No not pay our current assistants more. Cut our current assistants, and hire some assistants with real resumes. For example, we could probably get Fife from MSU for 300k/yr.
When have we had enough mediocrity?
- Thread starter nxandy
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painter on the mackey complex upgrade: "This plan is integrating state-of-the-art facilities and still preserving the tradition of the past."
was painter over-selling the upgrades at the time? or is there an expectation to upgrade and keep it state-of-the-art within every 10 years?
assistant pay seems much more manageable dollar wise compared to facilities...
however, we just spent 1.9M last year on new video screens in the arena. would it have been a better return on investment for bobinski to put that $ toward numerous years of increased assistant pay instead?
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Not true even in the slightest. Are you really this clueless about how recruiting works? You post much better stuff usually.
Can you explain the costs that goes into recruiting an Indiana kid? If it's not even close to being true, then there must be information out there that you have and I don't as far as recruiting Indiana kids. How much does a trip to Mccutcheon cost Purdue? What about Fort Wayne? Center Grove?
Along those lines, how much do text messages, phone calls, and facetiming cost us? What big expenses am I missing when it comes to recruiting Indiana kids?
Let's say we increased the recruiting budget by $5 million. How and where would that money be spent to better help us recruit Indiana kids?
You're laser focused on JUST the recruiting budget. Recruiting success expands well beyond a simple recruiting budget.
https://www.indystar.com/story/spor...aches-recruiting-expenses-tom-crean/30291627/
From 2015, but this article outlines what goes into IU's recruiting expenses, and even mentions why Purdue's is so much lower.
IU doesn't own private planes, so they have massive amounts of expenses to charter private planes. Purdue owns planes that can be used for recruiting as long as Painter is on the plane.
Additionally, as the article states, IU under Crean spent more time recruiting the East cost which obviously costs more money to recruit.
So as the article points out, airfare is the biggest expense when it comes to recruiting. Turns out you don't have to fly to visit Indiana recruits. So I will ask again, how is it not cheap to recruit Indiana kids?
Forget about this all budget limitations stuff.
all the money in the world would not have landed Romeo or Zion to Purdue.
the same could be said about JJJ, Hall, Brooks, TJD, and Nnaji. Our recruiting budget and what we pay our assistants was not a factor. painter could have spent another $1 million, and they would have still chosen other schools.
Simply stated, painter struck out and it was never about the money in our recruiting budget. the reality is painter swung for the fences, and battled the big boys for their talents, and the big boys won. it's not like painter lost out to Dayton or toledo or Rutgers or Illinois. Look at the players Painter offered and the schools they committed to. Painter lost out to IU, Arizona, UK, UNC, MSU, UCLA, MSU , Mich, and Gonzaga.
no amount of additional money is going to change this.
factors that might lead to a change are making the final 4. winning championships. Winning key non conference games. Playing more games against the blue bloods like Duke and U k and winning. and maybe having some different assistant coaches.
I've wondered as part of the BIG 10 / ACC challenge why Purdue always seems to get a lesser team . We never seem to get to play UNC or Duke. Even if we lost, I believe that would go a long way toward gaining some publicity and respect. Win or lose against FSU just didn't gain much pub or cred with recruits. if we won, it's basically, you beat, FSU - big deal.
all the money in the world would not have landed Romeo or Zion to Purdue.
the same could be said about JJJ, Hall, Brooks, TJD, and Nnaji. Our recruiting budget and what we pay our assistants was not a factor. painter could have spent another $1 million, and they would have still chosen other schools.
Simply stated, painter struck out and it was never about the money in our recruiting budget. the reality is painter swung for the fences, and battled the big boys for their talents, and the big boys won. it's not like painter lost out to Dayton or toledo or Rutgers or Illinois. Look at the players Painter offered and the schools they committed to. Painter lost out to IU, Arizona, UK, UNC, MSU, UCLA, MSU , Mich, and Gonzaga.
no amount of additional money is going to change this.
factors that might lead to a change are making the final 4. winning championships. Winning key non conference games. Playing more games against the blue bloods like Duke and U k and winning. and maybe having some different assistant coaches.
I've wondered as part of the BIG 10 / ACC challenge why Purdue always seems to get a lesser team . We never seem to get to play UNC or Duke. Even if we lost, I believe that would go a long way toward gaining some publicity and respect. Win or lose against FSU just didn't gain much pub or cred with recruits. if we won, it's basically, you beat, FSU - big deal.
No @mathboy called me out saying I was ridiculous for saying recruiting budget had nothing to do with landing Indiana kids. See my post above, and you will see exactly how cheap it is to recruit in state.
Of course there is more to it than just recruiting budget, and that's my entire point. We aren't losing recruits because we aren't spending enough on recruiting.
Ok - well, shifting to just recruiting budgets, I'd ask you why is IU's recruiting budget significantly higher? Shouldn't they get these discounted recruiting costs like you think Purdue is because they can recruit in-state?
Also, the notion that we should just recruit the state and leave it at that. Our roster has some talented players from out of state. Do you not want us to recruit them? Carsen Edwards is from Texas....
