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Doom and gloom...

punaj

All-American
Sep 9, 2005
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Liberty, KY
There were a lot of people on this board that didn't like the idea of being ranked highly this year, especially when we cracked the top ten. Didn't like the idea of being hunted rather than being the hunter... well, I hope you are all happy now as we may fall out of the top 25. That sucks but we haven't played well the past few weeks and deserve it.

That said, we only have 3 losses.

1) To Bulter, a pretty good team (that is now on a bit of a cold streak too).
2) To Iowa, a home game that got away from us, but to a very good team.
3) To a really bad team, on the road in the B1G where anyone can beat anyone. Maybe not Rutgers, but anyway.

I'd much rather see these games early in the season that late, when the committee is watching more games and making up their minds on who gets in and seeding. And definitely better than losing in the tourney.

This team has now seen what it feels like to lose to bad teams, blow huge leads, and get pressed. Let's hope they can learn from these losses and become a better, and more importantly, consistent team. We've seen just about everyone on this team play really well at one point or another and I don't think that is luck or a magical stretch of coaching. If we can just become more consistent, we can get back to where we thought we were going to be at the end of this year.

Boiler up fellow boilers!
 
for me it has less to do with ranking and more to do with the fact that we've all but destroyed our chances of winning the B1G already. Losing to Bulter is super annoying but doesn't really matter. Our place in the B1G will matter. Iowa and especially Illinois are going to cost us big time. I don't know, maybe this team responds to being on the edge of disaster. They did last year.
 
I hope you are right Punaj. We still have talent, and as deep of a team as CMP has ever had. Can he rally the guys and get them to perform at a high level? It's not just this year that is at stake, but recruiting in the future as well. Recruits are seeing what CMP can do with talent, and especially a top 20 guy like Biggie. This year could really impact 2017 recruiting, and set the stage for what happens with Purdue basketball over the next 5 years.
 
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I agree with TopSecret, I'm more disappointed about IA and IL then I am Butler. Those are 2 losses that I'm pretty sure we had all "penciled" in as wins as you went down through the schedule before conference season started. Now that means we have to come up with one or two that we weren't thinking we would get. @ Maryland, @IU @ Iowa, or MSU at home. Where do those 2 games come from??

I'm trying to stay away from the threads that are just shredding the team and trying to stay constructive and focus on what we can do to stay in the race for a B10 title. I agree with you Punaj, we have seen all of the guys play well at times. We need to put that together at the same time.
 
There was a lot of talk of an undefeated January, and I for one thought that was very possible. It's going to be tough the rest of the way in the B1G. Gotta show up ready to play ever night.
 
Since it looks like this thread is staying out of the weeds.....

Can we have a little discussion about what we would like to see different?

1. Caleb. He is going to be a very good college player. Right now he turns the ball over too much. Do you think his minutes should be cut some, or let him play through it and learn on the fly?

2. AJ minutes. I would like to see him play as many minutes as he possibly can. In the 2nd half last night he was on the bench for extended minutes and I couldn't figure out why? Do you think this was just an oversight by CMP or was there a strategic reason?

3. Vince. He has to become more aggressive and take the ball to the basket. Our offense becomes so stagnated at times and we need someone to create off the dribble. We saw flashes of it against MI with he and Hill. I just want more of it.

Thoughts...??

If this thread goes the way of others in the past 12 hours I will just step aside.
 
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I agree with your three points @Dryfly88.

In addition, I want to see crisper entry passes from the guards into the bigs. It burns me up when, with our length outside, we lazily throw the ball in and I am worried every time that we are going to get it tipped away. No reason for that. Also, the bigs need to set up lower. There is no reason, with their size and strength advantage that they shouldn't be able to get the entry pass and go right up and dunk over anyone that is guarding them rather than shooting an 8-10 foot hook shot.
 
Since it looks like this thread is staying out of the weeds.....

Can we have a little discussion about what we would like to see different?

1. Caleb. He is going to be a very good college player. Right now he turns the ball over too much. Do you think his minutes should be cut some, or let him play through it and learn on the fly?

2. AJ minutes. I would like to see him play as many minutes as he possibly can. In the 2nd half last night he was on the bench for extended minutes and I couldn't figure out why? Do you think this was just an oversight by CMP or was there a strategic reason?

3. Vince. He has to become more aggressive and take the ball to the basket. Our offense becomes so stagnated at times and we need someone to create off the dribble. We saw flashes of it against MI with he and Hill. I just want more of it.

Thoughts...??

If this thread goes the way of others in the past 12 hours I will just step aside.

