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OT: Net Neutrality

it is an absurd question, because you asked that of me. never have I taken a position that favors monopolies.

Again, where are the monopolies? My point is clear: Address those market issues, but not by feeding more of the insatiable beast that has become the federal government. But, NN was never going to create competition.

You continue to highlight my point: too many people think government is the answer. It is not.
1. how do you plan to address those market issues without government intervention, mr smartypants

2. why exactly do you have issue with NN. scrapping it does nothing for "lack of competition" and guarantees consumers will be exploited more by existing monopolies.
 
1. how do you plan to address those market issues without government intervention, mr smartypants

2. why exactly do you have issue with NN. scrapping it does nothing for "lack of competition" and guarantees consumers will be exploited more by existing monopolies.

1. which market issues? where? And why do you insist only the government can help you? Furthermore, why be so full of anger? (Ex: "mr smartypants")

2. I would challenge you again, to answer the question. If NN existed for many years (as, I believe, you argued before), then why have the 2015 legislation?
 
it is an absurd question, because you asked that of me. never have I taken a position that favors monopolies.

Again, where are the monopolies? My point is clear: Address those market issues, but not by feeding more of the insatiable beast that has become the federal government. But, NN was never going to create competition.

You continue to highlight my point: too many people think government is the answer. It is not.

i already listed my personal monopoly examples throughout IN. it is basically like a public utility (1 option like water, sewage, electric etc), except run by the few big corps (with a small % of the old dsl providers sprinkled in). the corps along with local governments come up with ridiculous bureaucratic bills to stifle competition.

for cable, i now have about 10 options.
but if i were my current internet ATT, i would simply restrict my internet access, and force me to sign back up for cable through them again (option being cable via ATT, or no cable at all).

now i'm curious... how many internet providers do you have available?!
if you have lived in other areas, have you always had numerous choices?

if you do not want monopolies as you say, how would the current administration go about eliminating the long, existing problem for consumers?
the current laws do not seem to be that effective in many places.
and with a zero regulation-complete free market, a monopoly/duopoly issue would be allowed as a possible outcome.


here are some other random city examples in recent years, and how most of the consumers have a predetermined single option (and some that actually had a whopping 2 options, still became 1 again after mergers!)
minneapolis, la, boston:

mpls_cablecompetition_watermarked.jpg


la_cablecompetition_watermarked.jpg


bos_cablecompetition_watermarked.jpg
 
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i already listed my personal monopoly examples throughout IN. it is basically like a public utility (1 option like water, sewage, electric etc), except run by the few big corps (with a small % of the old dsl providers sprinkled in). the corps along with local governments come up with ridiculous bureaucratic bills to stifle competition.

for cable, i now have about 10 options. but if i were my current provider ATT, i would simply restrict my internet access, and force me to sign back up for cable through them again (option being cable via ATT, or no cable at all).

now i'm curious... how many provider choices do you have available?! if you have lived in other areas, have you always had numerous choices?

if you do not want monopolies as you say, how would the current administration go about eliminating the long, existing problem for consumers?
the current laws do not seem to be that effective in many places.
and with a zero regulation-complete free market, a monopoly/duopoly issue would be allowed as a possible outcome.


here are some other random city examples in recent years, and how most of the consumers have a predetermined single option (and some that actually had a whopping 2 options, still became 1 again after mergers!)
minneapolis, la, boston:

That's good information. It's also interesting.

I genuinely don't recall you listing your examples throughout IN.

What's more, I don't know all the zip codes in the Minn/SP area, but, as I go through some of the M/SP zips, broadbandnow.com lists 100% (or near 100%) coverage for at least 2 DSL/cable providers, as well as other options. Now, you might not LIKE those options, and I get that. But the solution isn't feeding the government beast.

But here's another point that hasn't been address, and that's this issue of monopolies. That term doesn't mean what it means in the context of the way it's being thrown around this thread. Set aside your M/SP example for a moment. Just because one business chooses to serve a particular market, that doesn't mean it has a monopoly. Consider 'the-middle-of-nowhere, IN'. That's not a pejorative, just a description. I like small towns. But, back to the point. Just because one gas station serves that market doesn't make it a monopoly. Same with a drug store, grocery store, etc. Now, I get it, that internet service is a bit different. But, this idea that a government is going to force companies to serve a market doesn't sit well with me, and shouldn't for any other freedom loving American.

