They played a great game. I hope this loss is a learning experience for us this year. I'd rather have it now than in March. Great game Biggie, unfortunately not much else showed up tonight.
Props to Butler
- Thread starter punaj
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Lived and died with Swanigan. Helluva game, but also killed us with turnovers. Butler as a team had 1 more turnover than Swanigan had in the game.
Give respect where it's due. They played the better game, they were the aggressors and deserved to win.
I think it's a good lesson for us. We need to feed the post, but we are too predicable with it and rely on it too much. So it's too easy to plan for. Good coaching by the Butler staff.
I love me some Isaac Haas, but would not mind if we started AJ from here on out. His defense is so good, we need him on the floor as much as possible. He affects so many shots (even the ones he doesn't block). Also, his reaction time is just a level above Haas which I think helps also on the offensive end. No knock on Haas, just being honest.
Good summaries by you guys.Purdue didn't deserve to win this one.Hopefully,they will learn from this and get better.
Agreed on Hammons. Haas has improved a lot, but AJ is a difference maker on defense and makes teams adjust what they are doing.
However, Hammons is part of his own problem. His second foul was dumb. This is why Painter doesn't want him starting is that he gets into foul trouble on his own way too easily. He didn't have a foul in the entire second half. Hammons needs to avoid the lapses. It's one thing to pick up your second foul on a tough defensive play. But the bunnies that he commits are killer.
I hear ya and agree the 2nd foul was dumb, but this is where, IMO, we negate our advantage. We basically don't use our depth fully because 1 guy is in foul trouble? The guy that doesn't start? The reason our centers are so effective is they can go full intensity for a few minutes and bring a fresh guy in. Eventually, we wear other teams down.
So, instead, we play the traditional foul situation and take AJ out and save him for the 2nd half. I know Haas has improved his conditioning, but his quality of play dropped considerably playing so many minutes straight. This led to his (Haas) ineffective play and with AJ out, we had sub-par center play that first half. What's the point of being so conservative with our center foul situation if we have depth? To your point, AJ didn't pick up any more fouls in the game. How many fouls did Issac have remaining? So, we basically shot ourselves in the foot with that substitution pattern in my opinion.
As the OP I need to give props to Davis for basically shutting out the big east leading scorer. Sorry I left that out of the original post.
There were good spots in this game but we played the worst game of the year, played from behind for longer than ever tonight, and still had a chance to win. I still love this Boiler team's potential.
There were good spots in this game but we played the worst game of the year, played from behind for longer than ever tonight, and still had a chance to win. I still love this Boiler team's potential.
Like klmLB said, they won the game with the way they collapsed on our big guys. We weren't smart in the way we handled that.
Butler also played harder, came up with a ton of second chance balls, we couldn't buy a shot for a while, and our sloppy passing gets us by Youngstown State, but not Butler.
I think this was a critical game for us, we either learn from it, or we end up a 5 seed (or worse) this spring. I'm almost glad we didn't come back to win, afraid we wouldn't have taken the loss to heart to correct the problems.
Butler also played harder, came up with a ton of second chance balls, we couldn't buy a shot for a while, and our sloppy passing gets us by Youngstown State, but not Butler.
I think this was a critical game for us, we either learn from it, or we end up a 5 seed (or worse) this spring. I'm almost glad we didn't come back to win, afraid we wouldn't have taken the loss to heart to correct the problems.
The entire game I thought, "Crap, this is a blueprint on how to beat Purdue" ... Maybe so but it's also how CMP teaches this team how not to get flustered and get beat.
I agree in part here. It was so early in the half, you had to sit AJH......but maybe you bring him back and play some more in the first half. Even with that, Purdue was only down four at the break. AJH just has to play a little smarter.....his first foul was avoidable too.
In the end, Butler just outplayed Purdue.....with all of that, the Boilers had the ball with a chance to tie in the last minute.
Glass half full or half empty?
Adversity and dealing with it is a great test of life.
I totally agree. AJ should be starting. Others have asked that same question. Matt needs to start A from here on out. I like Haas too.. But he seems to get rattled and is still young. AJ is the Senior vet.
I think the reason Hammons didn't return in the first half was because while our play did drop off after Haas had played significant minutes, it was still a max 4 point game. So in that situation, you don't really need to put in your guy with 2 fouls if you aren't really in a bad situation.
