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Big 10 Tourney

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pubill

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Looking forward, I got to thinking when reading the thread about Smith's wear and worry of wearing him down.

I definitely want a Big 10 title and to add to our total. We have a battle on our hands catching Wiscy and it won't be easy. But I do think we will get it done and if we do.

I am not sure we don't use the Big 10 tourney as a time to rest Smith Edey and whoever else needs it. I personally do not care about a Championship in it and I get the opinion Matt may not either. I think it would be wise to give some time off to players during this tourney and get ready for the NCAA's.

Anyone else agree or disagree?
 
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I think it's a fine line between getting your guys some rest and wanting to be firing on all cylinders come NCAA. Rest is good, but the team playing well is more important. So I think it totally depends on how the team is playing.
 
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The rest vs rust debate is always an interesting one. At least this year, I am of the thinking that the big ten tourney should be used as a chance for rest. The biggest thing for me is to avoid a bad loss. Other than that, I would be fine if we played some bench guys more. Obviously I don’t think we should try to intentionally lose, but I can live with a loss to a team like ILL in the semis if it means our players are more rested and healthy for the big dance. We’ve seen before that the selection committee doesn’t factor in the games on Sunday and possibly Saturday, so I don’t think a loss in the semis or later would have an impact on seed/location anyways.
 
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pubill said:
Looking forward, I got to thinking when reading the thread about Smith's wear and worry of wearing him down.

I definitely want a Big 10 title and to add to our total. We have a battle on our hands catching Wiscy and it won't be easy. But I do think we will get it done and if we do.

I am not sure we don't use the Big 10 tourney as a time to rest Smith Edey and whoever else needs it. I personally do not care about a Championship in it and I get the opinion Matt may not either. I think it would be wise to give some time off to players during this tourney and get ready for the NCAA's.

Anyone else agree or disagree?
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I find it hard to believe that the players and coaches do not want to win the season and the Big Tourney. Both are bragging rights as to a major accomplishment 30 years from now. That said, the Big tourney being so late possibly makes it harder on the Big Teams particularly those without a bye that still get in the tourney.

We will know the importance in how Matt plays his regulars if the games are tight. I know fatigue in general has been a concern and especially with the lateness of the Big Tourney with so little turn around time. What I do not know is whether any players have ever stated they thought the were fatigued entering the NCAA tourney. We also know the Big is loaded with tough, physical teams with a long season. Many are concerned about players like Braden wearing himself out. I'm guessing a solid 3 or 4 days rest helps and if a "week" allowed a bit more rest in those games, players playing a lot could get sufficient rest. I'm guessing like everyone else on the importance of the Big Tourney. I just believe the players competitors they are want to win everything they are in and that would include the tourney. That said, I wouldn't mind not having the tourney.
 
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pubill said:
Looking forward, I got to thinking when reading the thread about Smith's wear and worry of wearing him down.

I definitely want a Big 10 title and to add to our total. We have a battle on our hands catching Wiscy and it won't be easy. But I do think we will get it done and if we do.

I am not sure we don't use the Big 10 tourney as a time to rest Smith Edey and whoever else needs it. I personally do not care about a Championship in it and I get the opinion Matt may not either. I think it would be wise to give some time off to players during this tourney and get ready for the NCAA's.

Anyone else agree or disagree?
Click to expand...

Completely agree. Rest some of the starters and play some of the reserves more. If we don't win the B1G regular season and/or tournament, I won't shed any tears.

It's all about being fresh in March. Smith and Loyer looked very tired at the end of last season.
 
PUQBMan. said:
The rest vs rust debate is always an interesting one. At least this year, I am of the thinking that the big ten tourney should be used as a chance for rest. The biggest thing for me is to avoid a bad loss. Other than that, I would be fine if we played some bench guys more. Obviously I don’t think we should try to intentionally lose, but I can live with a loss to a team like ILL in the semis if it means our players are more rested and healthy for the big dance. We’ve seen before that the selection committee doesn’t factor in the games on Sunday and possibly Saturday, so I don’t think a loss in the semis or later would have an impact on seed/location anyways.
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Not sure the Purdue players buy into not trying to win everything they are in. Some of us as outsiders may think that losing a game early provides a much needed rest, but unsure the team would buy into that. What is the perfect scenario is to win them all, but in doing so having a bit more playing time added to some and a bit less playing time for others. Then you have a win-win-win-win. Win the tourney, win resting regulars more, win playing subs more, win with a team effort. That would only happen with Ethan getting more minutes which is at odds no doubt with some that want Braden to rest more since some want Ethan to get less minutes. Getting a few more minutes out of Caleb, Cam and Myles could add rest for Fletcher and Lance as well as Zach. Losing early in the Big added some pressure to the team...
 
