Yep, I think it's fair to say we have had the 5th best results of Big Ten teams over the last 13 years.
When have we had enough mediocrity?
- Thread starter nxandy
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It's ten times better than not making it at all. How do you think Penn Stste fans feel about their team and their coach?
And I would like to date someone with the face and body of Jennifer Lawrence. What's new.
The difference is you arent on the level of the guys she dates. We are on the same level as the programs I mentioned. Let's not compare apples and oranges.
I haven't followed this thread, so maybe you've already addressed this, but, what is it that you would do, precisely?
There are 3 statistics that I consider meaningful, Big Ten Championships, Final Fours, and NCs. All other statistics are fluff.
We are in the same conference. WE ARE NOT ON THE SAME LEVEL. We'd like to be, are capable, and we are competing to be, but the talent level and attraction has not been in the same level.
If you read my post before, our basketball program spend less than those of all the schools you mentioned.
https://www.jconline.com/story/spor...xpenses-where-purdue-ranks-big-ten/100331366/
In fact, the only school that spend less on their basketball program than Purdue is Rutgers (Penn State's number is also less than Purdue, but as the article states, the number of Penn State does not include salaries and bonuses for the coach and the assistants). We have not invested in the program as much as those top tiers of the conference, so Painter's budget is limited and we are not a destination school, not because of the on-court performance, but because of our location. Remember when the media did a poll on the Big Ten basketball program? Our disadvantage was simple: "the city of West Lafayette. It’s just … not very good."
https://watchstadium.com/news/big-t...k-the-best-jobs-in-the-conference-10-11-2018/
We are ranked higher on that list BECAUSE of the success of Painter, not despite of him. We are just not a place where the high-ranked recruits are eager to come to, and our academic standard is tough.
Again, I'm not saying Purdue can be better. It can. But just thinking it is the natural order of things is idiotic, because it isn't.
So unless you are an either conference champion, regional champion, or National Champion, all your other accomplishments are crap? Talk about delusional. I guess you got all A+'s in high school and went to Ivy League school with now 6-figure salary job?
So you are blaming our AD? Also, it costs almost nothing to recruit Indiana kids. Having less expenses has nothing to do with not landing elite Indiana recruits.
It does NOT cost almost nothing to recruit Indiana kids. On top of IU being the traditional destination school in Indiana, we are competing for talents with IU, ND, and Butler just in the same STATE, not to mention MSU, Michigan, OSU, and even Kentucky schools poaching our talents. They are so close enough that our distance advantage is practically moot. So we have to do more to just to keep up with, and the budget problem definitely does not help.
It also does not help that there exists a perception of us not being a fun school... because we are not. I don't know if you met many HS athletes; they are not so studious types. All that is excluding those who are "dirty", as the recent Adidas case indicates.
Again, I can't stress this enough, I'm not saying we shouldn't expect more. But expecting something and thinking it is a must-be are not the same thing. I want Purdue to be on the same level as that of OSU, Michigan, and MSU. But I don't think it is a natural given right; we must earn it, and frankly, we need a few slices of luck, which we have seriously lacked.
I never said it was a given right. I want Purude to be on their level too, and I think we can be. I'm just not certain Painter is the coach to get us there. As I've said, I'm not ready to fire him yet. If we miss the tournament this year, and next year, the it's time.
Regardless of what transpires this season, the day after our last game Lutz and Gary should be let go and replaced. We need to go after recruiting guru assistants. That means paying them around 300k.
We wont win very many (if any) recruiting battles against IU with our current assistants compared to the 3 they have.
if Purdue misses 2-3 Tourneys in a row, I think you move on and find an up and coming coach, kind of like Ohio State did. I think Holtmann was a phenomenal hire for them.
Regarding assistants, I agree. However, I'd like to point out that Painter does not have a full discretion on hiring assistants nor their salary. I just hope Bobinski decides to pay more attention to our basketball program. Sadly, the football is the king of college sports.
so....why worry about that now? All indications are, we have some nice talent on this team, and should be nowhere close to missing the tourney 2-3 times in a row.
