Painter Being Painter

[ghostoffatjack]

Love our Coach but his stubbornness regarding a couple of things that occurred in our last game has me puzzled. 1) his reluctance to play a zone to protect a player in foul trouble showed it’s ugly head, true if you have NOT practiced it you can’t just change and put it in during a game and 2) when it is a bad night for a player he sticks with them through thick or thin. His stubbornness in these two areas might just be his downfall in Purdue progressing in the Big Dance in 2024.

NO GOOD REASON comes to mind why he cannot do both these things since he has to practice against a zone all season and if they are not it is a flaw by him and the team is deep enough to substitute for any player having a bad game! He is too good a coach not to see and correct these two things!

Come dance time he might HAVE to protect a player having a good night but in foul trouble to keep him in the game!

 

[boilerzz]

Tell us you can’t separate emotion from analysis without telling us you can’t separate emotion from analysis.

 

[ImRonBurgandy?]

Haters gonna hate, Painter's gonna Paint.

 

[DwaynePurvis00]

You can still get called for a foul while playing zone.

Are you referencing Loyer for the off night?
Hes a 40% that is a threat to score…the defense needs to account for him, even if he is 1-8 because he COULD make a 3 and get going or take it to the rim, then get fouled and go to the line where he is shooting 88% from.

I would say Heide (everyone’s favorite) should come in if loyers off, but that would mean Lance shifts to the 2, as I would think those same plays aren’t run for the type of player Heide is at this point. Then Lance, who is guarding the best guard on the other team, now has to exert more energy on offense, which may impact his defense. Or you could have Morton come in, but we know he’s no threat. Colvin would be ideal, but at this point he’s a bit behind on the speed of the game and keeping up with defense (hope he can get there by tourney time).

 

[Hausta01]

When Rodgers was in we basically did play a zone because we didn't guard outside of 15 feet

 

[ghostoffatjack]

Facts are facts, when the players in question, a player in foul trouble or one having an off night you protect one in foul trouble and remove the one having a BAD game or games. Do your analysis on just the bad games and tell me what his stats are. Even Pro Teams use the limited rules of a zone since it was allowed to protect a star in foul trouble when the refs won’t.

My original post had absolutely no hate said or implied. Been coaching Football and Basketball since ‘74 and have been.a stat analyst with my teams before the Internet, Money Ball and Aps were around and did them by hand back then since my Purdue Degree and Masters are in Mathematics. Yes I use the automated way today but the numbers still come out about the same when I question one the machine gives me!

Bobby Knight and his teams in their prime were always frustrated and many times defeated by inferior personnel teams using an odd front zone defense against IU since he refused to go Odd Vs Even with his offense! He was too bullheaded and it cost him especially when they played Northwestern and Syracuse who used odd front zones as they principle defense! Keady used it occasionally in his early year battles against IU also.

 

[z_one]

Love our Coach but his stubbornness regarding a couple of things that occurred in our last game has me puzzled. 1) his reluctance to play a zone to protect a player in foul trouble showed it’s ugly head, true if you have NOT practiced it you can’t just change and put it in during a game and 2) when it is a bad night for a player he sticks with them through thick or thin. His stubbornness in these two areas might just be his downfall in Purdue progressing in the Big Dance in 2024.

NO GOOD REASON comes to mind why he cannot do both these things since he has to practice against a zone all season and if they are not it is a flaw by him and the team is deep enough to substitute for any player having a bad game! He is too good a coach not to see and correct these two things!

Come dance time he might HAVE to protect a player having a good night but in foul trouble to keep him in the game!

To your point, Painter is a great coach but continues to try and put a square peg in a round hole time after time. Maybe we are deep enough and have enough talent to overcome this. I'm not an 'Ainter and I don't want another coach. I love most of what he does. I just wish he would put all of the tools in the toolbox and use them when needed. They seem so obvious when watching the games. I frankly have given up on expecting these simple and widely used changes to our approach. I hope we don't get sunk unnecessarily in the tournament because our game plan isn't working out as planned and yet we can't change. Go Boilers!

