I need to vent.

[purduepat1969]

I really do get this.

Here's where I draw the difference.

The hospital system has already accounted for all of the alternative care items that were mentioned. It's built in to the system.

However, this is a pandemic. Which is a crisis. This means the system was only built to handle so much overflow.

It's not the drugs, the shootings, the mountain climbers (wtf), that are putting a strain on the medical center.

To allude to that is illogical.

The strain is coming from the VOLUNTARY prolonged pandemic.

I'm cool with people choosing to not get vaccinated, and if the hospital can accommodate them that's fine.

But the overflow is what the overflow is. Whatever that "allotted" bed space is should be the max usable for a hospital. If the hospital is being underutilized for it's standard care than it can be used to accommodate even more -- but to block standard care patients because of the voluntary choice of some to keep the crisis going? That shit pisses me off.

In time the hospital system will adjust to the "new normal", but we aren't there yet.

I get that hospitals can't mandate this, nor governments. I'm not asking them to.

I'm asking the voluntary unvaccinated, who don't trust the majority of medical professionals, who don't trust the majority of scientists, who don't trust the CDC, and the standard medical system, who believe that they are at low risk --- to essentially see it through. Stick to their guns.

The nurses and staff that don't believe in vaccines have quit. So what you have left are the doctors, nurses, and medical staffs that believe in the vaccines. The ones that believe in the science that you doubt. The ones that told you that there was a risk. Why go to them for treatment after the fact? You don't believe in them, and you obviously don't trust them, their training, or their expertise.

Voluntarily stay home. Let your social media friends comfort you. The same ones that like and comment on your vaccine and mask posts. They will come to support you. They can tell you about the latest unapproved wonder treatment.

What you don't seem to get is the number of people risking their lives on a day to day basis to help the morons that I just listed. Morons, some of which understand the risks to others, but still decide to do what they're doing by choice. That's not "built in" to any system. Lives are lost regularly...

 

[PurdueFan1]

The fact that you don't recognize there are legitimate concerns with the long term consequences of a vaccine that was developed in record time with very little time to test shows that you have very little understanding of science yourself.

There are nurses who have given blood showing they have antibodies that are otherwise healthy and still being required to get a vaccine. There is absolutely ZERO need for this. I have relatives (husband and wife who are both nurses) who both had COVID and are now being required to take the vaccine as terms of their employment. They are both young (early 30s) and didn't want the shot due to unknown long term impacts. The husband is so dumb that he's in training to become a nurse/practitioner (yes, that is sarcasm).

I took the vaccine because I'm over 50 and have seen some folks my age, with and without complications, pass away. But if I were younger and had my entire life ahead of me, I would question the long term affects of the vaccine. BTW, I'm a believer in vaccines (polio, measles, etc) where longer term impact is more known.

So please stop with your ignorant judgement...

Ignorant is getting medical “information” from Facebook memes, which is clearly what you’re doing. That’s what concerns me.

 

[purduepat1969]

Ignorant is getting medical “information” from Facebook memes, which is clearly what you’re doing. That’s what concerns me.

What?? When the hell did I post a Facebook meme and state anything about it. Please show me?

 

[gr8indoorsman]

The fact that you don't recognize there are legitimate concerns with the long term consequences

I think you’ll get an argument about the word “legitimate.”

 

[purduepat1969]

I think you’ll get an argument about the word “legitimate.”

OK, I'll agree with the use of legitimate, as no one knows the long term side effects. And yes, side effects with vaccines are rare. But that doesn't mean it can't happen. I personally felt OK taking the risk, as I'm over 50.

But for those below 40, especially those who have contracted COVID already and have anti-bodies present, it's extremely rare to have serious complications with COVID. There were less than 10,000 deaths of people below 40.

I understand we're trying to stop the spread via vaccination. But for those under 40 who have concerns about unknown long term effects, why take the risk?

 

[EdwardElric]

Ignorant is getting medical “information” from Facebook memes, which is clearly what you’re doing. That’s what concerns me.

do you think the nurses we are talking about are also getting their medical information from Facebook?

 

[BleedinGold]

The fact that you don't recognize there are legitimate concerns with the long term consequences of a vaccine that was developed in record time with very little time to test shows that you have very little understanding of science yourself.

Well this "record time" has been debunked pretty much everywhere.

