about the full court pressure and passing issues

[Schmedly_Whiplash]

Was it just a coincidence of teams that always apply pressure up the court OR is every team doing it to US specifically.
Because we still don't handle it especially well and it always makes me nervous.
Even if it's just to wear Braden out (possible) it's not good for this team to be sure.
Hoping that Matt agrees that this team plays better with a quicker tempo. That we HAVE to figure this out and start making teams pay a price for doing that. Namely pushing controlled breaks to the basket when our dribbler gets past the defender doing the pressure. Breaking a press and then letting the team set up their defense after you get it across is self defeating.
Secondly I'm not sure I can remember a team getting SO many passed tipped/stolen all game long. WHAT are we doing to telegraph our passed SO much that multiple defenders jump our passing lanes time after time. Could we get some open shots with fake passes?

 

[BCfanatic2020]

Was it just a coincidence of teams that always apply pressure up the court OR is every team doing it to US specifically.
Because we still don't handle it especially well and it always makes me nervous.
Even if it's just to wear Braden out (possible) it's not good for this team to be sure.
Hoping that Matt agrees that this team plays better with a quicker tempo. That we HAVE to figure this out and start making teams pay a price for doing that. Namely pushing controlled breaks to the basket when our dribbler gets past the defender doing the pressure. Breaking a press and then letting the team set up their defense after you get it across is self defeating.
Secondly I'm not sure I can remember a team getting SO many passed tipped/stolen all game long. WHAT are we doing to telegraph our passed SO much that multiple defenders jump our passing lanes time after time. Could we get some open shots with fake passes?

Not our biggest issue anymore with Jones

Edey creates a vacuum. No one player at the 4 threatens that space well. Heide to me is too light in the ass for the 4.

Loyer is not the combo of size and athleticism you need at the 3. Morton is not an offensive threat. Heide and Colvin are still young. This position may be solved by March. The 4 probably not

 

[Boiler Buck]

Heide to me is too light in the ass for the 4.

Now that might be the first time I heard it expressed like that. LOL

 

[BCfanatic2020]

Now that might be the first time I heard it expressed like that. LOL

True. 80s phrase. If he was 225 we might be on to something by March lol

 

[PaBoiler78]

Was it just a coincidence of teams that always apply pressure up the court OR is every team doing it to US specifically.
Because we still don't handle it especially well and it always makes me nervous.
Even if it's just to wear Braden out (possible) it's not good for this team to be sure.
Hoping that Matt agrees that this team plays better with a quicker tempo. That we HAVE to figure this out and start making teams pay a price for doing that. Namely pushing controlled breaks to the basket when our dribbler gets past the defender doing the pressure. Breaking a press and then letting the team set up their defense after you get it across is self defeating.
Secondly I'm not sure I can remember a team getting SO many passed tipped/stolen all game long. WHAT are we doing to telegraph our passed SO much that multiple defenders jump our passing lanes time after time. Could we get some open shots with fake passes?

I was a bit concerned w/ our transition D, they had like 6 wide open 3's in the 2nd half

 

[06boiler]

Still an issue because of lack of athleticism and players who can slash in the starting lineup. KR, Loyer and Gillis specifically. I noticed in the second half, half court offense, when we were not able to get the ball in to Edey, we just couldn't take them on 1 on 1 and drive, and had to settle for jump shots which we did not make and that let Marquette catch up. Secondly of course when the players outside of Smith were pressured, they made hasty passes to Zach and the passes got intercepted, meaning they were not comfortable keeping the dribble alive. One of them will need to be replaced for better results against pressure/press. The replacements would have to be either Colvin, Heide, or Furst. Of these Furst has most experience, and I thought did pretty well with pressure and working along side Edey. But I don't suppose he is going to help with creating offense when we can't get the ball inside. So it would likely have to be Heide/Colvin in place of Gillis and asking them to slash more and create their own shot in the half court, while doing a better job of not turning the ball over when pressured, which they are better equipped to do than Gillis.

