What about Vince?
- Thread starter Heiner
- Start date
I think it's reasonable to expect Vince back at the front of our solid 4 senior class. It's like CMP said, we've got 6 starters returning (but Biggie won't be one of them).
I expect Vince to have a huge all around season. He could be All BIG imo. (Isaac should benefit from being a senior and finally get to stay on the floor long enough to be a consistent factor, all things considered.) But Vince should be one of our go to guys this year. It's his time to shine, every game. He needs complimentary players around him though and we have plenty. Go Vince! Btfu!
I expect Vince to have a huge all around season. He could be All BIG imo. (Isaac should benefit from being a senior and finally get to stay on the floor long enough to be a consistent factor, all things considered.) But Vince should be one of our go to guys this year. It's his time to shine, every game. He needs complimentary players around him though and we have plenty. Go Vince! Btfu!
I disagree with Painter's conclusion that Cline is one of the six starters. I'm with him on CE, Thompson, Mathias (although I think he typically plays 2-3 more minutes than he should), VE, and Haas. Cline has been better suited coming off the bench in his first two seasons and I think that clearly showed itself to be true down the stretch of this past season with Painter starting him.
Guys, I think VE plays 52 seconds more than he should.
Dakota Mathias is an invaluable player on our team. He doesn't turn it over, he's one of the one of the best 3-point shooters in the Big Ten, and he is an excellent passer. He makes sure our offense runs smoothly, that the ball zips around and it finds the right player at the right time. When he's out of the game, our ball movement usually suffers.
In 32 minutes per game last season, he averaged:
47% FG
45.3% on 3s
82.1% from the line
3.9 rebounds
3.8 assists
9.7 points
His minutes should not be reduced.
In 32 minutes per game last season, he averaged:
47% FG
45.3% on 3s
82.1% from the line
3.9 rebounds
3.8 assists
9.7 points
His minutes should not be reduced.
He never plays well against the best teams (ex.: 5 points vs. Villanova in 30+ minutes, 3 points vs. Kansas in 37 minutes, 5 points vs. Louisville in 20-30 minutes). It's been as clear as day that he can't hang with the big boys (the games that REALLY matter). He's a complementary guard. He can't star when he needs to against the best of the best. Put in as many memes as you want, the proof is in the stat lines for those games (not just this past season, but in crucial games his freshman and sophomore seasons as well). Several other posters have also shared this opinion throughout Mathias' career (believe it or not).
Last edited:
You mean crucial games like this season when we clinched a share of the Big Ten title vs. our rival and he was 7-for-11 from the floor for 19 points and grabbed 7 rebounds?
BREAKING: He struggled in games that we lost. Against Kansas and Louisville basically everyone played poorly, what the heck is your point? If your opinion is that he disappears in big games, it's just simply false. He's played well, hit plenty of big shots in big games throughout his career, vs. Cinci as a freshman in tourney; at Wisconsin as a sophomore; vs. Little Rock; and in many more games this year. Just because we don't win those games doesn't mean he hasn't produced. I have no problem saying he's a complementary guard, but to pick and choose games like you have to say he "can't hang with the big boys in the games that really matter" is a joke.
In his sophomore season, against Maryland, the No. 10-ranked team in the country, he scored 17 points on 7-for-10 shooting and had four assists. Still not a crucial game, though, am I right?
Alstork scored 2 points on 1-13 shooting (0-7 from 3) against perennial powerhouse Green Bay this past year.
Proof is in the stat lines.
Proof is in the stat lines.
Ha. There are people on this board that will define the "big" game as only the ones that we end up losing or when a given player plays poorly. Never fails.
Basically he's criticizing Mathias for not being a future NBA player and just being a really good college guard. Of course, we don't have a future NBA guard on our team to replace him but that's not going to stop some from suggesting a reduction in him minutes.
I love discussion. In the NBA, they have a +/- stat. I'm not sure they do in college or not. but I'm sure there is somebody out there on this board that knows, or if they don't know, could calculate it. What is Dakota's overall +/- stat ??
To me, scoring 17 points is meaningless if his match-up is scoring 35.
and to prove Dakota plays big in the crucial games, what was his + /- stat against top 25 teams last year ? the second time we played IU, they were no longer considered a top 25 team.
and lastly, how did Dakota fare against guards who are projected to be drafted by the NBA ? What was his +/- stat against really great guards ? Admittedly, I could only find 4 players who are projected as NBA draftees, and I'm not sure if Dakota matched up against them: Mason and Jackson of Kansas, Tremble of Maryland, and Morris of ISU.