READ MY POST ABOVE. I can't help you if you aren't willing to read what I write. IU has bigger expenses, because they don't own a private plane. They charter planes for recruiting trips. This is where most of their expenses come from. Under Crean they spent a lot of time on the East coast recruiting. That required more charter flights to do that. Also, as the article mentions, Crean recruited year round. Most coaches aren't doing that during the season.
I never once said Purdue should only recruit in state. Don't put words in my mouth.
Maybe I can help. Where does budget figure into recruiting Indiana kids?
I can see several places where it would help:
- First, a better budget would retain better assistant coaches that are good at recruiting. Many programs rely on their assistants almost entirely to identify and recruit their players. The head coach acts as the closer and provides oversight. This is a budget impact regardless of the state being recruited.
- Second, a better budget allows you to up your style points, for lack of a better term. The Purdue assistant drives up in their 2010 Ford Focus, just as the Ohio State guy is leaving in his rented BMW or Mercedes. What is the impression?
- Indiana kids play all over the world sometimes. We took a swing at Hall and that involved significant travel. Budgets allow you to do that. Let's say a target Indiana kid is playing in a tournament in Seattle, or Charlotte. We need the budget to travel there and rent a decent car.
The assistants salaries dont come out of the RECRUITING BUDGET.
As the article I provided you outlined, over $550k of IU's $650k recruiting expenses came from chartering planes. Purdue doesn't have that issue, because we own private jets. If an Indiana kid is playing in Seatle, then Painter and company jump on their private plane and go see the kid. As far as our RECRUITING BUDGET (not overall program budget) goes, we have enough to land the RPs, Brooks, and TJDs of the state.
You can't blame "lack of RECRUITING BUDGET" as a reason we lost out on those guys. We lost out on them for other reasons, and I would wager the other coaching staff built better relationships with those players.
Here we go again...Purdue loses recruits because of location...that’s crap. Ever been to East Lansing? College Park? Ann Arbor? None of those are anything special.
Location is about #278 on the list of important things for a top basketball recruit. Otherwise, Hawaii and Miami would be perennial powers.
Wow, you really do pull out all the excuses. Now, because P isn’t known as a “fun” school, we’re at a disadvantage. Do you think Duke is a party school? Kansas? Michigan? Nope.
How much partying do you think top athletes have time to do?
This is the thing right there. P needs to sack up, give Painter a check and tell him to find the best closer out there.
Just like in the movie “Roadhouse”! The guy had a vision, knew he had to spend the money to make that vision a reality. ( and no, Wade Garrett was not the best)...
It's not an excuse. It is a reality. We are not a popular location to the highly rated recruits.
Location does not seem important when you take into account of priorities of ALL recruits. If you are 2,3 star recruits, who comprise of the majority of recruits, the location matters a little; a chance of a scholarship does. But the 5 star recruits? They care. They are sought after. They can afford to be choosy and they do. But since there are so few, their priority doesn't show up clearly in such a poll.
Since you bring up other B1G schools, let's discuss them. It is apparent that there are a few schools in the B1G who consistently outrecruit us: MSU, OSU, IU, and Michigan. Others sometimes do, sometimes we win. MSU has Tom Izzo, who is known to be an excellent coach despite the perception here. OSU and Michigan are the two big boys in the B1G with large campus and massive fan support for their athletic program. IU is the fun-loving destination school in Indiana with a lot of tradition. Tell me what advantage Purdue has over these schools other than academics.
Academics is not really a factor for elite recruits. okoro went to Oregon to study computer science. Nnajadi's dad said academics was very important before he committed to Arizona.
Nothing special about the Raliegh Durham area. I’m up there all the time. Traffic sucks. Suburbia hell. When Coach K leaves, Duke will be Northwestern basketball.
None of those things matter. The #1, 2 and 3 things that matter the most are the head coach. Players commit to a coach, not a school. A top player is going to be on campus 1-3 years.
And, if players are basing their choice on location, why isn’t the SEC a basketball conference? Who the hell wants to be in MI, IN or OH from Nov through March when they could be in FL, GA or SC?
Apparently the 2021 team in danger of not making the tournament for the third straight year.
Most college students (especially athletes) don't really leave the college area much. I also think Duke is a terrible comparison. I don't necessarily think location/town impacts things heavily. I don't think Michigan State is in a town/campus that's really any different than Purdue.
That being said, there are certainly more direct advantages that, say, MSU has over Purdue that are more basketball related.
I mean some of this stuff is just reputation based. The Izzone is probably the most well known student section in the Big Ten - but it's literally a 1/3 of the size of Purdue's student section. It's just been marketed really well to where people talk about it and how they want to go see a game to see the Izzone. It may seem silly, but it's hyped stuff like that. You ask 10 random people if they'd rather go see a game at Michigan State or Purdue, and I guarantee you 9/10 people would think MSU would be a cooler experience. But if you actually described the historic arena, atmosphere, etc. and compared them, more people would probably pick Purdue.