 

[BCfanatic2020]

Still an issue because of lack of athleticism and players who can slash in the starting lineup. KR, Loyer and Gillis specifically. I noticed in the second half, half court offense, when we were not able to get the ball in to Edey, we just couldn't take them on 1 on 1 and drive, and had to settle for jump shots which we did not make and that let Marquette catch up. Secondly of course when the players outside of Smith were pressured, they made hasty passes to Zach and the passes got intercepted, meaning they were not comfortable keeping the dribble alive. One of them will need to be replaced for better results against pressure/press. The replacements would have to be either Colvin, Heide, or Furst. Of these Furst has most experience, and I thought did pretty well with pressure and working along side Edey. But I don't suppose he is going to help with creating offense when we can't get the ball inside. So it would likely have to be Heide/Colvin in place of Gillis and asking them to slash more and create their own shot in the half court, while doing a better job of not turning the ball over when pressured, which they are better equipped to do than Gillis.

Heide wil help this as he grows through the season no ?

 

[BoilerDaddy]

Was it just a coincidence of teams that always apply pressure up the court OR is every team doing it to US specifically.
Because we still don't handle it especially well and it always makes me nervous.
Even if it's just to wear Braden out (possible) it's not good for this team to be sure.
Hoping that Matt agrees that this team plays better with a quicker tempo. That we HAVE to figure this out and start making teams pay a price for doing that. Namely pushing controlled breaks to the basket when our dribbler gets past the defender doing the pressure. Breaking a press and then letting the team set up their defense after you get it across is self defeating.
Secondly I'm not sure I can remember a team getting SO many passed tipped/stolen all game long. WHAT are we doing to telegraph our passed SO much that multiple defenders jump our passing lanes time after time. Could we get some open shots with fake passes?

It wasn’t just Purdue. Purdue had 29 turnovers combined against Tennessee and Marquette. Kansas had 33 against the same two opponents. Those two teams are exceptional at creating havoc.

 

[Bleedinggoldandblack]

Still an issue because of lack of athleticism and players who can slash in the starting lineup. KR, Loyer and Gillis specifically. I noticed in the second half, half court offense, when we were not able to get the ball in to Edey, we just couldn't take them on 1 on 1 and drive, and had to settle for jump shots which we did not make and that let Marquette catch up. Secondly of course when the players outside of Smith were pressured, they made hasty passes to Zach and the passes got intercepted, meaning they were not comfortable keeping the dribble alive. One of them will need to be replaced for better results against pressure/press. The replacements would have to be either Colvin, Heide, or Furst. Of these Furst has most experience, and I thought did pretty well with pressure and working along side Edey. But I don't suppose he is going to help with creating offense when we can't get the ball inside. So it would likely have to be Heide/Colvin in place of Gillis and asking them to slash more and create their own shot in the half court, while doing a better job of not turning the ball over when pressured, which they are better equipped to do than Gillis.

Good overview

 

[tjreese]

Was it just a coincidence of teams that always apply pressure up the court OR is every team doing it to US specifically.
Because we still don't handle it especially well and it always makes me nervous.
Even if it's just to wear Braden out (possible) it's not good for this team to be sure.
Hoping that Matt agrees that this team plays better with a quicker tempo. That we HAVE to figure this out and start making teams pay a price for doing that. Namely pushing controlled breaks to the basket when our dribbler gets past the defender doing the pressure. Breaking a press and then letting the team set up their defense after you get it across is self defeating.
Secondly I'm not sure I can remember a team getting SO many passed tipped/stolen all game long. WHAT are we doing to telegraph our passed SO much that multiple defenders jump our passing lanes time after time. Could we get some open shots with fake passes?

Can you imagine how good Purdue would be without a shot clock? Purdue could take all the time they want to get the ball to Zach at the best time and he would be even more dominant. The shot clock makes it tougher for low post play and why you see fewer teams in the low post.

Anything that eats clock helps the D against Zach. Purdue has seen different zone presses, man press and zone presses they hope you go fast against since they are not applying pressure but want you to run into pressure. Pressure wears on Braden, but not as much this year and eating clock makes it harder to use Zach. Planning to make it difficult on Zach and Braden is not a bad plan

 

[Schmedly_Whiplash]

Still an issue because of lack of athleticism and players who can slash in the starting lineup. KR, Loyer and Gillis specifically. I noticed in the second half, half court offense, when we were not able to get the ball in to Edey, we just couldn't take them on 1 on 1 and drive, and had to settle for jump shots which we did not make and that let Marquette catch up. Secondly of course when the players outside of Smith were pressured, they made hasty passes to Zach and the passes got intercepted, meaning they were not comfortable keeping the dribble alive. One of them will need to be replaced for better results against pressure/press. The replacements would have to be either Colvin, Heide, or Furst. Of these Furst has most experience, and I thought did pretty well with pressure and working along side Edey. But I don't suppose he is going to help with creating offense when we can't get the ball inside. So it would likely have to be Heide/Colvin in place of Gillis and asking them to slash more and create their own shot in the half court, while doing a better job of not turning the ball over when pressured, which they are better equipped to do than Gillis.