Just to continue the debate; you want numbers... Hope had 22 wins and 27 loses. In his second year he went 4 and 8 including a 6 game losing streak to end the season. Lost the bucket game to Indiana that year as well. In his first 2 years he had 9 wins and 17 loses. Hope's combined Points for versus points against for his Purdue coaching career was 1279 points for versus 1391 points against. Hope's conference record was 13 wins and 19 losses. Coach Brohm on the other hand has 13 wins and 12 loses so far in his second season. His conference record is 9 and 9. He has won the bucket 2 years in a row. His team beat the number 2 team in the Country knocking them out of the college playoff and embarrasing them in the process. His total points for versus points against is 711 points for versus 594 pouints against. Brohm has far exceed Hope already and there really isn't a debate. Purdue basketball is supposed to be better because it is in the state of Indiana where basketball is a religion. If we were located in Texas, then football would be held to a higher standard than basketball. Maybe a double standard to some, but it makes sense that if your state is rich in basketball talent you should be expected to have a leg up and do a little better than most teams in the conference in basketball.
We get 51 million/yr from the BTN contract alone. Bobinski better be able to find a combined 250k to pay our assistants more.
Look- we can’t spend big bucks on everything, all the time. Because The Morgue and The Haze ran the football program into the ground, massive sums are needed to get it competitive again, and it’s already paying off. Yes, better recruiting assistants could be had, but that’s money that’s being used elsewhere right now, and rightly so IMO.
OSU is paying Holtmann crazy money, I think around $6 million? But they pack in 110,000 for every home football game. That’s not us.
You're seriously still peddling this line that because we can recruit in-state kids, it negates the difference of $1, 2, 3+ million dollars in spending? You realize IU spends $5 million more PER year on basketball than we do? Shouldn't they get those discount recruiting costs too you speak of?
You can also argue that during that time, basketball kept the athletic department hanging in their with a sold out Mackey nearly every game. I don't think giving Painter $200k more a year to spend on assistant coaches is really going to break the bank.
I don't think anyone's really knocking Brohm - I think some posters have made some ill-advised comments that football is somehow in great shape while basketball is in shambles. The fact is, people now have these super high expectations with basketball BECAUSE of the success - to where when we lose 3 games to top 20 teams, it's somehow an embarrassment. Whereas BECAUSE of how bad football has been, it seems like things are just going great when in reality it's we have very low expectations. I
Since you seem to know it all, what exactly goes into recruiting costs? Obviously there is travel expenses for AAU tournaments.
How much would it cost Purdue assistants to see RP play? What about TJD? Stewart? Brooks?
How much does it cost to send text messages, call, or facetime?
I would imagine the majority of recruiting money is spent on private jets. You dont need a private jet to get to Center Grove, Fort Wayne, or La Porte.
And the four programs you mentioned all spend $1-3 million more on basketball per year.
Not saying money is everything (because IU is at the top), but I also don't think it's a coincidence that every program you listed spends 7 figures more on basketball per year than we do.
holtman is ~ 3.1/year.
the salary reported in rankings for this year is skewed due to the butler buyout
We're not talking RECRUITING spending. We're talking spending to run the ENTIRE program.
Then Painter needs to sack up and demand more. Brohm just got our AD to pay him 6 million/yr (8th highest paid coach in the country) with a 13-12 record.
I'm talking recruiting spending. Painter's weak point is recruiting. How can he not land elite top talent in state? It has nothing to do with money.
I love how you manage to blame Painter for everything. Now it's his fault he isn't getting a bigger budget. You do realize he went through an entire process of interviewing for a job at Mizzou SOLELY to get standard needs for his program? He didn't even care about how own damn salary, he wanted support for other things. Painter barely makes more than Richard Pitino who has made the NCAA tournament 1 time in 5 years.
So you think recruiting is solely based on the ability to conveniently travel to where the recruit lives? And spending on your program is irrelevant?
I love how you manage to find an excuse for all things Painter. He isnt perfect. Recruiting is a big time weakness. Earlier in this thread you tried to blame that on his budget. Then you backpedaled and said you were talking about the whole budget not just the recruiting budget.
