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Big Ten Player of the Year- 2 Man Race

IMSKRONG said:
Why would games against Elon and Florida A&M matter for B1G POY? B1G stats matter only.
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You keep copying and pasting the same line but is that the actual criteria? I’ve never seen you reference anything that indicates that’s actually the case.
 
Games like Gonzaga, Marquette, Duke and West Virginia mean more than Davidson and Florida A&M, although all were wins. Conversely, losses to Arizona and Kansas are recognized for what they are - a loss on the big stage. A win at Xavier is more valued than an Elon win. Purdue has had a better season, a better Big Ten campaign to date and Edey is recognized as odds on National Player.

Player of the Year is Player of the Year. It is not Player of the Conference Season. Your declaration of "B1G stats matter only." is not recognized as true despite your personal declaration of fact.
 
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arcb102000 said:
Games like Gonzaga, Marquette, Duke and West Virginia mean more than Davidson and Florida A&M, although all were wins. Conversely, losses to Arizona and Kansas are recognized for what they are - a loss on the big stage. A win at Xavier is more valued than an Elon win. Purdue has had a better season, a better Big Ten campaign to date and Edey is recognized as odds on National Player.

Player of the Year is Player of the Year. It is not Player of the Conference Season. Your declaration of "B1G stats matter only." is not recognized as true despite your personal declaration of fact.
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And none of those games matter for B1G POY. Big Ten being the key there.
 
arcb102000 said:
Games like Gonzaga, Marquette, Duke and West Virginia mean more than Davidson and Florida A&M, although all were wins. Conversely, losses to Arizona and Kansas are recognized for what they are - a loss on the big stage. A win at Xavier is more valued than an Elon win. Purdue has had a better season, a better Big Ten campaign to date and Edey is recognized as odds on National Player.

Player of the Year is Player of the Year. It is not Player of the Conference Season. Your declaration of "B1G stats matter only." is not recognized as true despite your personal declaration of fact.
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Big Ten POY is literally the definition of conference player of the year.
 
Well, after PSU's Pickett's performance tonight, I place him as odds-on favorite for the next PoW award. Since there were only 3 weeks left in the season, you have likely taken one off the table. That means TJD would have to sweep to tie Edey. Possible but not likely; I'd be very, very surprised at this point.
 
IMSKRONG said:
Big Ten POY is literally the definition of conference player of the year.
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It is the member of a conference team that has been viewed as having the most outstanding year, i.e. season. Otherwise, it would be the member with the most outstanding in-conference season. The lack of qualifier is all that needs to be said.
 
arcb102000 said:
It is the member of a conference team that has been viewed as having the most outstanding year, i.e. season. Otherwise, it would be the member with the most outstanding in-conference season. The lack of qualifier is all that needs to be said.
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The qualifier is literally in the title of the award.
 
IMSKRONG said:
The qualifier is literally in the title of the award.
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It seems that you are literally making this up. If I'm wrong please correct me and I'll admit it, but I've never seen anything that says that CPOY is based only on in conference stats and performance.
 
So I tried to find odds for conference POY but I could not.

I did find odds for national POY and Edey is a runaway favorite. He’d have to play like in Charles Barkley in Space Jam when the Monstars stole his talent to lose POY.

The player from IU is third so at least he will be used to it when they come in third in conference too. Well tied for third.

Anyway, he has long odds so maybe worth a bet if you think it’s close?

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HoosierfanJM said:
But to those arguments there are valid counterpoints:

1) Edey is frequently triple teamed he should have a ton of assists.
  • If he's "frequently triple teamed" that means two opposing defenders are guarding four Purdue players, and he should have fewer points and an unbelievable assist to turnover ratio. Instead, he has a low number of assists and a lousy assist to turnover ratio.
2) A vast majority of fouls against Edey aren't called?
  • Currently Purdue has the #1 Overall free throw advantage for the conference at +7.1. The closest is Iowa at +4.1. IU is at -1.8.
  • Purdue is second in free throws attempted, behind only Iowa, at 516. IU has 444, 72 less. Purdue shoots about 5.5 more free throws more than IU per conference game.
  • Finally, this narrative that Edey doesn't get calls is largely in the minds of Purdue fans, and maybe Stephen Bardo. EVERY fan base thinks their star should be getting more calls. Not something that bothers me to hear, but it's just as laughable as when IU fans gripe about Edey 'constantly pushing and elbowing'; "Why does Edey get all the breaks just because he's big?" (that's not true either)
3) Pre-season frontrunner? Yes, at the date the conference schedule started - TJD was injured and didn't play at the end of the non-con season. And yes, Edey has more than lived up to billing once conference play started. But pre-season? Trayce was B1G pre-season player of the year.

