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Trump being tough on Putin

No country is expected to "contribute" 2% of GDP to NATO. The NATO budget, of which the United States currently contributes about 16% (the same as Germany) is only about 2.5B Euro. The agreement you reference is one for all NATO members to spend 2% of their GDP on their own defense. This is different than a "contribution" to NATO. The agreement in question said that the countries should reach the 2% threshold by 2024. When Trump kept saying that WE were paying more because the NATO countries weren't "paying their fair share," he was lying. Many had not yet reached 2% of GDP as their defense budget, but we have yet to even reach the point when they were supposed to get there.
I don’t know where you’re getting 16%. As of 2021, the US was contributing 22% and Germany was 15%, just like I said.

Your other point is a difference without a distinction. Their own defense is really no different than NATO because they are all part of NATO and by themselves they can’t protect themselves from Russia. How many active soldiers does Germany have? How many does Russia have? Try 183,000 vs over 1,000,000? Russia could roll into Germany tomorrow and take it over because Germany’s capabilities are limited due to equipment availability rates (in many cases less than 50%). France is even more of a military lightweight. So GTFOH with this bullshit. No European country can take on Russia by itself. It would be a total wipeout.
 
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It wasn't supposed to be a light switch to 2 percent in 2024. Many countries were sitting on their bums. Rightly called out. Your TDS is obvious.
Doesn't matter how the countries get there, they have until 2024. It's fine for Trump to say they should get there faster and to put pressure on them to do so. But to say they were not meeting an obligation was a lie, because said obligation had not taken effect yet.

He was successful in getting some countries to accelerate their spending increases. Good for him. I'm not talking good/bad or right/wrong here, I'm talking about true/untrue. It is untrue that NATO allies were not meeting their obligations in terms of defense spending.
 
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I don’t know where you’re getting 16%. As of 2021, the US was contributing 22% and Germany was 15%, just like I said.
I got it from the NATO website, as you can see in the link I provided. A pretty reliable source on that topic, I'd think.

As a non-snarky answer, the chart on the site says that current funding percentages took effect 1/1/2021. I think Trump actually can take some credit for reducing our percentage to be the same as Germany's, although, in the grand scheme, it's not all that much of a difference in terms of actual dollars. It may have been 22% before 2021.
Your other point is a difference without a distinction. Their own defense is really no different than NATO because they are all part of NATO and by themselves they can’t protect themselves from Russia.
I never said they could.

I'm seriously not even trying to make a political point here. I'm making no comment on whether I think NATO countries should've been spending more or not. Maybe 2% isn't even enough. But the suggestion that countries who have yet to meet the 2% threshold are somehow delinquent based on the agreement between them is factually false. If we're still there in 2024, then it will be true. And the defense budget of any individual country is not a "contribution" to NATO in any sense of the word.

I also recognize that we spend a lot of money to have a significant military presence in Europe. But, that's not about NATO obligations, per se. We made the decision decades ago that a secure Europe was in our own national interest and have acted accordingly. Perhaps there's a discussion that if other NATO countries had larger militaries, we wouldn't need to have as much of a presence ourselves.
 
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Well you don't know that, hope we don't find out.......and your uneducated opinion means squat. Nice to see you believe in a communist psycho more than our democratic friends in europe. Wow, just like trump and his republican lackeys.

I could use your overly simplistic cause and effect logic and say there has been no wars in Europe since NATO was founded in the 70+ years since NATO was founded.........so therefore NATO is responsible for that.

But since framing complex problems in absolutes is freakin asinine, I'll just say that NATO has been an integral part of the peace in Europe since the end of WW2 and the fall of the Iron Curtain.

I guess it's just dumb luck that so many former soviet bloc countries leaped at the chance to join such a toothless, gutless poodle.

You people and all your "America First" bullshit make me sick. First chance you get you choose partisanship over country. Piss off.
No wars in Europe in the last 70 years? interesting. I should tell my friend who escaped to the US from Bosnia after being conscripted in the Army as a teenager.
 
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So I’ll respond to your post with: So What??
So what? Look at the maps. Much of Europe, including many NATO countries, are dependent on Russia for oil and natural gas. Cutting off these pipelines as 'sanctions' is going to handicap Europe more than Russia.

Why the Toughest Sanctions on Russia Are the Hardest for Europe to Wield​

Moscow relies on the money it makes by selling oil and gas, but that energy fuels Europe’s economy and heats its homes.

The Luhansk power station in Shchastia in eastern Ukraine was heavily bombed on Tuesday.


