literal center piece. MSU has the formula in general, but, has not had the same level of talent that it has in the past...if they did, they would still be a national power.

Painter unfortunately has the double whammy working against him...wrong personnel AND wrong model offensively. And, the fact that he just is who he is with respect to what he believes in. Keady was never a guard-centric guy...and, never a guy that wanted to press and run up and down the floor, and, like his protege, would never entertain the idea of playing zone defense simply because he did not like it.

And, in hindsight, the timing of Lutz AND Shrewsberry leaving could not have been worse, and, they did not get better as a staff with the guys that they brought in/back...and, to some extent, I hate the idea of bringing guys back even...when you have failed as they have collectively for as long as they have on the national stage, you need to look outside of the "family" and familiarity...he did it with Shrewsberry initially, and, benefited more actually the second time. Johnson did not introduce anything this year, and, Lusk certainly did not add anything...at all...from a defensive perspective.

There are B1G problems working against Purdue/Painter, and, there are Purdue/Painter problems compounding it.

 

[rwenger]

We fan folks can all groan and growl back and forth for months over Jaden’s play and readiness -- that’s our job, ain’t it? -- but we can all share in big applause for his mom.

Niele showed up in Philly and cheered on Jaden in person on the eve of her own team’s NCAA Sweet Sixteen game against a top-seeded rival, way up I-95 in Bridgeport.

Gotta show some love for Coach Ivey’s efforts. Go Irish ladies! Kick ’em in the Pack. Again.

And she showed Digger Phelps that you can get there from here.

She still have her girls kneeling for the anthem?

 

[DAG10]

I agree on AAU...my grandson played on a AAU team in Fort Wayne the past two seasons. As a Soph last year, he averaged 24 PPG for the summer and averaged 27 in the Chicago tourney. Come fall and winter, starting every game for his HS team his coach was totally different and the offense centered around one senior. His HS coach in exit meetings told him he will be "the guy" for his HS team next year. Fortunately my grandson played great defense getting the other teams best player and played great but was the 3rd/4th offensive option because of what his HS coach thought was a great offense. We won 9 games. This season he's the featured player on the Ft. Wayne team and will be show cased. There is very little defense played in AAU and I think that even if he averages high numbers, it will be his defense and leadership that will get him noticed and an eventual scholarship.

They could not be more different most of the time...and, not sure that either is ideal in any way...AAU has no discipline whatsoever...HS, you often are at the mercy of a guy who thinks he is the next Coach K, and, you are playing with 3 or 4 guys that have no future after HS.

 

[tjreese]

The B1G does not have a collection of athletes like other top programs...Iowa had Murray...then who/what (his brother was their next best player)? Wisconsin had Davis, then nothing after. Purdue only has Ivey that is an elite athlete and NBA prospect. Illinois has Cockburn...Curbelo...a nice young guy in Melendez...but, they are not loaded by any means. Michigan's best player is a fringe NBA-guy and not an incredible athlete in any way. So, the B1G has talented individuals and good basketball teams, but, they don't have the collective talent of SEC teams, Big 12 teams, ACC teams, etc.

As for the whistle(s), or lack thereof, there is no question at all that B1G officiating is ridiculously different, and, not good...the B1G games are played in the 60s in general (and, sometimes they don't even get there when Wisconsin is playing)...the B1G style is generally a half-court, motion offense...B1G teams don't play a up-and-down the floor/push the ball/press on defense game that the other conferences do....the B1G has WAY more giant post guys taking up space in the lane, sitting only on the block than any other P5 conference...the B1G does not have guards that push opposing offenses out on the floor so that they can't initiate the offense like they are accustomed to that other conferences and teams do, and, the B1G, in most cases, does not have the collective guards that so many mid-majors and top P5 teams do that just break other teams down like happens repeatedly to B1G teams in the NCAA tournament. There is no question that guys that are athletes fare SO much better than the skill guys in the NCAA tournament, and, that guards that can create are huge, but, so are guards that create turnovers that lead to easy buckets (no better example of that than watching teams against Purdue). So, B1G style and how B1G games are called do matter, and, do not help...not for/with the typical B1G team(s).

Howard is different in all almost all of those ways...no coincidence that he has had success as such, and, he will continue to I have no doubt. Iowa is a little different, but, can't consistently get guys...they play the right style at least to allow for them to have a chance, they just don't have the talent (and, even in their case, they were lulled into the B1G "model" recently where they played through Garza and it took them absolutely nowhere outside of the B1G. Illinois has the athletes, but, Underwood does not play the right style either...at least not with Cockburn as the literal center piece. MSU has the formula in general, but, has not had the same level of talent that it has in the past...if they did, they would still be a national power.

