I mean come on. Y’all wanna try to help us out a little bit? Good lord.
Colvin and Heide yikes
- Thread starter HUD628
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Very disappointing for sure. Watching Smith dribble the air out of the ball because no one else can do anything against elite defenders is pretty frustrating.
When sets breakdown. You need a PG that can dribble drive or create his own shot against tough teams.....ours does not have that ability. He's good when sets can be executed.
Like I said in another thread....prob best as bench players on a great team vs starters on what is a good team.
This team is pretty good, but for next year needs to add some starters.
He's actually the best we have at creating his own shot. Which is the problem, No one besides Cox is even close to being able to do that. Puts Smith in a terrible spot. I agree he's not great at it and is too small at the basket but if we had a couple others that could also do it, then it wouldn't put so much pressure on him.
Colvin and Heide should not start the next game until they show they deserve it. Cox and Burgess should take their spots. Harris should be off first off the bench because he actually showed he can still hit a 3 pt shot tonight and gave good effort.
To me the biggest disappoint of the season is Colvin's development. He has all the athleticism in the world and I can even respect that his basketball knowledge still needs work because of how awful his high school coaching was but the dude just doesn't seem to give good effort consistently. That is the most frustrating part. And on offense, feels like he hasn't hit a meaningful shot since Ole Miss.
Loved to see the effort at the end of the game because that felt like the only effort I saw all game.
To me the biggest disappoint of the season is Colvin's development. He has all the athleticism in the world and I can even respect that his basketball knowledge still needs work because of how awful his high school coaching was but the dude just doesn't seem to give good effort consistently. That is the most frustrating part. And on offense, feels like he hasn't hit a meaningful shot since Ole Miss.
Loved to see the effort at the end of the game because that felt like the only effort I saw all game.
Heide just wants to stay on the perimeter and shoot 3's. No interest in playing aggressive by attacking the hoop.
This offense is not working for Purdue, it was ok when we had Eddy in the middle and TKR is no Eddy.
If it's not working change somethings around, we have to get everyone involved in the offence.
Our 2 most athletic players stand on the side waiting to get the ball and they took 5 shots between them.
We have a few games coming up we should win and are at home so at least we can look forward to that.
I mean I don't know why Colvin would be any bigger of a disappointment than Heide. Both are very similar players except Colvin is better defending smaller players and Heide is better with larger players.
Doesn’t seem like the offense is designed for them to look to go get a shot/be aggressive.
Agree with about every thing said, but... That team is tremendous. Best defense in the country. Tall, athletic quick guards,that close on shots and block or disrupt them. Ditto on wings. Plus a player of the year, do it all big man. Some teams have athletes who are not great basketball players. They have both. Poor Braden was just over matched, the large guys guarding him were quicker then him. Loyer tried his best with some success, but was held in check in the second half. Heide and Colvin shortcomings were exposed by a great defense. But, lets see how they do against good, but mortal teams before we throw them all under the bus.
Seems like short comings were exposed against less than the best team in the country ala penn st and texas am
The pick and roll with Renn isn’t working. What happened to the motion offense we ran before Edey . Get those 2 guys involved, not just someone who sits in the corner. I think it’s the offense more than them , but do agree they both need to be aggressive and they’re not. If you’re gonna move Cox and Burgess to the starting lineup then bench Heide or Colvin but not both, and Loyer sits cause we would be awful small otherwise
Auburn is special if they can stay healthy. They can win it all. But yea, agree rid what you said about Penn state. On the flip side, I am glad paint challenges his guys with these type of games. We could be playing the chatanoogas and Miami of ohios and struggle with them and then be surprised when they play an actual team and get blown out. So there’s that.
I think we still make the tourney as a 5-7 seed and hopefully make a little S16 run
Agreed. Need everyone involved on offense. Can’t run the edey offense with TKR, especially if he’s not hitting his FTs at a high clip. Just get guys open shots, don’t matter how. And attack the damn basket off the dribble.
I don't think they should be thrown under any buses but we are seeing a pattern now that either gets fixed via scheme or personnel or both.
Doing what we do right now has a hard cap.
Good point. Penn State, I don't know, awful game for Purdue. A&M has many of the same attributes as Auburn, but a notch below. I feel Purdue playing their best could beat Penn State and give A&M a game. Against Auburn the talent gap is way to big. Last year's Pudue team would fare about the same as they did vs UCONN against Auburn. ( A real 15 point loss not the 30 pont beat down before garbage time made it closer.)
Purdue playing their best beats TAMU by double digits.
