ADVERTISEMENT

Trump being tough on Putin

We know these facts: Putin invades Ukraine under Biden’s watch. Putin did not invade Ukraine under Trumps watch. Those are the facts. Those won’t change no matter how much you try spinning them.

You do know this is a silly game, right? For example,

We know these facts: COVID went out of hand under Trump's watch. That's a fact. That won't change no matter how much you try spinning them.

If we want to play this kind of silly game, how about China going on a genocide on the Uighurs under Trump's watch? That's a fact. That won't change no matter how much you try spinning them.

The list goes on and on.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bill4411
You do know this is a silly game, right? For example,

We know these facts: COVID went out of hand under Trump's watch. That's a fact. That won't change no matter how much you try spinning them.

If we want to play this kind of silly game, how about China going on a genocide on the Uighurs under Trump's watch? That's a fact. That won't change no matter how much you try spinning them.

The list goes on and on.
More people have died from Covid under the Biden administration than under the Trump administration. Biden made it sound like he had all the answers to “fix the situation”. Yes, what a great job he’s done…..🙄😵‍💫
 
Spineless is when POTUS agrees with Putin over his own CIA staff. I can't think of anyone more spineless than that.
What would you do if parts of your own government’s CIA were actively working against your interests and your country’s interests? You make it sound like the CIA was some kind of unimpeachable entity - beyond reproach. We’ve come to find out that they were just an extension of the D party……
 
You do know this is a silly game, right? For example,

We know these facts: COVID went out of hand under Trump's watch. That's a fact. That won't change no matter how much you try spinning them.

If we want to play this kind of silly game, how about China going on a genocide on the Uighurs under Trump's watch? That's a fact. That won't change no matter how much you try spinning them.

The list goes on and on.
You obviously didn’t read the entire thread to understand the context around my reply
 
Yeah I’m calling bullshit here. You’re being a hypocrite to boot. Oh and don’t feel bad for me. Feel bad for the others on here openly rooting for Putin so they can continue to yell “Leths go Branduuun”. If those aren’t the ones you feel sorry for then like I said, you’re full of shit.

And a quick edit: You say “I’m An InDePeNdEnT” while groveling that Trump wouldn’t have allowed this to happen. You can take your TDS and shove it, BBG. Independent, my ass.
I can see why you're calling bullshit, since you spend all your time with your head up your ass.
Hint: That shit didn't come from a bull. It came from a mindless drone.
 
Standing up to Russian proxies is one thing. Openly having US troops in combat territory in a foreign country against Russian forces is totally different. No one would advise Trump to do that, and if Trump did, he would be an idiot. And even I don't think Trump would do that.

It's basically the difference between being willing to take out the Hezbollah but not directly attacking Tehran.
gr8, going into Ukraine is a bad idea - no doubt. But where does the “red line” get drawn with Putin? What’s it going to take? He’s actively engaged in a military campaign to take out a democratically-elected government and to replace it with a puppet government controlled by him.

People who think that sanctions and halting gas pipelines will stop this guy are deluding themselves. What’s to stop him from invading other former USSR states and taking them over too? This feels like Neville Chamberlain’s appeasement strategy with Hitler before WW II. The more Chamberlain and the Allies gave the more emboldened Hitler became.
 
gr8, going into Ukraine is a bad idea - no doubt. But where does the “red line” get drawn with Putin? What’s it going to take? He’s actively engaged in a military campaign to take out a democratically-elected government and to replace it with a puppet government controlled by him.

People who think that sanctions and halting gas pipelines will stop this guy are deluding themselves. What’s to stop him from invading other former USSR states and taking them over too? This feels like Neville Chamberlain’s appeasement strategy with Hitler before WW II. The more Chamberlain and the Allies gave the more emboldened Hitler became.
So then how is this administration weak with Putin when you're saying that essentially nothing will work, including going into Ukraine? I agree with your sentiments here, but I don't get the stance on calling this administration weak then. I mean what would the prior administration have done differently? I'm genuinely curious? Because there needs to be a united front here. Unfortunately, there are lots of ELECTED folks on the right who want to lay this right at the feet of Biden when I don't think it would matter who the president was right now (just my opinion, of course). So instead of presenting a united front, even if there is vehement disagreement internally, you've got the Tulsi Gabbards of the world who would rather blame the United States for what's going on vs, you know, Putin. I don't get it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bill4411
gr8, going into Ukraine is a bad idea - no doubt. But where does the “red line” get drawn with Putin? What’s it going to take? He’s actively engaged in a military campaign to take out a democratically-elected government and to replace it with a puppet government controlled by him.