Painter unfortunately has the double whammy working against him...wrong personnel AND wrong model offensively. And, the fact that he just is who he is with respect to what he believes in. Keady was never a guard-centric guy...and, never a guy that wanted to press and run up and down the floor, and, like his protege, would never entertain the idea of playing zone defense simply because he did not like it.

And, in hindsight, the timing of Lutz AND Shrewsberry leaving could not have been worse, and, they did not get better as a staff with the guys that they brought in/back...and, to some extent, I hate the idea of bringing guys back even...when you have failed as they have collectively for as long as they have on the national stage, you need to look outside of the "family" and familiarity...he did it with Shrewsberry initially, and, benefited more actually the second time. Johnson did not introduce anything this year, and, Lusk certainly did not add anything...at all...from a defensive perspective.

There are B1G problems working against Purdue/Painter, and, there are Purdue/Painter problems compounding it.

I think you missed what I tried to say. The Big did fine playing against the other conferences and the collection of athletes they had. The Big did fine playing against those teams and whatever style was theirs before the Big season. Those teams, conferences and players were the same, but no Big team went past the sweet 16 even though Purdue, Illinois, Wisconsin, Iowa, Ohio State and Michigan State all spent time in the top 16. Michigan loaded never reached the top 5 most thought they would be. Different coaches, different D approaches and none got past the sweet 16. Even the computers that compared teams across the country and yet none got past the sweet 16. Obviously, I don't know the answers, but just taking the differences in D with Wisconsin, Illinois, and Iowa comprise the D offerings across the country. A lot of questions and no answers

 

[DAG10]

I think you missed what I tried to say. The Big did fine playing against the other conferences and the collection of athletes they had. The Big did fine playing against those teams and whatever style was theirs before the Big season. Those teams, conferences and players were the same, but no Big team went past the sweet 16 even though Purdue, Illinois, Wisconsin, Iowa, Ohio State and Michigan State all spent time in the top 16. Michigan loaded never reached the top 5 most thought they would be. Different coaches, different D approaches and none got past the sweet 16. Even the computers that compared teams across the country and yet none got past the sweet 16. Obviously, I don't know the answers, but just taking the differences in D with Wisconsin, Illinois, and Iowa comprise the D offerings across the country. A lot of questions and no answers

They did fine EARLY...Purdue was an entirely different team in November than it was in March...Purdue went from a team where any of 8/9 guys could be the leading scorer in any game to a team that it was literally only one of three guys in EVERY game...completely changed how they played...they were sharing the ball early in the year and racking up assists totals that were ridiculous...at the end...not so much...it was strictly Edey or Williams, and, if not one of them, Ivey generally.

It was hard to scout teams early...when you can watch tape of 30+ games, it is far easier to identify strengths, weaknesses and tendencies.

Guys physically wear down as well over the course of the year opposed to being fresh early on.

With some of the teams, early in the year they have young talent that is playing and does not have the experience yet that other teams might...they may have guys that did not start then that do later...they may not even have their rotations at that point.

Other teams got markedly better...look at UNC now vs when Purdue played them in November.

When you are scoring 90 points like Purdue was...turnovers and bad defense don't matter as much...play games in the 60s as they did so many times in the conference and then the NCAA tournament, and, they don't just matter, they are critical.

 

[BoilerAndy]

But painter did him no favors with his style of recruiting. Lane cloggers hinder iveys game, not help. And we’ll be continuing the annual tradition next year as well with berg.

I find these takes interesting. After every Purdue loss, people who watched the games complain that Painter pulls his centers out too far from the basket.

And I wonder how anyone can talk about reasons for the loss without once mentioning turnovers.

 

[tjreese]

They did fine EARLY...Purdue was an entirely different team in November than it was in March...Purdue went from a team where any of 8/9 guys could be the leading scorer in any game to a team that it was literally only one of three guys in EVERY game...completely changed how they played...they were sharing the ball early in the year and racking up assists totals that were ridiculous...at the end...not so much...it was strictly Edey or Williams, and, if not one of them, Ivey generally.

It was hard to scout teams early...when you can watch tape of 30+ games, it is far easier to identify strengths, weaknesses and tendencies.

Guys physically wear down as well over the course of the year opposed to being fresh early on.

With some of the teams, early in the year they have young talent that is playing and does not have the experience yet that other teams might...they may have guys that did not start then that do later...they may not even have their rotations at that point.

Other teams got markedly better...look at UNC now vs when Purdue played them in November.

When you are scoring 90 points like Purdue was...turnovers and bad defense don't matter as much...play games in the 60s as they did so many times in the conference and then the NCAA tournament, and, they don't just matter, they are critical.

