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PU vs Butler player matchups

StateStreet123

Redshirt Freshman
Aug 9, 2010
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Lewis - PJ/Hill
Dunham - RayDay
Jones - Swanigan
Chabraz/Martin - Vince
Wideman - Haas/Hammons

Only match-up issues I questin are at the 3 and 4 spots.

My thought is that Martin can play perimeter and Chabraz also has a 3 point shot. Jones is not a shooter but a wide body who can drive and do all little things in close. Putting Biggie on Jones may allow Biggie to stay closer to the basket for rebounding.

I havent watched Butler play much. Not sure how much high-ball screen action they run. Could our switching defense get Ray off of Dunham due to picks.....and get Biggie in a mismatch on Dunham?

Thoughts from those that are more knowledgeable on x and o's than I?
 
swani can't guard jones. that is a total mismatch.

My thought is swani never leaves the paint on him. Much like how Purdue guarded Troy WIlliams of IU last year. You're probably right - but can you expand on why you think Jones takes him in that matchup? Drives by him everytime?
 
drives by him every time and probably gets him into foul trouble doing it. He's a senior and quite crafty. I have a lot of respect for his game IQ.
 
drives by him every time and probably gets him into foul trouble doing it. He's a senior and quite crafty. I have a lot of respect for his game IQ.
Very true, but I can't recall him being a power player inside as much as driving and scooping and if that is the case....Hammons or Haas should be there with no need to foul. My concern is Hammons and Haas get looking up so much for blocks that bounce passes around them seem to happen. Swanigan needs to stay near the bucket and I guess I already commented exactly what State Street posted with my initial thoughts. Put Vince more out in space to defend than Caleb making Caleb probably more on Jones. EVERY match-up has potential match-up issues, but suspect that I would want Caleb defending the inside and Vince more on the perimeter. Shoot, nothing says AJ couldn't take Jones and lay in the lane and Caleb take Wideman? I just think Purdue starts out with Caleb on Jones...but you know we don't see the kind of film Matt does nor practice... I would love to see the practices and understand before hand what Purdue wants to do rather than just watch the game... :)

What if Caleb is scoring at the FT line against Butler...Butler has more match-up problems than Purdue and less room for error...
 
dude is averaging 5.4 assists a game. You can't just throw some 6'10 frosh on him and expect good things. Maybe Biggie will surprise me with his PnR defense, but that's not usually a strength of freshman. You can put caleb on chabraz and then put some length with Vince or KS on Rosie and just stay in front of him and pester him and have more experience playing PnR. JMHO of course, I'm sure CMP has watched the tape.
 
Davis will guard the best the opposite team has to offer at the 1-3 spots most of the season (except IU with Ferrell). Swanigan will be fine defending and he hasn't shown, at this point, a propensity to foul away from the basket. The backside help defense will rotate well enough not to allow a bounce pass when Hammons/Haas help on the drive. My guess is we will probably see a lot more of AJ who is able to guard away from the hoop better and Haas and Swanigan guarding the paint more.
 
Davis will guard the best the opposite team has to offer at the 1-3 spots most of the season (except IU with Ferrell). Swanigan will be fine defending and he hasn't shown, at this point, a propensity to foul away from the basket. The backside help defense will rotate well enough not to allow a bounce pass when Hammons/Haas help on the drive. My guess is we will probably see a lot more of AJ who is able to guard away from the hoop better and Haas and Swanigan guarding the paint more.

I could see swanigan on Chabraz (when martin is on bench). But when Martin and Wideman are both in game...who does Swanigan guard? Would you rather have Swanigan on Martin or on Jones? I choose Jones although it is still hard to argue TopSecrets concerns.
 
Davis will guard the best the opposite team has to offer at the 1-3 spots most of the season (except IU with Ferrell). Swanigan will be fine defending and he hasn't shown, at this point, a propensity to foul away from the basket. The backside help defense will rotate well enough not to allow a bounce pass when Hammons/Haas help on the drive. My guess is we will probably see a lot more of AJ who is able to guard away from the hoop better and Haas and Swanigan guarding the paint more.