The Luhansk power station in Shchastia in eastern Ukraine was heavily bombed on Tuesday./The New York Times
Patricia CohenStanley Reed
By Patricia Cohen and Stanley Reed
Feb. 25, 2022, 3:00 a.m. ET
The punishing sanctions that the United States and European Union have so far announced against Russia for its invasion of Ukraine include shutting the government and banks out of global financial markets, restricting technology exports and freezing assets of influential Russians. Noticeably missing from that list is a reprisal that might cause Russia the most pain: choking off the export of Russian fuel.
The omission is not surprising. In recent years, the European Union has received nearly 40 percent of its gas and more than a quarter of its oil from Russia. That energy heats Europe’s homes, powers its factories and fuels its vehicles, while pumping enormous sums of money into the Russian economy.

Losing out on those revenues would be hard for Russia, which relies heavily on energy exports to finance its government operations and support its economy. Oil and gas exports provide more than a third of the national budget. But a cutoff would hurt Europe as well.

“You want the sanctions to hurt the perpetrator more than the victim,” said David L. Goldwyn, who served as a State Department special envoy on energy in the Obama administration.

The situation would surprise some of last century’s cold warriors. Throughout most of the post-World War II era of superpower confrontation, many analysts believed that the more economically intertwined the Soviet Union and the West became, the less likely it was that conflicts would arise. Trade and economic self-interest would ultimately make allies out of everybody, the argument went.

Now, the European Union is Russia’s largest trading partner, accounting for 37 percent of its global trade in 2020. About 70 percent of Russian gas exports and half of its oil exports go to Europe. The flip side of mutual interest is mutual pain. European leaders are caught between wanting to punish Russia for its aggression and to protect their own economies.

The Nord Stream 2 gas receiving station on Germany’s Baltic coast on Wednesday.

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The Nord Stream 2 gas receiving station on Germany’s Baltic coast on Wednesday.

So far, Germany’s decision on Tuesday to halt Nord Stream 2 — the completed gas pipeline that directly links Russia and northeastern Germany — is among the most consequential that Europe has taken, said Mathieu Savary, chief European investment strategist at BCA Research.

As for the gas that is already flowing to Europe, Western leaders are reluctant to reduce it further given that during the last three months of 2021, Russia shrank its pipeline exports by close to 25 percent compared with a year earlier, according to the International Energy Agency. Europe’s reserves stand at just 30 percent, and Europeans are already paying exorbitant prices for energy.

Daily business updates The latest coverage of business, markets and the economy, sent by email each weekday. Get it sent to your inbox.

The conflict is occurring when supplies of both oil and natural gas have been tight for months, driving up prices. “There are serious concerns” that Moscow will tighten exports further and send prices higher, said Helima Croft, head of commodities at RBC Capital Markets, an investment bank.

Germany, Russia’s largest trading partner in Europe, gets 55 percent of its supply from Russia. Italy, the second-biggest trading partner, gets 41 percent. At a forum in Milan last week, the Russian ambassador Sergey Razov said President Vladimir V. Putin had told the Italian prime minister, Mario Draghi, that “if Italy needs more gas we are ready to supply it.”

Mr. Putin also made a point of saying that roughly 500 Italian businesses have operations in Russia and that bilateral investments are worth $8 billion.
Austria, Turkey and France are large consumers of Russian natural gas. In central and Eastern Europe, Hungary, Poland, the Czech Republic and Slovakia are the biggest customers, the Russian energy giant Gazprom said.

On Thursday, the International Energy Agency, which would probably coordinate any response to a global energy disruption, said the supplies of oil “most immediately at risk” were 250,000 barrels a day from Russia that move through Ukraine to Hungary, Slovakia and the Czech Republic. That amount is relatively small in a global market that consumes 100 million barrels a day, but its loss could create severe shortages in those countries.

The West is not without tools. Mr. Goldwyn, the former State Department envoy, said Russia’s energy sales would still likely be hurt by sanctions on Russian financial institutions and other measures, even if oil and gas exports were not directly targeted.