 

[pubill]

Facts are facts, when the players in question, a player in foul trouble or one having an off night you protect one in foul trouble and remove the one having a BAD game or games. Do your analysis on just the bad games and tell me what his stats are. Even Pro Teams use the limited rules of a zone since it was allowed to protect a star in foul trouble when the refs won’t.

My original post had absolutely no hate said or implied. Been coaching Football and Basketball since ‘74 and have been.a stat analyst with my teams before the Internet, Money Ball and Aps were around and did them by hand back then since my Purdue Degree and Masters are in Mathematics. Yes I use the automated way today but the numbers still come out about the same when I question one the machine gives me!

Bobby Knight and his teams in their prime were always frustrated and many times defeated by inferior personnel teams using an odd front zone defense against IU since he refused to go Odd Vs Even with his offense! He was too bullheaded and it cost him especially when they played Northwestern and Syracuse who used odd front zones as they principle defense! Keady used it occasionally in his early year battles against IU also.

Edey was playing a zone against Illini, the other players were not, but he was. What is your point?

 

[Hausta01]

Edey was playing a zone against Illini, the other players were not, but he was. What is your point?

That facts are facts?

 

[BoilerDaddy]

Painter is doing something right. Purdue is top 10 in defense in the country per the analytics (9 in KenPom and 5 in Torvik), with personnel largely recruited for skill. Not bad.

 

[Chi-Boiler]

Were any of Zach's fouls on pure defensive plays? I honestly can't remember but I don't think so. He had the foot stick out screen. At least one foul was on the glass.

My point being, rebounding fouls are still going to happen whether you play a zone or not. He often gets away with those reaches on the glass but Friday night he didn't.

 

[Woodsa]

Purdue uses a zone based on man-2-man defense, they call it a "man zone".

I don't have the stats to support these statements but I theorize...
1. If a player in foul trouble is on the court they are no more protected in a zone IF/WHEN the offensive team knows how to attack the zone, specifically a player.
2. Referees that are hell bent on calling a tight game to out teams, players, will not be impacted by the defensive scheme used by said team.
3. Shooters in a slump need to keep shooting to work through the slump. You can't do that if you are sitting on the bench. So CMP has to assess that players contribution (even if with a slump) vs who would come in a replace them.

 

[DwaynePurvis00]

Facts are facts, when the players in question, a player in foul trouble or one having an off night you protect one in foul trouble and remove the one having a BAD game or games. Do your analysis on just the bad games and tell me what his stats are. Even Pro Teams use the limited rules of a zone since it was allowed to protect a star in foul trouble when the refs won’t.

My original post had absolutely no hate said or implied. Been coaching Football and Basketball since ‘74 and have been.a stat analyst with my teams before the Internet, Money Ball and Aps were around and did them by hand back then since my Purdue Degree and Masters are in Mathematics. Yes I use the automated way today but the numbers still come out about the same when I question one the machine gives me!

Bobby Knight and his teams in their prime were always frustrated and many times defeated by inferior personnel teams using an odd front zone defense against IU since he refused to go Odd Vs Even with his offense! He was too bullheaded and it cost him especially when they played Northwestern and Syracuse who used odd front zones as they principle defense! Keady used it occasionally in his early year battles against IU also.

Understood. So, as a coach for so long, you’re saying you’d be that quick to pull your 3rd best scorer and one of your top high volume 3 pt shooters and sit him for…..someone better ok. But in this case who is better to play an additional 10-12 mins over fletch? Heide would be the ideal answer but not sure he’s quite there YET and Morton offers no offense much like Rodgers from U of I.

I like the analytical side too, so can you provide some facts/data that show how effective a zone is on hiding a player with foul trouble that is so heavily involved in the offense as Zach is? (Zach picked up 2 non defensive fouls so he could do the same on offensive for his 5th). Also, we could look at efficiency and PER for other players who would come in and play for fletch too. Maybe that would help?

 

[Heads up BOILER]

Were any of Zach's fouls on pure defensive plays? I honestly can't remember but I don't think so. He had the foot stick out screen. At least one foul was on the glass.

My point being, rebounding fouls are still going to happen whether you play a zone or not. He often gets away with those reaches on the glass but Friday night he didn't.