I feel like sometimes we fall too in love with our height advantage and don't know when to abandon it when the other team is actually making it work against us.
When the opponent just completely packs it in defensively and the refs are calling a perimeter oriented game (usually both of these are easily identified in the first 5-10 minutes), I wouldn't mind seeing a lineup on the floor with at least 3, preferably 4, triple threat players on the floor. What this essentially means is you cannot have 2 bigs on the floor at the same time, and your big must have some reasonable threat to draw the defender out from under the basket. This is when Isaac needs to sit for long stretches. Then, you run a few clear out plays to open the driving lanes just to keep the defense on their heels. When the refs are calling the mugging and the reach ins under the basket (expect this more at home than on the road), that is when you can get Isaac his 15-20 minutes (in 2-3 minute stretches).
In reference to your questions:
(1) This results in fewer minutes for Biggie at the 4 spot. Possibly more at the 5 to spell AJ when matchups are not favorable for Isaac.
(2) Yes. More AJ. Get him in involved early and keep him on the floor for as long as he is effective and not in foul trouble.
(3) Yes. But right now the lane is often not open for driving. De-clogging the lane with occasional clear outs and several perimeter threats will open things up for Vince and others to take it to the rack.
 
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Since it looks like this thread is staying out of the weeds.....

Can we have a little discussion about what we would like to see different?

1. Caleb. He is going to be a very good college player. Right now he turns the ball over too much. Do you think his minutes should be cut some, or let him play through it and learn on the fly?

2. AJ minutes. I would like to see him play as many minutes as he possibly can. In the 2nd half last night he was on the bench for extended minutes and I couldn't figure out why? Do you think this was just an oversight by CMP or was there a strategic reason?

3. Vince. He has to become more aggressive and take the ball to the basket. Our offense becomes so stagnated at times and we need someone to create off the dribble. We saw flashes of it against MI with he and Hill. I just want more of it.

Thoughts...??

If this thread goes the way of others in the past 12 hours I will just step aside.

In reference to your third point:

I have been saying all season that the offense, in general, looks awful. There was one possession in the second half where the wing on the left side went to rotate the ball back around and the man on the top passes back to the left wing twice. When a team is playing a zone defense, the way you beat that is with good ball movement and with consistent movement by your off-ball players on the backside. When that doesn't happen, the defense can clog the inside and the bigs can't get the ball in a good place to score. There was one instance where the team moved the ball well around the zone and AJ got an easy bucket inside in the second half. In general, the movement of players WITHOUT the ball in their hands is what is the major problem on offense.
 
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Since it looks like this thread is staying out of the weeds.....

Can we have a little discussion about what we would like to see different?

1. Caleb. He is going to be a very good college player. Right now he turns the ball over too much. Do you think his minutes should be cut some, or let him play through it and learn on the fly?

2. AJ minutes. I would like to see him play as many minutes as he possibly can. In the 2nd half last night he was on the bench for extended minutes and I couldn't figure out why? Do you think this was just an oversight by CMP or was there a strategic reason?

3. Vince. He has to become more aggressive and take the ball to the basket. Our offense becomes so stagnated at times and we need someone to create off the dribble. We saw flashes of it against MI with he and Hill. I just want more of it.

Thoughts...??

If this thread goes the way of others in the past 12 hours I will just step aside.
Swanigan - Is there anything that he is better at or has improved upon at this point from when the season began? Is he better today than he was two months ago in any facet of the game? Maybe the biggest question...is Purdue better collectively as a team with him on the floor or off of the floor?

AJ - Name another team in the conference, or the country for that matter, whose best player was not even starting, never mind plays as few minutes? That is not oversight...it is a conscious decision and one that absolutely begs to be challenged.

Vince - Has struggled mightily going back to the Butler game (but that applies to more than just him certainly)....and has not only not been aggressive at going/getting to the basket, but he has missed so many easy shots on the rare occasion that he is in the lane or at the rim, especially in the past three games.

Davis - Simply a non-factor offensively in conference play other than the Michigan game, which was in response to being all but invisible at that end during the Iowa game...and then disappeared entirely again last night...bottom line, this team will never be as good as it is capable of being until he gets back to being a leader, setting the tone at the defensive end (which has not been the case as well during conference play) and contributes something at the offensive end.
 
Since it looks like this thread is staying out of the weeds.....

Can we have a little discussion about what we would like to see different?

1. Caleb. He is going to be a very good college player. Right now he turns the ball over too much. Do you think his minutes should be cut some, or let him play through it and learn on the fly?

2. AJ minutes. I would like to see him play as many minutes as he possibly can. In the 2nd half last night he was on the bench for extended minutes and I couldn't figure out why? Do you think this was just an oversight by CMP or was there a strategic reason?

3. Vince. He has to become more aggressive and take the ball to the basket. Our offense becomes so stagnated at times and we need someone to create off the dribble. We saw flashes of it against MI with he and Hill. I just want more of it.

Thoughts...??

If this thread goes the way of others in the past 12 hours I will just step aside.


1. Seems like Swanigan is in a middle of a freshman lull. I think Painter is doing the right thing by starting him still and letting him play through it but cutting his overall minutes a bit. He seems to be thinking too much IMO. But for this team to reach its potential, it needs his playmaking ability.

2. I was also unsure as to why Hammons sat so much last night. He didn't have a great game but he was getting triple teamed as soon as the wings started thinking about passing to him. I am not a coach but there has to be a way to expose this type of defense more effectively than the team has shown. Illinois played really aggressive defense that I'm assuming they hadn't been playing in most games (or else its record would be better) but Purdue should be ready for that in all games now.

