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One of the best podcasts I've heard re: PU hoops

bonefish1

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Hopefully this link works, but listened to this MSU podcast previewing the game Saturday night. The co-host does a seriously good analysis of Purdue, how Painter builds teams, our struggles in the tourney, etc. Very accurate IMHO.
They break it down player by player, even going into some good analysis of the bench. These guys have done their homework.


 
This was really good. A little less than generous in a few areas, but considering they are fans of a rival team it was abundantly fair and pretty spot on overall.
 
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This was really good. A little less than generous in a few areas, but considering they are fans of a rival team it was abundantly fair and pretty spot on overall.
One of the guys makes the point that Purdue “doesn’t have a counter move” and “doesn’t have dynamic guards”. I would argue that the second half against Illinois made a great counter-argument against those points. Edey was impactful as always, but Purdue won the game without a post up game down the stretch. The other thing that was abundantly clear was that Braden Smith is one of the most dynamic guards in the country. I’m not saying that Purdue can’t be upset in the tournament, but this team is far more capable of dealing with different styles than last year’s team.
 
The podcast is very even-keeled which I appreciate, but the main point of the first portion is "Purdue can't beat opponents that play different styles." And I don't think that's borne out by the evidence.

The problem with all these analyses is that they're basically trying to build a narrative out of just 3 games--the last three tournament losses. But we have a ton more evidence from the regular season that Purdue can do those things.

He also claims that Purdue hasn't improved their ability to handle ball-pressure or more high-intensity defenses. I don't think anyone who has watched Purdue consistently this season could come to that conclusion. Smith has improved against it, and the addition of Jones has helped as well. While we turn it over against a pressure defense sometimes, I feel like it's at a normal rate. It's not especially a weakness.

Moreover, I think Edey's passing is improved, though it's probably hard to quantify. His assist numbers are up slightly, but that may just be because of better three-point shooting. Still I feel like his passes are on the whole quicker and sharper than last season.

tl;dr the podcast style/vibe is good. I just think it's wrong.
 
The podcast is very even-keeled which I appreciate, but the main point of the first portion is "Purdue can't beat opponents that play different styles." And I don't think that's borne out by the evidence.

The problem with all these analyses is that they're basically trying to build a narrative out of just 3 games--the last three tournament losses. But we have a ton more evidence from the regular season that Purdue can do those things.

He also claims that Purdue hasn't improved their ability to handle ball-pressure or more high-intensity defenses. I don't think anyone who has watched Purdue consistently this season could come to that conclusion. Smith has improved against it, and the addition of Jones has helped as well. While we turn it over against a pressure defense sometimes, I feel like it's at a normal rate. It's not especially a weakness.

Moreover, I think Edey's passing is improved, though it's probably hard to quantify. His assist numbers are up slightly, but that may just be because of better three-point shooting. Still I feel like his passes are on the whole quicker and sharper than last season.

tl;dr the podcast style/vibe is good. I just think it's wrong.
Agree 100%
 
Hopefully this link works, but listened to this MSU podcast previewing the game Saturday night. The co-host does a seriously good analysis of Purdue, how Painter builds teams, our struggles in the tourney, etc. Very accurate IMHO.
They break it down player by player, even going into some good analysis of the bench. These guys have done their homework.


I can see why you like it due to it fitting your exact thoughts on why Purdue will fail.

But I listened to this and the post game one after the Purdue game, and it didn’t give much more insight than any other analysis on how to beat Purdue. Their analysis was to “pressure the guards” and “Purdue can’t adapt to playing different types of games”. Lazy takes from guys who haven’t watched a lot of Purdue.

First off, that one guy talks so slow and is so stuffed up sounding and was tough to listen to in both episodes, I put it on 2x to get though it. They also try to not show bias, but it still comes through. A side note of this was that I found it weird he kept adding an inch to everyone’s height…not sure why.

Their comments prior and after the game on the players:

Edey - boring to watch, favorable whistle, not great footwork

Smith - not dynamic, not a good defender, can’t handle pressure. They talked about how they are unsure he can handle pressure for 40 minutes. What team does that in the country? I think back to the only one being UT. He handled Zieglers pressure pretty well all game long…but they probably didn’t want that game.