So, this isn't a downplaying of Edey as CPOY - he's worthy. But so is TJD.
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One difference is with Edey a team has to change the offensive game plan because they can’t count on the inside being available all the time with Davis teams are aware of him but they still take it to the rim
 
northside100 said:
It seems that you are literally making this up. If I'm wrong please correct me and I'll admit it, but I've never seen anything that says that CPOY is based only on in conference stats and performance.
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It's more just common sense. Why in the hell would a conference play award be impacted from out of conference games?
 
IMSKRONG said:
It's more just common sense. Why in the hell would a conference play award be impacted from out of conference games?
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Because performance in non-conference play has an enormous impact on how the conference is perceived, the media attention it receives and on the number of seeds and seeding in the NCAAT. How Big Ten teams (and players) perform against Duke, Gonzaga, UNC, Kansas, Arizona, Marquette, Xavier, etc. has a greater impact on those things for the conference as a whole than interconference play does.

I'm not saying non-conference play is more important than Big Ten play in determining the award, but how a player (and his team) represent the conference in non-conference play is certainly a factor in determining the 'Big Ten Conference's most outstanding player'.
 
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northside100 said:
Because performance in non-conference play has an enormous impact on how the conference is perceived, the media attention it receives and on the number of seeds and seeding in the NCAAT. How Big Ten teams (and players) perform against Duke, Gonzaga, UNC, Kansas, Arizona, Marquette, Xavier, etc. has a greater impact on those things for the conference as a whole than interconference play does.

I'm not saying non-conference play is more important than Big Ten play in determining the award, but how a player (and his team) represent the conference in non-conference play is certainly a factor in determining the 'Big Ten Conference's most outstanding player'.
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Non conference games have literally zero impact on the perception of how a player performs in conference games. If player A averages 40, 10, 10 a game in non conference games but only 15, 5, 5 in conference games, then player B averages 20, 10, 5 in both, who you think is winning CPOY? Do those non conference games mean anything? Nope. Maybe for NPOY since you're playing "against national competition." B1G POY is literally just that. B1G player of the year. Everything you need to know is in the name. Big Ten. It is a conference only award. Just like All Conference teams take only conference games in to count. Same for B1G Freshman of the Year.
 
northside100 said:
Because performance in non-conference play has an enormous impact on how the conference is perceived, the media attention it receives and on the number of seeds and seeding in the NCAAT. How Big Ten teams (and players) perform against Duke, Gonzaga, UNC, Kansas, Arizona, Marquette, Xavier, etc. has a greater impact on those things for the conference as a whole than interconference play does.

I'm not saying non-conference play is more important than Big Ten play in determining the award, but how a player (and his team) represent the conference in non-conference play is certainly a factor in determining the 'Big Ten Conference's most outstanding player'.
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In fact, it's been proven you don't even need to play a non conference game to win Big Ten POY.
 
IMSKRONG said:
In fact, it's been proven you don't even need to play a non conference game to win Big Ten POY.
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The part you aren’t understanding is that to win BPOY, one need only be a member of the B1G. It doesn’t mean conference games only. It’s merely a distinction that a player must be a part of the conference. The entire year is considered for the award whether you understand it or not.
 
proudopete said:
The part you aren’t understanding is that to win BPOY, one need only be a member of the B1G. It doesn’t mean conference games only. It’s merely a distinction that a player must be a part of the conference. The entire year is considered for the award whether you understand it or not.
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Yea you have to be in the Big Ten... And perform great in Big Ten play. Your game against Duke has no impact.
 
IMSKRONG said:
Non conference games have literally zero impact on the perception of how a player performs in conference games. If player A averages 40, 10, 10 a game in non conference games but only 15, 5, 5 in conference games, then player B averages 20, 10, 5 in both, who you think is winning CPOY? Do those non conference games mean anything? Nope. Maybe for NPOY since you're playing "against national competition." B1G POY is literally just that. B1G player of the year. Everything you need to know is in the name. Big Ten. It is a conference only award. Just like All Conference teams take only conference games in to count. Same for B1G Freshman of the Year.
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I recognize your right to hold your opinion, I'm not going to change it and have no desire to do so. I do recognize that your view is only supported by your opinion and what you deem to be 'common sense', there is no external support to back it up and your arguments above simply attempt to shift the conversation.

