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What about Vince?

People overrate his defensive prowess. How many points did Kansas' backcourt rotation (if you include the 3 man Mykhailiuk and the wing Vick) score against Purdue? They combined for 74 POINTS against the Mathias-led Purdue defense:

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/boxscore?gameId=400947321

And your solution to us getting lit up by the NPOTY and what most thought was the top backcourt in the nation is to play our best perimeter defender less?

Let me guess, we had guards sitting on our bench that were just waiting for the opportunity to drop 30 on Kansas that night right?

Your mind is a fascinating place man.
 
BTW, this all started because someone couldn't accept the idea that Purdue might be better off with Mathias playing a few less minutes next season. I think that's telling of how sensitive some fans are for certain players.
No, this all started because you said something silly, which I'm finding is quite common. Our best players should play the most minutes, and Mathias is one of our best players. On Kentucky, he wouldn't be. On Purdue, he is. Whether it's zone, the impossible schedule you suggested, all of these random transfers you fall in love with, Mathias, the list goes on and on, you just don't live in reality.
 
1. I believe CMP tries to put the best team/lineups out on the floor whether they be freshmen or upperclassmen. This theory of yours suggests he should never play an upperclassmen because it might scare off a really good player considering Purdue. What CMP has shown me is that when a player is the best option, we use them. Whether that's Dakota Mathias as a junior or Carsen Edwards as a freshman. As for JJJ being scared off by Vince and Haas, I full believe all could easily be on the court together. And choosing MSU didn't do much to alleviate this which you believe is such a big factor. I mean, the competition for minutes up there is going to be far greater his first season that it would have been at Purdue now that Bridges is returning. Do you think he's bumping Bridges or Ward from the starting lineup? Do you think he's spending 30 mpg at the 5? If all 5* recruits were scared of competition, they wouldn't congregate at places like Duke, Kentucky, and Kansas.

2. There doesn't have to be a "star". We can just be a really good team that shares the ball and has a 4-5 who can step up and drop 20 on any given night.


I will slightly disagree. What I've seen from Painter is a very bad philosophy of telling everybody to throw the ball inside even when he's not our best player/option. This led to sagging zone defenses and a lot of intercepted passes inside. This was better last year, but in previous years, our offense was very predictable.

As for JJJ, he signed with MSU when everybody and their brother and their brother's mother's dog groomer's girl friend thought and expected Bridges to turn pro. I fully expected JJJ to request his release when Bridges made his announcement to stay. It's not a matter of not having enough minutes to go around. It's a matter that now, he's not going to immediately get starter's minutes.

And yes, Painter has shown he's not afraid to bench regulars in favor of giving playing time to freshmen. Just ask Scott, Stephens, Davis and Smotherman. Before being suspended, Smotherman was lucky if he played 4 minutes. That's not what he planned when he redshirted in order to get more playing time. Davis was limited due to his injury. Stephens and Scott transferred rather than sit on the bench, as did that player who went to IUPUI. So yes, I expect Painter to give Eastern And Wheeler more minutes than a lot of Purdue fans would like. And it will be at the expense of our seniors. I expect Vince and not Dakota to be our minutes leader.

So back to DAkota. I expect to see him play fewer minutes, but he will be refreshed and more efficient as a result ! I expect PJ TO ALSO play fewer minutes. And Cline to play a minimum amount of minutes. Cline's lack of defense takes away from his shooting ability. We no longer need his 3point shooting as we have many other players who can take that shot including Haarms.

I have confidence Wheeler, Haarms And Eastern will prove they are worthy of the minutes they receive. But with depth, comes lower starter's minutes.
 
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I will slightly disagree. What I've seen from Painter is a very bad philosophy of telling everybody to throw the ball inside even when he's not our best player/option. This led to sagging zone defenses and a lot of intercepted passes inside. This was better last year, but in previous years, our offense was very predictable.

As for JJJ, he signed with MSU when everybody and their brother and their brother's mother's dog groomer's girl friend thought and expected Bridges to turn pro. I fully expected JJJ to request his release when Bridges made his announcement to stay. It's not a matter of not having enough minutes to go around. It's a matter that now, he's not going to immediately get starter's minutes.

And yes, Painter has shown he's not afraid to bench regulars in favor of giving playing time to freshmen. Just ask Scott, Stephens, Davis and Smotherman. Before being suspended, Smotherman was lucky if he played 4 minutes. That's not what he planned when he redshirted in order to get more playing time. Davis was limited due to his injury. Stephens and Scott transferred rather than sit on the bench, as did that player who went to IUPUI. So yes, I expect Painter to give Eastern And Wheeler more minutes than a lot of Purdue fans would like. And it will be at the expense of our seniors. I expect Vince and not Dakota to be our minutes leader.