I'm right there with you except I'm not sure Davis can guard the 1. I see him best off the ball adn not supper quick. I see Davis capable of 2-4 more than 1-3 and do think he is a little slower with the brace. Lewis is quick. Like you though...AJ I think will be GREAT this game...if he is shooting normally especially. I look for AJ to continue his power on dunks. Depending on how the quick hands hurt Haas...we shall await to see what happens there. Purdue was hurt by Pitt with the backside bounce many times as Purdue was worried about getting out on shooters. I expect Purdue to be tuned into Butler shooters as well and so I hope you are right about the back side...but you can't guard both...inside and out at teh same time....last thing I want is help defense giving up weakside boards as well... :)
 
I could see swanigan on Chabraz (when martin is on bench). But when Martin and Wideman are both in game...who does Swanigan guard? Would you rather have Swanigan on Martin or on Jones? I choose Jones although it is still hard to argue TopSecrets concerns.

The nice thing about man defense more than a zone is the complete flexibility to adapt to different players...through playing certain ways, how much space needs covered and the ability to switch if the situation calls for it.... I think Butler has more potential problems due to mismatch than Purdue... :)
 
swani can't guard jones. that is a total mismatch.

Bingo. Jones plays a lot bigger than his size. He's only 6'4" 225 pounds. We have some guys that match up better with him than Swanigan. And as others have mentioned, Jones is a smart player. He will get Swanigan in trouble with fouls no problem.
 
Bingo. Jones plays a lot bigger than his size. He's only 6'4" 225 pounds. We have some guys that match up better with him than Swanigan. And as others have mentioned, Jones is a smart player. He will get Swanigan in trouble with fouls no problem.
Has Biggie been in any kind of foul trouble yet this year?
 
The question isn't whether Swanigan can guard Jones away from the basket. The question is whether he needs to.
there you have it...or at least in my mind. Does anyone need to guard Jones away from the basket? Does anyone need to leave their feet to guard Jones..other than the help behind the initial defender to block his shot without fouling? In my ignorance I'm not sure I have ever seen Jones score away from the basket other than a FT? Now, will the refs bail Jones out?
 
How many senior all-conference forwards has he guarded?

Have you seen Jones play? He's a lot to handle.

Jones has one really unusual playing style and I'm not sure i have ever witnessed a similar player. His actual results are baffling when you watch him play. He is a winner...plain and simple, but I can't recall him every being a threat on the perimeter. Haas has about 10 inches on him and Aj has about 8 inches on him as long as his defender doesn't do anymore than hold some position space for Hammons, Haas or Swanigan to help....but then again he is a winner and it is not an accident...
 
I don't know. How many players like Biggie has he gone up against?

I don't get why people are so defensive about this. Have you guys seen him play? He's as veteran as a veteran can get. He's a very unique player. And he's shown year after year to be a great player.

Swanigan has been a great addition. However, he has shown this year to get lost on defense - is it something I put down as a big negative on him? No. He's a freshman big guy - it's the toughest position to acclimate to.

Anytime you have an all-conference veteran going against a true freshman in the 2nd month of the season, I'd almost always put the advantage to the vet. And Jones is a very unique player at that.

It'd be a tough match-up for Swanigan and that's no knock on Swanigan. It's a compliment to Jones.
 
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I don't get why people are so defensive about this. Have you guys seen him play? He's as veteran as a veteran can get. He's a very unique player. And he's shown year after year to be a great player.

Swanigan has been a great addition. However, he has shown this year to get lost on defense - is it something I put down as a big negative on him? No. He's a freshman big guy - it's the toughest position to acclimate to.

Anytime you have an all-conference veteran going against a true freshman in the 2nd month of the season, I'd almost always put the advantage to the vet. And Jones is a very unique player at that.

It'd be a tough match-up for Swanigan and that's no knock on Swanigan. It's a compliment to Jones.

Ibodel - agree with all you say re Jones. He is a tough matchup for anyone on Purdue. How does Jones score most of his points? In close? And the free-throw line? That is why I am hesitant to put RayDay on him. Vince may be better option. I still fear Vince doesnt have the physical muscle to keep in in check. i think Jones is the leading rebounder for Butler (havent checked and could be wrong). That is another reason I thought we could put somebody taller, stronger (or as strong), and aggressive rebounder to keep Jones at bay. Yes, maybe he will foul out in 5 mins. But that was my logic....for better or worse.