Covid also known as SARs-CoV-2 ... which you may recognize the "SARS" part of that designation.

Covid Vaccine development didn't start in 2020, but instead it got much more serious after the November 2002 outbreak of the first SARS virus.

There is much more that goes into this but I'm not sure you care. If you do, I would suggest looking in to the history of how the Covid vaccines were developed. There is a lot of information out there about it.

There are nurses who have given blood showing they have antibodies that are otherwise healthy and still being required to get a vaccine. There is absolutely ZERO need for this. I have relatives (husband and wife who are both nurses) who both had COVID and are now being required to take the vaccine as terms of their employment. They are both young (early 30s) and didn't want the shot due to unknown long term impacts. The husband is so dumb that he's in training to become a nurse/practitioner (yes, that is sarcasm).

Well lets see. A couple of things to address this

1) A person who has a prior infection of Covid likely has some quantity of natural immunity. However it's impossible on an individual basis to know how much. There is no standard measurement without looking at each individuals blood to tell whether they have enough antibodies to resist a secondary infection.

Thus it's recommended that all previously infected persons get a vaccine to ENSURE that they have enough antibodies to prevent a second infection.

2) This is the same reason that Moderna/Pfizer vaccines require two shots. The first shot creates enough anti-bodies for some protection. The 2nd shot creates enough anti-bodies for MASS protection. You just don't know what end of the antibody spectrum a natural infection has left you with.

3) Antibodies from natural infection, like vaccines, have a shelf-life. For vaccines that 95% effectiveness drops to 84% by 6 months. By 8 months it's down to 55-65% (data is still coming in).

For natural immunity that's on an individual basis. If you started with a high antibody load (like a 2-dose vaccine) you're probably on the same timeline of protection as the vaccine. But if you didn't have a high anti-body response with your natural infection that antibody support is likely much shorter.

So how can one know for sure? Get the vaccine. Get protected. Protect others. Simple

I took the vaccine because I'm over 50 and have seen some folks my age, with and without complications, pass away. But if I were younger and had my entire life ahead of me, I would question the long term affects of the vaccine. BTW, I'm a believer in vaccines (polio, measles, etc) where longer term impact is more known.

Take a look at the light blue in the chart. You sure you still want to make that recommendation?

Source :: https://gis.cdc.gov/grasp/covidnet/COVID19_5.html

So please stop with your ignorant judgement...

Ironic use of the word ignorant.

 

[BleedinGold]

What you don't seem to get is the number of people risking their lives on a day to day basis to help the morons that I just listed. Morons, some of which understand the risks to others, but still decide to do what they're doing by choice. That's not "built in" to any system. Lives are lost regularly...

Listen if a drug user overdoses. The hospital can try to save them. If the drug user dies. That sucks.

If a mountain climber (still a really weird example) falls and health workers can't save him? That sucks

Their care is all already factored into the capacity of the healthcare system. And it has little impact on the standard of care of other patients that fall under cases seen by hospitals.

The difference, which you aren't getting here, is that pandemic health care is covered only by overflow capacity of the hospital system. Only so much of that is available. When there was no vaccine, it was first come first serve. I get that.

But there is a vaccine now. And people absolutely have the right to not take it. But they should do so with the acceptance that they shouldn't use the overstrained healthcare system until it can accommodate them.

At some point, the health care system will adjust for the unvaccinated that will need care. But right now that's only covered by overflow beds. The problem right now is that there are so many unvaccinated people flooding the hospital system that it's limiting the hospital's capacity to be able to provide standard care for other patients. That is the distinction I'm drawing.

 

[BleedinGold]

do you think the nurses we are talking about are also getting their medical information from Facebook?

Some of them absolutely. Probably much more prevalent among CNAs and Nurse Practitioners, but I'm sure some RNs may be as well.

There are also some teachers that are getting their information about CRT from Facebook too.

 

[purduepat1969]

Well this "record time" has been debunked pretty much everywhere.

Covid also known as SARs-CoV-2 ... which you may recognize the "SARS" part of that designation.

Covid Vaccine development didn't start in 2020, but instead it got much more serious after the November 2002 outbreak of the first SARS virus.

There is much more that goes into this but I'm not sure you care. If you do, I would suggest looking in to the history of how the Covid vaccines were developed. There is a lot of information out there about it.