Nor should we have LAWS that say a particular business MUST SERVE an area. And, I'm disappointed to see that's where we've arrived . . . laws, forcing a business to serve a particular market.

You complain about "ridiculous bureaucratic bills to stifle competition", yet, your sole solution is . . . more bureaucratic bills. And, who approves these mergers? Any guess?

If we must involve government, (which, we mustn't) why not have government work with private business and localities to offer more options?

That's a far cry from creating some government monstrosity, which will only grow bigger and bigger, and grow far beyond the original intent, encroaching on more and more people, all in the name of "helping" them.
 
Real people didn’t suffer when Obamacare was passed? I remember “if you like your doctor you can keep you doctor”.
I'm a real person. I have been self employed for 30 years. Before Obamacare, I was paying about $800 a month for insurance for a family of four with a $500 deductible. Starting in 2018, I will be paying almost $1400 a month for just me and my wife with a $6000 deductible. I work in health care and I can tell you that Obamacare is a total disaster for consumers. It may provide health coverage, but it does not provide health care. The deductibles are so high that people do not seek care because the cannot afford the deductible. Nine years ago I could get an individual health care policy. Those are no longer available. I am now on Obamacare because it is my only choice. The health care industry in our country is a total mess. Wish I had a good answer but I don't.
 
I'm a real person. I have been self employed for 30 years. Before Obamacare, I was paying about $800 a month for insurance for a family of four with a $500 deductible. Starting in 2018, I will be paying almost $1400 a month for just me and my wife with a $6000 deductible. I work in health care and I can tell you that Obamacare is a total disaster for consumers. It may provide health coverage, but it does not provide health care. The deductibles are so high that people do not seek care because the cannot afford the deductible. Nine years ago I could get an individual health care policy. Those are no longer available. I am now on Obamacare because it is my only choice. The health care industry in our country is a total mess. Wish I had a good answer but I don't.
just curious. 16 years ago, how much were you paying. and what age range are you.
 
NN has always been the default until ISP seeing opportunities to make more money wanted to overturn it. The Title II regulations from 2015 to large extent put rules in place to protect the status quo (i.e. net neutrality). What Ajit Pai just did was remove those protections. We survived 20 years because we had net neutrality those 20 years.

- Imagine a public beach everyone has been going to forever.
- One day, one owners with land, buys out several other landowners next to the beach, decide they want to block public access to the beach except if you pay them.
-The city commision then makes a rule that the beach must remains public.
- The next commissioner now comes around and makes a new rule that scraps the previous commision's rule using silly excuses like regulations bad, these new rules will increase public access to the beach? (like wtf!!)
- NewPalboiler then defends the new commissioners move by making a silly argument like "how did we survive 20 years".
What was this “one day” or event in 2015 that required the new regulation?

How will I be worse off now than I was in 2015 before the regulation?
 
I'm a real person. I have been self employed for 30 years. Before Obamacare, I was paying about $800 a month for insurance for a family of four with a $500 deductible. Starting in 2018, I will be paying almost $1400 a month for just me and my wife with a $6000 deductible. I work in health care and I can tell you that Obamacare is a total disaster for consumers. It may provide health coverage, but it does not provide health care. The deductibles are so high that people do not seek care because the cannot afford the deductible. Nine years ago I could get an individual health care policy. Those are no longer available. I am now on Obamacare because it is my only choice. The health care industry in our country is a total mess. Wish I had a good answer but I don't.
Have you looked into a co-op?
 
2. why exactly do you have issue with NN. scrapping it does nothing for "lack of competition" and guarantees consumers will be exploited more by existing monopolies.
I'm in wait-and-see mode. But how does eliminating NN guarantee we will be exploited?
 
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just curious. 16 years ago, how much were you paying. and what age range are you.
Don't recall that far back, I am 58 now. Health insurance cost was never much of an issue for us until about 5-6 years ago. It is the single biggest factor keeping me from retiring early.
 
