I don't think the answer is simply to 'recruit harder.' That's like telling a NASCAR drive to just drive faster at Talledega or Daytona...the pedal is already through the floorboard.
Outdated System
- Thread starter Cevol03
- Start date
IF Matt can pull in a class in 2018 that is as good or a little better than 2017 and again has length and athleticism, now there is a team that, while still not able to deal with what we saw last night consistently, would at least have a chance to play with them. From there you might sneak through to the next level. I'm excited to see what happens. If we instead get 2018 and 2019 classes that are weak (no top 100's) we will be in trouble and that would be when change would need to happen.
Yes. That IS what I am saying. That is what Matt had back in the baby boiler days. That's what he is bringing next class. That's what he wants to be. I am just saying that this group didn't have that type of player. You can't force a style of play on a team if their abilities don't support it.
Next year will be similar to this year since our most experienced and therefore likely best group will be guys we already have now. There may be some transition to a more athletic team though if Eastern, Wheeler and maybe even Haarms prove capable of taking some minutes.
Imagine this lineup in 2018/19
Eastern
C Edwards
Cline
Wheeler
Haarms
That team could play many ways on offense. 3 out, 4 out, 5 out sets. Motions, set plays, ball screen action from each set.
Defense will have more possibilities than now.
Yes, they could zone
. Yep! I said it.
"WE" grow the power of the NCAA not unlike "WE" growing the power of the government. Ultimately, it is we in how much we like the tourney and we in the value we hold for sports. WE create the conditions for which "it" grows...
we as in us grew WE as in them...
I believe that has been answered elsewhere...not sure where, but somewhere in this site I think
Yes. I think it is more of an evolutionary process than a revolutionary process...
That's the sign of a good coach when he can adjust his offensive approach, sets, and attack to his personnel (although having that kind of personnel is admittedly tough to corral).
What do you think is the right offfensive approach when you are slow and can't jump? Do you think a "team" approach to possibly help those less capable is better than an approach that allows those less capable to make plays based upon individual abilities or a team approach hinders the individually of those less capable of making plays on their own by becoming more predictable?
I think there needed to be a better offensive mix for Purdue. They can run their traditional motion but also, they have a guard (CE) that can get to the basket at will (not always score but he still gets there) but they never ran any isolation plays or sets tailored to spacing the floor out and getting the ball to him in a good spot the entire season (not once!). Those kind of "wrinkles" in the offense would help. Painter has lacked the creativity, flexibility, or nerve to add wrinkles into the offense (and defense) such as that.
There is nothing in motion that prevents CE going to the basket...he went a few times last night. What team allows isolation unless your team provides enough threat that the opposing team is caught in an isolation. All year Matt tried to Isolate Biggie...and Haas with perimeter threats that hopefull;y required the defense to concern themselve with their shooting.
Yesterday before the game you can find my post where I said with my limited understanding of Kansas I would front the bigs and NOT devote any perimeter players to helping inside, but pressure Purdue players since they do not have the quickness to be a threat with the athleticism Kansas has. What I didn't know was that Kansas had enough physical beef that with a whistle swallowed when pushing that Kansas could play behind the bigs. Somewhere...sometime people are going to understand you cannot do the same thing with some talent as with all talent.
WHO was going to play above the rim for Purdue that Purdue could just lay it up around the rim and another grab it and stuff it? Biggie was one Burger boy and Kansas had 4 or 5...and those not burger boys for Kansas could probably go a lot of places. Blame Wilt for getting Kansas started
The legitimate argument and I think some don't fully understand the number game and other programs are how well should Purdue be able to recruit? What weighting does a coach have in all the things considered and does the Purdue team outplay their talent level...Those are all legitimate questions
There is nothing in motion that prevents CE going to the basket...he went a few times last night. What team allows isolation unless your team provides enough threat that the opposing team is caught in an isolation. All year Matt tried to Isolate Biggie...and Haas with perimeter threats that hopefull;y required the defense to concern themselve with their shooting.
Yesterday before the game you can find my post where I said with my limited understanding of Kansas I would front the bigs and NOT devote any perimeter players to helping inside, but pressure Purdue players since they do not have the quickness to be a threat with the athleticism Kansas has. What I didn't know was that Kansas had enough physical beef that with a whistle swallowed when pushing that Kansas could play behind the bigs. Somewhere...sometime people are going to understand you cannot do the same thing with some talent as with all talent.