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pubill said:
Looking forward, I got to thinking when reading the thread about Smith's wear and worry of wearing him down.

I definitely want a Big 10 title and to add to our total. We have a battle on our hands catching Wiscy and it won't be easy. But I do think we will get it done and if we do.

I am not sure we don't use the Big 10 tourney as a time to rest Smith Edey and whoever else needs it. I personally do not care about a Championship in it and I get the opinion Matt may not either. I think it would be wise to give some time off to players during this tourney and get ready for the NCAA's.

Anyone else agree or disagree?
Click to expand...
I might agree that there's value to your idea, but I can say without any doubt, that Painter and the players will not feel that way.

The Indianapolis sub--regional is Friday-Sunday. Does that make a difference from Thursday-Saturday? I don't know.
 
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The last Big Ten team to win the NC won the regular season and cruised through the BTT. Their last two losses that year? At Purdue then at Indiana.
 
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Teams that do well in March are ones that go into the tournament on winning streaks. Teams that rest their players tend to be rusty and lose the first weekend.

Sometimes you can provide your starters their needed rest by playing a slower tempo game.

Teams that win in a tournament tend to use a smaller rotation. Research also shows those players who play 30+ minutes in the tourney also averaged playing 30+ minutes during the normal season.

If you are concerned about players getting tired from overuse then you need to recruit players that have more stamina! Great teams have starters that don't need a rest.

The season should also be used to build up a player’s stamina rather than resting them and hoping the rest will build up their stamina for when it is required
 
Chi-Boiler said:
I might agree that there's value to your idea, but I can say without any doubt, that Painter and the players will not feel that way.

The Indianapolis sub--regional is Friday-Sunday. Does that make a difference from Thursday-Saturday? I don't know.
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I think the friday-sunday definitely makes a diff. --- BTW< how would the Big Guys in Vegas feel about our sitting our stars?
 
Do Dah Day said:
I think the friday-sunday definitely makes a diff. --- BTW< how would the Big Guys in Vegas feel about our sitting our stars?
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or how would the heads of the Big feel with less hype on Purdue in a tourney especially if announced earlier. ;)
 
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Gman544 said:
The last Big Ten team to win the NC won the regular season and cruised through the BTT. Their last two losses that year? At Purdue then at Indiana.
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lost me. Who won both the BTT and the NC?
 
PUQBMan. said:
Only 3 of the last 11 NCAA tournament champions won their conference tournament. So 8 of the last 11 champions entered the tournament having lost their last game.
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I just think you have thrown sources of variation together under the same umbrella which is a very common approach in the forums. No question that teams could lose in their conference tourney and win the NCAA tourney, but you are missing IMO a very important tidbit on a conference tourney and why that happens.

In a conference tourney the opposing coaches and players ALL know the opposition VERY well. Sometimes previous games of those teams were close. I also believe the more knowledgeable an inferior team is the more advantageous that knowledge is of use for the inferior team. I think there is support for this with a gross look at conference loses relative to talented wins outside the conference for many teams

If we take the team we all love...Purdue.. we find that the only loses that have occurred came inside the conference. Purdue has beaten much better teams than those two that beat Purdue. The Big is not an anomaly in this regard. I think we can see lots of good teams that end up stumbling inside the conference to inferior teams that didn't stumble outside the conference. It appears to be the case quite often. So I find no value in 8 out of 11 or 3 out of 11 as any indicator of anything other than lack of success inside the conference tourney doesn't quite often translate to success outside the conference for those NC years you mention or a FF or whatever metric may be used.

So I think there are reasons for good teams to lose inside a conference that may not outside the conference and certainly agree that a team CAN LOSE inside a conference tourney as your numbers indicate, but I also see the reasons why only 3 as you mentioned may exist. I believe the numbers you have are different as a result of the knowledge coaches and players have for upsets in the conference and see that in play in the season conference games as well
 
tjreese said:
I just think you have thrown sources of variation together under the same umbrella which is a very common approach in the forums. No question that teams could lose in their conference tourney and win the NCAA tourney, but you are missing IMO a very important tidbit on a conference tourney and why that happens.