People who think that sanctions and halting gas pipelines will stop this guy are deluding themselves. What’s to stop him from invading other former USSR states and taking them over too? This feels like Neville Chamberlain’s appeasement strategy with Hitler before WW II. The more Chamberlain and the Allies gave the more emboldened Hitler became.
All great questions. All questions that Biden and Europe have to answer.

But for the small contingent that is sitting around on the internet saying:

"Putin wouldn't have done this if Trump were President!"
"Trump would stop Putin!"
"We should have troops in Ukraine!"
"Biden is fumbling this!"
etc. etc.

That small contingent is basically a group of idiots. Where do you draw the line? I don't know. That's why I won't sit here and be critical of what's going on because there isn't an easy solution for Biden and there wouldn't be an easy solution for Trump.

Condemnation, strong economic and political sanctions are a good start. Will they stop this guy? Probably not in Ukraine. Is Putin interested in trying to take over all of the former Soviet states? I seriously doubt it, especially since three of them are no-shit NATO members and THAT would certainly draw military intervention. It's just that Ukraine is very important to Russian access to Europe... if Ukraine turns to NATO, then the Russian western border is entirely allied with NATO with the exception of basically meaningless and land-locked Belarus, and Putin's not going to let that happen.

Expulsion from the UNSC would be awesome, but I think that goes against UN Charter so I'm not sure how possible that is.

Fighting a ground war with Russia in their neighboring country? Well, I'm about 100% certain that's not the right plan.
 
gr8, going into Ukraine is a bad idea - no doubt. But where does the “red line” get drawn with Putin? What’s it going to take? He’s actively engaged in a military campaign to take out a democratically-elected government and to replace it with a puppet government controlled by him.

People who think that sanctions and halting gas pipelines will stop this guy are deluding themselves. What’s to stop him from invading other former USSR states and taking them over too? This feels like Neville Chamberlain’s appeasement strategy with Hitler before WW II. The more Chamberlain and the Allies gave the more emboldened Hitler became.
If the former USSR states are members of NATO, article 5 is designed to stop him, one way or another.
 
All great questions. All questions that Biden and Europe have to answer.

But for the small contingent that is sitting around on the internet saying:

"Putin wouldn't have done this if Trump were President!"
"Trump would stop Putin!"
"We should have troops in Ukraine!"
"Biden is fumbling this!"
etc. etc.

That small contingent is basically a group of idiots. Where do you draw the line? I don't know. That's why I won't sit here and be critical of what's going on because there isn't an easy solution for Biden and there wouldn't be an easy solution for Trump.

Condemnation, strong economic and political sanctions are a good start. Expulsion from the UNSC would be awesome, but I think that goes against UN Charter so I'm not sure how possible that is.

Fighting a ground war with Russia in their neighboring country? Well, I'm about 100% certain that's not the right plan.
There’s got to be a way to get his attention and his apprehension. I just don’t what it is.

A massive cyberwar? Rain down missiles on his convoys? Completely cut Russia off from the International Banking System? I know this - what we’re doing right now is likely not going to get him to change his plans.
 
If the former USSR states are members of NATO, article 5 is designed to stop him, one way or another.
NATO is like a toothless, gutless poodle. It doesn’t have the wherewithal and resolve to stop Putin (by itself) if he decides to invade NATO member countries.
 
There’s got to be a way to get his attention and his apprehension. I just don’t what it is.

