Are you aware that Libertarians favor open borders? Everyone is free to come and go as they please. No CBP. No ICE. No visas. No passports. No government involvement at all.
Libertarian Policy
DeSantis channels his inner Trump
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Libertarian Policy
Or evolution or geology or astronomy. Should those subjects also not be taught?
Oh no! I don't agree with the "official" party on one thing, so I can't be Libertarian right?
No government involement at all? No. That's not true... at all.
Actually, I do agree with most of what is in there. I think that the immigration process should be easier for qualified people. I just don't believe in open borders. In order for any of those ideas to make sense, you absolutely cannot have any social programs.
You're comparing things that you can find empirical evidence for in the real world vs what is in someone's head. Nobody can know what is in someone elses head besides that person, but they can be influenced to think things that they otherwise wouldn't if they are influenced at a young age.
I believe the certain folks would refer to this action by DeSantis as cancel culture, which they are vehemently opposed to.
I didn't say you can't be Libertation. That's your distortion of my comment.
Here are passages from the link that I posted above:
"Libertarians believe that people should be able to travel freely as long as they are peaceful. We welcome immigrants who come seeking a better life."
"Libertarians do not support classifying undocumented immigrants as criminals."
Sorry pat, I don’t linger on here waiting for you to respond. Apologies if I tagged you wrong regarding Disney. It was most likely meant for potato brain, although y’all are pretty interchangeable at this point. 🤷🏻♂️
The sad part is that it is, of course, not cancel culture. It is (in effect) voting with your wallet, and there will be consequences of that change in policy.
Right. This “special treatment” was in place with disney for DECADES. Disney IS Florida is many ways and has brought billions of tourist dollars into the state. It’s as if the folks happy that DeSantis is taking some kind of “stand” here fail to understand just how much political influence a Disney has in the state. It’s a childish reaction by DeSantis and nothing more.
Depends upon your perspective. Disney foolishly came out in opposition to a law that is overwhelmingly popular in Florida, especially among parents. It looks like a very smart political move by DeSantis.
‘Don’t Say Gay’ Is Popular? You Don’t Say
One poll shows backing from suburbs, parents and . . . Democrats.
By the Wall Street Journal April 1, 2022 6:16 pm ETFlorida Gov. Ron DeSantis this week signed the education legislation that opponents have dubbed the “don’t say gay” law. It prohibits “classroom instruction” on “sexual orientation or gender identity” from kindergarten through the third grade. Polite opinion is almost unanimously against, but open your ears to the vox populi.
“When Americans are presented with the actual language of the new Florida law, it wins support by more than a two-to-one margin.” That’s from a new poll by Public Opinion Strategies. Overall, 61% of people said they supported the “don’t say gay” law, with 26% opposed.
Even more notable is the breadth of that sentiment. Democratic voters in the poll support the law 55% to 29%. Among suburban voters, which could be a decisive group for the midterm elections, it’s 60% to 30%. Parents: 67% to 24%. Biden voters: 53% to 30%. Respondents who “know someone LGBTQ”: 61% to 28%. Those figures might come as a shock to Florida’s progressive activists, including those who happen to work at Walt Disney.
No poll is dispositive, and the surveys aren’t unanimous. Ipsos asked Americans in mid-March if they agreed with barring “classroom lessons about sexual orientation or gender identity in elementary school.” It found 62% opposed. Perhaps the public has since learned more about Florida’s law, or maybe people distinguish between K-3 and “elementary school."
The way that Florida implements the legislation also could change minds. But so far the polling is mixed at worst. The current narrative around the “don’t say gay” law—that it’s needless cruelty to children, inflicted by Republican troglodytes—seems to be another example of how much the media and CEOs are out of touch with the public. Meantime, an Axios poll says Mr. DeSantis’s approval with Hispanics is up seven points since December.
A couple of things:
1. Pat and I have shifted from the LGBT issue specifically and are talking more generally about whether or not sex education should be in the curriculum at all. Topics of safe sex or the biological functions of the reproductive system, for instance, are just as empirical as evolution. But that doesn't stop people from having religious objections to the teaching of evolution. I don't see the difference in terms of why it's ok to teach evolution, even though it might conflict with religious beliefs, but it's not ok to teach sex ed, specifically because it might conflict with religious beliefs. Especially since the studies show that better and earlier sex ed leads to fewer unplanned pregnancies, fewer STIs, less dating violence, and less child sexual abuse.