Loyer - only offers offense but is a better shootee

TKR - playing role well

Jones - stuffed up guy said he didn’t think he was a good fit/wasnt going to do much for Purdue. Has shot it better, but doesn’t seem to understand why Lance makes Purdue better (probably because he doesn’t watch every single game and is just spewing what he’s seen in the select few games he’s watched).

Their main focus was if you pressure Purdue guards, then Purdue won’t do well and tries to reference the 3 losses. NW pressured the entry passer well, but also a lot of those turnovers were unforced errors. In addition, NW plays super physical and dares the refs to call the fouls. It worked that game, almost worked a 2nd time. They failed to mention NW shot 50%+ from 3 in both games.

Nebraska, didn’t put that much pressure on guards. They shot 60% from 3 and had a point center running the show for them. He also hit 3s and pulled edey out.

Ohio state, didnt pressure guards. They were super physical and took away the 3 ball. Purdue shot pretty poorly as well.

In regards to Smith, he showed these last two games that he CAN be a really good defender. He shut down MSUs best guard and made TSJ uncomfortable all game. I. Terms of being dynamic, he has shot the 3 outstanding…some off the bounce (the two huge ones vs Illinois come to mind). And he is almost automatic in the PnR mid range with Edey and probably the best at it in the country. He is a top 3 PG.

Edey - their take is nothing special and is played out in every non Purdue fan base

At the end of the day, it comes down to can Purdue hit shots by guys not named Edey. We have seen a whole lot of that this year and I hope it continues. If Purdue can play how they’ve played all year(shooting 40% from 3)—especially how they have been on defense, they’ll be very tough to beat

All in All, it was alright, but nothing new. Again, definitely see why you liked it tho, bone 😉
 
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I can see why you like it due to it fitting your exact thoughts on why Purdue will fail.

But I listened to this and the post game one after the Purdue game, and it didn’t give much more insight than any other analysis on how to beat Purdue. Their analysis was to “pressure the guards” and “Purdue can’t adapt to playing different types of games”. Lazy takes from guys who haven’t watched a lot of Purdue.

First off, that one guy talks so slow and is so stuffed up sounding and was tough to listen to in both episodes, I put it on 2x to get though it. They also try to not show bias, but it still comes through. A side note of this was that I found it weird he kept adding an inch to everyone’s height…not sure why.

Their comments prior and after the game on the players:

Edey - boring to watch, favorable whistle, not great footwork

Smith - not dynamic, not a good defender, can’t handle pressure. They talked about how they are unsure he can handle pressure for 40 minutes. What team does that in the country? I think back to the only one being UT. He handled Zieglers pressure pretty well all game long…but they probably didn’t want that game.

Loyer - only offers offense but is a better shootee

TKR - playing role well

Jones - stuffed up guy said he didn’t think he was a good fit/wasnt going to do much for Purdue. Has shot it better, but doesn’t seem to understand why Lance makes Purdue better (probably because he doesn’t watch every single game and is just spewing what he’s seen in the select few games he’s watched).

Their main focus was if you pressure Purdue guards, then Purdue won’t do well and tries to reference the 3 losses. NW pressured the entry passer well, but also a lot of those turnovers were unforced errors. In addition, NW plays super physical and dares the refs to call the fouls. It worked that game, almost worked a 2nd time. They failed to mention NW shot 50%+ from 3 in both games.

Nebraska, didn’t put that much pressure on guards. They shot 60% from 3 and had a point center running the show for them. He also hit 3s and pulled edey out.

Ohio state, didnt pressure guards. They were super physical and took away the 3 ball. Purdue shot pretty poorly as well.

In regards to Smith, he showed these last two games that he CAN be a really good defender. He shut down MSUs best guard and made TSJ uncomfortable all game. I. Terms of being dynamic, he has shot the 3 outstanding…some off the bounce (the two huge ones vs Illinois come to mind). And he is almost automatic in the PnR mid range with Edey and probably the best at it in the country. He is a top 3 PG.

Edey - their take is nothing special and is played out in every non Purdue fan base

At the end of the day, it comes down to can Purdue hit shots by guys not named Edey. We have seen a whole lot of that this year and I hope it continues. If Purdue can play how they’ve played all year(shooting 40% from 3)—especially how they have been on defense, they’ll be very tough to beat

All in All, it was alright, but nothing new. Again, definitely see why you liked it tho, bone 😉
Yeh, I agree. I have a lot of similar opinions. But the main one is the roster construction and Painters philosophy hasn’t worked in the tourney, which is 100% accurate.
Maybe it will this year?
But I like that he said Purdue is built to win for a series (like in the NBA) but the tourney is one n done and if the opposing team can take away something your team has done all year, it can create a problem.
 