Russia’s Attack on Ukraine and the Global Economy​


Card 1 of 6
A rising concern. Russia’s attack on Ukraine could cause dizzying spikes in prices for energy and food and could spook investors. The economic damage from supply disruptions and economic sanctions would be severe in some countries and industries and unnoticed in others.
The cost of energy. Oil prices already are the highest since 2014, and they have risen as the conflict has escalated. Russia is the third-largest producer of oil, providing roughly one of every 10 barrels the global economy consumes.
Gas supplies. Europe gets nearly 40 percent of its natural gas from Russia, and it is likely to be walloped with higher heating bills. Natural gas reserves are running low, and European leaders have accused Russia’s president, Vladimir V. Putin, of reducing supplies to gain a political edge.
Food prices. Russia is the world’s largest supplier of wheat and, together with Ukraine, accounts for nearly a quarter of total global exports. In countries like Egypt and Turkey, that flow of grain makes up more than 70 percent of wheat imports.
Shortages of essential metals. The price of palladium, used in automotive exhaust systems and mobile phones, has been soaring amid fears that Russia, the world’s largest exporter of the metal, could be cut off from global markets. The price of nickel, another key Russian export, has also been rising.
Financial turmoil. Global banks are bracing for the effects of sanctions designed to restrict Russia’s access to foreign capital and limit its ability to process payments in dollars, euros and other currencies crucial for trade. Banks are also on alert for retaliatory cyberattacks by Russia.

The money that Russia makes from energy exports could also be reduced if shippers, wary of the growing complexity of transporting Russian crude and supplies, raise what they charge Moscow, Mr. Goldwyn said.
He added it was possible that the White House would ban imports of Russian crude to the United States. Such a move, experts said, would force American refiners to rely on other suppliers and Moscow to find other buyers for around 700,000 barrels a day. China would most likely be one, after the two countries pledged to “strongly support each other.”


A liquefied natural gas plant in Prigorodnoye, Russia, last year. Supplies of L.N.G. to Europe from Russia have recently been outpaced by other sources.

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A liquefied natural gas plant in Prigorodnoye, Russia, last year.

Eurasia Group, a political risk consultancy, pointed out in a note on Thursday that while the United States and Europe would try to avoid directly targeting Russian fuel exports, “the blizzard of new restrictions will force many traders to be exceedingly cautious in handling Russian barrels.”

Sanctions might also aim at blighting Russia’s future prospects. “If the U.S. targets energy, I expect it would be through technology controls that target future Russian liquefied natural gas and hydrogen,” said Scott Modell, managing director of Rapidan Energy Group, a consulting firm based in Washington.

If Russia cuts back on gas exports, Europe will try to make up the difference from already strained supplies kept in storage, and by scouring the world for more liquefied natural gas. Flows of L.N.G. from elsewhere, mostly the United States, have exceeded Russian gas volumes to Europe in recent weeks. Such measures would probably help Western European countries like Germany and Italy more than those in southern and Eastern Europe with fewer alternatives to Russian gas.

Even without a clear cutoff of fuel by Moscow or a disruption by war, there is a substantial risk that extraordinarily high gas and electricity prices will continue, squeezing hard-pressed consumers and, possibly, pushing more businesses to scale back their operations. In recent months, some energy-intensive businesses, including fertilizer makers, have announced closures because of high gas costs.


An oil refinery in eastern Ukraine last week.

Image
 
Would you rather have Putin engage the President directly like he did with Trump or have what we have now where Putin has zero respect for Biden or Harris and only confers via Macron?

Why did Putin not make these moves in Ukraine when Trump was in office? Only when spineless Obama and Biden were? Putin has zero respect for the Ds. They are weaklings with almost no balls. Putin will do whatever he wants with impunity because he knows the Ds will not do anything that really scares him. Trump’s unpredictability actually works against despots like Putin, Xi, and Kim.
Would Trump have done anything? He was withholding aid to Ukraine during his presidency. Trump's latest comments lead me to believe that he wouldn't have done anything to stop Putin either.
 
You don't know what you're talking about.

Ukraine applied to start the process of NATO membership in 2008.

Ukraine elected a new President, and that president was more aligned with Russia, so he stopped the process in 2010. Poroshenko followed and continued the trend of Ukraine backing away from NATO.

In 2019, Ukraine made some changes that would allow EU and NATO membership, in 2020 Zelensky took power and started turning back towards NATO, and here we are.

NATO had nothing to do with this. NATO protects NATO countries, and Ukraine is NOT a NATO country by Ukraine's choice.
So are you supporting the invasion of a peaceful nation and the slaughtering of young children as Putin did this morning, killing many who were asleep in their beds?
 
So are you supporting the invasion of a peaceful nation and the slaughtering of young children as Putin did this morning, killing many who were asleep in their beds?
I highly doubt he is supporting Putin’s invasion whatsoever. This is a tragedy/travesty playing out in real-time in front of our own eyes. Putin has invaded a free country and is attempting to topple a democratically-elected government in order to install a puppet government that is essentially controlled by/from Moscow.
 