Well lets see. A couple of things to address this

1) A person who has a prior infection of Covid likely has some quantity of natural immunity. However it's impossible on an individual basis to know how much. There is no standard measurement without looking at each individuals blood to tell whether they have enough antibodies to resist a secondary infection.

Thus it's recommended that all previously infected persons get a vaccine to ENSURE that they have enough antibodies to prevent a second infection.

2) This is the same reason that Moderna/Pfizer vaccines require two shots. The first shot creates enough anti-bodies for some protection. The 2nd shot creates enough anti-bodies for MASS protection. You just don't know what end of the antibody spectrum a natural infection has left you with.

3) Antibodies from natural infection, like vaccines, have a shelf-life. For vaccines that 95% effectiveness drops to 84% by 6 months. By 8 months it's down to 55-65% (data is still coming in).

For natural immunity that's on an individual basis. If you started with a high antibody load (like a 2-dose vaccine) you're probably on the same timeline of protection as the vaccine. But if you didn't have a high anti-body response with your natural infection that antibody support is likely much shorter.

So how can one know for sure? Get the vaccine. Get protected. Protect others. Simple



Take a look at the light blue in the chart. You sure you still want to make that recommendation?

Source :: https://gis.cdc.gov/grasp/covidnet/COVID19_5.html



Ironic use of the word ignorant.

I guess the NYT and several other sources didn't get the "debunked" info on record time of the COVID-19 vaccine development? Previous SARS vaccine work gave them a roadmap, but it had nothing to do with the actual COVID-19 development. Development steps were completed in parallel instead of in series. But it WAS developed in a record time period.

Trials started in 2020. The FDA granted emergency use authorization, which is highly unusual. Larger scale trials were the actual vaccination of the greater population.

Coronavirus Vaccine Tracker

A look at all the vaccines that have reached trials in humans.

www.nytimes.com

Timeline of the COVID-19 vaccine development

Each year, millions of vaccines to prevent infectious diseases are given to infants, children, adolescents and adults — and it’s critical that they are safe and effective. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) work together through an...

www.bjc.org

The light blue in the chart is hospitalizations, not death. Someone younger than 40 with antibodies is highly unlikely to die from COVID based on the statistics. There were 10,000 total deaths in the US from individuals below 40 years of age.

 

[purduepat1969]

Listen if a drug user overdoses. The hospital can try to save them. If the drug user dies. That sucks.

If a mountain climber (still a really weird example) falls and health workers can't save him? That sucks

Their care is all already factored into the capacity of the healthcare system. And it has little impact on the standard of care of other patients that fall under cases seen by hospitals.

The difference, which you aren't getting here, is that pandemic health care is covered only by overflow capacity of the hospital system. Only so much of that is available. When there was no vaccine, it was first come first serve. I get that.

But there is a vaccine now. And people absolutely have the right to not take it. But they should do so with the acceptance that they shouldn't use the overstrained healthcare system until it can accommodate them.

At some point, the health care system will adjust for the unvaccinated that will need care. But right now that's only covered by overflow beds. The problem right now is that there are so many unvaccinated people flooding the hospital system that it's limiting the hospital's capacity to be able to provide standard care for other patients. That is the distinction I'm drawing.

And the distinction I'm drawing, based on your logic, is that we should let those that participate in risky behavior die because those actions also put others at risk. Sending someone out to rescue a mountain climber stuck on the side of a mountain is an unnecessary risk to the rescuer. Sending a paramedic into a house where deadly illegal drugs are located is an unnecessary risk to a paramedic. Each one of these situations could be avoided since the individual made a choice to participate in risky activities, just like those who don't get vaccinated. See how that works?

 

[BleedinGold]

I guess the NYT and several other sources didn't get the "debunked" info on record time of the COVID-19 vaccine development? Previous SARS vaccine work gave them a roadmap, but it had nothing to do with the actual COVID-19 development. Development steps were completed in parallel instead of in series. But it WAS developed in a record time period.

Yes I get the marketing spin that was put on it.

And yeah record trial time? Sure. Record approval process time? Sure. But a vaccine for a pandemic level coronavirus was being developed for a very long time.

There is a myth that the research behind the vaccines didn't start until the actual outbreak. That's simply not true. A lot was already known and done and just needed to be tweaked.