And to a different poster - completely agree re the matchup nightmares we cause Butler on the other side! Think of them doing this 'analysis' for who they are guarding. Guess thats why we see so much zone!
 
there you have it...or at least in my mind. Does anyone need to guard Jones away from the basket? Does anyone need to leave their feet to guard Jones..other than the help behind the initial defender to block his shot without fouling? In my ignorance I'm not sure I have ever seen Jones score away from the basket other than a FT? Now, will the refs bail Jones out?
Let's say you see swani sagging on rosie. now you rotate 3 other players away and bring Dunham over. Rosie screens Dunham's man off of him and Swani is where? Not chashing him over the top of the screen. Boom Dunham scores 150 points. No thanks. Now let's adjust and bring Biggie up, now you have the speed problem. You have to have someone who can guard pick and roll. Charredbras is more his speed and size. Maybe Biggie will prove me wrong. I just don't see it.
 
there you have it...or at least in my mind. Does anyone need to guard Jones away from the basket?

Jones plays away from the basket on almost every possession. He plays point when Tyler Lewis is out of the game. He likes to drive and is also a very good assist man. His shot is tricky. If you get a chance, go back and watch the 2nd half of the Tennessee game. He made two or three push shots 10-15 feet from the basket. He can get that shot up in a hurry without a lot of space. Look at the game winning shot at Cincinnati when he had two guys draped all over him.

I would put someone on him who's quick on the perimeter, rather than someone really tall. They don't have to defend a three point shot but they need to limit drives to the basket.
 
Jones plays away from the basket on almost every possession. He plays point when Tyler Lewis is out of the game. He likes to drive and is also a very good assist man. His shot is tricky. If you get a chance, go back and watch the 2nd half of the Tennessee game. He made two or three push shots 10-15 feet from the basket. He can get that shot up in a hurry without a lot of space. Look at the game winning shot at Cincinnati when he had two guys draped all over him.

I would put someone on him who's quick on the perimeter, rather than someone really tall. They don't have to defend a three point shot but they need to limit drives to the basket.

Again, my comment that you quoted was whether anyone needs to guard him away from the basket...not too concerned with him dribbling out there... :)
 
Let's say you see swani sagging on rosie. now you rotate 3 other players away and bring Dunham over. Rosie screens Dunham's man off of him and Swani is where? Not chashing him over the top of the screen. Boom Dunham scores 150 points. No thanks. Now let's adjust and bring Biggie up, now you have the speed problem. You have to have someone who can guard pick and roll. Charredbras is more his speed and size. Maybe Biggie will prove me wrong. I just don't see it.

Is Chrabs more of a threat on the perimeter than Jones? Nobody is going to block the three ball, but contest it with a hand up. Purdue is big and slow on the perimeter. There are always going to be a pick and roll that may not be to Purdue's liking. Biggie does NOT need to foul a man driving to the basket as Haas or Hammons can take him when beat...But Biggie does need to cover their man and board. Defense on Jones will probably be teh help and not the iniitial defense. I think Matt lives with Butler getting what they do inside as long as Purdue covers the three ball as well as they can. No question butler will try to exploit quickness and Purdue will try to exploit size adn it comes down to who executes the best. I look for AJ to have a monster game and if he doesn't I'm a little concerned...fun thinking about options though...

Now, I do not know enough about Butler to know the players that are good inbetween the basket and arc.
 
I don't get why people are so defensive about this. Have you guys seen him play? He's as veteran as a veteran can get. He's a very unique player. And he's shown year after year to be a great player.

Swanigan has been a great addition. However, he has shown this year to get lost on defense - is it something I put down as a big negative on him? No. He's a freshman big guy - it's the toughest position to acclimate to.

Anytime you have an all-conference veteran going against a true freshman in the 2nd month of the season, I'd almost always put the advantage to the vet. And Jones is a very unique player at that.

It'd be a tough match-up for Swanigan and that's no knock on Swanigan. It's a compliment to Jones.
How is that being defensive? Its a question. How many players like Biggie has Jones gone up against? He is not a threat from 3. He has an old man type game. He's not the fastest player, but he's smart. Biggie is just that...big. He's hard to get around with his girth and decent quickness. He also has a few inches on him, so he doesn't have to play in his jersey. It looks like Jones has been able to over power most of the guys who have tried to d him up this year. Is that the case?
 