3. Completely agree. Painter seems to be stuck in a numbers game at the 4. I think it might pay off to have Swanigan at the 5 a little more with Edwards at the 4. This might help when teams are going all out against the 5s. It will reduce Haas' minutes, but right now Hammons and Edwards are better than Haas.

4. I also think Mathias has to play a little more. Good things seem to happen when he's on the court and if he can continue to hit shots he really helps out the offense while not hurting the defense (in most matchups).

5. I think Stephens is showing some signs of development as well with his midrange and driving at least being threats. He had a couple bad minutes last night late but overall I think he's out there when Purdue needs its best lineup. Hammons, Edwards, Stephens, Mathias and Hill.
 
Good points by all. I hope that the team comes out in the next 3 games and dominates and plays well. These next 3 games have to be W's if we have any chance of staying in the hunt. February is absolutely brutal!
 
I know Rafael Davis had the knee injury, but he just doesn't seem right lately. Yesterday - 0 points, 5 fouls. We need him to score and do some zone penetration like last year. Maybe he's just not comfortable enough on the knee yet.
 
Since it looks like this thread is staying out of the weeds.....

Can we have a little discussion about what we would like to see different?
AJH has only played more than 30 minutes once. He put up 24 on Pitt and we won going away...this is all on the coach. I listen to him talk about getting stops, but in the game, he takes out our best defender when we needed stops the most! It doesn't make any sense. Other than that it's easy things like turnovers (lazy passes) and shot selection.
 
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Is it strange to anyone else that we don't see more face up 15 foot jump shots in the offense for AJ? We bury him in the post on every possession and either feed him deep, turn it over trying to do so, or take a bail out 3 after failing to get the ball to him. Seems like an easy way to get AJ more touches is to bring him out away from the basket a little more often. How about a simple pick and pop once in a while? I think he has the touch to easily make ~50% from 15 feet considering his 75% FT shooting.
 
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Is it strange to anyone else that we don't see more face up 15 foot jump shots in the offense for AJ? We bury him in the post on every possession and either feed him deep, turn it over trying to do so, or take a bail out 3 after failing to get the ball to him. Seems like an easy way to get AJ more touches is to bring him out away from the basket a little more often. How about a simple pick and pop once in a while? I think he has the touch to easily make ~50% from 15 feet considering his 75% FT shooting.
Anything that gets AJ more touches is a good thing IMHO.
 
Since it looks like this thread is staying out of the weeds.....

Can we have a little discussion about what we would like to see different?

1. Caleb. He is going to be a very good college player. Right now he turns the ball over too much. Do you think his minutes should be cut some, or let him play through it and learn on the fly?

2. AJ minutes. I would like to see him play as many minutes as he possibly can. In the 2nd half last night he was on the bench for extended minutes and I couldn't figure out why? Do you think this was just an oversight by CMP or was there a strategic reason?

3. Vince. He has to become more aggressive and take the ball to the basket. Our offense becomes so stagnated at times and we need someone to create off the dribble. We saw flashes of it against MI with he and Hill. I just want more of it.

Thoughts...??

If this thread goes the way of others in the past 12 hours I will just step aside.

I’m not sure I have seen anything new or not suspected as a potential problem for Purdue before the first game was played this year. That is not to suggest that there is not cause for concern, but merely to express that the Achilles remains with Purdue more than we wish.

Playing in front and bringing the weak side help on the posts are not new. Purdue has already beaten teams that did that…and lost to teams that did that as well. A good post player will see that in high school. That double will leave opposite areas open in high school and college…just that college players are more athletic making it harder to execute due to physical capabilities rather than some mental thing…unless not in to the game mentally. Having big men that are capable shooters and trying to make slower post players defend in space is not new. Like the help side D, teams have also used this against Purdue this year and Purdue has beaten them…and lost to them as well.

Pressing Purdue and I’m distinguishing between half court traps and presses which I consider to start on the other side of the 10 second line in generally full and ¾ court coverage have been used against Purdue. Sporadic presses in man have not really caused Purdue problems, whereas zone presses have, in the obvious nature when Purdue is turning the ball over and in the more obscure nature of eating clock and making it harder to get the ball inside to the posts in a timely fashion.

Terone Johnson could get inside the lane and THAT was his game. Only Vince and to a lesser degree Davis and Dakota can do that with a semblance of quickness…biggie is pretty slow. Remember he could still be in high school and so he physically has a way to go. Hill pretty much gets to the rim. So Purdue has post players and stationary shooters and limited in-between games in the half court. I think many of us thought Purdue would be better in this area…possibly a lot based upon Vince’s improved athleticism?