Then the record part of it was in the trials and approval. That was accomplished with an absolute shit-ton of capital from Trump's Operation Warp Speed, willing study participants, and coordinated research/work between pharmaceutical companies, research companies, etc.

So maybe we are just using different definitions for development. I like to consider all of the research that actually goes into the vaccine as part of that process. Not just starting the time from when a trial starts.

Trials started in 2020. The FDA granted emergency use authorization, which is highly unusual. Larger scale trials were the actual vaccination of the greater population.

Its a pandemic. By definition, it makes everything about it unusual.

Coronavirus Vaccine Tracker

A look at all the vaccines that have reached trials in humans.

www.nytimes.com

Timeline of the COVID-19 vaccine development

Each year, millions of vaccines to prevent infectious diseases are given to infants, children, adolescents and adults — and it’s critical that they are safe and effective. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) work together through an...

www.bjc.org

The light blue in the chart is hospitalizations, not death. Someone younger than 40 with antibodies is highly unlikely to die from COVID based on the statistics. There were 10,000 total deaths in the US from individuals below 40 years of age.

That's fine.

If you know someone younger than 40 who is unvaccinated please let them know the hospitals are full and they should just stay home and not get treated if they develop a symptomatic infection. Unfortunately, there currently isn't enough capacity to accommodate them in our healthcare system. If they don't want to take that risk then they should possibly reconsider getting vaccinated.

I'm truly fine either way.

 

[BleedinGold]

And the distinction I'm drawing, based on your logic, is that we should let those that participate in risky behavior die because those actions also put others at risk. Sending someone out to rescue a mountain climber stuck on the side of a mountain is an unnecessary risk to the rescuer. Sending a paramedic into a house where deadly illegal drugs are located is an unnecessary risk to a paramedic. Each one of these situations could be avoided since the individual made a choice to participate in risky activities, just like those who don't get vaccinated. See how that works?

I'm saying if I have to choose between the risky mountain climber and the risky unvaccinated person then the mountain climber gets priority because the system already accounts for his/her risky behavior.

Over time the system will adapt to accommodate the risky behavior of the unvaccinated. We aren't there yet. When we are there will be room available for them. Until then that room is capped.

This shouldn't be a big deal. I mean all of the treatments for Covid are "experimental" too right? You wouldn't want to trust the doctors and medical community to treat you with experimental things. So just stay home. Don't be a lab rat!

The voluntary unvaccinated shouldn't even have a desire to run to the very system they don't trust for the vaccine. So just follow it through. Stay home and put your faith in your decisions.

 

[SKYDOG]

To be honest, we shouldn’t have doctors and nurses who don’t believe in science using science to do their jobs. The profession is ultimately better off without them.

Before these people were considered hero’s now they are vilified. Act and do what’s told or be thrown to the curb as you’re not one of us.

 

[PurdueFan1]

What?? When the hell did I post a Facebook meme and state anything about it. Please show me?

Considering your profile pic is absolutely from a meme somewhere, I stand by what I said.

 

[SDBoiler1]

Yes I get the marketing spin that was put on it.

And yeah record trial time? Sure. Record approval process time? Sure. But a vaccine for a pandemic level coronavirus was being developed for a very long time.

There is a myth that the research behind the vaccines didn't start until the actual outbreak. That's simply not true. A lot was already known and done and just needed to be tweaked.

Then the record part of it was in the trials and approval. That was accomplished with an absolute shit-ton of capital from Trump's Operation Warp Speed, willing study participants, and coordinated research/work between pharmaceutical companies, research companies, etc.

So maybe we are just using different definitions for development. I like to consider all of the research that actually goes into the vaccine as part of that process. Not just starting the time from when a trial starts.



Its a pandemic. By definition, it makes everything about it unusual.



That's fine.

If you know someone younger than 40 who is unvaccinated please let them know the hospitals are full and they should just stay home and not get treated if they develop a symptomatic infection. Unfortunately, there currently isn't enough capacity to accommodate them in our healthcare system. If they don't want to take that risk then they should possibly reconsider getting vaccinated.

I'm truly fine either way.

What you said is not really true. The mRNA technology which the Pfizer and Moderna COVID-19 vaccines used, were never approved by the FDA or used on any kind of scale prior to 2020. Yes, BioNTech did research previously, but mRNA was not used in an approved vaccine for mass usage prior.