2. You're engaged in the same grooming straw man. Teachers are not trying to make kids think they're gay or trans. Acknowledging to a kid the mere existence of gay and trans people will not influence them to become gay or trans themselves. However, maybe if kids knew that being gay or trans was a normal part of the natural variation among individuals of our species (which it scientifically is), those that it applies to might not think of themselves as "freaks" -- as they have been described in this thread by others -- and maybe can be mentally healthier. Maybe cishet kids will do just a little less bullying of gay or trans kids as they grow up. Trans people don't commit suicide at higher rates because they're trans, they commit suicide at higher rates because they are made to think they are broken.
And the bill doesn't say a word about heterosexual sex or the reaching of it. I suppose it might be covered elsewhere, but it shows this legislation is clearly targeted at the trans/LGBTQ issue.
So you again refuse to answer the question. You're so opposed to a law. But when I ask your reasoning behind your opposiition, you won't, or cant answer it...
So what does the law say that you are specifically opposed to? Everyone wants to be up in arms about the law. But I've heard no one lay out their reasoning as to why...
Sex ed is fine in schools, but if a parent wants to opt their kids out of it, I think they should be allowed to. Sex ed to teenagers is WAY different than telling young children about concepts that they can't even comprehend.
I highly doubt you can say that with absolute certainty. There are absolutely cases of young people that are pushed to believe they are trans and years later regret that they transitioned. It does young kids NO good to tell them of such things since again, they can't comprehend the complexities of it all. Many people struggle with many parts of their life and body, why add to the confusion and cause some false positives? Especially when the suicide rate is so high in the trans community. We're talking about kids age 5-9 according to the FL law. How is that unreasonable?
Kids of the ages that the FL bill are talking about would not have any of the issues of thinking they are freaks, etc. They are far too young to have such thoughts of sexual orientation.
That's just not true at all.
Sex Reassignment Doesn’t Work. Here Is the Evidence.
Sex “reassignment” doesn’t work. It’s impossible to “reassign” someone’s sex physically, and attempting to do so doesn’t produce good outcomes psychosocially.
www.heritage.org
If we're talking specifically about reproductive sex education from a biological standpoint, fine. Religious concerns would come into play around birth control and other morality aspects. And if we're being specific toward sex education as a biological reproductive aspect, how would there ever be any discussion about LGBT sexuality, as there's literally no biological reproductive aspects to it?
As I said in the beginning, my problem is the state trying to suppress free speech by punishing the speaker.......not so much with the law.
I'm not for teaching trans or LGBTQ sexuality to young children. It ridiculous.......and I have yet to see proof it's ACTUALLY HAPPENING. There will be an outlier here or there.......but of course that then becomes a norm when politics is involved. Same with CRT. Hell Youngkin got elected because of CRT in Virginia. This is cultural politics by DeSantis......he's just more clever about it than trump.
Was there an actual, existing, ongoing problem such that this law was needed? Not like what potato head believes. This could be considered a preemptive move, but the reality it was purely political for DeSantis. Just look around this thread and see who supports it.
Put it another way. What this clearly says is, act the way we (the state) wants you to act, and we will leave you alone. The exemption has nothing to do with anything other than it's the means to punish. If Disney had said nothing,......we wouldn't be here. So how is it not retaliatory?
The left has labeled it the Don't say gay" law. It's nothing of the kind. But I've read it.......and I wouldn't want to be a teacher in Florida trying to tightrope the line of what I can say.
You and others are fine with it because a pub did it and you agree with the policy. But this is the problem. It's unconstitutional.......and you are ignoring that most basic and important freedom because you agree with the first two points. That's where we are as a country and the pubs are as a party.
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Yes, I dislike an evil culture that lies to children and encourages people to live a lifestyle that also comes along with a 45% suicide attempt rate
What's unconstitutional about it? I couldn't say jack shit in a work environment to a woman that couldn't have been twisted and turned into a sexual harassment lawsuit. Is that also unconstitutional?