Last year’s team would have beat that Auburn team, could have lost too but I’d bet they would win more than lose. Edey takes out Broome and any front court they had. It would have been similar to the bama game last year.
I suspect that Braden is about to go on a run where he looks all world again. Hopefully some other guys step up and this team gets well over the next six games.
How could he not? Granted, you would have thought that would have been clear before this season.
Use Toledo game to run plays for Colvin and Heide and see what they can do, not going anywhere this year with only 3 guys in play
Heide is NOT a 4. he never was, and never will be. Small ball isn't working. We badly needed TKR to remain at the 4 and for one of Berg, Furst or Burgess to step up and start at center. It's not happening.
Need 2 guys ideally.
Must get a 4/5.
The 2 or 3 - need a guy that can get his own shot with more length. Someone in the mold of 6-4" Xiavian Lee kid from Princeton. That's why Lance Jones was such a blessing. I thought Harris would be that guy. Right size and handle but so far can't shoot. Cox perhaps not long enough, but has the handle.
In any case.....Need a difference maker here too.
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We're running a "small ball" line-up, but are we running a "small ball" offense? I think of small ball as constantly running from one end to the other trying to beat the opponent with speed, quickness and constant passing. To me, we're still running an offense for a 7'4" center with a guard who dribbles away half the shot clock and then hopes that something special will happen with the defense already set. That may have worked last year, but not so much this year...
since my thoughts have been expressed in the original game thread to @qazplm , I'll just copy and paste to add my $.01.
No, I haven't either. What I can't do is state for certainty that they can't (physically incapable )versus won't (mentally lacking confidence) versus shouldn't (inside a set that generally places them farther down the options in what they should do). This is where a conversation could quickly point to a short shot clock and how it affects motion (better with longer clock) versus a set (a counter to a short clock) under the "team" type offense where motion is only mostly player scouted and sets being more scripted than motion has the set and player within the script scouted. What the shorter clock has done is force teams to attempt a shot relatively quick since the clock is playing D as well as the other team. This naturally leans to the quicker more athletic defender and offensive player which leans to more to offensive players "needing" to be able to score more as an individual. Consequently, the individual player's value is enhanced. The sport for "most" is entertainment value and most people like the track star qualities over the basketball "team" skills many times not noticed and so the rules have followed that line of thought I believe.
Now, I do expect Myles and Cam to grow as players and get "more" capable to "breaking down" the D sometime at Purdue, but that has NOT been their experience at Purdue. Myles is in his first year of playing much and Cam is getting many more minutes as well. Neither last year needed to break down the D since Zach was the "closer" if the clock was winding down and so BOTH have no experience to draw upon in the roles they now have and when you throw in the freshmen...there is a lot of inexperience Purdue relies upon. A couple of years ago it was Jaden that was the closer as the clock was winding down, but soon became the closer when the clock was NOT winding down.
What about this year? Obviously, Purdue needs more out of Myles and Cam offensively. I suspect neither worked on their dribbling near as much as shooting (over the summer) and that was probably almost all catch and shoot and as we have seen teams load up on defending Braden and trying to keep Trey from getting the ball on short drives...and then trying to run Fletch, Myles and Cam off the 3 pt line where only Fletcher has put the ball on the deck...as you and others know.
This is where maybe not depending on them to attack pressure individually should take a backset and just incorporate them into a set as an earlier option where they may get an open look or at least need fewer dribbling to get in scoring range? Or could add motion to more screens (of similar player size that allows more dives, slips and generally more action even if maybe not getting the physical size difference in the screening of a 5 for a 1. Purdue needs to get more offense out of them.
Perhaps this is a time where Matt takes one or both out of the starting lineup and perhaps goes smaller with CJ on the court more and/or Burgess or Berg getting more minutes which if were to happen would most likely see Burgess I'm guessing. Both offer growing pains, but could the pains be short in duration? I have to believe that we see some things different in the next game, but what they will be...who knows? Hopefully, some of that is getting Myles and Cam involved in the offense in ways that their usage is not just a late option behind the arc or an early if open in transition behind the arc.
since my thoughts have been expressed in the original game thread to @qazplm , I'll just copy and paste to add my $.01.
No, I haven't either. What I can't do is state for certainty that they can't (physically incapable )versus won't (mentally lacking confidence) versus shouldn't (inside a set that generally places them farther down the options in what they should do). This is where a conversation could quickly point to a short shot clock and how it affects motion (better with longer clock) versus a set (a counter to a short clock) under the "team" type offense where motion is only mostly player scouted and sets being more scripted than motion has the set and player within the script scouted. What the shorter clock has done is force teams to attempt a shot relatively quick since the clock is playing D as well as the other team. This naturally leans to the quicker more athletic defender and offensive player which leans to more to offensive players "needing" to be able to score more as an individual. Consequently, the individual player's value is enhanced. The sport for "most" is entertainment value and most people like the track star qualities over the basketball "team" skills many times not noticed and so the rules have followed that line of thought I believe.