So back to DAkota. I expect to see him play fewer minutes, but he will be refreshed and more efficient as a result ! I expect PJ TO ALSO play fewer minutes. And Cline to play a minimum amount of minutes. Cline's lack of defense takes away from his shooting ability. We no longer need his 3point shooting as we have many other players who can take that shot including Haarms.

I have confidence Wheeler, Haarms And Eastern will prove they are worthy of the minutes they receive. But with depth, comes lower starter's minutes.

You don't think JJJ gets starter minutes? You are nuts. He is a top 10 incoming freshman. Higher rated than Bridges and Ward. He will play the 4 and Bridges will slide over to SF, his natural position. JJJ may think he is a SF, but he will be better served if he can play like a stretch four and use his speed and athleticism to mismatch opposing 4s. Ward will start the five. There is no way a healthy JJJ sees less than 25 mpg, and will possibly be over 30 mpg. He is far too good, and would get big minutes on any team in the country.

JJJ will pull stats from Bridges. Bridges likely should have left this year, but only time will tell. MSU is glut with depth at the 4-5, which is the exact opposite of last year.

I will buy Vince as the minutes leader if he doesn't start off struggling like he did last year and Biggie leaves. Painter will play the best players, and if Eastern and Wheeler can learn the defense quickly, they will find time. I am curious to see if Wheeler red shirts or not. I think he doesn't and manages 10-20 minutes a game, provided Biggie goes. If Biggie stays, I think Wheeler takes a red shirt.

Haarms is coming along better than ever expected, but I don't know that he has done enough to pass Haas, Taylor, Ewing yet. Even if Biggie goes pro, there is a lot to be excited about.
 
I fully expected JJJ to request his release when Bridges made his announcement to stay. It's not a matter of not having enough minutes to go around. It's a matter that now, he's not going to immediately get starter's minutes.



And Cline to play a minimum amount of minutes. Cline's lack of defense takes away from his shooting ability. We no longer need his 3point shooting as we have many other players who can take that shot including Haarms.
You really thought that? They will be on the floor together and they will be dynamite.

As for Cline, you couldn't be more wrong.
 
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You really thought that? They will be on the floor together and they will be dynamite.

As for Cline, you couldn't be more wrong.

I've seen a lot of Prima Donna recruits lately if a feather falls the wrong way ask for a release of their scholarship. And, yes, I anticipated JJJ would follow the path others have created. I forecasted JJJ to be either a one or two and done.

The question is, if a 5*player wants to start at SF, and the coach tells him after he signed his loi that he will play PF instead, how is that player going to respond? Do you expect JJJ to be happy to slide over to accommodate Bridges? Do you believe JJJ and Bridges will share time at SF? Or worse yet, could Ward be PF, and JJJ could be asked to slide to center.

As for Cline, sorry, but I just don't see much playing time available for him. He is not a candidate to play SF or PG. I see Dakota's time remaining about the same. I see CEdwards playing time increasing. I see Eastern getting 20 minutes. And I see pj getting 20 minutes. All that means is Cline will be seeing a lot less time
 
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I've seen a lot of Prima Donna recruits lately if a feather falls the wrong way ask for a release of their scholarship. And, yes, I anticipated JJJ would follow the path others have created. I forecasted JJJ to be either a one or two and done.

The question is, if a 5*player wants to start at SF, and the coach tells him after he signed his loi that he will play PF instead, how is that player going to respond? Do you expect JJJ to be happy to slide over to accommodate Bridges? Do you believe JJJ and Bridges will share time at SF? Or worse yet, could Ward be PF, and JJJ could be asked to slide to center.

As for Cline, sorry, but I just don't see much playing time available for him. He is not a candidate to play SF or PG. I see Dakota's time remaining about the same. I see CEdwards playing time increasing. I see Eastern getting 20 minutes. And I see pj getting 20 minutes. All that means is Cline will be seeing a lot less time
JJJ is a 4 and Bridges is a 3.

Conversation over
 
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Yes sir coach Izzo ! And ward is a 5 and I am #1
Bridges was a small forward in high school. You can look it up on 247 and any other recruiting site.

Ward is a 5 because he can't shoot a jump shot and can rebound.
 
Because of Ward and Bridges does that automatically make JJJ a 4 ? And what if JJJ was told when he was recruited, he'd be able to be a 3 ? Or maybe JJJ would prefer to play the 5 ! The guy I feel bad for was Bowen who was supposed to sign on as the 3 that plan went out the window!

A really bad year for izzo.
 
I'm not arguing about Bridges! I'm arguing about what position JJJ thought he was going to play when he signed with MSU! What is JJJ's preferred and natural position? Some have implied JJJ wanted to play SF!