I want to see a different angle/perspective. I'm more interested in seeing how he fared against a tough individual opponent rather than in that Kansas game.
and for the record, I believe if we played Kansas again on a court outside of Kansas, the score would be a lot closer. Our entire team laid an egg in that game including the coaching staff.
I'd like an objective analysis and answer.
To me, scoring 17 points is meaningless if his match-up is scoring 35.
and to prove Dakota plays big in the crucial games, what was his + /- stat against top 25 teams last year ? the second time we played IU, they were no longer considered a top 25 team.
and lastly, how did Dakota fare against guards who are projected to be drafted by the NBA ? What was his +/- stat against really great guards ? Admittedly, I could only find 4 players who are projected as NBA draftees, and I'm not sure if Dakota matched up against them: Mason and Jackson of Kansas, Tremble of Maryland, and Morris of ISU.
I want to see a different angle/perspective. I'm more interested in seeing how he fared against a tough individual opponent rather than in that Kansas game.
and for the record, I believe if we played Kansas again on a court outside of Kansas, the score would be a lot closer. Our entire team laid an egg in that game including the coaching staff.
I'd like an objective analysis and answer.
Yes, he doesn't play well against the best competition when it matters the most. He has teammates of a similar skill level that play better in those games than he does. For a shooter, he sure doesn't shoot all that well or score big in those games:
-2015 NCAA's vs. Cincinnati (OT): 6 pts. (2-7 FG's) (1-5 3PT's) (1-2 FT's), 3 rebounds, 2 assists, 0 steals, 1 foul, and 2 turnovers in 26 minutes of play
-2016 NCAA's vs. Arkansas-Little Rock (2OT): 12 pts. (3-9 FG's) (3-8 3PT's) (3-4 FT's), 5 rebounds, 4 assists, 0 steals, 4 fouls, and 1 turnover in 34 minutes of play
-2017 NCAA's vs. Vermont: 13 pts. (5-9 FG's) (3-7 3PT's) (0-0 FT's), 5 rebounds, 5 assists, 1 steal, 3 fouls, and 1 turnover in 35 minutes of play
-2017 NCAA's vs. Iowa State: 8 points (3-9 FG's) (2-6 3PT's) (0-1 FT's), 3 rebounds, 7 assists, 1 steal, 1 foul, and 2 turnovers in 35 minutes of play
-2017 NCAA's vs. Kansas: 3 points (1-4 FG's) (1-4 3PT's) (0-0 FT's), 5 rebounds, 7 assists, 1 steal, 2 fouls, and 1 turnover in 31 minutes of play
Points-wise, Mathias is averaging just over 8 PPG in 5 NCAA Tournament games. That's pretty solid but it's not leading-scorer type numbers. By comparison, Vince Edwards has averaged just over 17 PPG in those five NCAA Tournament games (similar MPG to Mathias each of these past two seasons).
Mathias does well in the rebounds and assists category but being that he's essentially the starting 2 guard or wing guard in a program that aspires to make Final Fours and possibly win National Titles, he doesn't produce enough scoring, good shooting, or get to the free-throw line enough to really deserve as much PT as he gets.
Yes, Painter is about defense and not turning the ball over in order to get PT but I'm about the truth: Mathias is not a versatile enough scorer to deserve getting as much PT as he did this past season. That's what a team needs at that position to be a Final Four or National Title contender. He's good but he's not producing so many points that he should be leading the team in MPG.
Last edited:
I don't know where to get the data broken down by game, but his plus/minus per 100 possessions was 8.5 last season, good for third on the team behind Biggie and VE. The players most likely to take Mathias's minutes, Cline and Carsen Edwards, were much worse at 5.9 and 2.1, respectively. I think that CE will make major improvements as a sophomore, but as a freshman he was no where near as effective as Mathias. Mathias's contributions went well beyond what showed up in the box scores.
I'm going to throw this out there. I didn't realize how many assists Dakota had in those games. As Purdue tries to find a position and also playing minutes for Eastern, what's the possibility of using Dakota as our starting PG? he has a great turnover/ assist ratio. he dishes the ball well. he could allow C Edwards or Eastern guard the fast, athletic guards. and PJ could come off the bench in a 6th man role , Eastern could be our 7th man and Cline could sit on the bench.
How would a backcourt of Edwards and Mathias work? it would definitely be big.
How would a backcourt of Edwards and Mathias work? it would definitely be big.
If we go by nag's thinking, Carsen Edwards, who was 6-for-33 in games vs. Villanova, Louisville and Kansas, should see his minutes reduced as well.
