Is this the worst political hit-job ever?
- Thread starter ecouch
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I can assure you that in the central part of Illinois, where I am located, the "boys will be boys" response to "grabbiness", let alone the level alleged by Ford, is passe.
Please provide the name of a 17 year old kid who was convicted of a crime for doing nothing more than unsuccessfully attempting to remove clothing of another teenager at a drunken high school party.
1. That wasn't your scenario to begin.
2. In most circumstances such as you now describe involving 17 and 15 y/o they are treated in the juvenile system.
3. I would never refer a specific name in this type of setting.
Believe what you want. That is your prerogative. I have practiced criminal law for nearly 45 years and disagree with your assertion.
You are free to continue to live with your antiquated views of propriety but the hypocrisy of "law and order" advocates who seem to justify this type of thinking appals me. I am not commenting one way or the other on Kavanaugh by this reply. That situation will go as it goes. Rather, my comments have to do with the concept that somehow this entire "grab em by" the whatever view is acceptable in a civilized society. How pathetic.
2. In most circumstances such as you now describe involving 17 and 15 y/o they are treated in the juvenile system.
3. I would never refer a specific name in this type of setting.
Believe what you want. That is your prerogative. I have practiced criminal law for nearly 45 years and disagree with your assertion.
You are free to continue to live with your antiquated views of propriety but the hypocrisy of "law and order" advocates who seem to justify this type of thinking appals me. I am not commenting one way or the other on Kavanaugh by this reply. That situation will go as it goes. Rather, my comments have to do with the concept that somehow this entire "grab em by" the whatever view is acceptable in a civilized society. How pathetic.
You've practiced criminal law for 45 years and you can't cite one case in which a high school kid was convicted of what Kavanaugh is alleged to have done? Interesting.
Just be honest. Everyone knows no one has ever been convicted of crime for doing what Ford alleges happened in her letter. He didn't strike her, he didn't threaten her, he unsuccessfully attempted to remove some of her clothing during a drunken high school party. The kid would've never been arrested and certainly no prosecutor would've brought charges.
Unless you've always asked your partner if it was OK to remove his clothing then you've done exactly what she alleges Kavanaugh did.
I think the times have changed drastically and behavior that might have passed without incident would not be accepted today. Also, a lot of the people who have lost jobs in the recent "me too" movement did not do anything as serious as is alleged in this case where the alleged victim feared for her life. However, the main point that I am trying to make is the enormous change that has occurred in our society in the last decade with regard to acceptable male/female behavior.
Help me out here Beth - what is she alleging he did that is worse than anyone who lost their job in the me too movement?
Remember, just because someone thinks their life is in danger doesn't mean that it actually was and that the other person has committed a crime. Her letter claims he unsuccessfully attempted to remove her clothes during a drunken teenage party. He wasn't in a position of power over her (like Weinstein was over the actresses he was "interviewing" for jobs.) There was no sex. Neither had their clothes off.
Ummmm….Yes. That's why they are called "Witnesses". The Plaintiff has named somebody as a witness. A witness is a person that can add details to a story to provide unbiased corroboration to a narrative.
You seem to indicate that unknown day / location is a disqualifier for their testimony. It's been 30 years since high school for me. I can tell you every party I went to, probably within a two month window but not the exact date. I can tell you "why" there was a party each time, but I would have to do hours of research to give you an address for half of them at best. Here's the thing though: I can tell you at least 6 to 8 people that were at each of those parties and I can describe the rooms those parties took place. I can tell you about some of the actions of the people at those parties (Colleen dancing on top of a grand Piano; Jason making out with a girl that he didn't know his best friend Keith had been crushing on for years and a fight ensued; Heidi thinking the bonfire was getting low so she goes into the shed and grabs the gas can and pours a little on; losing my eyebrows at a bonfire party
; Candice trying unsuccessfully for people to play spin the bottle with her; Jenna the Swedish foreign exchange student teaching people how to give proper backrubs; Charlie failing miserably at tapping the keg). Every person I just mentioned is not someone I would consider a friend and haven't seen them in 25 years (well, OK, I dated the girl who threw gas on the bonfire.....long story).The point being, things stick in your memory years later quite easily. It is EASILY possible that someone can remember a party that Ford was at and can remember a detail about the color of the couch or what flavor the spiked punch was. At this point in time, Ford says the incident happened and Kavanaugh says he was never even at a party with her. That is a pretty wide gulf in narrative. If a witness can come forward that puts both of them in a room together, that alone can go a long way in providing credibility to her story.