You are correct. Two over the back rebound fouls, trip on the screen and a foul for landing on the guy after he left his feet on a pump fake at the rim.

 

[tjreese]

Were any of Zach's fouls on pure defensive plays? I honestly can't remember but I don't think so. He had the foot stick out screen. At least one foul was on the glass.

My point being, rebounding fouls are still going to happen whether you play a zone or not. He often gets away with those reaches on the glass but Friday night he didn't.

Not for you in, but teams that play pure zone defend an area primarily. Getting defensive rebounds while in a zone can get dicey since block outs are more difficult. They are more difficult because the defense may not be close enough to get a body on the offensive player. They are more difficult because the offense can shoot two rebounders to the glass, particularly if there exists a weakside to rebound with maybe one defensive player to block out the two. Leaving gaps and space in a pure zone makes all the previous more likely when facing an athletic team. I'm thinking Illinois fits the bill as athletic AND a good rebounding team

Not you, but again a failure to at least recognize the trade offs results in a sure answer. Do we not think Matt is aware of the problems of such? In spite of just the quick things I listed, it is possible that a pure zone could be linked to a positive in an area...just as there could be negatives to an area. With Zach out a zone might have made it more difficult on Domask, but would it have made it much easier for the 3 ball AND offensive rebounding for Illinois. No solutions...just trade offs

 

[tjreese]

Purdue uses a zone based on man-2-man defense, they call it a "man zone".

I don't have the stats to support these statements but I theorize...
1. If a player in foul trouble is on the court they are no more protected in a zone IF/WHEN the offensive team knows how to attack the zone, specifically a player.
2. Referees that are hell bent on calling a tight game to out teams, players, will not be impacted by the defensive scheme used by said team.
3. Shooters in a slump need to keep shooting to work through the slump. You can't do that if you are sitting on the bench. So CMP has to assess that players contribution (even if with a slump) vs who would come in a replace them.

Matt and almost all man defenses use players two passes away from the ball to help play D...thus incorporating "zone" concepts. "Man Zone" was a phrase Bob Fuller at Anderson Highland used, similar to the Rule Defense" in the 60s Gerald Manahan used and of course Bill Green and his match up at Marion. All are predicated on being sufficient in man defense. Bob Fuller would not let any pre high school and maybe not freshmen play anything other than man defense in lower grades before being introduced to what he called man zone. So Matt like almost all coaches that coach man use zone concepts, but man/zone if starts with a zone and applies man and so they are similar, but different. I can understand the value of a match-up much more than a pure zone. Some teams use the short clock to show zone and then go into man. The goal is to eat some clock as the offense gets organized, but as the offense gets ready to score to ensure a man defense is in play. It too has potential problems. Tom Crean tried this many years ago at IU

 

[BoilerAndy]

Facts are facts, when the players in question, a player in foul trouble or one having an off night you protect one in foul trouble and remove the one having a BAD game or games. Do your analysis on just the bad games and tell me what his stats are. Even Pro Teams use the limited rules of a zone since it was allowed to protect a star in foul trouble when the refs won’t.

My original post had absolutely no hate said or implied. Been coaching Football and Basketball since ‘74 and have been.a stat analyst with my teams before the Internet, Money Ball and Aps were around and did them by hand back then since my Purdue Degree and Masters are in Mathematics. Yes I use the automated way today but the numbers still come out about the same when I question one the machine gives me!

Bobby Knight and his teams in their prime were always frustrated and many times defeated by inferior personnel teams using an odd front zone defense against IU since he refused to go Odd Vs Even with his offense! He was too bullheaded and it cost him especially when they played Northwestern and Syracuse who used odd front zones as they principle defense! Keady used it occasionally in his early year battles against IU also.

When you coached, did you not do what the fans told you (different plays, different style, different players) because you were just being stubborn?

 

[tjreese]

Understood. So, as a coach for so long, you’re saying you’d be that quick to pull your 3rd best scorer and one of your top high volume 3 pt shooters and sit him for…..someone better ok. But in this case who is better to play an additional 10-12 mins over fletch? Heide would be the ideal answer but not sure he’s quite there YET and Morton offers no offense much like Rodgers from U of I.