The Big Ten defines the award as the conference's 'most outstanding player' and makes no reference to 'in conference play'. I put weight in that, but you certainly don't have to.
 
IMSKRONG said:
Yea you have to be in the Big Ten... And perform great in Big Ten play. Your game against Duke has no impact.
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Apparently, you seem to think that one can be the Most Outstanding Player in the Nation but not the Most Outstanding Player in Your Conference.

If one simply thinks about it in math terms, that makes no sense. The conference is a subset of the nation. If you are best in the nation, you would have to be the best in your conference because you are the best in the larger set that includes your conference. This position of yours' is simply illogical.
 
I went back to Big Dog and found the National Player of the Year awards and checked to see if that player also won his conference POY. Here are the years when they overlap. You can see NPOY almost always results in CPOY awards.

1993–94 Glenn Robinson (Big Ten POY)
1994–95 Joe Smith (ACC POY)
1995–96 Marcus Camby (A10 POY)
1996–97 Tim Duncan (ACC POY)
1997–98 Antawn Jamison (ACC POY)
1998–99 Elton Brand (ACC POY)
1999–00 Kenyon Martin (Conference USA POY)
2000–01 Shane Battier (ACC POY)
2001–02 Jason Williams
2003–04 Jameer Nelson (A10 POY)
2005–06 JJ Redick (ACC POY)
2006–07 Kevin Durant (Big 12 POY)
2007–08 Tyler Hansbrough
2008–09 Blake Griffin (Big 12 POY)
2009–10 Evan Turner (Big Ten POY)
2011–12 Anthony Davis (SEC POY)
2012–13 Trey Burke (Big Ten POY)
2013–14 Doug McDermott (Big East POY)
2014–15 Frank Kaminsky (Big Ten POY)
2015–16 Buddy Hield (Big 12 POY)
2016–17 Frank Mason III (Big 12 POY)
2017–18 Jalen Brunson (Big East POY)
2018–19 Zion Williamson (ACC POY)
2020–21 Luka Garza (Big Ten POY)
2021–22 Oscar Tshiebwe (ACC POY)
 
arcb102000 said:
Apparently, you seem to think that one can be the Most Outstanding Player in the Nation but not the Most Outstanding Player in Your Conference.

If one simply thinks about it in math terms, that makes no sense. The conference is a subset of the nation. If you are best in the nation, you would have to be the best in your conference because you are the best in the larger set that includes your conference. This position of yours' is simply illogical.
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It's the most likely. And I've stated what would need to happen for Edey not win B1G POY. Right now, there is a better shot at a share but it depends on the media.
 
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Abugabby said:
I went back to Big Dog and found the National Player of the Year awards and checked to see if that player also won his conference POY. Here are the years when they overlap. You can see NPOY almost always results in CPOY awards.

1993–94 Glenn Robinson (Big Ten POY)
1994–95 Joe Smith (ACC POY)
1995–96 Marcus Camby (A10 POY)
1996–97 Tim Duncan (ACC POY)
1997–98 Antawn Jamison (ACC POY)
1998–99 Elton Brand (ACC POY)
1999–00 Kenyon Martin (Conference USA POY)
2000–01 Shane Battier (ACC POY)
2001–02 Jason Williams
2003–04 Jameer Nelson (A10 POY)
2005–06 JJ Redick (ACC POY)
2006–07 Kevin Durant (Big 12 POY)
2007–08 Tyler Hansbrough
2008–09 Blake Griffin (Big 12 POY)
2009–10 Evan Turner (Big Ten POY)
2011–12 Anthony Davis (SEC POY)
2012–13 Trey Burke (Big Ten POY)
2013–14 Doug McDermott (Big East POY)
2014–15 Frank Kaminsky (Big Ten POY)
2015–16 Buddy Hield (Big 12 POY)
2016–17 Frank Mason III (Big 12 POY)
2017–18 Jalen Brunson (Big East POY)
2018–19 Zion Williamson (ACC POY)
2020–21 Luka Garza (Big Ten POY)
2021–22 Oscar Tshiebwe (ACC POY)
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Uhh duh... Name the last time a conference had 2 players putting up Edeys and TJDs numbers. No one has put up TJDs numbers since Tim Duncan.
 