I get that, but I previously listed 6 teams in the Big that spent most the season in the top 16 and none went past the sweet 16. Even if you were 100% correct in all you think on Purdue that leaves 5 other teams. Same result, different players, different defensive approaches. Offensively, Maryland spent a lot of time with 5 out, IU with 3 out, Purdue with 4 out, Rutgers a lot of one on one and so a few differences on offensive approaches as well. Don't see a lot of pressing in the Big and unaware of it being a problem for the Big teams in the tourney. The Big shared some variables and were different in others, but for a conference considered to have a lot of teams that were in the top 16 to not have a single team advance past the sweet 16 sure lumps a lot of different coaches, players and teams into the same loss column

 

[johnboiler123]

I find these takes interesting. After every Purdue loss, people who watched the games complain that Painter pulls his centers out too far from the basket.

And I wonder how anyone can talk about reasons for the loss without once mentioning turnovers.

Pulling edey away from the basket is zero threat to the defense. They don’t have to follow him out past 5 feet from the basket. Whether he’s 2 feet or 20 feet away from the basket makes no difference because his defender will always sag off to help in the paint. So in other words I’m really not sure what your point is? Besides, I’ve never been one of these so called complainers you referenced.

 

[Purdue Grad in Texas]

I think you missed what I tried to say. The Big did fine playing against the other conferences and the collection of athletes they had. The Big did fine playing against those teams and whatever style was theirs before the Big season. Those teams, conferences and players were the same, but no Big team went past the sweet 16 even though Purdue, Illinois, Wisconsin, Iowa, Ohio State and Michigan State all spent time in the top 16. Michigan loaded never reached the top 5 most thought they would be. Different coaches, different D approaches and none got past the sweet 16. Even the computers that compared teams across the country and yet none got past the sweet 16. Obviously, I don't know the answers, but just taking the differences in D with Wisconsin, Illinois, and Iowa comprise the D offerings across the country. A lot of questions and no answers

For whatever reason the last couple of years, a lot of the conference teams played tight in the tournament - Iowa, Illinois, Wisconsin, and Purdue all played tight at times, IMO. I thought Michigan and Ohio State were better - tough ask to knock out Villanova.

I don't fault Painter's game plan as much as how he managed the game and the team overall this year - below his average on that, IMO and way below average Friday evening. For whatever reason, he could not get his message across this year - that's on him AND the players.

For Purdue to fire Matt Painter would be a gross overreaction to a season ending loss no matter how frustrating/disappointing......it's not a move reflective of what Purdue's position and mission as an institution of higher learning is about. Plus, if a mistake is made following that - who do you think is next? Painter's boss....

I get why many are fed up, and the criticism is valid in my view. If you're really questioning whether he should continue long-term then you have to build that toward the next extension......goodness, let the next couple of recruiting classes get going and see what happens over the next several seasons.

As for this season, it was a very very good team.....had a chance to be great but couldn't do it.....ironically, Purdue got some help in the conference season, in the BTT, and in the East Region bracket - and still came up short at every stage. Each team has it's own unique characteristics, but I do think this season and some of the issues were more unique to this team particularly - some of it was unexpected because I do think they were a close knit team.....but they just never got over that final hurdle of consistency.....and it ultimately did them in.

I know people abhor patience in sports and in the internet age.....but Matt Painter has earned a little more time in my view.

JMHO

ok.....let me have it.......

 

[DAG10]

I get that, but I previously listed 6 teams in the Big that spent most the season in the top 16 and none went past the sweet 16. Even if you were 100% correct in all you think on Purdue that leaves 5 other teams. Same result, different players, different defensive approaches. Offensively, Maryland spent a lot of time with 5 out, IU with 3 out, Purdue with 4 out, Rutgers a lot of one on one and so a few differences on offensive approaches as well. Don't see a lot of pressing in the Big and unaware of it being a problem for the Big teams in the tourney. The Big shared some variables and were different in others, but for a conference considered to have a lot of teams that were in the top 16 to not have a single team advance past the sweet 16 sure lumps a lot of different coaches, players and teams into the same loss column

Guards, and, lack of elite ones....there is at least one common denominator. Primarily man-to-man defensive teams is another, and, none that press or push tempo. Here is another...none of them had more than 2 guys generally that could score 20 points in a game (Purdue did, but, one of them was ALWAYS on the bench in EVERY game).

Wisconsin...can't score/only one guy that can create/not great at rebounding, and, despite good defensive metrics, abused by good guards.

Rankings are completely irrelevant...largely influenced by where you start, and, not a ton of movement over the course of the year either.

Wisconsin won a TON of close games...they were as close to having 5 more losses (at least) than the 5 wins that they had instead.

B1G was indeed overrated...just as they were a year ago...I felt that Purdue and Illinois were the two best and most talented teams...and maybe they were...both got exposed though for what they really were.

 

[DAG10]

Pulling edey away from the basket is zero threat to the defense. They don’t have to follow him out past 5 feet from the basket. Whether he’s 2 feet or 20 feet away from the basket makes no difference because his defender will always sag off to help in the paint. So in other words I’m really not sure what your point is? Besides, I’ve never been one of these so called complainers you referenced.