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Yeh, I agree. I have a lot of similar opinions. But the main one is the roster construction and Painters philosophy hasn’t worked in the tourney, which is 100% accurate.
Maybe it will this year?
But I like that he said Purdue is built to win for a series (like in the NBA) but the tourney is one n done and if the opposing team can take away something your team has done all year, it can create a problem.
The philosophy didn't "work" in the tournament in 2 of the last 3 years. His track record is much deeper than that.
 
Just curious, are Smith and Jones in the freestyle group or are they something else?
They both have the green light to pull whenever they want, which is great to see. Smith is actually better than his size would predict at getting in the lane and finishing. Neither is a dynamic "just give them the ball an get out of the way" type, but they're more freestyle than most Purdue guards in the past.
 
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They both have the green light to pull whenever they want, which is great to see. Smith is actually better than his size would predict at getting in the lane and finishing. Neither is a dynamic "just give them the ball an get out of the way" type, but they're more freestyle than most Purdue guards in the past.
Jones actually had to be reigned in a bit since the beginning of the year and he’s been more efficient since.

Smith is no Jaden Ivey in terms of a get out of the way type, but Painter totally trusts him to run the offense. Painter actually pushed him to shoot more, because he was too unselfish.
 
Yeh, I agree. I have a lot of similar opinions. But the main one is the roster construction and Painters philosophy hasn’t worked in the tourney, which is 100% accurate.
Maybe it will this year?
But I like that he said Purdue is built to win for a series (like in the NBA) but the tourney is one n done and if the opposing team can take away something your team has done all year, it can create a problem.
What’d FDU take away last year? They steal our 3P shooting or was it actually Purdue beating themselves and not hitting 3s…just like vs Saint Pete or did they take away something too?
 
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Take off the PU colored glasses. Anyone other than a Painter fanboy would say that Painters tourney success has been less than impressive. The data proves it.
No, I agree it’s less than impressive but it’s not solely based on centering it around the 5. More factors at play.

2018 - Haas breaks arm first game in tourney. Not many teams lose a key piece that late in the year and able to go on a run. I’m not convinced we would have beat nova in E8 if we beat tech, but we may have matched up well that game.

2019 - not sure painter tried to form this team like it ended up, but he had no choice but to let Carsen fire up 10 3s a game. He got hot in one of the best ever individual runs ever and it almost worked to get to the F4. But he was in a huge slump to end the year and that team wasn’t very good to start, so tough to say that the way he constructed the roster was the main reason they went to E8. Really had no business beating UT with Schofield and Williams on that team but Cline had a career (which happens in the tourney) and we got away with a win.

2021 - this team was over seeded..didn’t really beat anyone outside of big ten. Were they post focused? I don’t remember.

2022 - while playing through the post, we get to S16 and we shoot 24% from 3, combined with our lotto pick deciding to have his worst game of his career/act disinterested. This team was also a bad defensive team that was uncharacteristic for a Painter team.

2023 - post focused team, our post guys (edey and furst) was 9-13, with 25 points. Rest of team 10-40, including 5-26 (19.2%) from 3.

So I don’t think it’s as simple as saying it’s because of the style we play. Does it play a factor? It seems like it right? But we have also shot terribly these last 3 years in losses. This current team is shooting better than any of those teams, including the 2019 team.

Edey only scored 6 of our last 28 and none of the last 13 at Illinois—didn’t score from 7.5 min mark and on in 2nd half.

Next year won’t be post focused, but for this year, hope we don’t go cold and are able to breakthrough.
 
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No, I agree it’s less than impressive but it’s not solely based on centering it around the 5. More factors at play.

2018 - Haas breaks arm first game in tourney. Not many teams lose a key piece that late in the year and able to go on a run. I’m not convinced we would have beat nova in E8 if we beat tech, but we may have matched up well that game.