No, the drop off in defense is just too severe at this point. You're taking your 2nd best defender off the court and putting a 'rookie' in there instead. I see way too much of what Mason brings to the floor to ignore it.

 

[Schmedly_Whiplash]

Can you imagine how good Purdue would be without a shot clock? Purdue could take all the time they want to get the ball to Zach at the best time and he would be even more dominant. The shot clock makes it tougher for low post play and why you see fewer teams in the low post.

Anything that eats clock helps the D against Zach. Purdue has seen different zone presses, man press and zone presses they hope you go fast against since they are not applying pressure but want you to run into pressure. Pressure wears on Braden, but not as much this year and eating clock makes it harder to use Zach. Planning to make it difficult on Zach and Braden is not a bad plan

I think this years team can and does play BETTER when they push the pace. Zach is fantastic, but if his role as a decoy makes this a better team then that's what they should go with.
What I see when we uptick is guys playing looser and shooting the shots as they come. Not dreading being the guy forced to take the shot. Or force a pass to a well guarded Zach.
It might seem to be playing into their hands on the surface, but since they dont' know we CAN play that way and maybe be even better with less focus on throwing the ball into Zach, we can take what they give us and be even better.
When we look bad, when it's looking like last year, things are slowing way down and we are forcing passes to Zach in the paint when they are double and triple teaming him.
When we play faster they frequently don't have time to set up. And our guys just seem to be much looser and free'er playing when running the court and not force feeding Zach against set defenses.
What I saw in the 2nd half adjustments that worked so well is a lot of different things that all seem to be saying : play faster....................

 

[tjreese]

I think this years team can and does play BETTER when they push the pace. Zach is fantastic, but if his role as a decoy makes this a better team then that's what they should go with.
What I see when we uptick is guys playing looser and shooting the shots as they come. Not dreading being the guy forced to take the shot. Or force a pass to a well guarded Zach.
It might seem to be playing into their hands on the surface, but since they dont' know we CAN play that way and maybe be even better with less focus on throwing the ball into Zach, we can take what they give us and be even better.
When we look bad, when it's looking like last year, things are slowing way down and we are forcing passes to Zach in the paint when they are double and triple teaming him.
When we play faster they frequently don't have time to set up. And our guys just seem to be much looser and free'er playing when running the court and not force feeding Zach against set defenses.
What I saw in the 2nd half adjustments that worked so well is a lot of different things that all seem to be saying : play faster....................

I thought your question was why do teams press Purdue? If that was the question I tried to answer that in how it affects Zach and Braden and why teams would consider pressing Purdue. If that was not the question, but that you wondered why Purdue may do this or that against a press that is a bit different. Perhaps I should start at the beginning and see if I understood what I thought was a question why teams would want to press Purdue.

 

[titaniumbolt]

Still an issue because of lack of athleticism and players who can slash in the starting lineup. KR, Loyer and Gillis specifically. I noticed in the second half, half court offense, when we were not able to get the ball in to Edey, we just couldn't take them on 1 on 1 and drive, and had to settle for jump shots which we did not make and that let Marquette catch up. Secondly of course when the players outside of Smith were pressured, they made hasty passes to Zach and the passes got intercepted, meaning they were not comfortable keeping the dribble alive. One of them will need to be replaced for better results against pressure/press. The replacements would have to be either Colvin, Heide, or Furst. Of these Furst has most experience, and I thought did pretty well with pressure and working along side Edey. But I don't suppose he is going to help with creating offense when we can't get the ball inside. So it would likely have to be Heide/Colvin in place of Gillis and asking them to slash more and create their own shot in the half court, while doing a better job of not turning the ball over when pressured, which they are better equipped to do than Gillis.

The fate of this team rests in the development of Heide and Colvin over the next 3 months. I am not as optimistic as most here.

 

[Schmedly_Whiplash]

I thought your question was why do teams press Purdue? If that was the question I tried to answer that in how it affects Zach and Braden and why teams would consider pressing Purdue. If that was not the question, but that you wondered why Purdue may do this or that against a press that is a bit different. Perhaps I should start at the beginning and see if I understood what I thought was a question why teams would want to press Purdue.