I like the analytical side too, so can you provide some facts/data that show how effective a zone is on hiding a player with foul trouble that is so heavily involved in the offense as Zach is? (Zach picked up 2 non defensive fouls so he could do the same on offensive for his 5th). Also, we could look at efficiency and PER for other players who would come in and play for fletch too. Maybe that would help?

trade offs...trade offs...trade offs always in play with speculative points in hindsight. Existed for a long time and will continue to exist in teh future

 

[DwaynePurvis00]

Matt and almost all man defenses use players two passes away from the ball to help play D...thus incorporating "zone" concepts. "Man Zone" was a phrase Bob Fuller at Anderson Highland used, similar to the Rule Defense" in the 60s Gerald Manahan used and of course Bill Green and his match up at Marion. All are predicated on being sufficient in man defense. Bob Fuller would not let any pre high school and maybe not freshmen play anything other than man defense in lower grades before being introduced to what he called man zone. So Matt like almost all coaches that coach man use zone concepts, but man/zone if starts with a zone and applies man and so they are similar, but different. I can understand the value of a match-up much more than a pure zone. Some teams use the short clock to show zone and then go into man. The goal is to eat some clock as the offense gets organized, but as the offense gets ready to score to ensure a man defense is in play. It too has potential problems. Tom Crean tried this many years ago at IU

Yup, good points. I did like how Maryland started in zone and then switched halfway through or at a certain moment in the shot clock…would be interesting if we could try that 1-2 times a game just to mess with the flow of a team. Maybe we zone IU since they can’t shoot and their strength is inside (I know we won’t), but I wouldn’t be surprised if they zone us if needed.

 

[tjreese]

Yup, good points. I did like how Maryland started in zone and then switched halfway through or at a certain moment in the shot clock…would be interesting if we could try that 1-2 times a game just to mess with the flow of a team. Maybe we zone IU since they can’t shoot and their strength is inside (I know we won’t), but I wouldn’t be surprised if they zone us if needed.

As it gets closer to the IU game, I'll join in and list my concerns. I've changed a bit on Reaves and Ware after seeing more games, and Johnson changes things for defending Galloway IMO. Purdue will get IU's best shot possible.

 

[Schmedly_Whiplash]

trade offs...trade offs...trade offs always in play with speculative points in hindsight. Existed for a long time and will continue to exist in teh future

Matt's explained his problems with it more than once. Might be video out there or it might have been on his call in radio shows Every coach decides the direction his teams will take. I don't disagree that it SEEMS like a zone (in concept) should be advantageous at times or just to change looks. But I gotta trust our "doing pretty dang well" coach's calls on this if HE does't like the trade offs.

 

[tjreese]

Matt's explained his problems with it more than once. Might be video out there or it might have been on his call in radio shows Every coach decides the direction his teams will take. I don't disagree that it SEEMS like a zone (in concept) should be advantageous at times or just to change looks. But I gotta trust our "doing pretty dang well" coach's calls on this if HE does't like the trade offs.

for many, it is a failure to even understand that a trade off exists...unaware of the potential downfalls that are present...just understanding only what they understand or at least not bringing up the potential downfalls and to contrast them with their desires.

 

[boilerzz]

To your point, Painter is a great coach but continues to try and put a square peg in a round hole time after time. Maybe we are deep enough and have enough talent to overcome this. I'm not an 'Ainter and I don't want another coach. I love most of what he does. I just wish he would put all of the tools in the toolbox and use them when needed. They seem so obvious when watching the games. I frankly have given up on expecting these simple and widely used changes to our approach. I hope we don't get sunk unnecessarily in the tournament because our game plan isn't working out as planned and yet we can't change. Go Boilers!

Just because they seem obvious to you, it doesn't mean they are right.