So, I don’t really think there are coaching gems that beat Purdue. I think the way to beat Purdue is obvious, but having the right kind of personnel playing well in a game that bodes well for the ref’s interpretation in that game makes Purdue vulnerable more often than we wish to believe. This is not to suggest that the refs cost Purdue the Illinois game as they didn’t…same with Butler and Iowa games. However, in every game…the ones Purdue won as well, some team will benefit more than the other team, particularly if the styles are much different based upon the ref’s interpretation of the game. Players have off nights and refs can too…even though that is part of the game win or lose…

Purdue is big…and slow. Purdue is skillful and non-athletic. Purdue is finesses, not power. Purdue on the whole is better than the parts due to choice (team play) and consequently inadequate when the “team play” is having difficulty due to player limitations making the team effective. Purdue has great depth, Purdue has less player chemistry due to the depth. Purdue is better than most teams if having a decent game and vulnerable to lesser teams that have the right match-up by teams playing well in the conditions deemed acceptable by the refs. Not having those three things Purdue probably wins…having those three things and Purdue probably loses…even to teams who may have inferior play to date.

Make no mistake the game has been changed by rules and emphasis of the rules to decrease the advantage of bigger teams by having a shot clock and now a shorter shot clock, a three point shot, an arc and an arc extended out another foot in the last couple of years to enhance the offense and not the defense. If the NCAA wants more parity and excitement in the games, the normal curve of the population will have many more 6’5” players than 7 footers…creating a condition that more effective players are spread out over more teams. If Purdue was playing with the same team 15-20 years ago this team would be great. Today, some of those advantages at times become a liability. My natural preference is to have two 6’9” athletic bigs as opposed to slower 7 footers due to being able to do more with them…particularly in today’s game. I stated that many times in the past. However, I thought Matt landing Haas may make Purdue a place for solid 5’s that needed some work to seriously look at Purdue wherever they may be since they may not fit in at other schools as well. I considered the “contrarian view” of worth and still do. Today however, it does limit what can be done on offense and defense as far as versatility while providing some serious non versatile strengths if executed and doesn’t eliminate the need for complimentary skill sets.

Much of the time in the Iowa game when pressure was applied…even if soft, by the time Purdue got the ball across the 10 second line “and in any position to start the execution” there was only about 19-20 seconds on the clock remaining. Purdue will not wait until the final second to shoot for fear that the shot now is better than in the final seconds and so there realistically is 10 to 12 seconds to get a good shot. If the team is looking inside first and that look is not there Purdue typically reverses the ball and brings the posts to the ball side and now if denied…the clock is really short. As discussed prior to the season…token pressure that eats clock can be a problem for Purdue and this was pretty well discussed prior to the season. In the Illinois game there was an additional 2-4 seconds most of the time over the Iowa pressure to work with. Same things though…deny for a while and the clock will play D for you. Illinois shot very well…shots they may miss the next game and obviously Illinois was able to score with some bigs away from the rim as well as some athletes getting to the rim. Illinois was backed into a corner and played with a sense of urgency. I suspect that many of us probably took for granted that the Illinois game would be easy…and it is quite possible that the much younger players than us thought the same?

Zone presses today are many times coached as a match-up coverage (zone alignment, but man double teaming inside that coverage0. Again, nothing new here, just better athletes that cover more space in less time. Like all match-up coverages the areas of the court will be defended by specific skill sets. Since most players are right handed the defense typically places the better trappers on that side and those that steal passes opposite in many cases…again the function of skill sets for court area. A left handed player like Ronnie Johnson not only has an advantage of being so quick, but left handed as well. It appeared to me in the past that Matt has recruited lefties if all else were equal and it does offer some advantages.

Hindsight may suggest that Basil’s athleticism may have been needed more than Cline’s shooting this year? Course Basil may be very valuable next year with AJ gone? I think it is fair to critique the coaches on specific things, but it may be over the edge to suggest they don’t know how to address certain things. It is fair to suggest they don’t know how to address these deficiencies with the current personnel. It may be that it is a weaknesses of who they have for that match up and refs for that game. It is fair to critique them on recruiting, but seriously that is not all on the coach either.

I don’t see Purdue all of a sudden finding that person that is effective on creating shots for himself…particularly without needing someone to get him the ball…advantage to schools with athletes that can score at the 1, 2 or 3 spots on their own. Vince is on the cusp of doing that. I do hope Purdue gets a few more players effective at 10 foot…players that can pull up if necessary and score…and more awareness to force the fouls when driving (although there were a couple of flaky charging calls in the Illinois game) Even little PJ recognized the need for that in the Illinois game…Vince too when not in foul trouble. Second I would like to see Purdue when facing a press play with a little quicker tempo prior to the trap (different things for odd fronts versus even front presses as far as alignments) and if reasonable odds, get to the rim. Third, I wish Purdue would more often play with an unbalanced court, with a clear out allowing the slower Purdue players that may be able to get a shoulder or foot past a defender to not have so much help D due to the Purdue’s lack of foot speed. Purdue has enough spot shooters to spread the floor to aid this. Fourth, I would like Purdue to feed the post more than they do by a player dribbling into the right angle. Right now Purdue feeds off of a player receiving a pass and then looking inside. The D shifts with that pass. I would like to see the bigs pin and hold that pin and a player dribble to that held position allowing the bigs to hold position rather than move to it and also allow the refs a longer look at the play inside instead of so many moving pieces….just to add to how to feed the post when teams are over playing the passing with quickness. Lastly, well quickly off the top of my head I wish Purdue had a good zone to use. I know that left a bad taste in Matt’s mouth last year. I know the man D is a superior D for most occasions, but there are times when a zone is needed. Purdue’s poor zone last year was more poor execution than just a bad thought. With all the potential problems of a zone it allows you to place your defenders on more specific areas of the court to help defend the offense with the skill sets on D for that area of the court. By nature it can cut down the distance needed to cover, require teams to become more organized and reduce the quickness differential between players on both teams. There are problems with a zone, but I’m not sure it couldn’t have worked with this team…and I’m a man person…