And I think with regards to fouls, I wish our big guys would be a bit more aggressive in general. Like I said, if Hammons picks up his 2nd foul with a hard defensive foul - ok. Picking it up on a rebound that you weren't really going to get or were in a position to get - just dumb. But knowing we have a fully capable back-up center, I know Haas gets in a sticky situation with his size sometimes, but our big guys need to be more aggressive. It's almost crazy to me that between Haas, Hammons and Swanigan - they combined for 6 fouls! Swanigan and Hammons combined for 3! That's just crazy to me.
I don't want to encourage stupid fouls but going stronger to the basket - and getting a charge every now and then - fine by me - instead of fadeaways. One possession, AJ got the ball and literally stood there and held the ball with his back to the basket for almost 2 seconds. It resulted in a defensive disruption. But why are you sitting there eyeing your competition when you are the bigger and better than them!?
People complained that the refs let the play in the pain be physical. I mean, we are typically a more aggressive/physical team than other teams and usually complain if teams play it close. Are we getting soft here!? Our guys didn't respond and adjust their play. They continued to play soft inside.
If we have a size advantage, we have to play like it.
I have to hand it to Butler, they seem to just keep doing their thing. I get sick of hearing about them, but their success (and my residence in Indy) kind of explain that.
All in all, we played poorly (except for Swanigan and Hammons, both of whom had their struggles in ways today, as well), and still were right there at the end - including fighting back from a big deficit against a solid team, while playing in an, essentially, road game environment.
This team was never going to "run the table", and an early loss is better than a tournament loss. I do get sick of laying eggs every year in Indy. ...I'm sure, next year, when we draw Notre Dame, they'll be flying high and Butler will be "rebuilding" again
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All in all, we played poorly (except for Swanigan and Hammons, both of whom had their struggles in ways today, as well), and still were right there at the end - including fighting back from a big deficit against a solid team, while playing in an, essentially, road game environment.
This team was never going to "run the table", and an early loss is better than a tournament loss. I do get sick of laying eggs every year in Indy. ...I'm sure, next year, when we draw Notre Dame, they'll be flying high and Butler will be "rebuilding" again
.That's my point exactly. We took AJ out and Haas was ineffective (either was tired or passive) - yet we were still pounding the ball to him. Either leave Haas in and work the offense through another focal point (Biggie?) or put in a 5 who will be more aggressive/effective. My only problem is we did neither. People want to say we're only down 4, but look at the production we had from "the best center position in basketball". We had a negative output in the first half compared to Butler's output at the 5. We should have dominated that spot ... and part of the reason was we conceded that significant time period of the game.
I mean, I agree to an extent. I would not have put Hammons back in. Knowing Haas will only be able to cover so much, you don't want Hammons picking up his 3rd foul. But the second half is where we lost the game. We had just as many turnovers in the second half as we had in the first half. We didn't clean up anything. And kudos to Butler - they continued their intensity.
Butler player great. Took us out of everything.
We simply have to have AJ in the starting lineup in games like this.
I also agree that he should've seen more time. Our inside/out only works when the inside part is working. Butler forced Haas to make quick decisions and he reverted to last years form.
Great game plan and the silly fouls AJ had in the first half made it lethal.
Overall Butler wanted it more and dictated the game. Congrats to them.
We simply have to have AJ in the starting lineup in games like this.
I also agree that he should've seen more time. Our inside/out only works when the inside part is working. Butler forced Haas to make quick decisions and he reverted to last years form.
Great game plan and the silly fouls AJ had in the first half made it lethal.
Overall Butler wanted it more and dictated the game. Congrats to them.
I don't think Painter wants to play them as a 50/50 split. Hammons forced the issue today.
The reason Haas is starting has a lot to do with fouls and not knowing how a game will be called. Who cares who starts? Hammons needs to make sure he stays in the game. He played most of the 2nd half. He's who Painter wants to play, but Hammons needs to keep himself out on the court.
Kudos to Butler indeed.
I'm not concerned about a specific substitution or who starts or not. My beef is AJH is affecting the game in a much greater way than anyone on our team and should play more minutes. He played only 21 minutes in a game in which he had only 2 fouls. He recorded 5 blocks and probably affected a dozen other shots in that time. Think about that. It's incredible. Having him on the floor more would limit what opposing offenses are able to accomplish and the effectiveness of our team.
This. There have been stretches in every game this year where the opponent worked harder, wanted it more. The Boilers learned tonight that you can't let that continue to happen if they want that special season.