 

[MilwaukeeBoilerFan]

I’m all for it.

But I am also all for telling people who aren’t working or looking for work (excluding those with disabilities and retired), that they are also cut off.

You either join society or suffer the consequences

I vote yes to both issues. Get Covid and unvaccinated, live with it. No work = no pay, if you are able bodied, get a job or off the Govt unemployment checks. That is WAY...WAY...WAY overdue.

 

[BleedinGold]

What you said is not really true. The mRNA technology which the Pfizer and Moderna COVID-19 vaccines used, were never approved by the FDA or used on any kind of scale prior to 2020.

Here is an article from 2018 all about mRNA.

mRNA vaccines — a new era in vaccinology - Nature Reviews Drug Discovery

mRNA vaccines represent a promising alternative to conventional vaccine approaches, but their application has been hampered by instability and delivery issues. Here, Pardi and colleagues discuss recent advances in mRNA vaccine technology, assess mRNA vaccines currently in development for cancer...

www.nature.com

Let me pull out some of the important quotes to make it easier.

"Over the past decade, major technological innovation and research investment have enabled mRNA to become a promising therapeutic tool in the fields of vaccine development and protein replacement therapy."

So by 2018 there has already been a lot of research investment in to mRNA. It wasn't something that was new. In the article it talks about mRNA's first uses in animal tests in 1990 (which you likely were aware)

"The use of mRNA has several beneficial features over subunit, killed and live attenuated virus, as well as DNA-based vaccines. First, safety: as mRNA is a non-infectious, non-integrating platform, there is no potential risk of infection or insertional mutagenesis."

If I couldn't tell you how many times I saw misinformation about how the covid vaccine can give someone covid or transmit covid. It's been known for a very long time just how safe mRNA was.

"...mRNA vaccines have the potential for rapid, inexpensive and scalable manufacturing, mainly owing to the high yields of in vitro transcription reactions."

This was a major, known advantage of mRNA and why it was already being developed for a coronavirus prior to 2020, based off of the original SARS outbreak from 2002. Science and pharmaceutical companies were years ahead on development on this, and they just leveraged it in 2020.

We were due for a pandemic and scientists knew it and were preparing for it.

This is the KEY to why human trials were able to start within weeks of the pandemic's outbreak.

"The mRNA vaccine field is developing extremely rapidly; a large body of preclinical data has accumulated over the past several years, and multiple human clinical trials have been initiated."

There had already been plenty of human clinical trials of mRNA that had already confirmed the safety and efficacy profile of mRNA. That wasn't part of the Covid Vaccine trial. The only thing they needed to know about the Covid vaccine was it's efficacy and any side effects.

Yes, BioNTech did research previously, but mRNA was not used in an approved vaccine for mass usage prior.

Okay. So what if there wasn't mass usage prior. There has been mass usage now. There were mass clinical trials prior to FDA emergency approval.

This excuse is worn out, but I get it if individuals were worried about it 10 months ago.

Once full approval is given within a couple of weeks this excuse is simply no longer valid as a logical reason to not get vaccinated.

 

[SDBoiler1]

Here is an article from 2018 all about mRNA.

mRNA vaccines — a new era in vaccinology - Nature Reviews Drug Discovery

mRNA vaccines represent a promising alternative to conventional vaccine approaches, but their application has been hampered by instability and delivery issues. Here, Pardi and colleagues discuss recent advances in mRNA vaccine technology, assess mRNA vaccines currently in development for cancer...

www.nature.com

Let me pull out some of the important quotes to make it easier.

"Over the past decade, major technological innovation and research investment have enabled mRNA to become a promising therapeutic tool in the fields of vaccine development and protein replacement therapy."

So by 2018 there has already been a lot of research investment in to mRNA. It wasn't something that was new. In the article it talks about mRNA's first uses in animal tests in 1990 (which you likely were aware)

"The use of mRNA has several beneficial features over subunit, killed and live attenuated virus, as well as DNA-based vaccines. First, safety: as mRNA is a non-infectious, non-integrating platform, there is no potential risk of infection or insertional mutagenesis."

If I couldn't tell you how many times I saw misinformation about how the covid vaccine can give someone covid or transmit covid. It's been known for a very long time just how safe mRNA was.