Now, I do expect Myles and Cam to grow as players and get "more" capable to "breaking down" the D sometime at Purdue, but that has NOT been their experience at Purdue. Myles is in his first year of playing much and Cam is getting many more minutes as well. Neither last year needed to break down the D since Zach was the "closer" if the clock was winding down and so BOTH have no experience to draw upon in the roles they now have and when you throw in the freshmen...there is a lot of inexperience Purdue relies upon. A couple of years ago it was Jaden that was the closer as the clock was winding down, but soon became the closer when the clock was NOT winding down.
What about this year? Obviously, Purdue needs more out of Myles and Cam offensively. I suspect neither worked on their dribbling near as much as shooting (over the summer) and that was probably almost all catch and shoot and as we have seen teams load up on defending Braden and trying to keep Trey from getting the ball on short drives...and then trying to run Fletch, Myles and Cam off the 3 pt line where only Fletcher has put the ball on the deck...as you and others know.
This is where maybe not depending on them to attack pressure individually should take a backset and just incorporate them into a set as an earlier option where they may get an open look or at least need fewer dribbling to get in scoring range? Or could add motion to more screens (of similar player size that allows more dives, slips and generally more action even if maybe not getting the physical size difference in the screening of a 5 for a 1. Purdue needs to get more offense out of them.
Perhaps this is a time where Matt takes one or both out of the starting lineup and perhaps goes smaller with CJ on the court more and/or Burgess or Berg getting more minutes which if were to happen would most likely see Burgess I'm guessing. Both offer growing pains, but could the pains be short in duration? I have to believe that we see some things different in the next game, but what they will be...who knows? Hopefully, some of that is getting Myles and Cam involved in the offense in ways that their usage is not just a late option behind the arc or an early if open in transition behind the arc.
Completely agree, especially the part of getting CJ on the court more. He reminds me a lot of Carson where the guy can breakdown his defender and get a decent shot off that is more than a wing and a prayer (something, unfortunately, that Cam and Myles can't do.. nor Fletch for that matter).
Need at least a decent 5 next year backing up DJ, TKR at 4 with RB behind, those 4 would do it; Berg banging in min minutes
CJ and/or Harris tuneup for breakdown guard, West maybe?
Colvin and Heide dribble and practice move to rim all summer
This year, keep TKR(Cam some min.) at 4, Burgess/Furst at 5, 2/3 Loyer/Miles/Cox(more)
Coach Paint sees it
Our offense is very dependent on hitting outside open shots which we have not been hitting as of late.
I suspect he'll play better as well because it's a stretch of weaker competition. Now, that 7th game will be have something to say what kind of PG he really is.
You just can't have your leader, AA and the preseason B1G player of year. Have a stat line from those 2 bad loses:
6 Pts, 5 Assists, 3 TO's in 27 minutes
8 Pts, 6 Assists, 5 TO's in 37 minutes.
This doesn't mean that Smith isn't good, but this team is putting weight on a player that doesn't have the ability to carry a team on his back every single game like ZE.
So, is the blame on CMP for the structure of this team? Is it Smith for not guiding this team better? That's why I would rather see growth from our youth this year vs. expecting another FF run with this team, because it most likely won't happen. The player development hasn't been there for a couple of guys that we need and when they do show up....we win.
Team effort!
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There is one piece of tape that all but the big three need to study. And maybe I have to study it too because maybe I added to it in my mind. However, it was when Burgess received a pass a second too late, made the fake, and had a doable but slightly contested three. Instead, he drove past the defender defending the three, and with three dribbles, it was a dunk. It was a play that Colvin, Heide, and Waddell could easily do, even Furst.
I’ll admit that my attention span is short so I skimmed your post but you make good points.since my thoughts have been expressed in the original game thread to @qazplm , I'll just copy and paste to add my $.01.