WHO was going to play above the rim for Purdue that Purdue could just lay it up around the rim and another grab it and stuff it? Biggie was one Burger boy and Kansas had 4 or 5...and those not burger boys for Kansas could probably go a lot of places. Blame Wilt for getting Kansas started
The legitimate argument and I think some don't fully understand the number game and other programs are how well should Purdue be able to recruit? What weighting does a coach have in all the things considered and does the Purdue team outplay their talent level...Those are all legitimate questions
I'm not talking about CE in motion. I'm talking about CE in pro-set isolation.
Okay, tell me why the other team will allow isolation without a threat elsewhere?
Why do you think there wouldn't be threats elsewhere? Mathias, VE, Thompson, Cline, and Swanigan can all shoot it. Can you just admit that you don't like the idea because it would be different, which equals being a change (the same thing with your anti-zone monologues)?
I will try again..."Okay, tell me why the other team will allow isolation without a threat elsewhere?"
Whatcha gonna do? How are you going to play the others so Carsen is isolated? You gonna put everyone one one side of the court to watch him? Tell me what are going to do and ANYTIME you want to discuss with some substance zone...go ahead. Start out by telling me what they do that man cannot. then proceed to tell me the differences in teh zones and why your preference and even though you never liked the match-up zone which is probably what you think is a zone 90% of the time...tell me why you don't like it? You state an opinion whihc is fine but can never state why you hold your opinion relative to the finer points of basketball and then you denegrate those that can offer the finer points as a means of diverting substantive comments into opinions.
Now, you made the statement and I asked how you were going to set your players so you could make the other team defend you in a way that isolates Carsen...who I really like, but sucked big time last night when against bigger, stronger and more experienced guards...course Matt was too stubborn to try to isolate Carsen against the inferior guards of Kansas.
The game winning drive to the bucket on the road (Maryland?) was a set play run for Carsen. That's at least once. Did you see the set play run the fist several possessions of the second half against ISU? The ball at the top of the key, a bckscreen for a vertical cutter going down the lane produces a layup. Next play same set. The cutter uses the screen but the D adjusts so the cutter stops, comes up and back screens the back screener producing another layup. These things are going on all the time and you think the entire game is just running motion. Does the fact that you don't know your ass from a hoop on a glass board ever enter your mind when you write this stuff? Both the offense and the defense change every single game. There are constantly changes made from game to game, half to half, and TV timeout to TV timeout. Just because you don't know enough to recognize it doesn't mean it isn't happening. If you want to say Painters recruiting is not good enough to win a NC you will get no argument from me. It has not been.
But I will call BS to arm chair critics saying that painter or any other coach is inept when you can't possibly know what they teach, how they teach it, or what their game plan is.
All you know is that you don't see a 2-3 zone, therefore he has no creativity or imagination.
Is Bill Self a good coach? I'll assume your answer is yes. Bill employed a zone last night...for about three possessions in the first half. We shredded it. He never used it again. It is not inherently good or bad. It depends on your teams capability to play it and/or your opponents capability to defeat it. If he had played zone all night we would have beaten them and that frankly should never happen.
***************The game winning drive to the bucket on the road (Maryland?) was a set play run for Carsen. That's at least once. Did you see the set play run the fist several possessions of the second half against ISU? The ball at the top of the key, a bckscreen for a vertical cutter going down the lane produces a layup. Next play same set. The cutter uses the screen but the D adjusts so the cutter stops, comes up and back screens the back screener producing another layup. These things are going on all the time and you think the entire game is just running motion. Does the fact that you don't know your ass from a hoop on a glass board ever enter your mind when you write this stuff? Both the offense and the defense change every single game. There are constantly changes made from game to game, half to half, and TV timeout to TV timeout. Just because you don't know enough to recognize it doesn't mean it isn't happening. If you want to say Painters recruiting is not good enough to win a NC you will get no argument from me. It has not been.
But I will call BS to arm chair critics saying that painter or any other coach is inept when you can't possibly know what they teach, how they teach it, or what their game plan is.