Tom
176 Months


Purdue
 
I’m not sure I have seen anything new or not suspected as a potential problem for Purdue before the first game was played this year. That is not to suggest that there is not cause for concern, but merely to express that the Achilles remains with Purdue more than we wish.

Playing in front and bringing the weak side help on the posts are not new. Purdue has already beaten teams that did that…and lost to teams that did that as well. A good post player will see that in high school. That double will leave opposite areas open in high school and college…just that college players are more athletic making it harder to execute due to physical capabilities rather than some mental thing…unless not in to the game mentally. Having big men that are capable shooters and trying to make slower post players defend in space is not new. Like the help side D, teams have also used this against Purdue this year and Purdue has beaten them…and lost to them as well.

Pressing Purdue and I’m distinguishing between half court traps and presses which I consider to start on the other side of the 10 second line in generally full and ¾ court coverage have been used against Purdue. Sporadic presses in man have not really caused Purdue problems, whereas zone presses have, in the obvious nature when Purdue is turning the ball over and in the more obscure nature of eating clock and making it harder to get the ball inside to the posts in a timely fashion.

Terone Johnson could get inside the lane and THAT was his game. Only Vince and to a lesser degree Davis and Dakota can do that with a semblance of quickness…biggie is pretty slow. Remember he could still be in high school and so he physically has a way to go. Hill pretty much gets to the rim. So Purdue has post players and stationary shooters and limited in-between games in the half court. I think many of us thought Purdue would be better in this area…possibly a lot based upon Vince’s improved athleticism?

So, I don’t really think there are coaching gems that beat Purdue. I think the way to beat Purdue is obvious, but having the right kind of personnel playing well in a game that bodes well for the ref’s interpretation in that game makes Purdue vulnerable more often than we wish to believe. This is not to suggest that the refs cost Purdue the Illinois game as they didn’t…same with Butler and Iowa games. However, in every game…the ones Purdue won as well, some team will benefit more than the other team, particularly if the styles are much different based upon the ref’s interpretation of the game. Players have off nights and refs can too…even though that is part of the game win or lose…

Purdue is big…and slow. Purdue is skillful and non-athletic. Purdue is finesses, not power. Purdue on the whole is better than the parts due to choice (team play) and consequently inadequate when the “team play” is having difficulty due to player limitations making the team effective. Purdue has great depth, Purdue has less player chemistry due to the depth. Purdue is better than most teams if having a decent game and vulnerable to lesser teams that have the right match-up by teams playing well in the conditions deemed acceptable by the refs. Not having those three things Purdue probably wins…having those three things and Purdue probably loses…even to teams who may have inferior play to date.

Make no mistake the game has been changed by rules and emphasis of the rules to decrease the advantage of bigger teams by having a shot clock and now a shorter shot clock, a three point shot, an arc and an arc extended out another foot in the last couple of years to enhance the offense and not the defense. If the NCAA wants more parity and excitement in the games, the normal curve of the population will have many more 6’5” players than 7 footers…creating a condition that more effective players are spread out over more teams. If Purdue was playing with the same team 15-20 years ago this team would be great. Today, some of those advantages at times become a liability. My natural preference is to have two 6’9” athletic bigs as opposed to slower 7 footers due to being able to do more with them…particularly in today’s game. I stated that many times in the past. However, I thought Matt landing Haas may make Purdue a place for solid 5’s that needed some work to seriously look at Purdue wherever they may be since they may not fit in at other schools as well. I considered the “contrarian view” of worth and still do. Today however, it does limit what can be done on offense and defense as far as versatility while providing some serious non versatile strengths if executed and doesn’t eliminate the need for complimentary skill sets.

Much of the time in the Iowa game when pressure was applied…even if soft, by the time Purdue got the ball across the 10 second line “and in any position to start the execution” there was only about 19-20 seconds on the clock remaining. Purdue will not wait until the final second to shoot for fear that the shot now is better than in the final seconds and so there realistically is 10 to 12 seconds to get a good shot. If the team is looking inside first and that look is not there Purdue typically reverses the ball and brings the posts to the ball side and now if denied…the clock is really short. As discussed prior to the season…token pressure that eats clock can be a problem for Purdue and this was pretty well discussed prior to the season. In the Illinois game there was an additional 2-4 seconds most of the time over the Iowa pressure to work with. Same things though…deny for a while and the clock will play D for you. Illinois shot very well…shots they may miss the next game and obviously Illinois was able to score with some bigs away from the rim as well as some athletes getting to the rim. Illinois was backed into a corner and played with a sense of urgency. I suspect that many of us probably took for granted that the Illinois game would be easy…and it is quite possible that the much younger players than us thought the same?