I have said the same...never made any sense, other than perhaps the idea of keeping him from clogging the lane, but, they did not use it much of the time in that regard either if that indeed was the idea.

I can get that if that is the intent, but, otherwise, makes absolutely zero sense, and, if that is the intent, they either did not have the personnel to take advantage of it, or, they just did not run what they should have to do so...to your point, not like any defender was truly following him out there as there was no need to...so, while it makes sense in theory, in actuality, it did not.

Another thing that has bothered me admittedly for some time...Purdue's bigs do a horrible job of setting actual screens, or, their guards are horrible at using them...there are so many times that a screen is set, but, nobody is actually screened.

 

[tjreese]

Pulling edey away from the basket is zero threat to the defense. They don’t have to follow him out past 5 feet from the basket. Whether he’s 2 feet or 20 feet away from the basket makes no difference because his defender will always sag off to help in the paint. So in other words I’m really not sure what your point is? Besides, I’ve never been one of these so called complainers you referenced.

Actually, if he is screening for someone and there is nobody to help the defender getting screened it could lead to an open jumper or getting down hill

 

[BoilerAndy]

Pulling edey away from the basket is zero threat to the defense. They don’t have to follow him out past 5 feet from the basket. Whether he’s 2 feet or 20 feet away from the basket makes no difference because his defender will always sag off to help in the paint. So in other words I’m really not sure what your point is? Besides, I’ve never been one of these so called complainers you referenced.

I was contrasting your take with those who complain about having the bigs too far from the basket. And you did not mention Tre. I don't know how many beautiful plays were set up by him starting away from the basket. My point was, I find it difficult to rationalize that where Edey and Williams played are the reason for the loss when one fewer turnover could have resulted in a 4-point turnaround -- and a win.

 

[DAG10]

F

For whatever reason the last couple of years, a lot of the conference teams played tight in the tournament - Iowa, Illinois, Wisconsin, and Purdue all played tight at times, IMO. I thought Michigan and Ohio State were better - tough ask to knock out Villanova.

I don't fault Painter's game plan as much as how he managed the game and the team overall this year - below his average on that, IMO and way below average Friday evening. For whatever reason, he could not get his message across this year - that's on him AND the players.

For Purdue to fire Matt Painter would be a gross overreaction to a season ending loss no matter how frustrating/disappointing......it's not a move reflective of what Purdue's position and mission as an institution of higher learning is about. Plus, if a mistake is made following that - who do you think is next? Painter's boss....

I get why many are fed up, and the criticism is valid in my view. If you're really questioning whether he should continue long-term then you have to build that toward the next extension......goodness, let the next couple of recruiting classes get going and see what happens over the next several seasons.

As for this season, it was a very very good team.....had a chance to be great but couldn't do it.....ironically, Purdue got some help in the conference season, in the BTT, and in the East Region bracket - and still came up short at every stage. Each team has it's own unique characteristics, but I do think this season and some of the issues were more unique to this team particularly - some of it was unexpected because I do think they were a close knit team.....but they just never got over that final hurdle of consistency.....and it ultimately did them in.

I know people abhor patience in sports and in the internet age.....but Matt Painter has earned a little more time in my view.

JMHO

ok.....let me have it.......

Patience is not the issue...they have not reached a FF in 42 years now and have only had 2 Head Coaches for the course of that time...so, patience is not the issue...the issue is that they have no better idea of how to do it/make it happen despite repeated failures in 42 years, AND, that they continue to blow opportunities...like you said about this year alone with respect to the BTT and the NCAA tournament...not going to have a better opportunity in either than what Purdue had, and, they blew both...largely in the same fashion.

Other issue...just laying eggs way too many times...VCU...UALR...North Texas, and, now, making history while losing to Saint Peter's. Sh!t happens sometimes, but, that is a pretty alarming pattern actually right there, and, none more so than the most recent one where Purdue had every single advantage a team could have and still found a way to choke in the most epic of fashions.

He mentioned in the post-game the other night that Purdue was the only team in the Sweet 16 to not go to the transfer portal as if it was some badge of honor opposed to something that may have been the reason that he and his team are sitting at home yet again watching the NCAA tournament before the Final Four and why he will be there yet again as a spectator opposed to a participant.

I am convinced that he just believes that it is nothing but bad luck...and, while there is some of that, it is not why Purdue has not got there for 42 years.

This whole idea now that he is an offensive savant and that Purdue is an offensive juggernaut...and, that THAT is what makes them different...is simply not true, nor, more importantly, does it even matter if it was true.