He scored 3, 9 and 6 points in those games. In this year's tourney he was 8-for-26 from the field. He just doesn't cut it against top competition. He should play less.
I'm glad our coaching staff does not go by nag's thinking.
He scored 3, 9 and 6 points in those games. In this year's tourney he was 8-for-26 from the field. He just doesn't cut it against top competition. He should play less.
I'm glad our coaching staff does not go by nag's thinking.
Painter has used Dakota as the PG before. He is better at defending the 2-4 and switching than he would be at guarding a PG. Carsen could switch and guard the faster players of course. Painter doesn't really use a traditional type PG, which is why lineup of Carsen, Eastern, and Mathias is very scary for defenses. All of that length can really bother inferior teams. Eastern and Mathias are very good passers and Carsen is always a threat to score.
Mathias brings great leadership and defense. If Biggie leaves, he will likely be the vocal leader. On defense he can shut down or atleast slow down a lot of scorers (provided they aren't speedsters). That isn't easily replaced, and the only threat to take minutes away is Eastern.
The games that Mathias struggled offensively in wasn't just because of him. Mathias doesn't really create his own shot. He can drive, but mostly he passes out of it. Villanova, Louisville, and Kansas were elite defending teams with NBA prospects. The whole team was bothered by the length and athleticism. Vermont and Iowa State were also tough matchups for Purdue. I think Dakota may lose 3-5 minutes to Eastern and I think Cline takes a step back as well. Cline should be coming off of the bench. He was significantly better in that role last year. Cline was an absolute liability on defense as well. It is likely that Cline, PJ, and Dakota take atleast a 3-5 mpg hit each which would free up enough time for Eastern to have an impact. Especially if Carsen gets any increase and Eastern is good enough to earn 20 mpg. I have very high expectations for Eastern. He has great speed for his size, handles the ball well, is an elite passer, and can get his own shot. He isn't near as wild as Carsen, so it is likely that his impact is bigger as a freshman as he will be given more leeway.
As a freshman, I was not impressed with Dakota at all. I thought Cline would quickly replace him. Dakota has greatly improved every year with his ability to hit the big shots, defend, and make good decisions. I think he would start on almost every Big Ten team, if not every one this next year. If he continues to improve and defend, he will stay on the court. It really is that simple. I am not sure why people would say Dakota wasn't deserving of his minutes. Last year there was no better/reliable option to take minutes away. This next year it will be a freshman and a player last year that lost a starting job to Cline, who was just awful at times as a starter. If Carsen does make that big improvement that everybody expects and Eastern steps right in, he will have to give up minutes. It would get even more interesting if Biggie does for some reason decide to come back. The bench becomes crowded which is a complete change from last year.
Well when you're talking about him playing less minutes, the real question is who is better to take those minutes? The answer.....nobody.
This.
Using his theories, we would only be putting 2 or 3 players on the floor at times during crucial games.
Dakota being used as a starting PG has been talked about immensely since he committed. Unless you have a guy on the floor that can effectively guard the opposing PG (think guys like Melo Trimble) when that occurs....it means Dakota is having to guard a guy that more than likely is going to be closer to Carsen Edwards. Do you think Dakota could keep Carsen out of the lane more often than not?
He's an All-B1G guy and the best 3pt shooter in the conference. Less minutes plz.
It's amazing people feel confident enough to share such bad opinions.
I'm all for us blowing out everybody we play so everybody can get fewer minutes.
If the coaching staff went by nag's thinking, we'd never win another game.
ok, let's look at it in a different perspective. from a recruiting stand point, an elite 4/5 * athlete expects to play and receive 15-25 mpg. as a freshmen. A 5* athlete expects to start. If they do not receive that amount, they will transfer or sign elsewhere. Look at Duke and Kansas. They had players who didn't start, so they announced they were transferring. If a coach continues to play seniors over elite freshmen, he will soon find those prize recruits signing elsewhere. You might say JJJ didn't want to be a back-up to Haas or V Edwards.
one of the reasons Purdue was able to sign Eastern was because Painter was able to show that he gave a lot of minutes to Biggie, Haas, V Edwards, and C Edwards as freshmen. Using this logic, Painter is almost forced to give Eastern 15-25 minutes a game or at least as many minutes as he gave Edwards last year. .
I see Purdue in 2017/2018 suffering the Kyle Macy syndrome. We have too many of our best players all playing the same position. we will either see somebody transferring out, or we will see fewer elite guards signing with Purdue . I believe the combo of Eastern and Edwards is scaring some recruits off. If Carmody signed with Purdue, would he start? and at what position? SF ?