A massive cyberwar? Rain down missiles on his convoys? Completely cut Russia off from the International Banking System? I know this - what we’re doing right now is likely not going to get him to change his plans.
I mean as much as I think we ALL would like to do the things you mentioned, isn't the risk of him just releasing a bunch of nukes that much higher if any of those things happen? He's a loon, so I don't think that would be a stretch for him at all.
 
I mean as much as I think we ALL would like to do the things you mentioned, isn't the risk of him just releasing a bunch of nukes that much higher if any of those things happen? He's a loon, so I don't think that would be a stretch for him at all.
So the choices are let him do whatever he wants or expect a full-scale war, potentially nuclear?
 
". . . no US president with a modicum of sense is getting directly involved in this militarily . . . ."
I fully agree with that statement. However there is an economic war brewing over energy, specifically oil and natural gas.

How much oil does the US import?​

The US Energy Information Administration (EIA) has published data for the amount of oil that the US imports. In the month of November 2021, which is the last data set available, the US imported 254,162,000 barrels of oil. It consumes a stunning 17.2 million barrels per day, much more than the just over 3 million of Russia.

The vast majority is from Canada, 136,090,000, making up over 50 percent of all imports. From Russia, 17,855,000 barrels were imported, with November's imports being the lowest value of the year, but still 7 percent of all imports. With sanctions looming, there is a large liklihood that these barrels will stop arriving in the US.

Oil Imports
 
  • Love
Reactions: TheGunner
I fully agree with that statement. However there is an economic war brewing over energy, specifically oil and natural gas.

How much oil does the US import?​

The US Energy Information Administration (EIA) has published data for the amount of oil that the US imports. In the month of November 2021, which is the last data set available, the US imported 254,162,000 barrels of oil. It consumes a stunning 17.2 million barrels per day, much more than the just over 3 million of Russia.

The vast majority is from Canada, 136,090,000, making up over 50 percent of all imports. From Russia, 17,855,000 barrels were imported, with November's imports being the lowest value of the year, but still 7 percent of all imports. With sanctions looming, there is a large liklihood that these barrels will stop arriving in the US.

Oil Imports
So the US loses 7% of its oil imports. Russia loses the ability to sell its oil to the North America and Europe. Who do you think pays a heavier price there?
 
How do you stop him without using force?
You don’t. So the question is: how do you determine when force is absolutely necessary?

And then you do what’s being done: economic and political sanctions. International isolation. Try to control the narrative. Supposedly 1695 Russians were detained just today for protesting the war.
 
More people have died from Covid under the Biden administration than under the Trump administration. Biden made it sound like he had all the answers to “fix the situation”. Yes, what a great job he’s done…..🙄😵‍💫

What kind of logic is that? So Hitler built up Nazi Germany's military when Chamberlain was the UK Prime Minister, and invaded Poland under his watch. Winston Churchill eventually won the war. But more British died under Churchill than under Chamberlain, so Churchill is the one to blame??? :rolleyes:o_O
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bill4411
You mean that time that his own CIA fabricated intel about Russian bounties that was later proven to not be credible? That time?

Good job sidetracking. Is that why Trump disagrees with his own CIA?


Trump declined to endorse the US government’s assessment that Russia interfered in the 2016 presidential election. Are you so naive as to believe that Russia was absolutely clean in the 2016 election? No meddling whatsoever?
 
Good job sidetracking. Is that why Trump disagrees with his own CIA?


Trump declined to endorse the US government’s assessment that Russia interfered in the 2016 presidential election. Are you so naive as to believe that Russia was absolutely clean in the 2016 election? No meddling whatsoever?
And Obama declined to be tougher on Russia like Trump was even though he was warned. And look, now we have WW3.

Here I'll even use CNN:
 
What would you do if parts of your own government’s CIA were actively working against your interests and your country’s interests? You make it sound like the CIA was some kind of unimpeachable entity - beyond reproach. We’ve come to find out that they were just an extension of the D party……

Can we stop the sidetracking? The issue at hand is whether Russia meddled in our election. To be clear, we are talking about MEDDLING in our election, not COLLUDING with Trump. They are two different things. Mueller Report couldn't find enough evidence to conclude that there was COLLUSION, but he also made it clear that there was Russian MEDDLING by saying that "Russian government interfered in the 2016 presidential election in sweeping and systematic fashion." Are you disagreeing with that?