He has the financial resources he needs to land elite talent. This offseason he needs to get two new assistants. If he chooses not to and missed the tournament next year while also flopping again on the recruiting trail, he needs to be fired. He has full control over who is and isnt on his staff.
No, i was refuting your assertion that budget has anything to do with Painter's shortcomings as a recruiter.
A few quick points:
1. Everyone needs to stop thinking the university president is involved in day-to-day spending in an athletic department. Purdue's athletic budget, like most other schools, is independent of the university's. If Purdue has X amount in revenue, then the athletic department can spend X amount. The athletic director oversees this, the President is not dictating.
2. I don't know the specifics of the program's budget. I can simply deduce things. For example, Purdue's assistant coaches salaries add up to a hair under $650k. I'd imagine $650k is Painter's budget then on assistant coaches.
Brad Underwood at Illinois was advertised as having $850k budget for his assistant coaches. $200k may not seem like a huge amount, but it sure as hell is when you're competing against all of these other schools to hire and then also try to keep your coaches.
For example, Michigan State's associate head coach makes close to $300k. So if Painter wanted a high level associate head coach, that would only give him $350k to spend on his 2 other assistants - $175k each if split equally. Michigan State's other 2 assistants make $270k.
So Painter offers X assistant $175k a year to come coach, while Michigan State offers $270k - almost $100k more a year. Which job would you take?
spending more in which category(s)?
is asst pay the biggest drawback for purdue, again?
if asst pay is the biggest complaint,
that's surprising to see it again after being a key issue with the missouri talk/negotiation.
in another thread, the recruiting budget for 08-13 was linked. purdue was mid pack to 8th in big ten... during the burke/cordova time. actually way better than I imagined.
edit:
I see the focus is indeed on asst pay.
I thought the common consensus was that bobinksi didn't have the constraints, and did have the willingness to spend (both unlike burke). is that not the case?
So you don't think a program's budget is related to recruiting? Like if they have a nutritionist on staff? Or they have catered training tables every meal? Or they have top flight assistant coaches? Or state of the art facilities? None of that matters in recruiting?
Also one other thing....
Kentucky spends $1.25 million a year on assistant coaches -- twice as much as Purdue. Kentucky's top assistant, who is also their top recruiter, makes $700k - more than our 3 assistants combined.
It does. We already established we need better assistants and I've already said we need to be willing to pay them. For example, IU's assistants make 310k, 300k, and 275k. Our top assistant makes 250k (lutz).
We have state of the art facilities. We have a nutritionist on staff. That's part of the reason Biggie flipped from MSU. As far as catered training tables I'm not sure. They have massive meal plans though.
Our facilities are not "state of the art". They're simply adequate. We played catch up and renovated a space underground for all of our teams to use (which means 500 athletes are working out in this space). We built a practice gym because the basketball programs had to share the Mackey court - well they only built one regulation court. We're the only program in the Big Ten that doesn't have 2 practice courts available (i.e. one dedicated for men, one dedicated for women), as well as dedicated weight room and training space to both our men's and women's programs. The only team in a 14 team conference.
actually, the Purdue track team (men's and woman's) has had success at random times. Rod Woodson was a beast on the track. And, the men's XC team finished 2nd in the Big 10 championship race, and qualified for Nationals.
Why pay the assistants more? They haven't been able to deliver the top recruits we were after. If they desire more money then earn it.
the problem is the bar is always moving. Fans always want more. It's human nature. I was speaking to an OSU fan Sunday and I asked him if he was happy about the win. He said, "no, i don't think we're very good."
Would Purdue fans be happy with an 11-1 season, the only loss to a team you shouldn't have lost to, and a big 10 title? Definitely, yes, for a little while. Then, that one loss won't sit well...
I believe Purdue is happy with the state of the men's (and woman's -- for some odd reason) basketball program. Most years, they are contenders. We don't hear of any scandals or illegal stuff going on. Players, i think, graduate. They represent the university well. Perhaps they've accepted their "place" on the "let's be real" pecking order...
They are discussing going out and hiring higher priced new assistants, who are better recruiters, at least in theory.