He recruits guys that fit his system...get it...but, his system won't win in March...it did not work for/with his predecessor, and, it has not/will not work for him...his predecessor never acknowledged it, and, he has not (and shows no signs of doing so) either. Does not mean that he can't win a lot of games or hang banners occasionally for winning a regular season conference championship, but, he can't/won't hang one for a National Championship either...even if fans are patient for 17 more years...not until he gets guards that are difference-makers, and, I don't even know that he can...or, that he wants to really given his focus instead on 7' behemoths that literally nobody else in P5 college basketball focuses on.

 

[DAG10]

Actually, if he is screening for someone and there is nobody to help the defender getting screened it could lead to an open jumper or getting down hill

IF Purdue had someone that could consistently hit an open jumper OR get down hill...then, it would make much more sense, I agree.

 

[DAG10]

I was contrasting your take with those who complain about having the bigs too far from the basket. And you did not mention Tre. I don't know how many beautiful plays were set up by him starting away from the basket. My point was, I find it difficult to rationalize that where Edey and Williams played are the reason for the loss when one fewer turnover could have resulted in a 4-point turnaround -- and a win.

Huge difference with Tre doing though than Edey...thus, can't treat them the same, but, he does. Williams can handle the ball (some), and, can indeed find guys/make nice passes...Zach doing it is pretty much pointless aside of maybe dragging his guy out there, but, in that he literally can't do ANYTHING out there, there is no reason for his defender to go out there. If Purdue had a guy that could knock down a shot with consistency with a screen there in that his defender generally did not go out...I could see that, or, if it led to a mismatch with a screen with the guard getting the screen being able to then go at Zach's defender...again, could see that making some sense, but, WAY too many times it resulted in Zach standing there, taking a pass, and, handing it directly back to somebody...nothing at all accomplished.

Like say, I get what the thought behind it could be in some cases, but, the actual happenings...I guess I did not see that, or, at least much of it in Zach's case.

 

[tjreese]

For whatever reason the last couple of years, a lot of the conference teams played tight in the tournament - Iowa, Illinois, Wisconsin, and Purdue all played tight at times, IMO. I thought Michigan and Ohio State were better - tough ask to knock out Villanova.

I don't fault Painter's game plan as much as how he managed the game and the team overall this year - below his average on that, IMO and way below average Friday evening. For whatever reason, he could not get his message across this year - that's on him AND the players.

For Purdue to fire Matt Painter would be a gross overreaction to a season ending loss no matter how frustrating/disappointing......it's not a move reflective of what Purdue's position and mission as an institution of higher learning is about. Plus, if a mistake is made following that - who do you think is next? Painter's boss....

I get why many are fed up, and the criticism is valid in my view. If you're really questioning whether he should continue long-term then you have to build that toward the next extension......goodness, let the next couple of recruiting classes get going and see what happens over the next several seasons.

As for this season, it was a very very good team.....had a chance to be great but couldn't do it.....ironically, Purdue got some help in the conference season, in the BTT, and in the East Region bracket - and still came up short at every stage. Each team has it's own unique characteristics, but I do think this season and some of the issues were more unique to this team particularly - some of it was unexpected because I do think they were a close knit team.....but they just never got over that final hurdle of consistency.....and it ultimately did them in.

I know people abhor patience in sports and in the internet age.....but Matt Painter has earned a little more time in my view.

JMHO

ok.....let me have it.......

Matt is not on a hot seat and has no risk of being fired as you said. So far I've not seen any of those that coached criticize Matt since many understand the game takes on a life of its own. I just listened to North Carolina coach say it wasn't coaching but the players. Truth is coaching is in play, but execution is always more important that the particulars. I feel pretty confident that if the games were starting this week and all the coaches did the same thing, the results would be different. Some of the takes in the forum were outrageous. Some contradictory.

Some of the differences I may have with what went on are my own, but I would be a fool to assume mine are right just because I hold them. I'm not at practice, I don't know the game plan and don't know the specifics for players and so how would I have an informed opinion? Others just think they are right, not knowing what they don't know.

I've mention many times that I prefer two large 4s instead of a huge 5, but also see the value in a huge 5 for Matt who is analytically driven. I've also mention concerns for the analytics in the data..

One theme that was common was that Matt was stubborn which is crazy. Some apparently can't grasp that Matt disagrees with those views not that he is stubborn. Attack his views rather than just say he is stubborn...that is crazy. Others say he doesn't adjust. Okay, if your driven by analytics, do you hold to the statistics? If I roll two dice and roll a nine knowing full well the average is 7, do I now believe that 9 is the most likely outcome? Do I change things and abandon my 7 or is 7 still the most likely outcome? What if the next rolls are 6, 3, 11...do I think 7 will win be next? Do you stay too long riding the statistics or do you abandon them and not be so predictable? I understand what and why I just have a personal opinion that coaching like teaching is an art and that feel for the numbers might get overridden at times.

Few teachers in any school have their students do as well as they should and nobody is trying to prevent their success. FWIW I also prefer a bit more discipline, but others don't share my views. Who is right...who is wrong?