Anecdotes, if they exist, are not data.
1. Heritage - LOLThat's just not true at all.
Sex Reassignment Doesn’t Work. Here Is the Evidence.
Sex “reassignment” doesn’t work. It’s impossible to “reassign” someone’s sex physically, and attempting to do so doesn’t produce good outcomes psychosocially.
2. The only science actually presented in the article basically boils down to "the current studies are inconclusive," which is pretty unremarkable given the youth of the field of study. And he's only talking about one possible treatment (gender reassignment surgery) and comparing the outcomes to the general public (ie. suicide rate being 20x the general population). Shouldn't we compare outcomes to people who identify as trans but who DON'T get surgery in order to determine its effectiveness? As I look around for research on that, it seems to point in the direction that gender affirming treatments (generally, not just surgery) help.
Suicide risk in the UK trans population and the role of gender transition in decreasing suicidal ideation and suicide attempt | Emerald Insight
Suicide risk in the UK trans population and the role of gender transition in decreasing suicidal ideation and suicide attempt - Author: Louis Bailey, Sonja J. Ellis, Jay McNeil
www.emerald.com
Sex-reassignment surgery yields long-term mental health benefits, study finds
The longer ago a transgender person’s gender-affirming surgery, the less likely they are to suffer anxiety, depression or suicidal behavior, the study suggests.
www.nbcnews.com
Association Between Gender-Affirming Surgeries and Mental Health Outcomes
This study evaluates associations between gender-affirming surgeries and mental health outcomes, including psychological distress, substance use, and suicide risk.
jamanetwork.com
No. You just dislike people who don’t fit into your little white bread box. You wanting to call out and shame a segment of the population that already has a higher than average suicide rate is nothing more than piling on. And you do it because for some reason you enjoy it. If a 45% suicide rate actually bothered you, continuing to bash that group isn’t going to make the rate go down. This is basic humanity, of which you seem to have exactly none.
Disney said they don’t agree with the law, right? Isn’t that all they really said? So then tell me how this makes them woke or as others have said, makes them groomers or pedophiles or is teaching kids to be trans or gay (all are which incredibly asinine by the way).Depends upon your perspective. Disney foolishly came out in opposition to a law that is overwhelmingly popular in Florida, especially among parents. It looks like a very smart political move by DeSantis.
‘Don’t Say Gay’ Is Popular? You Don’t Say
One poll shows backing from suburbs, parents and . . . Democrats.
By the Wall Street Journal April 1, 2022 6:16 pm ET
Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis this week signed the education legislation that opponents have dubbed the “don’t say gay” law. It prohibits “classroom instruction” on “sexual orientation or gender identity” from kindergarten through the third grade. Polite opinion is almost unanimously against, but open your ears to the vox populi.
“When Americans are presented with the actual language of the new Florida law, it wins support by more than a two-to-one margin.” That’s from a new poll by Public Opinion Strategies. Overall, 61% of people said they supported the “don’t say gay” law, with 26% opposed.
Even more notable is the breadth of that sentiment. Democratic voters in the poll support the law 55% to 29%. Among suburban voters, which could be a decisive group for the midterm elections, it’s 60% to 30%. Parents: 67% to 24%. Biden voters: 53% to 30%. Respondents who “know someone LGBTQ”: 61% to 28%. Those figures might come as a shock to Florida’s progressive activists, including those who happen to work at Walt Disney.
No poll is dispositive, and the surveys aren’t unanimous. Ipsos asked Americans in mid-March if they agreed with barring “classroom lessons about sexual orientation or gender identity in elementary school.” It found 62% opposed. Perhaps the public has since learned more about Florida’s law, or maybe people distinguish between K-3 and “elementary school."
The way that Florida implements the legislation also could change minds. But so far the polling is mixed at worst. The current narrative around the “don’t say gay” law—that it’s needless cruelty to children, inflicted by Republican troglodytes—seems to be another example of how much the media and CEOs are out of touch with the public. Meantime, an Axios poll says Mr. DeSantis’s approval with Hispanics is up seven points since December.
