Newman vs. Franklin
- Thread starter The Real Coach K
- Start date
It’s not an opinion. Saying the 2003 Marquette team got a lucky draw is not an opinion. They were a 3 seed who had to beat a 2 and 1 to get to the F4. That isn’t a lucky draw or broken bracket. I would have said the same thing about in any other team/coach in the country in the same situation.
Had the poster said last years #3 seed Michigan Wolverines got lucky or had a broken bracket, you know what? I wouldn’t have said a damn thing. UM beat a 14, 6, 7, 9, and 11 to get to the final game, and it took a half court shot in the second round to even advance from there. That is an example of a broken bracket or lucky draw.
Is not everyone entitled to an opinion? Does this opinion have to agree with your opinion, in order to be an opinion? We might be getting closer to the crux of the matter here.
He didn’t state an opinion, he made a flat out erroneous statement and likely because he had no clue Marquette was a 3 seed or knew the teams they beat along the way otherwise he doesn’t say something so patently stupid.
So an opinion, even as personal as it may be, has to be fact based in order to be labeled as such? What if it is a "humble" opinion? You can not be this anal......however, in case I'm in error here, I have a piece of coal with your name on it!
He wasn’t giving an opinion. He made a blanket statement that is completely unfounded by anything because he simply doesn’t know what he’s talking about. Even if he was stating an opinion, you usually base an opinion off some kind of factual piece of evidence or something that you have relative knowledge of. Clearly the poster doesn’t. It’s the same guy who said Fitzner wasn’t a good 3 point shooter and that St. Mary’s is a crappy team. Neither of those are statements are correct.
Perhaps a bit of clarification is needed. This may help you out when similar situations, in the future, rear their ugly head.
o·pin·ion
[əˈpinyən]
NOUN
- a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.
"I'm writing to voice my opinion on an issue of great importance" ·
belief · judgment · thought(s) · school of thought · thinking · way of thinking · mind · point of view · view · viewpoint · outlook · angle · slant · side · attitude · stance · perspective ·
[more]
The more video Ive consumed of him, the more opinions Ive read of him, and the more Ive analyzed the siutation hes heading into, I think Franklin has a chance to be one of the many steals that we see every year in recruiting classes.
It is too bad he chose Indiana, I think Painter was onto something here trying to pair him and Newman together. Their games compliment each orher well and they can both guard the same guys so you can switch screens with them on defense and make it hard onopposing offenses.
Franklins future is at point guard to me. If he becomes a point guard I think he has the potential to reach the NBA. If he plays primarily off the ball, I just dont think his ceiling is as high.
It is a shame he went to Indiana.
That being said, Newman is pretty awesome as well. I like him long term for Purdue and I obviously think hes got a better chance to develop playing for a coach who has developed 3 All Americans already in his career.
What I like about both of them is as 21 and 22 year old juniors and seniors, theyll already be really good athletes with a couple of offseasons in college weight and strength programs, but theyll also have experience and skill development so that will be good a good thing for them IMO.
It is too bad he chose Indiana, I think Painter was onto something here trying to pair him and Newman together. Their games compliment each orher well and they can both guard the same guys so you can switch screens with them on defense and make it hard onopposing offenses.
Franklins future is at point guard to me. If he becomes a point guard I think he has the potential to reach the NBA. If he plays primarily off the ball, I just dont think his ceiling is as high.
It is a shame he went to Indiana.
That being said, Newman is pretty awesome as well. I like him long term for Purdue and I obviously think hes got a better chance to develop playing for a coach who has developed 3 All Americans already in his career.
What I like about both of them is as 21 and 22 year old juniors and seniors, theyll already be really good athletes with a couple of offseasons in college weight and strength programs, but theyll also have experience and skill development so that will be good a good thing for them IMO.
I'll be honest, when Franklin committed, I was disappointed Indiana would likely lose out on Newman. However, that was just based on other IU posters at ITH that said Newman was better. I had only seen one video of Newman, and none of Franklin. Newman is indeed a great shooter, however I think he has a lot of other things to improve at. I started watching more video of Franklin after he committed, and I think he is the more well rounded player, but doesn't have anything that he's GREAT at yet, like Newman does. I think both will be very good players though. My opinion is that Newman will be more of an immediate impact, due to shooting. Franklin will take a couple years to really contribute, but I think his ceiling may be higher.
I agree that Franklin's ceiling is as a physical, slashing, distributing point guard. And if he and Newman played together at the same school, they could be a great pair. Franklin to drive and either score or dish to Newman, then knock down the 3. I don't know much about Newman's defensive prowess, but he has the size to be a good one. Franklin has the size and build to be a great defender too, and both playing together could have been nasty.