In a conference tourney the opposing coaches and players ALL know the opposition VERY well. Sometimes previous games of those teams were close. I also believe the more knowledgeable an inferior team is the more advantageous that knowledge is of use for the inferior team. I think there is support for this with a gross look at conference loses relative to talented wins outside the conference for many teams

If we take the team we all love...Purdue.. we find that the only loses that have occurred came inside the conference. Purdue has beaten much better teams than those two that beat Purdue. The Big is not an anomaly in this regard. I think we can see lots of good teams that end up stumbling inside the conference to inferior teams that didn't stumble outside the conference. It appears to be the case quite often. So I find no value in 8 out of 11 or 3 out of 11 as any indicator of anything other than lack of success inside the conference tourney doesn't quite often translate to success outside the conference for those NC years you mention or a FF or whatever metric may be used.

So I think there are reasons for good teams to lose inside a conference that may not outside the conference and certainly agree that a team CAN LOSE inside a conference tourney as your numbers indicate, but I also see the reasons why only 3 as you mentioned may exist. I believe the numbers you have are different as a result of the knowledge coaches and players have for upsets in the conference and see that in play in the season conference games as well
Click to expand...
TJ, he was responding to Wole who said "Teams that do well in March are ones that go into the tournament on winning streaks". He was showing Wole that he was wrong. I think you missed the point of his stat.
 
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tjreese said:
I just think you have thrown sources of variation together under the same umbrella which is a very common approach in the forums. No question that teams could lose in their conference tourney and win the NCAA tourney, but you are missing IMO a very important tidbit on a conference tourney and why that happens.

In a conference tourney the opposing coaches and players ALL know the opposition VERY well. Sometimes previous games of those teams were close. I also believe the more knowledgeable an inferior team is the more advantageous that knowledge is of use for the inferior team. I think there is support for this with a gross look at conference loses relative to talented wins outside the conference for many teams

If we take the team we all love...Purdue.. we find that the only loses that have occurred came inside the conference. Purdue has beaten much better teams than those two that beat Purdue. The Big is not an anomaly in this regard. I think we can see lots of good teams that end up stumbling inside the conference to inferior teams that didn't stumble outside the conference. It appears to be the case quite often. So I find no value in 8 out of 11 or 3 out of 11 as any indicator of anything other than lack of success inside the conference tourney doesn't quite often translate to success outside the conference for those NC years you mention or a FF or whatever metric may be used.

So I think there are reasons for good teams to lose inside a conference that may not outside the conference and certainly agree that a team CAN LOSE inside a conference tourney as your numbers indicate, but I also see the reasons why only 3 as you mentioned may exist. I believe the numbers you have are different as a result of the knowledge coaches and players have for upsets in the conference and see that in play in the season conference games as well
Click to expand...
All I was trying to do was disprove another one of bigelow’s musings-stated-as-fact that aren’t in any way backed up by data. Essentially my point is that conference tourney results do not impact NCAA tourney success, which I think you may agree with.
 
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Dryfly88 said:
Play to win every game. Get Smith out as soon as possible, but play to win everything. B1G tournament is done on Sunday afternoon and we wouldn't play until Friday (most likely right now). That is plenty of rest.
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We had the same Sunday - Friday break last year.
 
Chi-Boiler said:
That's what happens when you block Wole.
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True, but I haven’t blocked him. Probably just lost my place between sites and or threads and just missed it. I try to read everyone’s if the thread interests me
 
The time to rest those guys is late in games that we are up 15+ points, like the Michigan and Penn State games. Accumulate the rest. They aren't going to go half-throttle in the B10 tourney.
 
Dryfly88 said:
Yes, and I'm one that doesn't believe fatigue played a part in our loss to FDU. Sunday afternoon to Friday is plenty of rest time.
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Not if you have been worn down for months.
You can’t tell me Braden looked as quick in that game (or in the BTT) as he looked 2-3 months earlier. And that’s a big problem when you’re tiny and rely on quickness.

I am hoping a better offseason helps this time. And Painter doesn’t seem worried about it, so I’ll have to trust him.
 
New Pal Boiler said:
Not if you have been worn down for months.
You can’t tell me Braden looked as quick in that game (or in the BTT) as he looked 2-3 months earlier. And that’s a big problem when you’re tiny and rely on quickness.

I am hoping a better offseason helps this time. And Painter doesn’t seem worried about it, so I’ll have to trust him.
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I know you and TJ have been going back and forth on this and I don't want to extend it any longer. You "think" fatigue played a part in the FDU loss and others like myself don't "think" it did. Since no one on the team has said either way, we will never know.
 
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Dryfly88 said:
I know you and TJ have been going back and forth on this and I don't want to extend it any longer. You "think" fatigue played a part in the FDU loss and others like myself don't "think" it did. Since no one on the team has said either way, we will never know.
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Do you think Braden looked as quick in March as he did in December?
 
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