"...mRNA vaccines have the potential for rapid, inexpensive and scalable manufacturing, mainly owing to the high yields of in vitro transcription reactions."

This was a major, known advantage of mRNA and why it was already being developed for a coronavirus prior to 2020, based off of the original SARS outbreak from 2002. Science and pharmaceutical companies were years ahead on development on this, and they just leveraged it in 2020.

We were due for a pandemic and scientists knew it and were preparing for it.

This is the KEY to why human trials were able to start within weeks of the pandemic's outbreak.

"The mRNA vaccine field is developing extremely rapidly; a large body of preclinical data has accumulated over the past several years, and multiple human clinical trials have been initiated."

There had already been plenty of human clinical trials of mRNA that had already confirmed the safety and efficacy profile of mRNA. That wasn't part of the Covid Vaccine trial. The only thing they needed to know about the Covid vaccine was it's efficacy and any side effects.



Okay. So what if there wasn't mass usage prior. There has been mass usage now. There were mass clinical trials prior to FDA emergency approval.

This excuse is worn out, but I get it if individuals were worried about it 10 months ago.

Once full approval is given within a couple of weeks this excuse is simply no longer valid as a logical reason to not get vaccinated.

FFS, you go through paragraphs, basically acknowledge I was right in the end (this was the first time an mRNA vaccine got widespread use against a coronavirus) and then say “there is no excuse to not get vaccinated”.

No shit, I did with the Pfizer vaccine in March and April.

 

[BleedinGold]

FFS, you go through paragraphs, basically acknowledge I was right in the end (this was the first time an mRNA vaccine got widespread use against a coronavirus) and then say “there is no excuse to not get vaccinated”.

No shit, I did with the Pfizer vaccine in March and April.

You said what I said in my first post wasn't true.

That's what I disagreed with.

Maybe if you were more specific about what in my first post wasn't true I could better address it.

You brought mRNA as if it was something that was new and like it was a rushed R&D on mRNA.

Point out what was untrue please as that's what I didn't agree with and still don't.

 

[charlespig]

You are talking about accounting and I am talking about economic theory.

ROFL. gr8 is talking actually running a business, and you are talking about economic *THEORY*.

As Albert Einstein said, "In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not.”

Economics is not like physics where you can calculate the exact velocity or acceleration. Economics is imprecise because people are imprecise. Economic theory assumes people behave like homo-economicus but in reality they aren't. As I've pointed out already, you sound like the fool who reads some economic textbook and naively assume that's how it works in the real world. Actually, it's even worse. You are misinterpreting (or maybe simply confused about) those economic theories, as many have pointed out to you.

But keep going. I must admit your reasoning is entertaining and it's a guilty pleasure to see you keep making a fool out of yourself.

 

[charlespig]

And the distinction I'm drawing, based on your logic, is that we should let those that participate in risky behavior die because those actions also put others at risk. Sending someone out to rescue a mountain climber stuck on the side of a mountain is an unnecessary risk to the rescuer. Sending a paramedic into a house where deadly illegal drugs are located is an unnecessary risk to a paramedic. Each one of these situations could be avoided since the individual made a choice to participate in risky activities, just like those who don't get vaccinated. See how that works?

So sounds like you are agreeing with BleedInGold then? From what I gather, he is basically saying that the unvaccinated (if they choose to remain unvaccinated) should bear the consequences of their risky behavior, and not put additional strain to the health system that is not built to accommodate a drastic increase. So if the unvaccinated gets sick, DO NOT GO TO THE HOSPITAL. Just lock themselves in their room until they are healthy again.

Unfortunately, reality is almost 99% of hospitalized Covid patients are unvaccinated. These selfish people are straining public resources when they could have easily gotten free vaccination.

COVID-19 Vaccines

Vaccines are seen as one of the best ways to stop COVID-19. Learn more about the types of vaccines, including the newly approved Novavax.

www.webmd.com

 

[BleedinGold]

And the distinction I'm drawing, based on your logic, is that we should let those that participate in risky behavior die because those actions also put others at risk. Sending someone out to rescue a mountain climber stuck on the side of a mountain is an unnecessary risk to the rescuer. Sending a paramedic into a house where deadly illegal drugs are located is an unnecessary risk to a paramedic. Each one of these situations could be avoided since the individual made a choice to participate in risky activities, just like those who don't get vaccinated. See how that works?