No, I haven't either. What I can't do is state for certainty that they can't (physically incapable )versus won't (mentally lacking confidence) versus shouldn't (inside a set that generally places them farther down the options in what they should do). This is where a conversation could quickly point to a short shot clock and how it affects motion (better with longer clock) versus a set (a counter to a short clock) under the "team" type offense where motion is only mostly player scouted and sets being more scripted than motion has the set and player within the script scouted. What the shorter clock has done is force teams to attempt a shot relatively quick since the clock is playing D as well as the other team. This naturally leans to the quicker more athletic defender and offensive player which leans to more to offensive players "needing" to be able to score more as an individual. Consequently, the individual player's value is enhanced. The sport for "most" is entertainment value and most people like the track star qualities over the basketball "team" skills many times not noticed and so the rules have followed that line of thought I believe.
Now, I do expect Myles and Cam to grow as players and get "more" capable to "breaking down" the D sometime at Purdue, but that has NOT been their experience at Purdue. Myles is in his first year of playing much and Cam is getting many more minutes as well. Neither last year needed to break down the D since Zach was the "closer" if the clock was winding down and so BOTH have no experience to draw upon in the roles they now have and when you throw in the freshmen...there is a lot of inexperience Purdue relies upon. A couple of years ago it was Jaden that was the closer as the clock was winding down, but soon became the closer when the clock was NOT winding down.
What about this year? Obviously, Purdue needs more out of Myles and Cam offensively. I suspect neither worked on their dribbling near as much as shooting (over the summer) and that was probably almost all catch and shoot and as we have seen teams load up on defending Braden and trying to keep Trey from getting the ball on short drives...and then trying to run Fletch, Myles and Cam off the 3 pt line where only Fletcher has put the ball on the deck...as you and others know.
This is where maybe not depending on them to attack pressure individually should take a backset and just incorporate them into a set as an earlier option where they may get an open look or at least need fewer dribbling to get in scoring range? Or could add motion to more screens (of similar player size that allows more dives, slips and generally more action even if maybe not getting the physical size difference in the screening of a 5 for a 1. Purdue needs to get more offense out of them.
Perhaps this is a time where Matt takes one or both out of the starting lineup and perhaps goes smaller with CJ on the court more and/or Burgess or Berg getting more minutes which if were to happen would most likely see Burgess I'm guessing. Both offer growing pains, but could the pains be short in duration? I have to believe that we see some things different in the next game, but what they will be...who knows? Hopefully, some of that is getting Myles and Cam involved in the offense in ways that their usage is not just a late option behind the arc or an early if open in transition behind the arc.
I
It's clear that Braden and the rest of this team are still figuring out how to play together without Zach, particularly against teams that can execute a game plan to take the ball out of Braden's hands, keep the ball out of the post, and run shooters off of the three-point line.
Yes, you can absolutely blame Painter for the structure as he's committed to a developmental program rather than living in the portal and that's going to come with growing pains. I'd hold off on looking for blame until we see if this team can 'get well' in January. I'd hope to see enough growth from this team to be competitive at Oregon, but if they can go 4-2 over the next six games (Toledo, @MN, NU, @RU, NE, @WA) maybe they can make a run with four of the subsequent six games being in Mackey.
If Cam, Myles, RB, and Gicarri don't progress, this team's ceiling will be fairly limited.
Heide and Colvin are what they are. They can jump high and sometimes grab some nice boards, but not often. Heide gets to the hoop and makes an awesome dunk, but not often. They both can shoot threes, Colvin seems more streaky, Heide more consistent, but they are mostly catch and shoot. Neither has the handles to get their own shot and they aren’t miraculously going to improve their handles during the season. They can’t dribble through a press. They are Purdues “athletes “. Look across the floor at Auburn. Athletes with superior quickness, can shoot , dribble, get to the hoop, block your shot and go coast to coast. Guards that are six-six,six-seven doing this, quicker than Braden. They bring a six-one guard off the bench who scores 18 off the bench when it counted. Fluke? No, he scored 20 vs Duke. They probably had 6 or 7 guys more “athletic “ than Colvin and Heide, and they were also skilled too. Painter values skilled. I think Purdue needs one of these type players next year to go far.
I do wish we were not oversigned this offseason and could have added Conwell kid from Indianapolis that transferred from Indiana State or someone like that.
Team just needs another gaurd that can handle and put the ball in the bucket. Silver lining is Cox might be that guy by end of year and Harris might keep getting opportunities to grow and get better without a veteran in his way.
Front court has needs, but Catchings bailing at last minute and Jacobson injury were unforseen circumstances with roster construction.
Let's be honest... The season lost a lot of steam due to Catchings' idiocy and Jacobsen's injury. Time to develop the future and give Burgess, Cox, and Harris more PT from Fletcher and Furst.
Anticipating a top 5 B1G finish and a 6/7 seed which is still something we can build off of.
Anticipating a top 5 B1G finish and a 6/7 seed which is still something we can build off of.
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