I was as frustrated as any many times this year and after the tourney loss. However, I know what I don't know and reluctant to blame coaching...and wouldn't have been as analytically driven as most want either. Fans can be fickle?

 

[tjreese]

IF Purdue had someone that could consistently hit an open jumper OR get down hill...then, it would make much more sense, I agree.

Jaden could get downhill and Eric and Sasha were capable of hitting a jump shot as would Isaiah having the extra time with two offensive players...one a consistent screener could hit a jumper ad well. Actually, that is what I wanted Nojel to do as well...be a screener just to bring his defender out a bit or just keep screening until players are hitting the jumpers

 

[BoilerAndy]

Huge difference with Tre doing though than Edey...thus, can't treat them the same, but, he does. Williams can handle the ball (some), and, can indeed find guys/make nice passes...Zach doing it is pretty much pointless aside of maybe dragging his guy out there, but, in that he literally can't do ANYTHING out there, there is no reason for his defender to go out there. If Purdue had a guy that could knock down a shot with consistency with a screen there in that his defender generally did not go out...I could see that, or, if it led to a mismatch with a screen with the guard getting the screen being able to then go at Zach's defender...again, could see that making some sense, but, WAY too many times it resulted in Zach standing there, taking a pass, and, handing it directly back to somebody...nothing at all accomplished.

Like say, I get what the thought behind it could be in some cases, but, the actual happenings...I guess I did not see that, or, at least much of it in Zach's case.

Edey had a rare bad game. And so did Ivey. But even bad games from those guys should have resulted in a win.

What I have seen all season is this: Purdue has won several close games with very high turnovers. Most of those games they won because they were hitting their 3's well enough to overcome lost possessions. Big wins seemed to give them a sense that turnovers weren't important. The games they lost resulted from high turnovers and low 3-pt shooting %. Against even mediocre teams, you can win with one flaw, but not both. It's why it always shocked me in those games where Purdue had a big advantage in rebounding, but took fewer shots.

I haven't looked, but I would not be surprised if this team didn't have the highest turnover rate of any in the Painter era.

 

[DAG10]

Edey had a rare bad game. And so did Ivey. But even bad games from those guys should have resulted in a win.

What I have seen all season is this: Purdue has won several close games with very high turnovers. Most of those games they won because they were hitting their 3's well enough to overcome lost possessions. Big wins seemed to give them a sense that turnovers weren't important. The games they lost resulted from high turnovers and low 3-pt shooting %. Against even mediocre teams, you can win with one flaw, but not both. It's why it always shocked me in those games where Purdue had a big advantage in rebounding, but took fewer shots.

I haven't looked, but I would not be surprised if this team didn't have the highest turnover rate of any in the Painter era.

Agree with everything here, except, Edey had a number of tough games down the stretch and against teams with smaller/more athletic/physical bigs (more so when they were allowed to be physical...despite his own size, Edey is not good at all at finishing through contact or not getting pushed off of the block yet).

Regardless, even with it, and, with Ivey being bad, Purdue STILL was more than capable of winning that game, and, absolutely should have...turnovers were the ultimate key, but, poor 3-point shooting compounded that.

 

[johnboiler123]

I was contrasting your take with those who complain about having the bigs too far from the basket. And you did not mention Tre. I don't know how many beautiful plays were set up by him starting away from the basket. My point was, I find it difficult to rationalize that where Edey and Williams played are the reason for the loss when one fewer turnover could have resulted in a 4-point turnaround -- and a win.

Didn’t mention Tré because like you mentioned, he was actually a threat to make things happen away from the basket

 

[tjreese]

Agree with everything here, except, Edey had a number of tough games down the stretch and against teams with smaller/more athletic/physical bigs (more so when they were allowed to be physical...despite his own size, Edey is not good at all at finishing through contact or not getting pushed off of the block yet).

Regardless, even with it, and, with Ivey being bad, Purdue STILL was more than capable of winning that game, and, absolutely should have...turnovers were the ultimate key, but, poor 3-point shooting compounded that.

I think Zach could help himself by leaning in a bit and taking up space. I was surprised TJD didn't block a few of his soft shots with space. I also won't be surprised if Purdue 2 years from now is better than this years team

 

[DAG10]

I think Zach could help himself by leaning in a bit and taking up space. I was surprised TJD didn't block a few of his soft shots with space. I also won't be surprised if Purdue 2 years from now is better than this years team

Zach just needs to get stronger and more physical...and, I believe that he will.

I am not knocking him at all...the progress that kid has made in what to this point is a very short basketball career is amazing, and, the progress from last year to this year, equally so. Kid works hard and wants to be really good, and, need to have that for it to even be possible.

He will be even better and more dominant a year from now, and, to your point...hits his stride in 2 years.