And if there is indeed Russian meddling, what would you call the POTUS who refused to acknowledge that, but act like Putin's parrot and just regurgitate Putin's "denial" as if it is the truth?

If you want to criticize CIA for other things, fine. But on this topic of whether Russia meddles in our election, I thought it was indisputable. You seriously believe that Russia is a saint and stays cleanly on the sideline in all our elections, despite overwhelming evidence otherwise? If so, I am sorry I overestimate your intelligence and patriotism.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bill4411
And Obama declined to be tougher on Russia like Trump was even though he was warned. And look, now we have WW3.

Here I'll even use CNN:


We have different major enemy at different point in time. If say, five years from now, China invades Taiwan and starts WW3, then are we going to go back to a random quote by someone in 2008 who warned that China should be our biggest threat? But wait, if China is then our biggest threat, then what about Russia?

A lot of things can be right: al Qaeda was a threat, ISIS was a threat, Russia was a threat, China was a threat. At different point in time, the threat level varied. George W. Bush once said he looked Putin in the eye and found him to be "very straightforward and trustworthy." If you want to talk about being soft on Russia, that's Exhibit #1. And no, Trump is not tough on Russia either:

 
So the US loses 7% of its oil imports. Russia loses the ability to sell its oil to the North America and Europe. Who do you think pays a heavier price there?
It appears you have little understanding of Europe's dependency on Russia for oil and natural gas. The US losing 7% of its oil imports from Russia is of little consequence. Look at this map, which does not include Nord Stream 1 & 2:

29748.jpg


This map inclues Nordstream 1 & 2:

Russia_GasPipelines_EGD_20191210.jpg
 
  • Love
Reactions: TheGunner
Welp, Nord Stream 2 isn’t a thing. And I don’t particularly care about Europe’s dependency. That’s for them to figure out.

So I’ll respond to your post with: So What??
 
NATO is like a toothless, gutless poodle. It doesn’t have the wherewithal and resolve to stop Putin (by itself) if he decides to invade NATO member countries.
Well you don't know that, hope we don't find out.......and your uneducated opinion means squat. Nice to see you believe in a communist psycho more than our democratic friends in europe. Wow, just like trump and his republican lackeys.

I could use your overly simplistic cause and effect logic and say there has been no wars in Europe since NATO was founded in the 70+ years since NATO was founded.........so therefore NATO is responsible for that.

But since framing complex problems in absolutes is freakin asinine, I'll just say that NATO has been an integral part of the peace in Europe since the end of WW2 and the fall of the Iron Curtain.

I guess it's just dumb luck that so many former soviet bloc countries leaped at the chance to join such a toothless, gutless poodle.

You people and all your "America First" bullshit make me sick. First chance you get you choose partisanship over country. Piss off.
 
Well you don't know that, hope we don't find out.......and your uneducated opinion means squat. Nice to see you believe in a communist psycho more than our democratic friends in europe. Wow, just like trump and his republican lackeys.

I could use your overly simplistic cause and effect logic and say there has been no wars in Europe since NATO was founded in the 70+ years since NATO was founded.........so therefore NATO is responsible for that.

But since framing complex problems in absolutes is freakin asinine, I'll just say that NATO has been an integral part of the peace in Europe since the end of WW2 and the fall of the Iron Curtain.

I guess it's just dumb luck that so many former soviet bloc countries leaped at the chance to join such a toothless, gutless poodle.

You people and all your "America First" bullshit make me sick. First chance you get you choose partisanship over country. Piss off.
You’re so FOS. You lob this crap at me about “overly simplistic cause and effect” and then say unequivocally that there have been no wars in Europe for 70 years because of NATO. The truth is without the USA there is no NATO. We contribute by far the most to the organization (22% for US, 15% for Germany, France 10% and most of Europe still doesn’t contribute the “mandatory” 2% of GDP) and have almost 60,000 service members in Europe including the UK.