All you know is that you don't see a 2-3 zone, therefore he has no creativity or imagination.
Is Bill Self a good coach? I'll assume your answer is yes. Bill employed a zone last night...for about three possessions in the first half. We shredded it. He never used it again. It is not inherently good or bad. It depends on your teams capability to play it and/or your opponents capability to defeat it. If he had played zone all night we would have beaten them and that frankly should never happen.
I bit my tongue but know why on three different occasions when I considered teaching...why I didn't and it wasn't all about the money diff...
Purdue would have loved a zone rather than the superb athletes stealing this and that. Self thought...biggie is out for a sec...lets try it quick. Kansas is better than Purdue most days, but Purdue made that gap larger than it should last night. What amazes me is the lack of logic that when you start in a "motion offense" some can't understand that you automatically go into a flexible offense that is less predicatible than a preset set that has few options. I think both are needed, but "some" think motion is limiting rather than a play with fewer options other than to reset and start over. Same with man D...what can be more flexible than man...certainly not a zone...and so maybe even with the argument that more flexibility is wanted..it in fact is less flexibility is wanted...which is a whole another discussion.
I believe that motion is the best offense, but believe a few sets from time to time ...help rein in the players when they get out of sync a bit in smoothing out the offense.
This whole year we all knew and I thought it was generally agreed that Purdue was slow and not athletic compared to many teams, but when we played against them we were surprised. Four years or so ago Purdue was last in the Big and I can't honestly recall antime in teh last several decades Purdue was last in basketball. We know what happened with coaches, salaries and rules after the players were recruited...and the return of a winning culture. I didn't like how it ended, but it was a good year for Purdue. These are great kids that have maximized their abilities...and the is the perhaps the real reason why sports should be in college...even though we have moved from that....
Dakota Girl...we are on the same page and quite frequently are...as I am with many others. I enjoy your comments as well...
I do get sick of the negativity on here but most of the negative posts have some logic to them. That is good for healthy debate. But it really sets me off when the negativity is born of such flawed thinking or flat out ignorance. My extensive rant was probably too much but oh well, it felt good.
We do agree on most things which is a good thing since it means you are normaly right
. Thanks.
Wilt Chamberlain used to say he didn't go to KU for his asthma. Yup, he was well paid with $100 bills in his shoes after good games from tales I have heard.
Nojel Eastern@NEblessed_20 13h13 hours agoNojel Eastern Retweeted Purdue Basketball
My guys had a great season
***********************
Purdue BasketballVerified account@BoilerBall
#ThankYou
with my fragile ego...I need that vote of confidence.I do get sick of the negativity on here but most of the negative posts have some logic to them. That is good for healthy debate. But it really sets me off when the negativity is born of such flawed thinking or flat out ignorance. My extensive rant was probably too much but oh well, it felt good.
We do agree on most things which is a good thing since it means you are normaly right
Thanks.
I have no doubt that is true. I know what my brother-in-law was offered years ago as well
Nage..........posterized!!!The game winning drive to the bucket on the road (Maryland?) was a set play run for Carsen. That's at least once. Did you see the set play run the fist several possessions of the second half against ISU? The ball at the top of the key, a bckscreen for a vertical cutter going down the lane produces a layup. Next play same set. The cutter uses the screen but the D adjusts so the cutter stops, comes up and back screens the back screener producing another layup. These things are going on all the time and you think the entire game is just running motion. Does the fact that you don't know your ass from a hoop on a glass board ever enter your mind when you write this stuff? Both the offense and the defense change every single game. There are constantly changes made from game to game, half to half, and TV timeout to TV timeout. Just because you don't know enough to recognize it doesn't mean it isn't happening. If you want to say Painters recruiting is not good enough to win a NC you will get no argument from me. It has not been.
But I will call BS to arm chair critics saying that painter or any other coach is inept when you can't possibly know what they teach, how they teach it, or what their game plan is.
All you know is that you don't see a 2-3 zone, therefore he has no creativity or imagination.
Is Bill Self a good coach? I'll assume your answer is yes. Bill employed a zone last night...for about three possessions in the first half. We shredded it. He never used it again. It is not inherently good or bad. It depends on your teams capability to play it and/or your opponents capability to defeat it. If he had played zone all night we would have beaten them and that frankly should never happen.