Purdue's been the leader in Big Ten championships for decades. In the last few years, they finally actually bragged about it and put it on the damn facade of Mackey.
Purdue was so bad in marketing in the 90s/2000s - and it was really the "marketing boom" of college athletics with the uniforms, social media emerging, etc. Purdue (basketball) has done a good job of catching up - but Purdue has got to get ahead and be more cutting edge/confident/edgy. That's what makes you stand out these days.
Having mentioned Krzyzewski, that reminds me of something. Off the top of my head, I can only think of three Power 5/other "major" programs that have had no more than two coaches since 1980 -
Duke (Mike Krzyzewski)
Michigan State (Jud Heathcote/Tom Izzo)
Purdue (Gene Keady/Matt Painter)
Surely, there are more......maybe not.
Courtesy of Wolegib - Syracuse (Jim Boeheim/Mike Hopkins (9 games))
Villanova has had three (Rollie Massimino/Steve Lappas/Jay Wright)
West Virginia has had three (Gale Catlett/John Beilein/Bob Huggins),
Temple has had three (Don Casey/Don Chaney/Fran Dunphy),
and up until last year, Louisville would have been in there with Denny Crum and Rick Pitino.
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I think you are touching the largest impact on the big picture. The entire university does not promote itself. There isn't anything other than the alumni doing anything to put the name of Purdue in front of people of small ages. People in the state feet Purdue is an Ivy League school in the east. They didn't know the name, the location or the importance to the educational structure to the state of Indiana. Some things have improved because President Daniels has lead the effort to increase awareness in Purdue through commercials and other forms of social media. But it is 60 years too late to help us in 2018. Just look at our radio network for our sports teams. We used to be on WOWO in Ft.Wayne and WIBC in Indy, the two most important stations in Indiana. We lost those. The smaller stations in those localities don't have range of their signal to pass 25 miles in one direction. WNDE in Indy doesn't even cover the entire Marion County area.
But now the challenge is to get people to listen to the station we are on. There must be a reason to listen to our stations and not someone else's.
We have been on that little island called Tippecanoe County for way too long. We must branch out to all the important areas of Indiana and not be shy of who we are and what we are about.
Sorry iron, I responded thinking over all budget and applied to how it affects recruiting. You want to nick down the argument until it fits your narrative. Still not buying your position.
I agree with a lot of what you wrote, although I wouldn't use radio as your barometer. Radio has change SOOOO much in recent years.
So you think the reason we flop so much on the recruiting trail is overall budget? It has nothing to do with Painter, or his assistant's abilities (or lack there of) to build interpersonal relationships?
You are truly hard to argue with because you continually fail to recognize the context of the arguments, and tend to move the goalposts. During the previous administration, not now, our sports budget was such that made us uncompetitive in all major sports. That was my point.
I said nothing about the current situation. Yes, we missed on some guys this year. We have a good class coming in, but not a great one. Newman is a pretty good player, who I expect to impact the team next year. IT will also see playing time as well, and could be an important add in that he builds relationships well which will help with recruiting.
I think we have beaten this topic to death, and to the satisfaction of neither group. How about we let these threads die? I suspect that several of these threads were started by posters who are not Purdue fans. All we are doing is feeding these trolls. (Iron, I am not referring to you here).
I may have posted this before on the football board, but it’s a great read on Kirby Smart’s recruiting operation at Georgia:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&sou...aw33sOpC2MpJvx0m_E5mWUng&ust=1544054247037837
I disagree that budget had anything to do with it, but we can agree to disagree.
Bob King could recruit to Purdue.
Frank Kendrick could recruit to Purdue
Kevin Sumlin could recruit to Purdue
Brock Spack could recruit to Purdue
Cuonzo Martin could recruit to Purdue
All Purdue grads, interestingly. It can be done.
So how many times did we get to the final four with
Kendricks recruits? Sumlin' s recruits? Martin's recruits? See how that works? I will give you Bob King, since his Rick Mount team made the FF. Those were different days and what worked then won't work now.
Kendrick and Cuonzo helped build legit top 5 teams that could have made the final 4, by landing multiple top 50 players each.
And building relationships is a timeless skill. Bob King would be just as successful now as he was back then.
Sumlin and Spack’s recruiting contributed to the greatest Purdue football run in the last half century.
It's funny because going into this season, I actually was trying to dial people back because they were hyping how many great athletes we had on our roster.
Now, suddenly, we aren't talented.
Recruiting is one facet of coaching. Actually coaching and developing players is another. Look at Cuonzo - I love the guy, but what has he accomplished since leaving Purdue? In 11 years as a head coach, he's been to the NCAA Tournament 3 years - advancing past the first round once (5 seasons ago). He's a good recruiter, but I think the jury is still out on his coaching and development skills. Mizzou is looking rough this year - already losing to Temple amongst 3 losses (all to unranked teams), and escaping against Kennesaw State and UCF. And hell, our classes in 2018 & 2019 have more 4 stars than his.
People are clamoring to have the perfect 5 start coach at 2 star prices and investment.
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