And each rescuer volunteered to do that. They want to take that risk.

A patient who is waiting for a bed for standard care can't be seen because the unvaccinated are not only using up all of the overflow beds that are there for a crisis but are now also taking beds from patients that need them for standard care.

That's the difference.

A standard care patient isn't a rescuer. They didn't volunteer to die because they couldnt receive adequate care due to an unvaccinated individual putting an UNNECESSARY and VOLUNTARY strain on the healthcare system and it's workers.

Your analogy of a rescuer isn't adequate.

My grandmother isn't a drug user. She isn't a cliff jumper and those that are aren't the reason why she waited for 17 hours to get a bed in the hospital.

The only reason the drug user, cliff jumper, my grandmother, a traffic accident victim, a rescuer, a sick kid, etc can't get a bed right now if needed is because the unvaccinated are choosing to perpetually keep the healthcare system in crisis.

Do you get that yet?

 

[charlespig]

FFS, you go through paragraphs, basically acknowledge I was right in the end (this was the first time an mRNA vaccine got widespread use against a coronavirus) and then say “there is no excuse to not get vaccinated”.

No shit, I did with the Pfizer vaccine in March and April.

I am not quite following what you mean.

Yes, this was the first time an mRNA vaccine got widespread use against a coronavirus.

So yeah, I can absolutely understand the concern with vaccine a year ago or 10 months ago. Heck, I shared the similar concerns too.

But after administering the vaccine on hundreds of millions of people, whatever side effect is pretty well known, including the rare cases of Guillain-Barré Syndrome and heart inflammation. So the "too new" is no longer a sound excuse.

As for long-term side effect, "the mRNA molecules used in the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines are especially fragile, so they are out of your body in a day or so.”

Historically, vaccine side-effects appearing right away. That's because "The vaccines subsequently get to work stimulating the immune system so it can memorize the virus’s blueprint and mount a quick response if it encounters the real thing later. 'This process is completed within about six weeks,' says Inci Yildirim, a vaccinologist and pediatric infectious diseases specialist at Yale Medicine. That’s why serious adverse effects that might be triggered by the process emerge within this time frame, after which everything is put on a shelf in the body’s library of known pathogens."

Vaccines are highly unlikely to cause side effects long after getting the shot

Science shows that even the most serious side effects for any vaccine, including COVID-19, occur within just a few weeks.

www.nationalgeographic.com

 

[purduepat1969]

And each rescuer volunteered to do that. They want to take that risk.

A patient who is waiting for a bed for standard care can't be seen because the unvaccinated are not only using up all of the overflow beds that are there for a crisis but are now also taking beds from patients that need them for standard care.

That's the difference.

A standard care patient isn't a rescuer. They didn't volunteer to die because they couldnt receive adequate care due to an unvaccinated individual putting an UNNECESSARY and VOLUNTARY strain on the healthcare system and it's workers.

Your analogy of a rescuer isn't adequate.

My grandmother isn't a drug user. She isn't a cliff jumper and those that are aren't the reason why she waited for 17 hours to get a bed in the hospital.

Do you get that yet?

You and I will agree to disagree on this. Innocent victims of drug use that get killed in the trade aren't volunteering for shit so that druggies can lie around getting high. And it's still a huge unnecessary risk to first responders and rescuers that respond to morons who want a thrill.

 

[purduepat1969]

Considering your profile pic is absolutely from a meme somewhere, I stand by what I said.

My profile pic is an actual picture of Biden downloaded from media archives. No meme involved. Stand by your false statement all you want sh!t for brains.

 

[BleedinGold]

You and I will agree to disagree on this. Innocent victims of drug use that get killed in the trade aren't volunteering for shit so that druggies can lie around getting high. And it's still a huge unnecessary risk to first responders and rescuers that respond to morons who want a thrill.

I don't agree on that.

But they aren't the reason there aren't enough ICU beds or regular hospital beds.

The system has factored all of that in.

It hasn't had a chance to factor in the 90 million Americans that are voluntarily unvaccinated and clogging up the hospitals beds, ER rooms, and ICU units.

At some point it will, but for now it hasn't.

It's that simple.

 

[purduepat1969]

I don't agree on that.

But they aren't the reason there aren't enough ICU beds or regular hospital beds.