 

[jdbrees922]

I don’t get the Colvin is behind the speed of the game. What does Loyer do - a threat from 3 and plays terrible defense, same thing you say Colvin does. Watching Loyer drive to the basket and throw up shots is hilarious, Colvin will improve defensively if given the chance but won’t happen cause Painter is in love with his boy

 

[jdbrees922]

I also believe Painter is a great evaluator of talent , just doesn’t know how to adjust during a game , it’s what is stopping him from being elite ! Sure if you are here long enough you will win a ton of games , we are Purdue and will always be good

 

[boilerzz]

I don’t get the Colvin is behind the speed of the game. What does Loyer do - a threat from 3 and plays terrible defense, same thing you say Colvin does. Watching Loyer drive to the basket and throw up shots is hilarious, Colvin will improve defensively if given the chance but won’t happen cause Painter is in love with his boy

I wish you could sit with someone and watch tape of the two of them. Loyer struggles in on ball defense for sure but Colvin is lost off the ball and not good on the ball either. That's much worse IMO.

A couple other reasons Loyer gets minutes while Colvin doesn't:

• Loyer is trusted as a secondary ballhandler against pressure. Colvin hasn't shown that ability yet
• Opposing teams give Loyer more respect offensively, opening up the lane for Smith and Edey.

 

[DwaynePurvis00]

I also believe Painter is a great evaluator of talent , just doesn’t know how to adjust during a game , it’s what is stopping him from being elite ! Sure if you are here long enough you will win a ton of games , we are Purdue and will always be good

He’s adjusted this year pretty decently I’d say. Better than he has in the past.

But I don’t get what you want, like for Purdue to just dominate every team? That’s not possible. We don’t have 5 dominating players…we have 1 for sure and and you could say smith is…but he’s not there yet (IMO), but he’s awfully good.

 

[DwaynePurvis00]

I don’t get the Colvin is behind the speed of the game. What does Loyer do - a threat from 3 and plays terrible defense, same thing you say Colvin does. Watching Loyer drive to the basket and throw up shots is hilarious, Colvin will improve defensively if given the chance but won’t happen cause Painter is in love with his boy

I love Colvin and what he’s gonna be, but watch him on defense vs UT, Arizona, Northwestern. He is still a bit behind in off ball/team defense. He also needs to drive the ball and not shoot the 3 every time he touches it (although I love the mentality).

Loyer also played pretty good defense vs Arizona….loyer also killed Arizona and UT. Myles can’t do that…yet, maybe second half next year. Loyer takes it to the rack and can draw fouls at times, but yes other times he throws it up and misses bad when there’s no call. Right now, Loyer is more game ready than Colvin and is our 3rd best scorer and is shooting it at a higher volume at a better %.

 

[boilerzz]

I also believe Painter is a great evaluator of talent , just doesn’t know how to adjust during a game , it’s what is stopping him from being elite ! Sure if you are here long enough you will win a ton of games , we are Purdue and will always be good

Imagine having this thought when talking about the coach who has had his team ranked #1 more than any other program in the nation the last 3 years.

 

[Riveting-]

Imagine having this thought when talking about the coach who has had his team ranked #1 more than any other program in the nation the last 3 years.

The thought is about March, not rankings.

Painter open to playing zone, both 7-footers together

Formerly a staunch man-to-man coach, Purdue's Matt Painter is entertaining the idea of using a zone this season.

www.jconline.com

 

[BoilerAndy]

I also believe Painter is a great evaluator of talent , just doesn’t know how to adjust during a game , it’s what is stopping him from being elite ! Sure if you are here long enough you will win a ton of games , we are Purdue and will always be good

Everyone has had their opinion about what is keeping Painter from being "elite". Doesn't recruit 5-star talent, doesn't make in-game adjustments, plays through his big men, is a defense-first coach, doesn't play zone, recruits small, slow guards, sticks with his seniors, favorites, yadda-yadda-yadda...

With all of those flaws, how does the guy win ANY games?

 

[Riveting-]

With all of those flaws, how does the guy win ANY games?

That is not the complaint from what I can see. Not winning in March is the complaint.

I personally am not obsessed with winning the ncaat, but I think experience from both Purdue and other teams shows that a little flexibility could help in that regard - but in substitution patterns and using a zone occasionally to mix things up and protect guys in foul trouble,

The Heat used a zone very effectively during the NBA finals. I am sure CMP was watching.