This is a game of mismatches on both sides. Ray is going to be bigger and stronger than any of Butler's backcourt. Swanigan will low post all the players who try to guard him. At the same time with our traditional lineup, Butler is quicker and Painter teams have always seemed to struggle against a 1-3-1 zone which is what NW always ran under Carmody.

Bottom line though is Purdue goes legitimately 9 players deep and Butler only about 7. It's going to be an interesting difference in styles and one that should prepare Purdue well for the B1G teams that play small ball.

Hopefully we won't see Bo Boroski this year and if we do all bets are off!
 
How is that being defensive? Its a question. How many players like Biggie has Jones gone up against? He is not a threat from 3. He has an old man type game. He's not the fastest player, but he's smart. Biggie is just that...big. He's hard to get around with his girth and decent quickness. He also has a few inches on him, so he doesn't have to play in his jersey. It looks like Jones has been able to over power most of the guys who have tried to d him up this year. Is that the case?

But I think that's where Swanigan has issues. Swanigan finds himself out of position/loses track of things defensively still - again, not a downer on him, just that he has room to grow there. With that, Swanigan is bigger than him, but Jones is also very crafty. That's why I think you need sound defensive players going up against him.

That being said, I would think we'd see a mix of guys guard him and I wouldn't be surprised to see Swanigan for some of that time.

Painter's very good at matching up guys and having strategies. Obviously, strategies only take you so far and you have to execute (our games against IU were great examples of a great strategy executed greatly).

My worry in this game is I don't know if Purdue's defense is as good as it is statistically. We had some issues with Pitt getting into the lane and scoring against us in the first half. We have to keep our interior as an advantage for ourselves. As soon as Butler starts having luck inside, it's going to open up 3s for them, which is what they'd love.

In the second half against Pitt, we did a much better job. AJ slowly awakened and awakened big time in that game. We need our big guys to show up tomorrow for the whole game. As I said before, it's easy to get a bit softer playing the teams we've been playing since Pitt. The big guys don't have to work as hard to get what they want. Butler may not be huge, but they're a scrappy and tough team.
 
This is a game of mismatches on both sides. Ray is going to be bigger and stronger than any of Butler's backcourt. Swanigan will low post all the players who try to guard him. At the same time with our traditional lineup, Butler is quicker and Painter teams have always seemed to struggle against a 1-3-1 zone which is what NW always ran under Carmody.

Bottom line though is Purdue goes legitimately 9 players deep and Butler only about 7. It's going to be an interesting difference in styles and one that should prepare Purdue well for the B1G teams that play small ball.

Hopefully we won't see Bo Boroski this year and if we do all bets are off!

Agreed. Whether we win or not, it will be great prep for the upcoming Big Ten schedule. Butler is a very solid team.
 
This is a game of mismatches on both sides. Ray is going to be bigger and stronger than any of Butler's backcourt. Swanigan will low post all the players who try to guard him. At the same time with our traditional lineup, Butler is quicker and Painter teams have always seemed to struggle against a 1-3-1 zone which is what NW always ran under Carmody.

Bottom line though is Purdue goes legitimately 9 players deep and Butler only about 7. It's going to be an interesting difference in styles and one that should prepare Purdue well for the B1G teams that play small ball.

Hopefully we won't see Bo Boroski this year and if we do all bets are off!
I'm not sure I've seen Butler play a 1-3-1 for many years, but admit I've missed some games. That being said I think I would love to see a 1-3-1 to play against with Purdue's length down on the baseline
 
This game more than any game on the schedule makes me the most nervous. Why? We've been cursed against Butler and Xavier for the last 10 years. Ever since Brad Stephens was there, Butler has been sprinkled with fairy dust. It seems every time we play them, one of Purdue's key players has an abysmal game or gets in early foul trouble, and/or one of their 4's has a career game from the perimeter, and/or their guards make circus shots on drives........... In other words, as a fan, I'm paranoid about Butler. They are totally "in my head".

On paper, Purdue has some imposing advantages. Butler has weapons for sure. One that I believe Purdue can/will neutralize is Jones. He makes his entire living on crafty junk points around the hoop. Purdue size, and most importantly depth of size, is going to a huge problem for him. In past games, if Landry, JJ, Sandi got in foul trouble, which they did, guys like him just ate Purdue up.