...I'm sure, next year, when we draw Notre Dame, they'll be flying high and Butler will be "rebuilding" again
Since 2006-07, Butler has missed the NCAA tournament twice. It was the two previous seasons that Butler defeated Purdue in this event.
But that's like looking at a box score and making a comment without knowing the context. AJ's 2 fouls were in the first 10 minutes or so of the first half. Of course he was going to take a seat on the bench. Hammons played most of the second half. If he didn't get into foul trouble, he probably would have played around 30 minutes.
If you think Painter got to play Hammons as much as he wanted to today, you're crazy.
The Character of this team will be shown come Tues. Nite, against Vandy, did they get humbled and had their eyes opened or do they still think they can just show up and win. IMHO, I think this got their attention and I really believe they will play inspired and come up with a great effort and (W) against Vanderbilt. Finals are in the rear view mirror, let's get back to the business of winning. Boiler Up and Hammer It Down!!
IMO the refs gave the game to Butler. In the 1st half there were more fouls on Purdue and that threw off our game. AJ's 1st foul was doubtful and picking up 2 in the 1st half set the tone. It seemed like we were called for riding their players, but Caleb did not get 1 call for being ridden.
The turning point was the foul on Haas, when the refs went to the tape to see if it was flagrant. Instead they saw the Butler player throw himself into Haas' arm to look like Haas hit him. After seeing they were duped, the refs were better, but unfortunately there was too big a lead. It was nice to see Purdue come back though.
The turning point was the foul on Haas, when the refs went to the tape to see if it was flagrant. Instead they saw the Butler player throw himself into Haas' arm to look like Haas hit him. After seeing they were duped, the refs were better, but unfortunately there was too big a lead. It was nice to see Purdue come back though.
This.
Losing in Indy sucks, but that happens to us every year... The real issue is whether Purdue has the capacity to learn from this and understand WHY Butler was so effective.
I like this post a lot. I'd just like to add that a lot of games against the better teams might heavily rely on how the game is officiated. Purdue's bread and butter is obviously the post play. A tighter called game (and it's supposed to be this year), will benefit them. For example, when Haas's main shot is the hook shot and your getting walked into and bumped while in the middle of the shot, it should be a foul, at least for this year. Towards to end of the game, on a play where Travis was called for a foul on Haas (which Travis couldn't believe, by the way), the analyst, Crispin, said Travis did everything right up to the point where he walked into Hass as he was shooting. But guess what? I noticed Travis doing that in the first half and not being called for it.
I also believe that the refs treat Butler as one of the darlings of the NCAA, much like Duke. Butler, the small, Cinderella school that makes deep runs into the tournament. They play a much more physical, scrappy defense than most teams play (like Purdue used to play back in the day), but with the new rules, they should be called for many more fouls with the contact. However, I just don't see this happening. I think the refs just chalk it up to them being this scrappy, hard playing, Cinderella team. Their downfall will be in games when the refs call a tight game, although I'm not sure how often that will happen with them.
Yup. Dejavu from last season. Starting haas against cupcakes sets us back again. Hammons is the starter period.
I assumed his point was that Purdue has to face a really good opponent every year in the event. Purdue likely faced Butler's two weakest teams this past decade in December 2011 and 2013.
Hammans has been playing more minutes than Haas (except vs. New Mexico when Haas had a killer game). Hammons is about to surpass Haas in minutes played and has played 2 fewer games than Haas.
It's not about who starts.
I get that, but I do think that Painter could rely a bit more on Haas as an insurance policy and be more aggressive in getting Hammons minutes earlier in games. Haas is probably ahead of where Hammons was as a sophomore, but Hammons is the best player on the team, IMO, right now.
If Purdue wants to make it to a FF, they better figure out how to play in one of those big sucky arenas.
TIC....but it does seem like the Boilers have struggled at large venues in the past.
well said. Isaac has improved a lot since last year, but AJ can affect both sides with the ball.
Hammons was put in less than three minutes into the game. I assume he only sat in the first half because of fouls.
He was in less than two minutes into the second half. He played almost the rest of the game from there, sitting mainly only when Purdue started making offensive/defensive substitutions at the end.
He was in the game the entire time that Butler's lead blew up to 16 points. Butler led by 16 on four different occasions and Hammons was on the floor the entire time. It's not like he was a game changer during that rather lengthy sequence.
Yeah, the reason he's not starting is if the refs call the game close, Isaac will pick up a quick foul, not AJ. It's not like AJ is sitting on the bench until halfway through the game.