I am not a lawyer, and someone who practices law can step in and correct me, but this is not a criminal investigation. I am not sure that they could bring charges against Kavanaugh even if Mr. Judge were to testify "Yup, we did it and the bitch deserved it.", at least not here before the Judiciary committee. Maybe charges could be brought up later (Civil case?). I have no idea if this situation has a statute of limitations. Either way, This is a character / morals investigation. If this alleged incident took place, does that disqualify this man for a job on the Supreme Court? Therefore, I am not sure if this is the same thing as a court case where you have to "prove" your innocence. At best, anything that comes out of this is that it will prove someone is lying (or, at least is lying but doesn't know they are lying.....we are talking about a party where alcohol was involved). You are not going to be able to determine that without a witness.
For the record - I don't believe this statement so I stopped reading your post. Unless you only went to a couple of parties in high school.
In this day and age, if what she says is true, many men have been taken down by MeToo for what I would deem as a "Less serious" action.
John Copley Stage director at the Metropolitan Opera - Fired for making a sexually charged remark.
Wayne Pacelle Chief executive of the Humane Society - Resigned after sexually harassing three women and forced kissing.
Patrick Meehan U.S. representative for Pennsylvania - Removed from House Ethics Committee and will not seek reelection for sexual harassment of a former aide.
James Rosen Washington correspondent at Fox News - Resigned after sexual harassment of three women.
Trent Franks U.S. representative for Arizona - Resigned after asking two women to be surrogates to bear his child.
Ruben Kihuen U.S. representative for Nevada - Will not seek reelection for unwanted sexual propositions.
Stephen Bittel Florida Democratic Party chairman - Resigned after sexually inappropriate comments and behavior.
I found that with 10 minutes of research, and there are plenty more. Regardless of what anyone's personal beliefs are as to where the line should be on appropriate / inappropriate, the current Metoo movement is not something to flippantly write off.
Correct if I'm wrong but aren't all of those men in positions of power and thus that is the real issue?
Whoever it was that supposedly tried to take Ford's bathing suit off was 17.
Believe what you want.
Party at Heidi's house - August 1990
Party at Janice's house.- October 1990
Party at Keith's house - June / July 1991
Party at some Brownstone apartment (Charlie's friend) - June / July 1991
Party at Ben's house - April 1992
Party at some guys house I don't know - Julyish 1992 (that's the one with Colleen on the Piano).
I will freely admit that I am a nerd and didn't get inebriated every week at a party. If someone were to come to me and ask "Do you remember that party at John's where Beth danced the Macharena?", maybe that will trigger some memory in me of a party I had forgotten, but the above pretty well covers it.
So you now have a choice as to believe me and engage in the discussion or continue to erroneously believe I am lying. The point is still valid. I have memories of the parties I attended in High School even though I couldn't tell you the exact date or location of a single one of them. I am willing to go to the stand and testify to the events of those parties. That's how testimony works.
you have cited your daughter in previous examples/stories.
IF this were your daughter in this particular scenario, im curious what your reaction/advice would be to her...
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It would never happen. Raise your girls right and they would never be in a house with no adults getting drunk with 4 boys...at age 15! smdh.
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….and that is relevant how? You asked "What is she alleging he did that is worse than anyone who lost their job to the me too movement?" She is alleging that a 17 year old male assaulted / attempted battery by forcibly trying to remove her clothes. The legal definition of assault is "Assault: (also called attempted battery) is a threat or physical act that creates a reasonable apprehension of imminent harmful or offensive contact, whereas battery is a physical act that results in that harmful or offensive contact." The act she alleges occurred fits this definition. While the accused is technically a minor, I can almost guarantee that there are cases where a 17 year old was tried as an adult for assault.
You asked for references. I provided them. The references that are easily researchable are going to involve higher profile men in positions of power. If you are suggesting that the only reason these men were forced out of their jobs is BECAUSE they have positions of power, then I believe you are wrong. Men get fired for sexual misconduct all the time. An intern at the office I worked at two years ago was fired for imitating a blow job at a secretary (it was his second offense, as I recall, something happened previously that had earned him a warning first).
Again, this is not a trial we are talking about. It's essentially an overly long (and extremely bickering) job interview. One can say that 30 years ago was a different time and that high school kids did many things that are not acceptable in this current climate, and that is an accurate statement. The difference is that this is an interview for literally one of the most important jobs in the world. While I do not expect all the Supreme Court nominees to be actual Saints who have never had a single alcoholic beverage and have never uttered a curse word, there are actions that a person may have done that may be enough for me to say "Yeah, you're a better person now than you were 30 years ago, but there might still be better options out there." The severity of this incident may cross that line. This could be a high school kid trying to cop a feel, or it could be attempted rape. The former would not disqualify him in my mind. The latter would. We'll probably never know for sure which it was.