Then there is Dunham. He is Gordon Heyward 2.0 in so many ways. As much as I like Purdue's guys, I think he will be the best player on the court. I also think he will play in the NBA. Ray will clearly get the call, and I believe Butler will get Dunham the ball early and have him drive in hopes of getting Ray in quick foul trouble because of the new way that Refs are calling games. Dunham's mid-game makes me nervous. He doesn't have to get all the way to the hoop (where the towers await) to score. Hopefully Purdue's new approach to sag a bit on perimeter players and force them to the wings and baseline will help keep Dunham out of the lane. I just hope that Ray doesn't get over-anxious and revert to the in-your-grill approach and get 2 early fouls.

To me, the entire key to the game is to make sure that Martin, Wideman, Lewis, or some guy who has not scored more than 4 points in a game doesn't go off. To me, this has been the Butler fairy dust effect against Purdue recently. I honestly believe that 2 of these guys have to play great for Butler to win because I have a difficult time seeing Jones having a huge game. If Dunham is held to his average, Purdue wins. Even if one of the "other" players goes off, Jones is going to have hit his averages for them to have a chance unless Purdue just stinks it up on offense and can't hit a shot. But Butler has not shown that they are as good defensively as they have been in the past....so it's hard to see Purdue completely tanking simply because they can pound it inside better than any team in college this year.

So you can see that rationally I can completely convince myself that Purdue should/will win, and should/would win 8 out of 10, or something like that. But until it happens, I fear the worst, and can only hope for the best.
 
I'm not sure I've seen Butler play a 1-3-1 for many years, but admit I've missed some games. That being said I think I would love to see a 1-3-1 to play against with Purdue's length down on the baseline
I,could be wrong but I thought they were in a 1-3-1 in their last game.
 
You could be right. I thought I would catch it after seeing Purdue at mackey on ESPN but it wasn't on ESPN and so no replay for me. So, I don't know. i do know he Holtsman played for Patterson at Taylor a long time coach there since maybe 1980 or so until maybe 5 or so year ago. I think Paterson was a heavy man coach and then thought I read somewhere that he knew a longtime asst at teh Cuse and started toying with the 2-3. I think Purdue's length would kill a 131, but have seen that D surprise me a few times in how teams sometimes struggle...
 
Do not get me wrong - Butler has a very good team, but I am not too worried about what they bring. Purdue is going to kick A** and win this game.

All the national pundits appear to think PU has not played anyone as of yet. Yet at the same token many they consider better than PU have not played anyone either. I do not know what they have been watching but it would appear to not be what I have seen.

I am not currently convinced they (PU) are world beaters as of yet, but damn they are certainly for real. IMHO Butler has more issues matching up with PU that PU has with matching up with them.
 
PJ-Lewis
Ray-Jones
Vince-Dunham
Chabraz/Martin-Swanigan
Wideman-Hammons/Haas
Assuming line-ups of Lewis/Dunham/Jones/Chrab'z/Wideman vs. Purdue's starting 5, I put PJ on Lewis, Davis on Dunham, Vince on Jones, Swanigan on Chrab'z, and Haas on Wideman. The thing about Dunham is that he is very crafty and gets to the line a lot where he is almost automatic, so I want to guard him with Davis, who is best on the team at guarding without fouling. I'm hoping that Vince can bother Jones with his length. The thing about Jones is that he gets his push runner off very quickly, sort of like Denzel Valentine, so Edwards will need to be ready for it. A lot of his shots have low release points, but are hard to anticipate. The help D will need to be patient, since Jones is a great passer. I think that Chrab'z is a good matchup for Swanigan. He can't be left open, but he isn't super quick. Wideman will make you pay if left open, but he allows Haas and Hammons to play near the rim.

I suspect that Butler will try to neutralize Purdue's size advantage by going small with Martin at the 4. When they do, they will create a mismatch against Swanigan, but they will create major matchup issues for themselves at the other end of the court. In this case, I think that Swanigan might have to guard Jones and give him a big cushion, because I just don't see Swanigan chasing Dunham or Martin around the court.
 
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