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Don't recall that far back, I am 58 now. Health insurance cost was never much of an issue for us until about 5-6 years ago. It is the single biggest factor keeping me from retiring early.
so let's analyze. you basically belong to the sickest pool not covered by medicare (i.e. late 50s, early 60s). If we average the total healthcare spending for people in your age group, accross the entire country, conservatively it is well > $10K per person per year. So for 2 persons, that's > 20k a year. That means if we take a cohort of people your age group and split their total healthcost amongst all of you, each of will end up paying more than $10k a person. If your entire insurance cost is less than that, it means on average someone like you still is still getting a deal and getting subsidized by those of us that are younger and on average cost less. Your problem should be with the cost of healthcare in the US, not with Obamacare. Also, If over the last 20 years, you have been shopping in the individual market, I am sure under Obamacare won't be the first time your total insurance cost doubled. Healthcare has always been growing much faster than inflation. Obamacare didn't start that or accelerate it. It's just a convenient policy to blame for all that is imperfect about our healthcare.

I don't have a good solution to solving why healthcare cost so much. I truly empathize with your family and the financial predicament it puts you. Almost no-one except the super rich can truly always afford the cost of healthcare without some form of cost-sharing with others. I understand why you feel the need to lash out, but your anger is misplaced. Obamacare isn't the problem.
 
so let's analyze. you basically belong to the sickest pool not covered by medicare (i.e. late 50s, early 60s). If we average the total healthcare spending for people in your age group, accross the entire country, conservatively it is well > $10K per person per year. So for 2 persons, that's > 20k a year. That means if we take a cohort of people your age group and split their total healthcost amongst all of you, each of will end up paying more than $10k a person. If your entire insurance cost is less than that, it means on average someone like you still is still getting a deal and getting subsidized by those of us that are younger and on average cost less. Your problem should be with the cost of healthcare in the US, not with Obamacare. Also, If over the last 20 years, you have been shopping in the individual market, I am sure under Obamacare won't be the first time your total insurance cost doubled. Healthcare has always been growing much faster than inflation. Obamacare didn't start that or accelerate it. It's just a convenient policy to blame for all that is imperfect about our healthcare.

I don't have a good solution to solving why healthcare cost so much. I truly empathize with your family and the financial predicament it puts you. Almost no-one except the super rich can truly always afford the cost of healthcare without some form of cost-sharing with others. I understand why you feel the need to lash out, but your anger is misplaced. Obamacare isn't the problem.

For decades, we've seen "progressives" meddling with health care, promising America they had they answers.

they don't.

Obamacare was supposed to lower premiums, increase access, cover more people, cure global warming (okay, I added that piece of utopia) and cure any countless number of problems with health care.

It doesn't.

It didn't.

It's more expensive.

It's burying insurers. (Which, the cynical among us will posit, that was the goal from the outset.)

You claim "Obamacare ins't the problem." Well, what is? It's had numerous years to show successes. There are none.

This appears to be nothing more than a step on the way to true socialized medicine, in which there's shared misery. No cost savings, no increased access, no improvements, just your typical government foray into ruining almost everything it touches.
 
For decades, we've seen "progressives" meddling with health care, promising America they had they answers.

they don't.

Obamacare was supposed to lower premiums, increase access, cover more people, cure global warming (okay, I added that piece of utopia) and cure any countless number of problems with health care.

It doesn't.

It didn't.

It's more expensive.

It's burying insurers. (Which, the cynical among us will posit, that was the goal from the outset.)

You claim "Obamacare ins't the problem." Well, what is? It's had numerous years to show successes. There are none.

This appears to be nothing more than a step on the way to true socialized medicine, in which there's shared misery. No cost savings, no increased access, no improvements, just your typical government foray into ruining almost everything it touches.
It actually did all three things you listed. It definitely increased access. definitely covered more people. and under it, group insurance had the slowest rates of increase in 2 decades (well not lower premiums, but it did slow it down)
 
It actually did all three things you listed. It definitely increased access. definitely covered more people. and under it, group insurance had the slowest rates of increase in 2 decades (well not lower premiums, but it did slow it down)

Bolllllllsh*t.

Premiums are out of control.

People are being dropped because the system is unsustainable.

Your arguments are ideological, not rational.
 
It actually did all three things you listed. It definitely increased access. definitely covered more people. and under it, group insurance had the slowest rates of increase in 2 decades (well not lower premiums, but it did slow it down)
No one watching the impact it has had nationally thinks it was a success. It was based on a lie -- admitted by its designers -- and the lies continued after it was implemented.

The debate is no longer about whether it was a success. The debate is about how to fix it.
 