I guess I could get on the same page with you for two years from now...but, only if they have someone that proves that they can knock down 3's, either Colvin or Gibbs-Lawhorn are Ivey-esque, the other (or another guard) is able to create and penetrate, AND, they are better defensively...as I type that, it is a lot of "ifs", but, at the same time...possible as well I guess.

 

[pubill]

Ivey played himself out of a few million dollars.

Nope.

 

[pubill]

My point was that coach Painter put Ivey in the drivers seat (after MLK game at Illinois) and it started spinning out of control and finally crashed in a total loss last night. Ivey currently did not have the basketball skills to be driving the offense.

Who on this team other than him did?

 

[pubill]

Did any of them pout, not put in a full defensive effort, etc. I don't recall Smith or Holmgren doing that. Time will tell, but I would not be surprised in Ivey falls out of the Top 5

Holmgren's attitude was suspect in their last game.

 

[tjreese]

Zach just needs to get stronger and more physical...and, I believe that he will.

I am not knocking him at all...the progress that kid has made in what to this point is a very short basketball career is amazing, and, the progress from last year to this year, equally so. Kid works hard and wants to be really good, and, need to have that for it to even be possible.

He will be even better and more dominant a year from now, and, to your point...hits his stride in 2 years.

I guess I could get on the same page with you for two years from now...but, only if they have someone that proves that they can knock down 3's, either Colvin or Gibbs-Lawhorn are Ivey-esque, the other (or another guard) is able to create and penetrate, AND, they are better defensively...as I type that, it is a lot of "ifs", but, at the same time...possible as well I guess.

Never know, but I'm optimistic. Sophs are seniors. Caleb is a junior. Waddell and Trey are red shirt sophomore. Braden, Fletcher, Camden are Sophs...Berg a soph or redshirt freshman and completely different than Zach...if strong enough...with Colvin and Gibbs freshmen. It's up to the kids.

 

[TwinDegrees2]

Nope.

Okay, playing like shit on your most important game gets you paid more. Wish I'd have known that earlier.

 

[PurdueDave]

Making my point once again. Thank you.

I get that, but I previously listed 6 teams in the Big that spent most the season in the top 16 and none went past the sweet 16. Even if you were 100% correct in all you think on Purdue that leaves 5 other teams. Same result, different players, different defensive approaches. Offensively, Maryland spent a lot of time with 5 out, IU with 3 out, Purdue with 4 out, Rutgers a lot of one on one and so a few differences on offensive approaches as well. Don't see a lot of pressing in the Big and unaware of it being a problem for the Big teams in the tourney. The Big shared some variables and were different in others, but for a conference considered to have a lot of teams that were in the top 16 to not have a single team advance past the sweet 16 sure lumps a lot of different coaches, players and teams into the same loss column

Okay, playing like shit on your most important game gets you paid more. Wish I'd have known that earlier.

Come on now, it was all Painter's bad game plan. Ivey had no choice but to play bad. Surely an NBA talent wouldn't play poorly in his biggest game of the year. Darn you painter!

 

[New Pal Boiler]

Did any of them pout, not put in a full defensive effort, etc. I don't recall Smith or Holmgren doing that. Time will tell, but I would not be surprised in Ivey falls out of the Top 5

You got video proof of him pouting or not putting in a full defensive effort?

 

[tjreese]

Come on now, it was all Painter's bad game plan. Ivey had no choice but to play bad. Surely an NBA talent wouldn't play poorly in his biggest game of the year. Darn you painter!

The coach is always an easy target. Are there things I might have desired different? Yes, but they were pale in comparison to executing what was there to do.

 

[Born Boiler]

Consider what a bad finish against Sister Jean & Co. did for a fellow named Ayo Dosunmu. Sound familiar? Someone with the same accolades and the same assets at the same position? Actually with superior numbers playing for a better team against the same Big Ten opponents.

Read the March 15 feature about Ayo by ESPN …

“WHEN DOSUNMU DECLARED for the NBA draft last April, he was the No. 22-ranked prospect in the ESPN 100. He was a lottery pick in mock drafts from ESPN's Jonathan Givony and Mike Schmitz.

“The accolades he accrued in college spoke for themselves: He was a consensus first-team All-American, a winner of the Bob Cousy Award (given to the nation's top point guard) and led Illinois to a No. 1 seed in the NCAA tournament for the first time in 16 years.

“But after an underwhelming performance in the Big Ten tournament and Illinois' early exit in the NCAA tournament, teams began to sour on him. Then, thinking his status as a first-round pick was secure, Dosunmu sat out much of the pre-draft process, including much of the NBA combine. Other more visible prospects, such as Joshua Primo (No. 12), Quentin Grimes (No. 25) and Bones Hyland (No. 26), all of whom play the same position, rose in front of him.”