Put another way, Disney is saying we don’t agree with a needless bill that attacks or can be perceived as attacking an already extremely vulnerable segment of the population.
Y’all act like trans folks just showed up yesterday. Yet you still went to Disney. So because Disney said hey yeah let’s not put folks through this, they’re pariahs?
The snowflake mentality displayed by many on the right is just astounding. If that’s something that pisses you off, then don’t go to Disney. Simple.
Ron DeSantis is a child, plain and simple.
What specifically do you oppose about the law? And how does the law, which specifies not talking about LGBT matters in schools "harass" members of the LGBT community, as you stated in another post here? Nobody is taking away your freedom to be a member of the LGBT community. Nobody is harassing you based on this law. Literally, no one is speaking about it. Why is that a problem?
I don't see how sex or birth control are moral questions, though I know a lot of religious people think they are.
I didn't say the biology of reproduction was the only topic, I offered it as an example. We know that people (heterosexual or otherwise) engage in sex in ways that have nothing to do with reproduction. It's part of the social nature of our species. If we're in agreement that people should learn about safe sex (I'm not sure that we are, but just for the sake of argument), shouldn't that be comprehensive to all the ways that we engage in sex?
And there are many who believe none of that belongs in school from a religious aspect...
My God, they are not trying to suppress free speech. The Disney woke remain as free as any Americans to run off at the mouth about any issue they please. They certainly did punish Disney for sticking their nose into the wrong side of an issue that only 26% of the people support and two thirds oppose. The CEO should be fired.
It isn't a "Don't say gay" law. It is a "Don’t confuse or indoctrinate 5-yr-olds with gender dysphoria" law.
Which they're free to believe, but that again brings the question of why the schools should honor that particular religious belief but not others, especially when religious schools and home schooling exist.
Why don't you stay on this point instead of other hypotheticals?
If DeSantis wants to take away Disney's exemption, that's fine. Do just what he did, go through the legislature, get it passed, no problem.
But he did in reaction to Disney's free expression of an opinion........they objected to the race and gender bill. He's said so himself. There was a clear and direct connection between Disney's objection and DeSantis punishing them. He wants them to shut up and not take a public position on the issue. Right? That's what he wants. How is that not attempting to suppress their right to free speech? Explain that to me.
Funny how no one can pray in school. But we get upset about not being able to talk about LGBT matters in elementary schools...
Everyone can pray in school. The school itself, as part of the government, cannot show preference to particular religions or to religion at all vs. non-religion. LGBT matters are not religious in nature.
You're the one who brought up the law being unconstitutional. So I ask the question. Why is it OK to talk about LGBT sexual matters in elementary school? But if I make a comment on how my coworkers hair looks nice, I'm sexually harassing someone at work? I'm not proposing we change anything in the workplace. But if we're going to prohibit sexual discussions in the workplace, why are we permitting them in school?
Disney should have said nothing. Do they speak out on illegal immigration, flying the Stars and Bars, school busing, women registering for the draft, Critical Race Theory, fracking? Let's face it, Disney screwed the pooch.
You sure about that?
Coach’s Prayers Prompt Supreme Court Test of Religious Freedom
Joseph Kennedy, a football coach at a public high school in Washington State, lost his job after praying on the 50-yard line after games.
"Sticking their nose into the wrong side of an issue"
The only thing they did was take a public position on the issue. They gave the freaking right to say whatever the fck they want. It's America right? In this case "sticking their nose into" something is SIMPLY EXPRESSING YOUR OPINION.
The wrong side according to who? You? DeSantis? By your explanation, Ron is right and Disney is wrong. But neither your geriatric ass nor DeSantis is God in this issue and gets to decide for everyone what is right and wrong.
Yes.You sure about that?
Coach’s Prayers Prompt Supreme Court Test of Religious Freedom
Joseph Kennedy, a football coach at a public high school in Washington State, lost his job after praying on the 50-yard line after games.www.nytimes.com
The legal question to be determined in the football story is whether or not his public prayer on school grounds at the end of a school-sponsored event constitutes an implied endorsement of religion by the school.
So then you're saying discussions of religion is banned in school? School officials can't have any part in the discussion of religion, right? But can have discussions on LGBT sexuality. See my point?
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