You accuse me of partisanship and yet you’re as partisan as any poster on this board. You seemingly have no concept of introspection. And It’s just emotional outrage all day, everyday. Eff you.
 
You’re so FOS. You lob this crap at me about “overly simplistic cause and effect” and then say unequivocally that there have been no wars in Europe for 70 years because of NATO. The truth is without the USA there is no NATO. We contribute by far the most to the organization (22% for US, 15% for Germany, France 10% and most of Europe still doesn’t contribute the “mandatory” 2% of GDP) and have almost 60,000 service members in Europe including the UK.

You accuse me of partisanship and yet you’re as partisan as any poster on this board. You seemingly have no concept of introspection. And It’s just emotional outrage all day, everyday. Eff you.
No country is expected to "contribute" 2% of GDP to NATO. The NATO budget, of which the United States currently contributes about 16% (the same as Germany) is only about 2.5B Euro. The agreement you reference is one for all NATO members to spend 2% of their GDP on their own defense. This is different than a "contribution" to NATO. The agreement in question said that the countries should reach the 2% threshold by 2024. When Trump kept saying that WE were paying more because the NATO countries weren't "paying their fair share," he was lying. Many had not yet reached 2% of GDP as their defense budget, but we have yet to even reach the point when they were supposed to get there.
 
No country is expected to "contribute" 2% of GDP to NATO. The NATO budget, of which the United States currently contributes about 16% (the same as Germany) is only about 2.5B Euro. The agreement you reference is one for all NATO members to spend 2% of their GDP on their own defense. This is different than a "contribution" to NATO. The agreement in question said that the countries should reach the 2% threshold by 2024. When Trump kept saying that WE were paying more because the NATO countries weren't "paying their fair share," he was lying. Many had not yet reached 2% of GDP as their defense budget, but we have yet to even reach the point when they were supposed to get there.
bullshit. He was right on. “Half the alliance — 16 of the 29 countries — don’t even spend 1.5 percent (of gross domestic product) let alone 2 percent that we all agreed on four years ago (at a NATO summit) in Wales,” Michael Fallon, who served as secretary of state for defense from 2014 to 2017, said Tuesday.
They weren't paying their fair share and leaning on US development and operations.
 
bullshit. He was right on. “Half the alliance — 16 of the 29 countries — don’t even spend 1.5 percent (of gross domestic product) let alone 2 percent that we all agreed on four years ago (at a NATO summit) in Wales,” Michael Fallon, who served as secretary of state for defense from 2014 to 2017, said Tuesday.
What I said doesn't contradict this. The agreement was to get to 2% by 2024. You can't say that a country hasn't met i's agreement if we're still 2 years from the deadline. Call it BS if you want, but I literally linked the NATO website.

Trump's whole premise was that we were being fleeced by NATO countries who weren't contributing enough to NATO. The facts are that the countries all contribute to NATO exactly what they are supposed to. It's also true that some are not yet spending 2% of GDP on their own defense. None of that is money owed "to NATO" or to the US.
 
What I said doesn't contradict this. The agreement was to get to 2% by 2024. You can't say that a country hasn't met i's agreement if we're still 2 years from the deadline. Call it BS if you want, but I literally linked the NATO website.
You said he lied, he didn't lie. He had every right, and was spot on in calling out countries not reaching their obligation.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BSIT and SDBoiler1
You said he lied, he didn't lie. He had every right, and was spot on in calling out countries not reaching their obligation.
He lied when he said they weren't paying their fair share as if they owed money to NATO and that we were footing the bill for their delinquency. And, again, we've yet to reach the deadline for the obligation.
 
He lied when he said they weren't paying their fair share as if they owed money to NATO and that we were footing the bill for their delinquency. And, again, we've yet to reach the deadline for the obligation.
It wasn't supposed to be a light switch to 2 percent in 2024. Many countries were sitting on their bums. Rightly called out. Your TDS is obvious.
 
ADVERTISEMENT
ADVERTISEMENT