Zone presses today are many times coached as a match-up coverage (zone alignment, but man double teaming inside that coverage0. Again, nothing new here, just better athletes that cover more space in less time. Like all match-up coverages the areas of the court will be defended by specific skill sets. Since most players are right handed the defense typically places the better trappers on that side and those that steal passes opposite in many cases…again the function of skill sets for court area. A left handed player like Ronnie Johnson not only has an advantage of being so quick, but left handed as well. It appeared to me in the past that Matt has recruited lefties if all else were equal and it does offer some advantages.

Hindsight may suggest that Basil’s athleticism may have been needed more than Cline’s shooting this year? Course Basil may be very valuable next year with AJ gone? I think it is fair to critique the coaches on specific things, but it may be over the edge to suggest they don’t know how to address certain things. It is fair to suggest they don’t know how to address these deficiencies with the current personnel. It may be that it is a weaknesses of who they have for that match up and refs for that game. It is fair to critique them on recruiting, but seriously that is not all on the coach either.

I don’t see Purdue all of a sudden finding that person that is effective on creating shots for himself…particularly without needing someone to get him the ball…advantage to schools with athletes that can score at the 1, 2 or 3 spots on their own. Vince is on the cusp of doing that. I do hope Purdue gets a few more players effective at 10 foot…players that can pull up if necessary and score…and more awareness to force the fouls when driving (although there were a couple of flaky charging calls in the Illinois game) Even little PJ recognized the need for that in the Illinois game…Vince too when not in foul trouble. Second I would like to see Purdue when facing a press play with a little quicker tempo prior to the trap (different things for odd fronts versus even front presses as far as alignments) and if reasonable odds, get to the rim. Third, I wish Purdue would more often play with an unbalanced court, with a clear out allowing the slower Purdue players that may be able to get a shoulder or foot past a defender to not have so much help D due to the Purdue’s lack of foot speed. Purdue has enough spot shooters to spread the floor to aid this. Fourth, I would like Purdue to feed the post more than they do by a player dribbling into the right angle. Right now Purdue feeds off of a player receiving a pass and then looking inside. The D shifts with that pass. I would like to see the bigs pin and hold that pin and a player dribble to that held position allowing the bigs to hold position rather than move to it and also allow the refs a longer look at the play inside instead of so many moving pieces….just to add to how to feed the post when teams are over playing the passing with quickness. Lastly, well quickly off the top of my head I wish Purdue had a good zone to use. I know that left a bad taste in Matt’s mouth last year. I know the man D is a superior D for most occasions, but there are times when a zone is needed. Purdue’s poor zone last year was more poor execution than just a bad thought. With all the potential problems of a zone it allows you to place your defenders on more specific areas of the court to help defend the offense with the skill sets on D for that area of the court. By nature it can cut down the distance needed to cover, require teams to become more organized and reduce the quickness differential between players on both teams. There are problems with a zone, but I’m not sure it couldn’t have worked with this team…and I’m a man person…


Tom
176 Months


Purdue
 
I’m not sure I have seen anything new or not suspected as a potential problem for Purdue before the first game was played this year. That is not to suggest that there is not cause for concern, but merely to express that the Achilles remains with Purdue more than we wish.

Playing in front and bringing the weak side help on the posts are not new. Purdue has already beaten teams that did that…and lost to teams that did that as well. A good post player will see that in high school. That double will leave opposite areas open in high school and college…just that college players are more athletic making it harder to execute due to physical capabilities rather than some mental thing…unless not in to the game mentally. Having big men that are capable shooters and trying to make slower post players defend in space is not new. Like the help side D, teams have also used this against Purdue this year and Purdue has beaten them…and lost to them as well.

Pressing Purdue and I’m distinguishing between half court traps and presses which I consider to start on the other side of the 10 second line in generally full and ¾ court coverage have been used against Purdue. Sporadic presses in man have not really caused Purdue problems, whereas zone presses have, in the obvious nature when Purdue is turning the ball over and in the more obscure nature of eating clock and making it harder to get the ball inside to the posts in a timely fashion.

Terone Johnson could get inside the lane and THAT was his game. Only Vince and to a lesser degree Davis and Dakota can do that with a semblance of quickness…biggie is pretty slow. Remember he could still be in high school and so he physically has a way to go. Hill pretty much gets to the rim. So Purdue has post players and stationary shooters and limited in-between games in the half court. I think many of us thought Purdue would be better in this area…possibly a lot based upon Vince’s improved athleticism?