2019 - not sure painter tried to form this team like it ended up, but he had no choice but to let Carsen fire up 10 3s a game. He got hot in one of the best ever individual runs ever and it almost worked to get to the F4. But he was in a huge slump to end the year and that team wasn’t very good to start, so tough to say that the way he constructed the roster was the main reason they went to E8. Really had no business beating UT with Schofield and Williams on that team but Cline had a career (which happens in the tourney) and we got away with a win.

2021 - this team was over seeded..didn’t really beat anyone outside of big ten. Were they post focused? I don’t remember.

2022 - while playing through the post, we get to S16 and we shoot 24% from 3, combined with our lotto pick deciding to have his worst game of his career/act disinterested. This team was also a bad defensive team that was uncharacteristic for a Painter team.

2023 - post focused team, our post guys (edey and furst) was 9-13, with 25 points. Rest of team 10-40, including 5-26 (19.2%) from 3.

So I don’t think it’s as simple as saying it’s because of the style we play. Does it play a factor? It seems like it right? But we have also shot terribly these last 3 years in losses. This current team is shooting better than any of those teams, including the 2019 team.

Edey only scored 6 of our last 28 and none of the last 13 at Illinois—didn’t score from 7.5 min mark and on in 2nd half.

Next year won’t be post focused, but for this year, hope we don’t go cold and are able to breakthrough.
Hands down, this is the most reasonable, level-headed post in the thread.

Regarding the 2021 team, many ppl forget that we had one of the youngest (if not THE youngest) team in the tourney that year. To answer your question, we were post-focused team, but it had a totally different flow with Tre Williams able to pass and dribble out of the post.
 
Take off the PU colored glasses. Anyone other than a Painter fanboy would say that Painters tourney success has been less than impressive. The data proves it.
I'm looking at things objectively. You're taking the immature, emotional fanboy approach. Like the 10 year old kid who just can't stand it when things don't go their way.
 
No, I agree it’s less than impressive but it’s not solely based on centering it around the 5. More factors at play.

2018 - Haas breaks arm first game in tourney. Not many teams lose a key piece that late in the year and able to go on a run. I’m not convinced we would have beat nova in E8 if we beat tech, but we may have matched up well that game.

2019 - not sure painter tried to form this team like it ended up, but he had no choice but to let Carsen fire up 10 3s a game. He got hot in one of the best ever individual runs ever and it almost worked to get to the F4. But he was in a huge slump to end the year and that team wasn’t very good to start, so tough to say that the way he constructed the roster was the main reason they went to E8. Really had no business beating UT with Schofield and Williams on that team but Cline had a career (which happens in the tourney) and we got away with a win.

2021 - this team was over seeded..didn’t really beat anyone outside of big ten. Were they post focused? I don’t remember.

2022 - while playing through the post, we get to S16 and we shoot 24% from 3, combined with our lotto pick deciding to have his worst game of his career/act disinterested. This team was also a bad defensive team that was uncharacteristic for a Painter team.

2023 - post focused team, our post guys (edey and furst) was 9-13, with 25 points. Rest of team 10-40, including 5-26 (19.2%) from 3.

So I don’t think it’s as simple as saying it’s because of the style we play. Does it play a factor? It seems like it right? But we have also shot terribly these last 3 years in losses. This current team is shooting better than any of those teams, including the 2019 team.

Edey only scored 6 of our last 28 and none of the last 13 at Illinois—didn’t score from 7.5 min mark and on in 2nd half.

Next year won’t be post focused, but for this year, hope we don’t go cold and are able to breakthrough.
This is the smart way to view things. Each season is its own thing with many different factors in play. Simple-minded people who can't/won't think want to simplify everything to one simple reason they can wrap their simple mind around.
 
What’d FDU take away last year? They steal our 3P shooting or was it actually Purdue beating themselves and not hitting 3s…just like vs Saint Pete or did they take away something too?
I think you could make the argument that FDU took Edey away in the second half. Once they figured out that Purdue couldn’t shoot, they were able to double and triple team him with ease. He didn’t have a field goal attempt for the last 9 minutes of the game. And for him to finish with “only” 21 points (7 from the FT line) against the shortest team in the tournament seems like a win for them.
 
Hands down, this is the most reasonable, level-headed post in the thread.