So, making a long story short, he fell on draft night all the way into the second round … to 38th … going to his hometown Bulls by virtue of his interview with them. He’s since done something very few second-rounders ever do -- stick and star. For a lot less money.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id...r-supercharging-chicago-bulls-back-contention

 

[New Pal Boiler]

Consider what a bad finish against Sister Jean & Co. did for a fellow named Ayo Dosunmu. Sound familiar? Someone with the same accolades and the same assets at the same position? Actually with superior numbers playing for a better team against the same Big Ten opponents.

Read the March 15 feature about Ayo by ESPN …

“WHEN DOSUNMU DECLARED for the NBA draft last April, he was the No. 22-ranked prospect in the ESPN 100. He was a lottery pick in mock drafts from ESPN's Jonathan Givony and Mike Schmitz.

“The accolades he accrued in college spoke for themselves: He was a consensus first-team All-American, a winner of the Bob Cousy Award (given to the nation's top point guard) and led Illinois to a No. 1 seed in the NCAA tournament for the first time in 16 years.

“But after an underwhelming performance in the Big Ten tournament and Illinois' early exit in the NCAA tournament, teams began to sour on him. Then, thinking his status as a first-round pick was secure, Dosunmu sat out much of the pre-draft process, including much of the NBA combine. Other more visible prospects, such as Joshua Primo (No. 12), Quentin Grimes (No. 25) and Bones Hyland (No. 26), all of whom play the same position, rose in front of him.”

So, making a long story short, he fell on draft night all the way into the second round … to 38th … going to his hometown Bulls by virtue of his interview with them. He’s since done something very few second-rounders ever do -- stick and star. For a lot less money.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id...r-supercharging-chicago-bulls-back-contention

He’s not the athlete that Jaden is. Apples and oranges.

 

[DAG10]

Consider what a bad finish against Sister Jean & Co. did for a fellow named Ayo Dosunmu. Sound familiar? Someone with the same accolades and the same assets at the same position? Actually with superior numbers playing for a better team against the same Big Ten opponents.

Read the March 15 feature about Ayo by ESPN …

“WHEN DOSUNMU DECLARED for the NBA draft last April, he was the No. 22-ranked prospect in the ESPN 100. He was a lottery pick in mock drafts from ESPN's Jonathan Givony and Mike Schmitz.

“The accolades he accrued in college spoke for themselves: He was a consensus first-team All-American, a winner of the Bob Cousy Award (given to the nation's top point guard) and led Illinois to a No. 1 seed in the NCAA tournament for the first time in 16 years.

“But after an underwhelming performance in the Big Ten tournament and Illinois' early exit in the NCAA tournament, teams began to sour on him. Then, thinking his status as a first-round pick was secure, Dosunmu sat out much of the pre-draft process, including much of the NBA combine. Other more visible prospects, such as Joshua Primo (No. 12), Quentin Grimes (No. 25) and Bones Hyland (No. 26), all of whom play the same position, rose in front of him.”

So, making a long story short, he fell on draft night all the way into the second round … to 38th … going to his hometown Bulls by virtue of his interview with them. He’s since done something very few second-rounders ever do -- stick and star. For a lot less money.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id...r-supercharging-chicago-bulls-back-contention

A couple of things...how did his stock drop in April? If it was because of BTT and NCAA as alleged, his stock would have already dropped, so, that does not add up.

And, there is the obvious...he was never a projected top-5 pick either...he was a fringe lottery pick at best, and, a late first-rounder most likely...because he has nowhere near the athletic ability that Ivey does.

 

[Born Boiler]

He’s not the athlete that Jaden is. Apples and oranges.

Right. He isn’t. He was and is superior.

 

[New Pal Boiler]

Right. He isn’t. He was and is superior.

LOL. Literally no one in the NBA thinks Ayo is a better athlete than Ivey.

$50 charity bet that Jaden goes top 10?

 

[Born Boiler]

A couple of things...how did his stock drop in April? If it was because of BTT and NCAA as alleged, his stock would have already dropped, so, that does not add up.

And, there is the obvious...he was never a projected top-5 pick either...he was a fringe lottery pick at best, and, a late first-rounder most likely...because he has nowhere near the athletic ability that Ivey does.

LOL. Literally no one in the NBA thinks Ayo is a better athlete than Ivey.

$50 charity bet that Jaden goes top 10?

First-team All-American vs. second team.
USA Today National Player of the Year and Bob Cousy winner vs. also-ran.

Dosunmu scored more, shot much better, both overall and from three, passed better, handled better, defended better, played better for a better team.

But he dropped after flops.

 

[New Pal Boiler]

First-team All-American vs. second team.
USA Today National Player of the Year and Bob Cousy winner vs. also-ran.

Dosunmu scored more, shot much better, both overall and from three, passed better, handled better, defended better, played better for a better team.

But he dropped after flops.

No one in the NBA cares about any of this. $50 bet or no?