Speculation on my part, but it seems as though both IU and PU had room for Newman and Franklin, and that the two players must've been aware that their games and strengths are complementary, not redundant.
Is there a real possibility that these two kids or their families just plain old did not care for each other on a personal level?
Is there a real possibility that these two kids or their families just plain old did not care for each other on a personal level?
I watched Meanstreets a few different times this summer. Franklin is above average to good at everything, but great at nothing. Newman has one of the prettiest Js I’ve seen in a while. An elite shooter, but that’s it. He can barely dribble the ball.
Franklin is a better player, but I can see a situation where Newman has a bigger impact if Painter puts him in good spots to take advantage of his shooting. The thing that may end up separating them is if Franklin can develop a consistent 3 point shot.
Both sides should be happy to have them.
Franklin is a better player, but I can see a situation where Newman has a bigger impact if Painter puts him in good spots to take advantage of his shooting. The thing that may end up separating them is if Franklin can develop a consistent 3 point shot.
Both sides should be happy to have them.
They most assuredly don’t fit great together because neither is a point guard. Franklin may spell future PGs here and there if needed, but he’s not a PG.
Do you remember Rod Wilmont from IU? That’s what you’re getting in Newman. And that’s fine
Franklin has a better overall / well-rounded game, but there were games where Wilmont scored 30 for IU. Presume Newman will do the same for PU at some point.
I wasn’t bashing the kid.
I have watched multiple videos of each now and spoke with a buddy of mine who has done multiple AAU games of both and him and I agree. Newman is similar to E'Twaun Moore at the same age and Franklin is similar to Ray Davis at the same age.
Embarrassing scouting report, and highly inaccurate. Did you really watch those games, or are you just slinging bull spit? Newman is highly capable of driving to the basket and finishing through contact. He scored a reasonable number of baskets that way in most of the games I saw. His handles are fine. In fact he is also a good rebounder for a guard, with a quick leap and quick hands. The scouting services are correct, he is definitely a top 80 player. Anyone can go watch the highlights and see it.
Now, I like Franklin too, but I have made no bones about my opinion. Newman is by far a better player with a more polished game coming out of high school. Franklin has the athletic tools to improve, so I see no issues with him. He is just not the player Newman is right now.
I have said the same about Franklin. Good all-around B1G-quality player. For Newman, his strength may be his outside shot, but he can take it to the hole. Like E'Twaun Moore, he will be hard to guard.
Moore was a pretty poor perimeter shooter in H.S., but scored in a lot of other ways. He extended his range at Purdue.
Newman's a much better deep shooter (albeit lesser threat in traffic) at an even point in their careers
Moore played high school basketball at Central High School in East Chicago, where he averaged 21.2 points, 5.5 rebounds and 3.3 assists per game during his senior year (Wiki). He was considered one of the top "shooting guards" in high school. In fact, he was ranked as the 6th best shooting guard in his class. I recall him always being a deep threat, but hey, my memory isn't what it used to be.
Let me add some more stats: Moore as a freshman ranked in the top five in most Purdue freshman records, including three-point field goals (first), points scored (second), games started (second), three-point field goal percentage (third), points per game (fourth) and assists (fourth) ... Averaged a team-best 12.9 points per game to become the first true freshman in Purdue history to lead the team in scoring …
I think he was a deep threat, even as a freshjman. Just saying...
He shot around 30% from 3 as a senior at ECC. Wasn't really his game--getting to the rack and finishing in traffic, and some mid-range was.
He extended his range at Purdue.
Fun fact.. Moore's freshman year at Purdue was the last year of the 19'9" line. He shot .434 from range that season. The next year the line was moved back a foot and his % dropped to .337. He steadily worked his way back up to .400 as a senior. Hummel shot .447 his freshman year and never got back to .400.
I think you are saying he "extended his range" in the summer between his high school and his freshman year? Sure.
I think maybe you and I will have to disagree on this one. The statistics show he was an excellent jump shooter and 3-pt shooter right from his first year here. He may have slightly improved his shooting when here, but he was always a shooter, and not a slasher.
I also remember E’Twaun shooting around 30% from three point range as a high school senior, then being pleasantly surprised by how well he shot as a freshman at Purdue.
I saw him get 28 his frosh year at NW draining many jumpers/3's.
I watched the IHSAA state champ game on tv the previous year as he outscored/outplayed EG making it look easy.
He was special from the very beginning.
I watched the IHSAA state champ game on tv the previous year as he outscored/outplayed EG making it look easy.
He was special from the very beginning.