So, I don’t really think there are coaching gems that beat Purdue. I think the way to beat Purdue is obvious, but having the right kind of personnel playing well in a game that bodes well for the ref’s interpretation in that game makes Purdue vulnerable more often than we wish to believe. This is not to suggest that the refs cost Purdue the Illinois game as they didn’t…same with Butler and Iowa games. However, in every game…the ones Purdue won as well, some team will benefit more than the other team, particularly if the styles are much different based upon the ref’s interpretation of the game. Players have off nights and refs can too…even though that is part of the game win or lose…

Purdue is big…and slow. Purdue is skillful and non-athletic. Purdue is finesses, not power. Purdue on the whole is better than the parts due to choice (team play) and consequently inadequate when the “team play” is having difficulty due to player limitations making the team effective. Purdue has great depth, Purdue has less player chemistry due to the depth. Purdue is better than most teams if having a decent game and vulnerable to lesser teams that have the right match-up by teams playing well in the conditions deemed acceptable by the refs. Not having those three things Purdue probably wins…having those three things and Purdue probably loses…even to teams who may have inferior play to date.

Make no mistake the game has been changed by rules and emphasis of the rules to decrease the advantage of bigger teams by having a shot clock and now a shorter shot clock, a three point shot, an arc and an arc extended out another foot in the last couple of years to enhance the offense and not the defense. If the NCAA wants more parity and excitement in the games, the normal curve of the population will have many more 6’5” players than 7 footers…creating a condition that more effective players are spread out over more teams. If Purdue was playing with the same team 15-20 years ago this team would be great. Today, some of those advantages at times become a liability. My natural preference is to have two 6’9” athletic bigs as opposed to slower 7 footers due to being able to do more with them…particularly in today’s game. I stated that many times in the past. However, I thought Matt landing Haas may make Purdue a place for solid 5’s that needed some work to seriously look at Purdue wherever they may be since they may not fit in at other schools as well. I considered the “contrarian view” of worth and still do. Today however, it does limit what can be done on offense and defense as far as versatility while providing some serious non versatile strengths if executed and doesn’t eliminate the need for complimentary skill sets.

Much of the time in the Iowa game when pressure was applied…even if soft, by the time Purdue got the ball across the 10 second line “and in any position to start the execution” there was only about 19-20 seconds on the clock remaining. Purdue will not wait until the final second to shoot for fear that the shot now is better than in the final seconds and so there realistically is 10 to 12 seconds to get a good shot. If the team is looking inside first and that look is not there Purdue typically reverses the ball and brings the posts to the ball side and now if denied…the clock is really short. As discussed prior to the season…token pressure that eats clock can be a problem for Purdue and this was pretty well discussed prior to the season. In the Illinois game there was an additional 2-4 seconds most of the time over the Iowa pressure to work with. Same things though…deny for a while and the clock will play D for you. Illinois shot very well…shots they may miss the next game and obviously Illinois was able to score with some bigs away from the rim as well as some athletes getting to the rim. Illinois was backed into a corner and played with a sense of urgency. I suspect that many of us probably took for granted that the Illinois game would be easy…and it is quite possible that the much younger players than us thought the same?

Zone presses today are many times coached as a match-up coverage (zone alignment, but man double teaming inside that coverage0. Again, nothing new here, just better athletes that cover more space in less time. Like all match-up coverages the areas of the court will be defended by specific skill sets. Since most players are right handed the defense typically places the better trappers on that side and those that steal passes opposite in many cases…again the function of skill sets for court area. A left handed player like Ronnie Johnson not only has an advantage of being so quick, but left handed as well. It appeared to me in the past that Matt has recruited lefties if all else were equal and it does offer some advantages.

Hindsight may suggest that Basil’s athleticism may have been needed more than Cline’s shooting this year? Course Basil may be very valuable next year with AJ gone? I think it is fair to critique the coaches on specific things, but it may be over the edge to suggest they don’t know how to address certain things. It is fair to suggest they don’t know how to address these deficiencies with the current personnel. It may be that it is a weaknesses of who they have for that match up and refs for that game. It is fair to critique them on recruiting, but seriously that is not all on the coach either.

I don’t see Purdue all of a sudden finding that person that is effective on creating shots for himself…particularly without needing someone to get him the ball…advantage to schools with athletes that can score at the 1, 2 or 3 spots on their own. Vince is on the cusp of doing that. I do hope Purdue gets a few more players effective at 10 foot…players that can pull up if necessary and score…and more awareness to force the fouls when driving (although there were a couple of flaky charging calls in the Illinois game) Even little PJ recognized the need for that in the Illinois game…Vince too when not in foul trouble. Second I would like to see Purdue when facing a press play with a little quicker tempo prior to the trap (different things for odd fronts versus even front presses as far as alignments) and if reasonable odds, get to the rim. Third, I wish Purdue would more often play with an unbalanced court, with a clear out allowing the slower Purdue players that may be able to get a shoulder or foot past a defender to not have so much help D due to the Purdue’s lack of foot speed. Purdue has enough spot shooters to spread the floor to aid this. Fourth, I would like Purdue to feed the post more than they do by a player dribbling into the right angle. Right now Purdue feeds off of a player receiving a pass and then looking inside. The D shifts with that pass. I would like to see the bigs pin and hold that pin and a player dribble to that held position allowing the bigs to hold position rather than move to it and also allow the refs a longer look at the play inside instead of so many moving pieces….just to add to how to feed the post when teams are over playing the passing with quickness. Lastly, well quickly off the top of my head I wish Purdue had a good zone to use. I know that left a bad taste in Matt’s mouth last year. I know the man D is a superior D for most occasions, but there are times when a zone is needed. Purdue’s poor zone last year was more poor execution than just a bad thought. With all the potential problems of a zone it allows you to place your defenders on more specific areas of the court to help defend the offense with the skill sets on D for that area of the court. By nature it can cut down the distance needed to cover, require teams to become more organized and reduce the quickness differential between players on both teams. There are problems with a zone, but I’m not sure it couldn’t have worked with this team…and I’m a man person…