I highly doubt he is supporting Putin’s invasion whatsoever. This is a tragedy/travesty playing out in real-time in front of our own eyes. Putin has invaded a free country and is attempting to topple a democratically-elected government in order to install a puppet government that is essentially controlled by/from Moscow.
If he and his cronies aren't somehow removed, that will not be the only free countries that he invades. Putin understands one thing....Being the aggressor and pushing every limit until someone puts a bullet right in the center of his eyes. Biden's sanctions are weak and a joke. Putin only cares about money for his conquests.
 
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Would Trump have done anything? He was withholding aid to Ukraine during his presidency. Trump's latest comments lead me to believe that he wouldn't have done anything to stop Putin either.
why didn't Putin try Trump?
 
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What, exactly, do you guys think Trump would be doing differently that would’ve deterred Putin or stopped him now?
Putin's economy is heavily dependent on energy exports and if Trump was still president this "income stream" coming from Europe and USA would have been reduced. Seems to me that there is a cause and effect between Trump's energy policy of promoting domestic energy sources vs Biden's reliance on other unfriendly countries for energy
 
Putin's economy is heavily dependent on energy exports and if Trump was still president this "income stream" coming from Europe and USA would have been reduced. Seems to me that there is a cause and effect between Trump's energy policy of promoting domestic energy sources vs Biden's reliance on other unfriendly countries for energy

US imports of Russian crude and petroleum are up more than 30% starting … wait for it… in April of 2019.


US imports of Russian oil and petroleum

And “reduced income streams”, which isn’t true anyway, don’t stop invasions. They are criticized as “weak” when done by Biden after all.

I ask again: What would Trump have done to prevent or stop this invasion?
 
US imports of Russian crude and petroleum are up more than 30% starting … wait for it… in April of 2019.


US imports of Russian oil and petroleum

And “reduced income streams”, which isn’t true anyway, don’t stop invasions. They are criticized as “weak” when done by Biden after all.

I ask again: What would Trump have done to prevent or stop this invasion?
Lol..I guess nothing except he would have nuked Russia. I guess Trump was one lucky guy no new wars under his regime. Clearly the world is now safer under tough guy Biden. It was a miracle Biden saved the world from the trigger happy Trump. Again, name one thing Biden has done well since being elected. Stand up and be counted
 
What, exactly, do you guys think Trump would be doing differently that would’ve deterred Putin or stopped him now?
For one thing, we wouldn't be STILL buying oil from Russia. We'd be supplying Europe and raping Putin's economy. We just bought more from Russia today...and will buy more tomorrow and the next day.

BTW....slow Joe finally opened up an oil field last week he closed on day one of him being in office after members of his own party began to question his actions.
 
Lol..I guess nothing except he would have nuked Russia. I guess Trump was one lucky guy no new wars under his regime. Clearly the world is now safer under tough guy Biden. It was a miracle Biden saved the world from the trigger happy Trump. Again, name one thing Biden has done well since being elected. Stand up and be counted
Biden has done jack $**t. He's failed the country, he's failed the Democrat party, but to answer what he's done well....he's giving the House and Senate back to the Republicans.

But the most important....He's stayed alive to keep Kammy as VP.
 
What, exactly, do you guys think Trump would be doing differently that would’ve deterred Putin or stopped him now?
The line of thinking goes that Trump’s unpredictability would give Putin pause. Biden would follow the “standard” playbook - with Trump you never quite know what he would do. I think there’s a kernel of truth in this line of thinking. Trump might get Putin to back off or he might start a nuclear war……
 
why didn't Putin try Trump?
It's already been pointed out that US imports of Russian oil increased in 2019 while under Trump. Like I said Trump withheld aid to Ukraine. So maybe Putin was counting on that withheld aid hurting Ukraine. Then Trump loses, America resumes its aid to Ukraine and Putin decides to take action without Trump.

Trump continues to speak highly of Putin. Nothing from his comments or actions lead me to believe he would have stopped Putin and it's very possible that Trump was actively harming Ukraine to Putin's gain. Biden reverses a lot of that and Putin gets desperate. Putin's actions are like that of a cornered animal. So basing any of his actions on who the President of the USA is also pretty self absorbed of Americans to say.

Biden has been saying for weeks that this was coming and many talking head Republicans said he was crying wolf. Hell Tucker Carlson was going on and on about rooting for Russia in its conflict with Ukraine. What exactly is the Republican party's stance on Putin?
 