Page 20 of this IHSAA document lists E’Twaun Moore as shooting 0.299 on three pointers (32 of 107) in 2006-07 heading into the 4A state championship game his senior season at EC Central. He hit 3 of 6 in the championship game to raise that to 0.310.
http://www.ihsaa.org/archive/media/2006-07/0607bbbmediainformation.pdf
Armaan Franklin: 137th in rivals rankings, 3 star
Brandon Newman: 75th in rivals rankings, 4 star
Armaan Franklin: 137th in rivals rankings, 3 star
Brandon Newman: 75th in rivals rankings, 4 star
Vince Edwards: 124 in rivals rankings, 3 star
Victor Oladipo: 144 in rivals rankings, 3 star
Jeremy Hollowell: 41 in rivals rankings, 4 star
Carsen Edwards: 91 in rivals rankings, 4 star
I’m not saying Newman isn’t better, he may be. But I'm gonna trust the eye test more than recruit rankings. Outside of the top 5-10 players in a class, who are rarely busts, the rest of the rankings are so fluid and tough to seperate. Even top 50 guys can be flops, like Hollowell. So Newman may be better, but it's not because of the rankings, 75 and 137 don't have that much separation in actual talent.
I understand your perspective on rankings. I happen to share the same disdain for the precision of the system.
I think you have to measure the accuracy of the rank by how an expert like Matt Painter sees the talent. I think it is pretty obvious Painter wanted both kids, but his preference was Newman. To me, that confirms the ranking bias toward Newman in head to head comparison. It also confirms my eye ball test as well. I think both wil be good players, but Newman will be the better of the two.
IIRC Hollowell was bitter that Painter did not make him an offer. Some folks on here were upset that Matt didn't offer the #40 something player in rankings. Another confirmation that Matt knows talent and who is goin to be the players we want on the team.
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Marquette was a mediocre team all year that got a lucky draw and played teams that weren’t playing well in the tourney.
My opinion
You're fighting for your "right" to post nonsense?
OK...UK was the overall # 1 seed (29-3) SEC Tournament Champion and Pitt was the 2 seed BEAST Tourney Champ at 26-4. Marquette was the 3 seed in the toughest Regional at 23-5. A "lucky draw" for a 3 seed is when 2 and 3 lose early and you get to play a lower seed. MU's path was the exact opposite as they had to beat # 2 and then #1...
UK was the # 1 ranked team in the country, and Pitt was ranked # 4 So UK had a total of 3 losses all season and had just won the SEC tourney, but they weren't playing well? When exactly did that "poor play" start? Vs MU?
Just because you're posting on a free board you don't have to go out of your way to display your lack of basketball acumen. Or, which is probably more likely, be a troll...
It has nothing to do with being a Purdue fan vs an IU fan. I'd point out the same to any IU fan that posted the same nonsense.Both IU and PU were in the NCAAT that year, and one of that "mediocre" MU team's wins was over a Wisky team that won the B1G with a 12-4 mark.That MU team earned their Final Four berth, by beating 2 Top 5 teams in the S16.
I'm still trying to understand something. If the IU fans think Crean won on his recruiting and coaching brilliance, why did you celebrate his firing instead of giving him a chance to repeat at IU?You're fighting for your "right" to post nonsense?
UK was the overall # 1 seed (29-3) SEC Tournament Champion and Pitt was the 2 seed BEAST Tourney Champ at 26-4. Marquette was the 3 seed in the toughest Regional at 23-5. A "lucky draw" for a 3 seed is when 2 and 3 lose early and you get to play a lower seed. MU's path was the exact opposite as they had to beat # 2 and then #1...
UK was the # 1 ranked team in the country, and Pitt was ranked # 4 So UK had a total of 3 losses all season and had just won the SEC tourney, but they weren't playing well? When exactly did that "poor play" start? Vs MU?
Just because you're posting on a free board you don't have to go out of your way to display your lack of basketball acumen. Or, which is probably more likely, be a troll...
It has nothing to do with being a Purdue fan vs an IU fan. I'd point out the same to any IU fan that posted the same nonsense.Both IU and PU were in the NCAAT that year, and one of that "mediocre" MU team's wins was over a Wisky team that won the B1G with a 12-4 mark.That MU team earned their Final Four berth, by beating 2 Top 5 teams in the S16.
We gave him 9 years of chances. I dont remember seeing anyone suggesting he had "coaching brilliance". He could certainly recruit, but that may be more that IU recruits itself than anything.
Now you are arguing with yourself. IU fans here are defending his Marquette Final Four appearance as being much, much more than luck. Now you are telling us it wasn't recruiting. It was Marquette, not IU. If it wasn't luck and it wasn't recruiting, then what was it?
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