Regarding the 2021 team, many ppl forget that we had one of the youngest (if not THE youngest) team in the tourney that year. To answer your question, we were post-focused team, but it had a totally different flow with Tre Williams able to pass and dribble out of the post.
Yeah couldn’t remember that team as well. Was tough to follow cuz covid was such a weird year for life in general 😂

But yeah, every year is diff. And Purdue did not lose because they shut down the 5 man and then nothing happened. Purdue shot poorly in all 3 of those games. And that was more the reason why they lost. If Purdue shoots their average for 3P% against those 3 teams, they win all 3 and we don’t have this discussion. Those losses had nothing to do with being a post focused team.
 
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I think you could make the argument that FDU took Edey away in the second half. Once they figured out that Purdue couldn’t shoot, they were able to double and triple team him with ease. He didn’t have a field goal attempt for the last 9 minutes of the game. And for him to finish with “only” 21 points (7 from the FT line) against the shortest team in the tournament seems like a win for them.
Yeah they double and tripled teamed him and had multiple guys near him at all times. I can dig something up that someone on Twitter went over called the “edey rules”. But we shot 32% from 3 on the year. If we shoot close to that we win that game. We shot 19%…we make just 2 more 3s and we win the game. Zach made correct decisions when passing out of the post to an open man.
 
Depends on if you want to get back to the Elite 8 again and win.
We all do. But you and bone keep claiming it’s due to mobile centers but in reality it’s not and it’s been more of Purdue shooting poorly. So it wouldn’t have mattered if we had a more mobile center since we shot below our 3pt average
 
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Yeh, I agree. I have a lot of similar opinions. But the main one is the roster construction and Painters philosophy hasn’t worked in the tourney, which is 100% accurate.
Maybe it will this year?
But I like that he said Purdue is built to win for a series (like in the NBA) but the tourney is one n done and if the opposing team can take away something your team has done all year, it can create a problem.
Cool
 
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Yeh, I agree. I have a lot of similar opinions. But the main one is the roster construction and Painters philosophy hasn’t worked in the tourney, which is 100% accurate.
Maybe it will this year?
But I like that he said Purdue is built to win for a series (like in the NBA) but the tourney is one n done and if the opposing team can take away something your team has done all year, it can create a problem.
You just seem like the type that will immediately run here if we lose and say “SEE! TOLD YOU SO!” But also if we get to a F4 you’ll say “ NEVER DOUBTED PAINTER AND THE TEAM FOR A SECOND”
 
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We all do. But you and bone keep claiming it’s due to mobile centers but in reality it’s not and it’s been more of Purdue shooting poorly. So it wouldn’t have mattered if we had a more mobile center since we shot below our 3pt average
A mobile center with a jump shot is a game changer
with guards that can dribble drive and score when shots
are being bricked. Purdue needs more versatile players for
like you said, when shots aren't falling.
 
A mobile center with a jump shot is a game changer
with guards that can dribble drive and score when shots
are being bricked. Purdue needs more versatile players for
like you said, when shots aren't falling.
If shots aren’t falling, then shots probably aren’t falling for your jump shooting center either.

This year Purdue has addressed the 2 biggest issues that not only cost them against FDU, but plagued them most of the season: poor shooting and turnovers under pressure. I can’t predict the future, but I feel much better about this team heading into the tournament than I did last year at this time.
 
A mobile center with a jump shot is a game changer
with guards that can dribble drive and score when shots
are being bricked. Purdue needs more versatile players for
like you said, when shots aren't falling.
Well we got that for next year. But Haarms wasn’t hitting jump shots on a consistent basis. I get what you’re saying though and with you on the E8 min. Still will be watching by myself and like this tho 🫣
 
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If shots aren’t falling, then shots probably aren’t falling for your jump shooting center either.

This year Purdue has addressed the 2 biggest issues that not only cost them against FDU, but plagued them most of the season: poor shooting and turnovers under pressure. I can’t predict the future, but I feel much better about this team heading into the tournament than I did last year at this time.
There are multiple ways to win. I prefer teams full of players
like the Baby Boilers because they can play any style.

No, please do predict the future. How far do we go in March
this year? Elite 8 should be the floor for 2024 Boilers.
 
There are multiple ways to win. I prefer teams full of players
like the Baby Boilers because they can play any style.

No, please do predict the future. How far do we go in March
this year? Elite 8 should be the floor for 2024
Why E8? Why not F4 or Runner-up? If you're going to set a floor, why so low?
 
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