For some reason Purdue are struggling to understand that no one is saying Edey isn't the frontrunner. Just that the race is much closer than y'all want to accept. And the conference standings are going to define how close the POY race is.
 
IMSKRONG said:
It's the most likely. And I've stated what would need to happen for Edey not win B1G POY. Right now, there is a better shot at a share but it depends on the media.
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Again, you are not thinking logically. The NPOY is regarded as having the best season in the nation by definition. If you are the best in the nation, you are better than a player in any conference except for yourself. So how is it logical to say that a player in your conference is as good or equal to you when it is stated that you are the best in the nation and superior to all others? In order to give a Co-Player Conference award you would have to give the same two Co-NPOY in order to be logically consistent and that is almost certainly not going to happen regardless of what your conference only stats argument is.
 
arcb102000 said:
Again, you are not thinking logically. The NPOY is regarded as having the best season in the nation by definition. If you are the best in the nation, you are better than a player in any conference except for yourself. So how is it logical to say that a player in your conference is as good or equal to you when it is stated that you are the best in the nation and superior to all others? In order to give a Co-Player Conference award you would have to give the same two Co-NPOY in order to be logically consistent and that is almost certainly not going to happen regardless of what your conference only stats argument is.
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Your brain really really struggles with reading and comprehension.
 
IMSKRONG said:
Your brain really really struggles with reading and comprehension.
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If so, please address the logic of your contention that one can possibly be judged superior in performance to someone in your conference when that someone is judged as superior to everyone else in the nation. Hopefully, you will then help me overcome my "struggle" with reading and comprehension.

As for everything being close, the Las Vegas people disagree. As has been posted in this thread, you have to bet $1400 to win $100 for Edey in the NPOY competition. That is 1-14 odds, which translates into 93.3% probability. For TJD, a $100 bet pays $2K. That is 20-1 odds and a 4.8% probability. In my math classes, 93.3 and 4.8 are not considered close.
 
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arcb102000 said:
If so, please address the logic of your contention that one can possibly be judged superior in performance to someone in your conference when that someone is judged as superior to everyone else in the nation. Hopefully, you will then help me overcome my "struggle" with reading and comprehension.

As for everything being close, the Las Vegas people disagree. As has been posted in this thread, you have to bet $1400 to win $100 for Edey in the NPOY competition. That is 1-14 odds, which translates into 93.3% probability. For TJD, a $100 bet pays $2K. that is 20-1 odds and a 4.8% probability. In my math classes, 93.3 and 4.8 are not considered close.
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Well if you'd ever read and comprehend, you'd figure out what's been said. Good luck.
 
I have read and nowhere do you seem to address the logic of your argument and the apparent cognitive dissonance in your logic. Again, how can one be best in the nation and not be best in your conference when your conference resides in the nation?

Forget numbers, how is this statement logical?
 
arcb102000 said:
I have read and nowhere do you seem to address the logic of your argument and the apparent cognitive dissonance in your logic. Again, how can one be best in the nation and not be best in your conference when your conference resides in the nation?

Forget numbers, how is this statement logical?
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I don't know... How is it 2 of the best players in the nation can also be a conference POY race? I'm not sure why that's hard to grasp?
 
2 of the best players can be in a conference POY race. That is possible logically. However, when one is a prohibitive favorite for NPOY, then the race for the conference title cannot be closer than the race for the national title. That is simple logic. The national race supersedes the conference race.

Note: you have consistently ignored the logical flaws in your argument in this discussion. You have refused to discuss them and instead throw up numbers in an attempt to muddy the waters. Focus on the logic behind your argument.

Forget TJD and Edey. If you determine that someone from Texas to be the oldest person in the USA, then by definition they are older than someone in Kansas, someone in California or someone in New York. The larger set dominates the smaller. For the same reason, the best player in the country must be the best player in their conference.

Also, media votes both awards. In the case of the conference awards, are the media voters instructed to specifically concentrate ONLY upon conference performance? If you do not know that for sure, your whole argument evaporates because voters are then free to consider pre-conference performance in determining their votes. I am not aware the restriction is indicated to voters.
 
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