No one watching the impact it has had nationally thinks it was a success. It was based on a lie -- admitted by its designers -- and the lies continued after it was implemented.

The debate is no longer about whether it was a success. The debate is about how to fix it.
only the naive think there is anything we can do to lower cost of healthcare insurance without lowering the cost of healthcare. and anyone following the argument intelligently at the time knew it was about expanding coverage with some minimal cost-control measures. If you were naive enough to believe it would do magic, that's up to you
 
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To be clear about Obamacare, it is not just people in my age group who are having issues. I have a staff of 19 women, many of which are single mothers. Every year I have to try and find a plan to cover them. I pay for a portion of their premiums, but they still struggle to pay the remainder of their monthly premium. That is NOT the worst part however. Other than a yearly physical, they put off going to the doctor or getting lab work or radiographic studies themselves because they cannot afford the deductible. The mothers really struggle with taking their kids to the doctor when they are sick. My staff ranges in age from 26-57. The problem is universal for all of them. A few are covered by their husbands insurance, but many are not. As for me and my wife, we continue to enjoy good health. However, at our age, you never know what may happen in the next few years. Thus, my hesitancy to retire sooner rather than later as I expect premiums to do nothing but increase. At age 65, I will be eligible for medicare.
 
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You complain about "ridiculous bureaucratic bills to stifle competition", yet, your sole solution is . . . more bureaucratic bills. And, who approves these mergers? Any guess?

If we must involve government, (which, we mustn't)

not sure who you are referring to, but no, i continue to state i am not in favor of government and increased regulations.

I like both of your ideas - no gov regulations, and also no monopoly. but I come back to the same questions, how do you accomplish both at the same time? how could that be enforced then to avoid consumers having only 1 or limited choices like now?

I'm in wait-and-see mode. But how does eliminating NN guarantee we will be exploited?

true.
but the big corps have been wanting this change, and have worked years to eliminate competition. now some argue it could increase competition. if that's true, then why would the big corps be in favor of it and want to lose even more customers and market share to new competitors? how is that beneficial to already declining profits, and attractive to shareholders? something doesnt seem to add up.
 
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And the deductibles. Yes more people have insurance - they just can't afford to use it.
Exactly. And let's also be clear that those complaining about the tax bill getting rid of the mandate, it isn't forcing people off of insurance it is just removing the requirement that you do have it.
 
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Exactly. And let's also be clear that those complaining about the tax bill getting rid of the mandate, it isn't forcing people off of insurance it is just removing the requirement that you do have it.
Democrats claimed after the fact that it wasn’t a mandate, which would have been ruled unconstitutional and struck down by SCOTUS, but instead was a tax. As such, it is easily removed in a tax bill.

Another tax in that turkey of a bill was the medical device tax. Remember that? That was a great idea.
 
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only the naive think there is anything we can do to lower cost of healthcare insurance without lowering the cost of healthcare. and anyone following the argument intelligently at the time knew it was about expanding coverage with some minimal cost-control measures. If you were naive enough to believe it would do magic, that's up to you
The entire program relied on the naive believing the lies. That was the plan, as later stated by the designers. I see you fell for it. But then you went beyond naive and continue to believe the lies after they were admitted. You have even invented your own incredible lie by saying the program is a success. Neither the supporters or detractors in government believe you. You aren't very good at this. Try harder.
 
I wish this was on the OT board ad not here. This is for basketball, or as the IU guys say, basketbll.

Let's not get too carries away with defending the indefensible. Universal health care sounds like a great idea. Several other countries have pulled it off reasonably well. They do not have the defense speeding we do. Furthermore, you will note that their richest people come to the USA for their medical treatment since we have the best medical treatment in the world, if you can afford it.
 
To be clear about Obamacare, it is not just people in my age group who are having issues. I have a staff of 19 women, many of which are single mothers. Every year I have to try and find a plan to cover them. I pay for a portion of their premiums, but they still struggle to pay the remainder of their monthly premium. That is NOT the worst part however. Other than a yearly physical, they put off going to the doctor or getting lab work or radiographic studies themselves because they cannot afford the deductible. The mothers really struggle with taking their kids to the doctor when they are sick. My staff ranges in age from 26-57. The problem is universal for all of them. A few are covered by their husbands insurance, but many are not. As for me and my wife, we continue to enjoy good health. However, at our age, you never know what may happen in the next few years. Thus, my hesitancy to retire sooner rather than later as I expect premiums to do nothing but increase. At age 65, I will be eligible for medicare.
I don't know what the solution to healthcare cost is. But healthcare in the US is ridiculously expensive
The entire program relied on the naive believing the lies. That was the plan, as later stated by the designers. I see you fell for it. But then you went beyond naive and continue to believe the lies after they were admitted. You have even invented your own incredible lie by saying the program is a success. Neither the supporters or detractors in government believe you. You aren't very good at this. Try harder.