Can you imagine how good Purdue would be without a shot clock? Purdue could take all the time they want to get the ball to Zach at the best time and he would be even more dominant

That post was responding to this mostly.

 

[Schmedly_Whiplash]

The fate of this team rests in the development of Heide and Colvin over the next 3 months. I am not as optimistic as most here.

the whole team playing faster like we have in the 2nd half of the last 2 games will accomplish the same thing. And Heide and Colvin fit into that too. SLowing down when other teams are speeding up has been a recipe for failure for 1.2 seasons now. This team at times looks awful when teams force us into shooting 3's by double/triple teaming Zach and the shooters seem to feel the pressure and don't make them.
How can we look so slow and make other teams look twice as fast as us? By playing slow. And hesitant. And feeling the pressure to make THAT shot. Make perfect passes to a guy fronted and backed, or they're going to get swiped is a fabulous way to make guys nervous.
They look awesome when they push the pace and everyone is running and the ball is ZIPPING from guy to guy and the shots come automatically in the flow of the game. (playing quickly -where we get leads)
Not a guy shooting under pressure as the shot clock winds down...... (playing slow - where they catch up)

KEEP the pedal to the floor with pace and USE the 10 deep we've got.

Oh, and Zach will see one on one defense when everyone else is active and moving and scoring.
He WILL get his and not get beat to sheet getting it.

 

[tjreese]

Can you imagine how good Purdue would be without a shot clock? Purdue could take all the time they want to get the ball to Zach at the best time and he would be even more dominant

That post was responding to this mostly.

Because I agree with many of your posts I was thinking about this last night a bit. If I'm correct, I tried to state why pressing would be a typically good approach against Purdue. I think you tried to state more that the reason was due to how Purdue plays against a press...typically. I think mine was a common thing no matter what kind of press or trapped was used against Purdue whereas I "think" you believe that if Purdue did this or that...the other teams wouldn't press. I don't know that to be true, but I certainly understand your reasoning on why it could be true.

 

[New Pal Boiler]

True. 80s phrase. If he was 225 we might be on to something by March lol

In B1G play, I agree. In the NCAAs he’d be fine against most teams.

 

[BCfanatic2020]

In B1G play, I agree. In the NCAAs he’d be fine against most teams.

I hope so. I think Purdue can win it all

 

[Schmedly_Whiplash]

Because I agree with many of your posts I was thinking about this last night a bit. If I'm correct, I tried to state why pressing would be a typically good approach against Purdue. I think you tried to state more that the reason was due to how Purdue plays against a press...typically. I think mine was a common thing no matter what kind of press or trapped was used against Purdue whereas I "think" you believe that if Purdue did this or that...the other teams wouldn't press. I don't know that to be true, but I certainly understand your reasoning on why it could be true.

You're a deep thinker TJ.
I think it's both. Makes sense against a dominant center to chew shot clock. even more so if the guards aren't the fastest/quickest guys out there.
Add in a team that doesn't seem to handle it well from a plan perspective and I'd press us all game long too.

But IF the price on the occasional steal for them would be higher. Offset by the occasional fast break for US.
Then the cost/benefits equation swings back the other way for us.
As is, teams pay NO price for pressing us. They get a few steals per game (critical in big games?) with NO cost other than the energy expended as we break the press and then pound the ball while they setup their defense.
As another BIG part of that, the more we play up-pace, the more we get used to the speed up that the other, more athletic teams are going to try to use on us. And the less pressure on any given player to be perfect.
Or else.............
While Fletch and Braden and sometime Lance, are pretty good spot up shooters, we dont' have that Boogie type guy that you are comfortable with getting a contested last second timer beater.
We need to avoid those situations as much as possible too.
Seems to happen quite a bit when we are playing our slow ball attack.
Get better at your weakness's and the opponents will stop trying to exploit them all the time.
We can't get more athletic than playing Lance and praying that Colvin and/or Heide can help down the stretch run.
I'm not sure that is going to be enough if we keep everything else the same and keep relying on Braden to do pretty much everything against any press. That's a ton of pressure on Lance too, to be the ONE guy that changes ALL THAT...
We can change our game plans.
When in doubt, attack.

 

[tjreese]

You're a deep thinker TJ.
I think it's both. Makes sense against a dominant center to chew shot clock. even more so if the guards aren't the fastest/quickest guys out there.
Add in a team that doesn't seem to handle it well from a plan perspective and I'd press us all game long too.