I think Dakota is a good guard. He has limitations against some of the faster guards. but with PJ, Eastern, C Edwards in the backcourt, and wheeler and V Edwards on the wing, they are all going to have to give up some minutes. A lot of people would like C Edwards to receive more minutes. But those additional minutes will come at the expense of somebody. Will PJ become like Raphael Davis ?
I guess the question is: who is Painter going to build his team around ? is there going to be a star and the rest are supportive players? if so, who will that star be ? Haas ? V Edwards ? C Edwards? Mathias ? A case could be made for any one of the four.
one of the reasons Purdue was able to sign Eastern was because Painter was able to show that he gave a lot of minutes to Biggie, Haas, V Edwards, and C Edwards as freshmen. Using this logic, Painter is almost forced to give Eastern 15-25 minutes a game or at least as many minutes as he gave Edwards last year. .
I see Purdue in 2017/2018 suffering the Kyle Macy syndrome. We have too many of our best players all playing the same position. we will either see somebody transferring out, or we will see fewer elite guards signing with Purdue . I believe the combo of Eastern and Edwards is scaring some recruits off. If Carmody signed with Purdue, would he start? and at what position? SF ?
I think Dakota is a good guard. He has limitations against some of the faster guards. but with PJ, Eastern, C Edwards in the backcourt, and wheeler and V Edwards on the wing, they are all going to have to give up some minutes. A lot of people would like C Edwards to receive more minutes. But those additional minutes will come at the expense of somebody. Will PJ become like Raphael Davis ?
I guess the question is: who is Painter going to build his team around ? is there going to be a star and the rest are supportive players? if so, who will that star be ? Haas ? V Edwards ? C Edwards? Mathias ? A case could be made for any one of the four.
1. I believe CMP tries to put the best team/lineups out on the floor whether they be freshmen or upperclassmen. This theory of yours suggests he should never play an upperclassmen because it might scare off a really good player considering Purdue. What CMP has shown me is that when a player is the best option, we use them. Whether that's Dakota Mathias as a junior or Carsen Edwards as a freshman. As for JJJ being scared off by Vince and Haas, I full believe all could easily be on the court together. And choosing MSU didn't do much to alleviate this which you believe is such a big factor. I mean, the competition for minutes up there is going to be far greater his first season that it would have been at Purdue now that Bridges is returning. Do you think he's bumping Bridges or Ward from the starting lineup? Do you think he's spending 30 mpg at the 5? If all 5* recruits were scared of competition, they wouldn't congregate at places like Duke, Kentucky, and Kansas.
2. There doesn't have to be a "star". We can just be a really good team that shares the ball and has a 4-5 who can step up and drop 20 on any given night.
Brady Ellingson of Iowa led the B1G in 3PT percentage. What were you saying about "bad opinions"? I've already explained my other reasons for why he should play less than 31.7 MPG.
This is under the assumption that Swanigan is leaving early (which most believe he is). That would make Mathias the returning leader in MPG. Try to keep up.
What does that have to do with Mathias' minutes? Dakota was improved defensively but I don't think anyone will mistake him for Chris Kramer.
In other words you're scheming based on your assumptions. I prefer to deal in reality. The fact is that we don't know who will lead the team in minutes next year. And if "we" don't know yet, you certainly don't.
Did you really just dismiss the ability to play defense as a factor in determining how much someone plays?
Yea, you just did.
Mark Alstork also had games with these outputs this past season:
1. 39 points (15-25 FG's) (3-9 3PT's) (6-6 FT's) in 35 minutes of play
2. 33 points (10-18 FG's) (2-5 3PT's) (11-11 FT's) in 33 minutes of play
3. 30 points (10-19 FG's) (4-7 3PT's) (6-7 FT's) in 38 minutes of play
4. 29 points (6-17 FG's) (2-9 3PT's) (15-20 FT's) in 33 minutes of play
5. 28 points (8-13 FG's) (5-8 3PT's) (7-8 FT's) in 39 minutes of play
6. 27 points (10-19 FG's) (5-9 3PT's) (2-3 FT's) in 29 minutes of play
7. 27 points (9-20 FG's) (4-8 3PT's) (5-7 FT's) in 34 minutes of play
Mathias' career-high game in scoring is 25 points. He's never scored as many as 20 points in any other game while at Purdue. He certainly did not get to the free-throw line with the frequency that Alstork did this past season. So, there are reasons why I wanted to see Alstork at Purdue and why I thought it would make them a better team next season.
Similar threads