I am not an expert but I think what is upsetting to people is that she was
1. 15 years old; 2. adolescent boys are very strong; 3. they were allegedly very drunk and she was lucky to escape as 2 adolescent boys together pose a greater threat [this is true with young drivers also and why there are limits on the number of adolescents in a car] That kind of a situation would be almost impossible for even an adult woman. It would certainly traumatize me and I honestly believe that most males would not behave like that.
Beth - you always seem to play things close to the vest so I'm not sure where you stand on this issue. I did find it interesting that I spoke with my mother last night and she was really fired up about it. Thinks this all about nothing. She said she spoke to a couple of her sisters and they agreed.
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Should we then conclude that Brett was not raised right because he was a 17 year old getting drunk in a house trying to take the clothes off of a 15 year old (allegedly)?
ideally no.
but sometimes a situation may be different than you think, and/or unfold differently than expected.
remember that same logic - when trump winning 'would never happen'
Only liberals who surround themselves with like-minded people thought he had no chance.
The allegations put forward are, per NYT, this
I understand that you feel that you may have insight as to the prosecutorial likelihood in such a setting.
I disagree.
So, this morning while in court, I provided the above scenario separately to 5 felony prosecutors with between 15 and 40 years experience each, and explained the general nature of this thread.
Each indicated that if confronted with a witness willing to testify to the above (and not dealing with the issues of the Kavanaugh case as to the staleness and recollection issues of it, but only based upon on a fairly recent complaint as set out above by a willing witness) that he/she would certainly initiate a prosecution.
So, I guess we will just have to disagree based upon our relative informational bases.
Sorry, but I had as many, and maybe a bit more of right of center Republican friends have the opinion than my liberal friends.
Lol. So now you are blaming her parents.
Consider yourself blessed if your daughter does everything the way you want her to.
But you still are ignoring the reality for many families.
You do realize this is the equivalent of someone saying "NAH NAH NAH NAH" loudly while sticking their fingers in their ears.
That's kinda how debates work. Someone presents their argument and then provides proof that supports their claim. The opposition then either presents proof that supports that side or provides information that refutes the original party's information.
What we've gotten from you is essentially "You're a liar, I don't believe you." and "I didn't listen to what you just said."
That's not a very compelling argument.
I have two daughters and yes I'm blessed but my wife and I deserves some credit for the people they are. Having children who make good decisions usually doesn't happen by accident.
Nope - I just know when there's no point to continue reading. If you don't understand the difference in all of your examples and two drunk teenagers then I can't help you.
One thing that seems to be missing in this discussion is that both the victim and the perpetrator were attending prep schools and were, therefore, away from their homes and their parents. I think that adolescents do things when in the company of other adolescents and out of their parents "reach" that they would not do if those conditions did not exist. Apparently, from what I have read, the prep schools were near each other????
I've read the letter and it says nothing about anyone grinding their body against hers. Why would the NYT feel the need to embellish her story?
Hmmm - I do think that women from different generations see this issue in profoundly different ways. I am sometimes surprised at the reaction of young women to things that I see completely differently. I suspect this is also true of men. The rules changed and the culture changed in a short space of time.
As to my personal reaction to what is going on, I just honestly do not know what to believe/think. I try very hard to keep an open mind and evaluate information dispassionately. Every day something new comes out - today it was about the extent of partying and the consumption of alcohol at these prep schools. Who knew? A big surprise to me!
The partying and alcohol/drug use is not limited to prep schools. Its at every school. As my daughters say when describing some of their classmates, "Oh, they're in the party crowd." Party = alcohol, drugs, or both. In fact, the party group at the high school my youngest attends just got broken up by the parents because the kids were putting pictures of the parties on their story - which I think refers to snapchat. One of the parents saw the pictures and alerted the other parents. Party over!
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I don't know that its description is limited to her letter. Nonetheless, I don't think that is a make or break issue.
Just saying that the scenario you presented to your prosecutor friends was not what she has said happened.
That is still not a compelling argument. That is you still you essentially running away and not engaging the conversation. Please explain to me the difference.
Not sure if you know this, but sexual harassment, which is what many of the cited examples lost their job from (and again, that was after a very brief search) is NOT a crime. Only if it progresses to sexual assault which involves unwanted touching does it then fall into the realm of a chargeable crime. Workplaces have created policies to address sexual harassment which involve punitive damages and required counseling. It does not lead to incarceration.
One of those examples I cited was a guy essentially SAYING "Hey, I want to have sex with you. You should have sex with me." He was forced to resign.
Kavanaugh has been accused of PHYSICALLY restraining a girl and trying to remove her clothing. That IS a chargeable crime, even at age 17.
So, yeah. Please explain to me the difference.
Second, you've completely ignored the first argument where we discussed witnesses and you accused me of lying with no evidence.
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