Tom
176 Months


Purdue

I must admit I sometimes don't have the energy or time to read your long posts, but I was able to spend the time this morning, and I think this one has great insights. Do you think Coach Painter sees these same things and is struggling to find a way to adjust? Or do you think he doesn't see some of it, based on his behavior?
 
I must admit I sometimes don't have the energy or time to read your long posts, but I was able to spend the time this morning, and I think this one has great insights. Do you think Coach Painter sees these same things and is struggling to find a way to adjust? Or do you think he doesn't see some of it, based on his behavior?
I bumped his post because it is hands Don the best post on the state of things now. I've avoided the forum for a bit because some people either think they have all the answers and don't, or are just too emotionally wound up.
Based off of the turnaround last season I'm letting things play out this season before I worry too much about things. That said his post should be stickied.
And I read on the twitter feed where Painter said he made a mistake on guarding Nunn IIRC.. so that tells me he sees things he needs to fix on himself.
 
I must admit I sometimes don't have the energy or time to read your long posts, but I was able to spend the time this morning, and I think this one has great insights. Do you think Coach Painter sees these same things and is struggling to find a way to adjust? Or do you think he doesn't see some of it, based on his behavior?
No problem. My posts many times are not a quick read because I typically have a view that may have been generated by many mixed signals. I think without a doubt Matt knew how teams would play Purdue before the first game. I know how I would and expect other coaches would as well. Basketball is not a secret, but sometimes the best laid plans don't work out, Purdue has what it has...strengths and weaknesses relative to the physical aspects. Mentally, these kids appear to be a team in that they want "Purdue" to do well, but sometimes trying to do the right things still doesn't work out. Purdue was in a huge hole with recruiting and such. I personally believe Matt was going to leave even though he didn't want to because he had so many obstacles in his way. Those have been removed, but a culture was lost that had to be found and Purdue played without the talent others had...and still does even though we are happy with the talent Purdue has.

I went to see Tipton play FW Bishop when Elston (IU)was a senior along with Thomas (OSU) and sat on the baseline talking to Dakich and Meyer (now asst. at Michigan) about Dakich's team mate in high school (Bullock Purdue) and if they had seen Bryd play. They thought DJ was too slow. He played for Purdue and was a good contributor, but maybe not the potential to build a team around. Purdue has been short on talent since the baby boilers, but has done better recently. I have a lot of respect for all the basketball players and what they go through and I don't was to imply that DJ was not worthy. I merely try to suggest that we had a team of DJ's and other teams had players with more individual abilities. I was very pleased to see Matt considering a zone last year, but very disappointed in how it was played...particularly defending out of bounds under the basket which cost the North Florida game. I understand in theory what he was trying to do, but it didn't work. I have no feel for whether Matt will try a zone down the road, but wish it were available for limited use. Matt typically has a balanced court and so I don't see him clearing out much for a drive, but he may. I do think feeding the post off of the dribble may be an alternative that could get used in addition to passing. Many times you want a power triangle for post feeds that way the person defending the post can only cover one side...and if the pass is not there...dribble into that post feed and loop the other endpoint of the triangle out of the way. I think Purdue can get quicker in getting the ball across and start executing. Purdue wants to be quick, but not hurry to quote John Wooden. I think there are ways Purdue can attack a zone press, but all presses are a "little" different and usually lose some affect as the season goes on. sorry for the length...but sometimes it is hard to say the bare minimum in a few words. :)
 
I agree with TopSecret, I'm more disappointed about IA and IL then I am Butler. Those are 2 losses that I'm pretty sure we had all "penciled" in as wins as you went down through the schedule before conference season started. Now that means we have to come up with one or two that we weren't thinking we would get. @ Maryland, @IU @ Iowa, or MSU at home. Where do those 2 games come from??

I'm trying to stay away from the threads that are just shredding the team and trying to stay constructive and focus on what we can do to stay in the race for a B10 title. I agree with you Punaj, we have seen all of the guys play well at times. We need to put that together at the same time.
I am not sure how anyone could have penciled Iowa as a win! They are very good.
 
I am not sure how anyone could have penciled Iowa as a win! They are very good.
Not sure if that was TIC or not??

If you didn't have Iowa at Mackey as a "penciled" in win, then how many wins did you have PU getting in conference?
 
Apparently not. Just an objective viewpoint.
You know, I think we just need more metal workers:

vSGxsPu.gif
 
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