The system has factored all of that in.

It hasn't had a chance to factor in the 90 million Americans that are voluntarily unvaccinated and clogging up the hospitals beds, ER rooms, and ICU units.

At some point it will, but for now it hasn't.

It's that simple.

You still don't seem to get it. There will always be morons in this world that do unnecessary things that put others at risk. When they put other innocent people at risk, and things happen to the morons, we don't just decide to not give them medical care despite their behavior. It's that simple. I'm sorry about what happened to your grandmother, but the human beings who weren't vaccinated were in the hospital first. Would you like to be the person who makes a decision to kick a human being out of ICU so your grandmother gets their spot? Sorry, but life isn't always fair.

 

[charlespig]

You still don't seem to get it. There will always be morons in this world that do unnecessary things that put others at risk. When they put other innocent people at risk, and things happen to the morons, we don't just decide to not give them medical care despite their behavior. It's that simple. I'm sorry about what happened to your grandmother, but the human beings who weren't vaccinated were in the hospital first. Would you like to be the person who makes a decision to kick a human being out of ICU so your grandmother gets their spot? Sorry, but life isn't always fair.

I think BiG is venting precisely b/c he knows that life is unfair and he can't kick a human being out of ICU, even if that person is irresponsible. That's the frustration that makes him feeling the need to vent. (It's like if people vent about Will Wade still having a job despite his strong a$$ offer, they are venting precisely b/c they know life is unfair and that many times cheaters go unpunished).

The point isn't about not giving the morons medical care, but that they should follow through with the rationale for their behavior ("I am skeptical b/c there is not enough research on a Covid vaccine") by staying home when they catch Covid (b/c there is not enough research on how to treat Covid either).

 

[PurdueFan1]

My profile pic is an actual picture of Biden downloaded from media archives. No meme involved. Stand by your false statement all you want sh!t for brains.

Oh I know exactly what it is and why you have it as your profile pic, Pat. I know it’s a real picture but you ripped it from some idiot meme, 100%. You’re not that deep, bud.

 

[purduepat1969]

Oh I know exactly what it is and why you have it as your profile pic, Pat. I know it’s a real picture but you ripped it from some idiot meme, 100%. You’re not that deep, bud.

Yes, you're so right. I ripped it from a meme. Instead of Googling Biden sniffing photos, I spent the time looking for a meme and then cropping the photo out of the meme. Gosh, you're just so smart for calling me out on that...

 

[Crayfish57]

Oh I know exactly what it is and why you have it as your profile pic, Pat. I know it’s a real picture but you ripped it from some idiot meme, 100%. You’re not that deep, bud.

How did you feel about the dumbass made up meme of Trump BuilderBob flew so proudly forever?

 

[Level 42]

You’re not that deep, bud.

Hello pot, meet kettle.

 

[PurdueFan1]

Yes, you're so right. I ripped it from a meme. Instead of Googling Biden sniffing photos, I spent the time looking for a meme and then cropping the photo out of the meme. Gosh, you're just so smart for calling me out on that...

Oh even better, a 50+ year old admitting to searching for “Biden sniffing photos”. That’s not creepy at all.

 

[PurdueFan1]

Hello pot, meet kettle.

A level 1 burn from a level 42 moron.

 

[Level 42]

Oh even better, a 50+ year old admitting to searching for “Biden sniffing photos”. That’s not creepy at all.

They are all over so it's not even that hard to find. You're doing a terrible job at twisting this against pat.

 

[Level 42]

A level 1 burn from a level 42 moron.

Oh, you got me. Ouch. I'm crushed.

Thanks for proving being a leftist is a mental disorder. It really wasn't in doubt to begin with, but you certainly drive that point home.

 

[PurdueFan1]

How did you feel about the dumbass made up meme of Trump BuilderBob flew so proudly forever?

Maybe if you stalk him some more he’ll tell you why.

 

[PurdueFan1]

They are all over so it's not even that hard to find. You're doing a terrible job at twisting this against pat.

No twisting here. Pat admitted to it. Creepy.

 

[PurdueFan1]

Oh, you got me. Ouch. I'm crushed.

Thanks for proving being a leftist is a mental disorder. It really wasn't in doubt to begin with, but you certainly drive that point home.

You’re on a roll this morning, bud. Just hopped out of bed filled with them, I see.