Just need athletes. Unfortunately Painter has been getting just strictly shooters at SG recent years. Need to get some dynamic scorers Dakota has developed some moves but he is for the most part a 3 specialist. Carsen is different if he had a year of college basketball under his belt going into this year I think this season would of been much better. Hopefully Nojel Eastern can quickly transition because with him and Carsen we will have some athletes at guard next year.
They all could. Any recruit can go to any school. Why do you assume kids aren't student athletes? Because their teams are elite? Josh Jackson is the only one and done guy on Kansas right now all the other guys are staying in college for likely four years.
Holy crap, you 2 just need to get a room already!I do get sick of the negativity on here but most of the negative posts have some logic to them. That is good for healthy debate. But it really sets me off when the negativity is born of such flawed thinking or flat out ignorance. My extensive rant was probably too much but oh well, it felt good.
We do agree on most things which is a good thing since it means you are normaly right
Thanks.
Do you think the genearl studies major requirements at KU have to take a math, English, Biology and Chemistry course as freshman? This is why Purdue can't recruit with the big boys. It's not a level playing field.
The game winning drive to the bucket on the road (Maryland?) was a set play run for Carsen. That's at least once. Did you see the set play run the fist several possessions of the second half against ISU? The ball at the top of the key, a bckscreen for a vertical cutter going down the lane produces a layup. Next play same set. The cutter uses the screen but the D adjusts so the cutter stops, comes up and back screens the back screener producing another layup. These things are going on all the time and you think the entire game is just running motion. Does the fact that you don't know your ass from a hoop on a glass board ever enter your mind when you write this stuff? Both the offense and the defense change every single game. There are constantly changes made from game to game, half to half, and TV timeout to TV timeout. Just because you don't know enough to recognize it doesn't mean it isn't happening. If you want to say Painters recruiting is not good enough to win a NC you will get no argument from me. It has not been.
But I will call BS to arm chair critics saying that painter or any other coach is inept when you can't possibly know what they teach, how they teach it, or what their game plan is.
All you know is that you don't see a 2-3 zone, therefore he has no creativity or imagination.
Is Bill Self a good coach? I'll assume your answer is yes. Bill employed a zone last night...for about three possessions in the first half. We shredded it. He never used it again. It is not inherently good or bad. It depends on your teams capability to play it and/or your opponents capability to defeat it. If he had played zone all night we would have beaten them and that frankly should never happen.
That's not the same thing as isolation in a pro-set. That was iso in the motion.
I know there are changes being made in the games but often times, they are so minor that they are inconsequential to the outcome, particularly against the best of the best teams (ex: Villanova, Louisville, Kansas).
Different types of zones should be learned and utilized by the coaching staff. Can a team get hot shooting the ball against that type of defense? Yes, they can but that goes for saying with every type of defensive style or tactic used, including man-to-man defense. Just because a team makes their first few shots against a zone doesn't necessarily mean that they're going to for the rest of the game or that a team should abandon it after three or foue possessions. On the other hand, once Kansas got going against Purdue in the second half, most folks watching knew that Kansas was going to score on Purdue's man-to-man every single or every other possession for the rest of that game.
It's another weapon that can be used in the arsenal and can be effective when used at proper intervals throughout a game. Purdue needs all the weapons they can possibly possess to compete with the blue-blood programs.
Last edited:
Yes, in a pro-set, the spacing of the offense is such that his teammates are spread out on the wings and in the corners.
so true.
many of our same fans will make a reversal in sentiment depending on the time of year too.
after signing day -
many fans seem excited about new recruits, how they will fit in, how their skill set will help future teams excel further.
the day we are eliminated from the tourney (the next year, 2 years...) -
many of the same fans point to those recruits' attributes as something not as desired or even a deficiency. what was prior painter recruiting praise, turns into inadvertent ridicule.
recently, athleticism and guard play have been noted.
before that, we lacked getting a 5 star/elite/McAA (oh wait now we need 4 or 5), we lacked shooters, we lacked team players, etc etc.
i too hope this next class really addresses our needs going forward. Its a large and diverse class.
Last edited:
Similar threads