I fell for it? you will hardly find a non-expert more knowledgeable about healthcare economics than me. There are subtle effects deliberately engineered into Obamacare that were not publicly advertised. I knew those. Only idiots who lack basic quantitative skills can think any insurance reform will bring about significant decrease in insurance price. At the end of of the day, healthcare has to be paid for one way or the other. Obamacare was primarily about coverage expansion particularly in the individual market where health insurance was always dysfunctional anyways. But it did also include minimal cost-control effects which did sorta work by slowing down rate of growth. If people want to debate healthcare economics, I am absolutely game. This is a topic I know pretty well. I am not as versed in the data from the last 2 years because I haven't paid as much attention. There are issues I am partisan, not this one. I quote you the facts as they are.
 
What was this “one day” or event in 2015 that required the new regulation?

How will I be worse off now than I was in 2015 before the regulation?
"
Pre-2015: The internet was mostly built with pipes that were neutral. But, some ISP's were starting to misbehave. They'd look inside the pipes, & say, "Nice content you have here. It'd be a shame if we played favorites & took bribes/payoffs to prefer your competitors."

So, to protect the mostly neutral net, in 2015, we formulated into regulations what was the healthy normal behavior that was starting to fall apart.

An analogy would be: Let's say everyone in your house just doesn't crap on the kitchen floor from 1960-2013. Then, you find some instances where, in fact, someone is occasionally crapping on the kitchen floor. So, in 2015, you make it a house rule, with penalties, to not do that. Then, in 2017, "a shit pie" lover takes over and "returns" us to the "pre-2015" status."
 
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"
Pre-2015: The internet was mostly built with pipes that were neutral. But, some ISP's were starting to misbehave. They'd look inside the pipes, & say, "Nice content you have here. It'd be a shame if we played favorites & took bribes/payoffs to prefer your competitors."

So, to protect the mostly neutral net, in 2015, we formulated into regulations what was the healthy normal behavior that was starting to fall apart.

An analogy would be: Let's say everyone in your house just doesn't crap on the kitchen floor from 1960-2013. Then, you find some instances where, in fact, someone is occasionally crapping on the kitchen floor. So, in 2015, you make it a house rule, with penalties, to not do that. Then, in 2017, "a shit pie" lover takes over and "returns" us to the "pre-2015" status."
When you responded with this to Purdue85, I knew that you drank the Kool-Aid.

"1. how do you plan to address those market issues without government intervention, mr smartypants"

In your view, only "government intervention" can save us. If you don't already see that Obamacare has failed, with your vast knowledge of the topic, then nothing will shake your faith in your "savior".
 
When you responded with this to Purdue85, I knew that you drank the Kool-Aid.

"1. how do you plan to address those market issues without government intervention, mr smartypants"

In your view, only "government intervention" can save us. If you don't already see that Obamacare has failed, with your vast knowledge of the topic, then nothing will shake your faith in your "savior".
I dont. I am just being a realist about where we are. We have monopolies. What's your proposed solution that doesnt involve government. I don't think government is always the solution, I'm just not reflexively anti-government as some are. Long term, new technology probably makes this debate moot. But until then, as long there are monopolies, there is a role for governemt regulations
 
I dont. I am just being a realist about where we are. We have monopolies. What's your proposed solution that doesnt involve government. I don't think government is always the solution, I'm just not reflexively anti-government as some are. Long term, new technology probably makes this debate moot. But until then, as long there are monopolies, there is a role for governemt regulations

There are long-standing laws that prohibit the types of behavior you describe, and require nothing of the sort we've seen by the Net Neutrality crowd.

Enforcement of the Clayton Act, Sherman Act (and others) solve those issues.
 
I think most rational people in this country new all they needed to know about Obamacare when Nancy told us that they needed to vote for it so they could see what was in it.
 
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