The line of thinking goes that Trump’s unpredictability would give Putin pause. Biden would follow the “standard” playbook - with Trump you never quite know what he would do. I think there’s a kernel of truth in this line of thinking. Trump might get Putin to back off or he might start a nuclear war……
Here's the advantage with Trump vs. Putin. Putin is a lifelong bully, and that is the only thing he understands. His last wish is for a nuclear war. Trump in many ways is the same bully mentality and Putin not only feared it, he respects it.
 
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It's already been pointed out that US imports of Russian oil increased in 2019 while under Trump. Like I said Trump withheld aid to Ukraine. So maybe Putin was counting on that withheld aid hurting Ukraine. Then Trump loses, America continues its aid and Putin decides to take action without Trump.

Trump continues to speak highly of Putin. Nothing from comments or actions lead me to believe he would have stopped Putin and it's very possible that Trump was actively harming Ukraine to Putin's gain. Biden reverses a lot of that and Putin gets desperate.
In God's name what did Biden reverse. Fuel costs? Food costs? Clothing? Heating costs? Covid?
 
In God's name what did Biden reverse. Fuel costs? Food costs? Clothing? Heating costs? Covid?
Again, the Republican party has been hard to follow in all this. They have been claiming Putin is doing this because Biden is weak. I think it is significantly more likely that Putin is doing this because he lost his buddy Trump and is getting desperate.

We know that Fox News talking heads had direct lines to Trump. Those talking heads questioning why Americans should hate Putin, downplaying Russia's actions leading up to the invasion, and Tucker Carlson going as far as to say he is "rooting for Russia" and that Americans should "rethink their feelings about good ol' Vlad." are pretty telling.
 
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Lol..I guess nothing except he would have nuked Russia. I guess Trump was one lucky guy no new wars under his regime. Clearly the world is now safer under tough guy Biden. It was a miracle Biden saved the world from the trigger happy Trump. Again, name one thing Biden has done well since being elected. Stand up and be counted

The line of thinking goes that Trump’s unpredictability would give Putin pause. Biden would follow the “standard” playbook - with Trump you never quite know what he would do. I think there’s a kernel of truth in this line of thinking. Trump might get Putin to back off or he might start a nuclear war……
So we all agree: there is nothing Trump would’ve actually done differently that would’ve stopped this.

Good. Now, let’s stop bitching about Biden and focus on the actual problem: Vladimir Putin.
 
In God's name what did Biden reverse. Fuel costs? Food costs? Clothing? Heating costs? Covid?
Throw in that Mitt Romney saw all this coming and just threw both Obama and Trump under the bus is pretty telling as well.
 
Here's the advantage with Trump vs. Putin. Putin is a lifelong bully, and that is the only thing he understands. His last wish is for a nuclear war. Trump in many ways is the same bully mentality and Putin not only feared it, he respects it.
Do you think Trump would have threatened nuclear war to defend Ukraine, a non-treaty, non-NATO, non-EU country?
And then what would Trump have done if Putin invaded anyway?
 
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Do you think Trump would have threatened nuclear war to defend Ukraine, a non-treaty, non-NATO, non-EU country?
And then what would Trump have done if Putin invaded anyway?
My thoughts are simple...Were Trump in office, Putin would not have invaded as long as Trump were in office. As for the threat of a nuclear war, give Trump credit that there were no wars started anywhere under DJT.
 
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Again, the Republican party has been hard to follow in all this. They have been claiming Putin is doing this because Biden is weak. I think it is significantly more likely that Putin is doing this because he lost his buddy Trump and is getting desperate.

We know that Fox News talking heads had direct lines to Trump. Those talking heads questioning why Americans should hate Putin, downplaying Russia's actions leading up to the invasion, and Tucker Carlson going as far as to say he is "rooting for Russia" and that Americans should "rethink their feelings about good ol' Vlad." are pretty telling.
Sure, that's the reason. Trump's son or daughter never had laptops with Putin's name in them.
 
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So we all agree: there is nothing Trump would’ve actually done differently that would’ve stopped this.

Good. Now, let’s stop bitching about Biden and focus on the actual problem: Vladimir Putin.
LOL..Obama/Biden = Crimea. Trump=Putin did nothing. Biden = Ukraine. By the way, I bet you're happy what Biden has done to your fuel costs. Business doing well as a result? To answer your question Trump did stop Putin from invading Ukraine because it never happened under his watch. By the way, you weren't one of those who complained about Trump getting Ukraine stinger missiles were you?
 
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Since you mentioned it, overnight gasoline went from $3.29/gal to $3.59 here in Madison, Indiana.
That’s a big percentage jump. We’re getting close to $5/gal but the good news is we don’t put a lot of miles on our SUV. A full tank lasts us 3-4 weeks. I feel for those who have long commutes
 
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