 

[BoilerAndy]

That is not the complaint from what I can see. Not winning in March is the complaint.

I personally am not obsessed with winning the ncaat, but I think experience from both Purdue and other teams shows that a little flexibility could help in that regard - but in substitution patterns and using a zone occasionally to mix things up and protect guys in foul trouble,

The Heat used a zone very effectively during the NBA finals. I am sure CMP was watching.

All of those complaints I mentioned were used by fans after NCAA losses.

 

[SaratogaBoiler1]

Only thing I would add is it seems like when Loyer is off he’s really off. The games he plays well he usually starts well. Not that he’s an all or nothing but sometimes it sure seems that way.

 

[KentuckyBoiler]

As it gets closer to the IU game, I'll join in and list my concerns. I've changed a bit on Reaves and Ware after seeing more games, and Johnson changes things for defending Galloway IMO. Purdue will get IU's best shot possible.

We will get IUs best game, because we have become their NCAA tournament games.

 

[DwaynePurvis00]

We will get IUs best game, because we have become their NCAA tournament games.

They NEED to beat us and or Illinois to get in

 

[Gman544]

I would have been ok with giving Colvin some time when Purdue was up 21. But not when the game was closer. At this point, as bad as Loyer has been on D Colvin is worse. A number of times he whiffs so badly, he does not try to recover, he just heads inside for a rebound. Now, he has great potential and will get better. That can be shown in practice by listening to coaches, paying attention to detail and executing on the floor. As he does, he will play more and more, even in crunch time.

 

[tjreese]

Matt's explained his problems with it more than once. Might be video out there or it might have been on his call in radio shows Every coach decides the direction his teams will take. I don't disagree that it SEEMS like a zone (in concept) should be advantageous at times or just to change looks. But I gotta trust our "doing pretty dang well" coach's calls on this if HE does't like the trade offs.

Actually Matt was open to it and worked with Basil Mawby the summer of 2014 or 2015. He played 2-3 for maybe four or five games. I don't need to see the video I have a pretty good idea why Matt plays man. Personally, I didn't like the way he used AJ in the 2-3 in defending the out of bounds under the basket. I've written a few times about this, but I think it was the asst. coach of North Florida that set up the shot around the baseline opposite the visiting team for the win. I also didn't like the spread he used (trying to use his length of the team as well. Bruce Webber made a living on the short corner against the zone. Thinking maybe Matt dropped it after the North Florida game. I've posted this several times and yet some appear to not think Matt has played a zone before...for some reason. Now someone can state that he should try it again knowing some previous flaws and I suppose that is reasonable from their perspective

It would provide better dialog if someone said Matt should play a pure zone or play a match-up zone starting with this formation????? and then adding which players are where. Assuming this was a ploy in a tight game I'll assume that Lance, Braden, Fletcher, Zach and Trey are the primary players. I'll assume a pure zone rather than a match-up is desired based upon what is implied in many posts.

Looking at the players and assuming a pure zone does Purdue play a 3-2 or a 1-2-2 so that the smaller players are on top? Better yet, do you want Trey or Zach covering the 3 ball along the baseline and closing out after leaving close to the lane out of either zone?

What about a 2-3? Put Lance and Braden on top...Zach in the middle. Now where do you play Fletch? Do you play Fletch down low on the most offensive side and Trey on the rebounding side...some complain about Fletch and his D. Do you switch them and put Fletch on the rebounding side and Trey defending the common offensive side? Do you want Fletch rebounding out of a zone with his height and strength...not to mention direct ball pressure by Lance and or Braden being lost.

There are no solutions...only trade offs...

 

[proudopete]

I also chuckle a little when I see these types of posts questioning Paint when he has the team rolling this season.

 

[ghostoffatjack]

When you coached, did you not do what the fans told you (different plays, different style, different players) because you were just being stubborn?

I had trusted long time assistants that often told me what to change and I listen to them. Head Coaches can't see everything! So to answer your question if I have a parent meeting I address their issues which is most often about playing time and my response is playing time is based on effort and results in practices.