But IF the price on the occasional steal for them would be higher. Offset by the occasional fast break for US.
Then the cost/benefits equation swings back the other way for us.
As is, teams pay NO price for pressing us. They get a few steals per game (critical in big games?) with NO cost other than the energy expended as we break the press and then pound the ball while they setup their defense.
As another BIG part of that, the more we play up-pace, the more we get used to the speed up that the other, more athletic teams are going to try to use on us. And the less pressure on any given player to be perfect.
Or else.............
Get better at your weakness's and the opponents will stop trying to exploit them all the time.
We can't get more athletic than playing Lance and praying that Colvin and/or Heide can help down the stretch run.
I'm not sure that is going to be enough if we keep everything else the same and keep relying on Braden to do pretty much everything against any press. That's a ton of pressure on Lance too, to be the ONE guy that changes ALL THAT...
We can change our game plans.
When in doubt, attack.
JMO

Personally, I like the up temp in the second half many times we see. The fear is that Zach runs up and down the court and Purdue does not take advantage of Zach to the fullest. I am 100% for pushing the ball off a turnover, rebound...anything that allows Purdue to probe the D and use any advantage that Purdue has as a result...opposing player down...whatever. In all those cases Zach normally is in the lane having just played D and Purdue is just pushing the ball and putting offensive pressure on the opponent. I like that and for that up tempo in those occasions where Purdue tries to exploit the other team's D.

Concerning various presses the situations is a bit different. Generally, Zach is already down the court or close to being around the lane. Most teams pressure after a make...FT or FG so they can set their D. Generally, it is a zone press where they have two to 3 people depending on the press around half court and 1 (of the 2 or 3) back depending on the zone press and how they are playing it. Now it is a bit of a dilemma with Zach maybe already down there. Once across half court is it an advantage to continue to try to score quickly or is it best to play off Zach? Of course that is a read situation where there is no answer for all conditions, but Zach is rarely a bad choice, but sometimes not the best choice. Now, if the other teams picks up man off their miss and pressure by man...then I think it is mostly good to push the ball since Zach is really not in a position to score. What I can agree 100% on and have always wanted (years before) was to quickly probe the D and if the advantage is there try to score whenever the opportunity strikes. No Zach, and I think Purdue plays faster in the future. He is just so valuable that all decisions consider him...

 

[Boiler8285]

Personally, I like the up temp in the second half many times we see. The fear is that Zach runs up and down the court and Purdue does not take advantage of Zach to the fullest. I am 100% for pushing the ball off a turnover, rebound...anything that allows Purdue to probe the D and use any advantage that Purdue has as a result...opposing player down...whatever. In all those cases Zach normally is in the lane having just played D and Purdue is just pushing the ball and putting offensive pressure on the opponent. I like that and for that up tempo in those occasions where Purdue tries to exploit the other team's D.

Concerning various presses the situations is a bit different. Generally, Zach is already down the court or close to being around the lane. Most teams pressure after a make...FT or FG so they can set their D. Generally, it is a zone press where they have two to 3 people depending on the press around half court and 1 (of the 2 or 3) back depending on the zone press and how they are playing it. Now it is a bit of a dilemma with Zach maybe already down there. Once across half court is it an advantage to continue to try to score quickly or is it best to play off Zach? Of course that is a read situation where there is no answer for all conditions, but Zach is rarely a bad choice, but sometimes not the best choice. Now, if the other teams picks up man off their miss and pressure by man...then I think it is mostly good to push the ball since Zach is really not in a position to score. What I can agree 100% on and have always wanted (years before) was to quickly probe the D and if the advantage is there try to score whenever the opportunity strikes. No Zach, and I think Purdue plays faster in the future. He is just so valuable that all decisions consider him...

Or as John Wooden would say "Be quick but don't hurry". I couldn't agree with you more.

 

[tjreese]

Or as John Wooden would say "Be quick but don't hurry". I couldn't agree with you more.

That phrase...so very true, is misunderstood by a lot of fans. I do think the fans in this forum are a cut above the general public

 

[TopSecretBoiler]

The fate of this team rests in the development of Heide and Colvin over the next 3 months. I am not as optimistic as most here.

You're also not a Purdue fan. titanIUmdolt

 

[Jbigler1986]

I still don't understand why we don't have someone down there running licks to help free up Smith. All game long he has
To work so hard just to get across half court. Several times he just barely makes it without getting a 10 second call