Many people look at Haarm's height and size and said he is Haas replacement st the 5. But Haarm's game is more oriented to the perimeter and the 4!

I'm not saying I know the best position for either JJJ or Haarm's! But I also doubt many people on this board do either!
 
I've seen a lot of Prima Donna recruits lately if a feather falls the wrong way ask for a release of their scholarship. And, yes, I anticipated JJJ would follow the path others have created. I forecasted JJJ to be either a one or two and done.

The question is, if a 5*player wants to start at SF, and the coach tells him after he signed his loi that he will play PF instead, how is that player going to respond? Do you expect JJJ to be happy to slide over to accommodate Bridges? Do you believe JJJ and Bridges will share time at SF? Or worse yet, could Ward be PF, and JJJ could be asked to slide to center.

As for Cline, sorry, but I just don't see much playing time available for him. He is not a candidate to play SF or PG. I see Dakota's time remaining about the same. I see CEdwards playing time increasing. I see Eastern getting 20 minutes. And I see pj getting 20 minutes. All that means is Cline will be seeing a lot less time
http://www.thepostgame.com/jaren-jackson-wants-miles-bridges-stay-msu
You should spend less time speculating and more time doing research. As I said, they will be on the floor together and, along with Ward, will be a formidable front line. Izzo is doing just fine.
You said we would no longer need Cline's 3 point shooting because we now have.........Haarms? He will be lucky to see the floor. Eastern is not a shooter yet. Wheeler is a wildcard at this point depending on who you believe........certainly not a volume 3 point player as a freshman. So that leaves us with the same 3 point shooters this year as last year. Actually less if Biggie leaves. Cline will get his time and his shots.
You and Nage should get together and debate.........maybe a time share at the beach.
 
http://www.thepostgame.com/jaren-jackson-wants-miles-bridges-stay-msu
You should spend less time speculating and more time doing research. As I said, they will be on the floor together and, along with Ward, will be a formidable front line. Izzo is doing just fine.
You said we would no longer need Cline's 3 point shooting because we now have.........Haarms? He will be lucky to see the floor. Eastern is not a shooter yet. Wheeler is a wildcard at this point depending on who you believe........certainly not a volume 3 point player as a freshman. So that leaves us with the same 3 point shooters this year as last year. Actually less if Biggie leaves. Cline will get his time and his shots.
You and Nage should get together and debate.........maybe a time share at the beach.


Oh I believe you ! Yup! Look who is getting minutes. Mathias can shoot the three. V Edwards can shoot the three. haarms is a perimeter big player who can shoot the three. C Edwards can shoot the three. PJ has made some clutch threes. just because Eastern hasn't played for Purdue doesn't mean he can't shoot the three. how many players do you need on the court at one time to shoot the three ? my preference is 3 !

Cline surely will get his time if we need a quick three, otherwise, he'll be sitting on the bench. Cline is a liability on defense, and his time on the court will be taken by increased time for C Edwards and minutes given to Eastern. Simply stated, we don't need Cline's 3 point shooting, as Matthias and C Edwards will be taking those shots.

Why is that so hard to see ?
 
Oh I believe you ! Yup! Look who is getting minutes. Mathias can shoot the three. V Edwards can shoot the three. haarms is a perimeter big player who can shoot the three. C Edwards can shoot the three. PJ has made some clutch threes. just because Eastern hasn't played for Purdue doesn't mean he can't shoot the three. how many players do you need on the court at one time to shoot the three ? my preference is 3 !

Cline surely will get his time if we need a quick three, otherwise, he'll be sitting on the bench. Cline is a liability on defense, and his time on the court will be taken by increased time for C Edwards and minutes given to Eastern. Simply stated, we don't need Cline's 3 point shooting, as Matthias and C Edwards will be taking those shots.

Why is that so hard to see ?

Carsen was 49 of 144 from 3 (34%)
Cline was 45 of 109 (41.3%)

Although I do agree Cline loses minutes, your reasoning is not very good. Cline was a far superior shooter from 3, Carsen was just a volume shooter. Unless Carsen can up that percentage, you don't just scoff at 41% from 3. Purdue enjoyed a lot of success with a lineup where every player was a threat to shoot the three. Haas doesn't do that. Haarms may be a good shooter, but as it stands right now, nobody even knows if he will see meaningful minutes. Your entire argument is based on an absolute uncertainty. Cline's three point shooting is the reason he will see the court.

Why will Cline's minutes reduce? His defense. He was embarrassingly bad on defense. Often seemed lost and was lazy/slow on the switches. His man often torched Purdue and he was clearly the weakest link on defense. If Carsen can continue to improve his defense and decision making, it is a no brainer that his minutes will go up. Eastern has incredible size for a guard and if he can pick up the defense quickly, he will see a lot of minutes. He isn't a pure shooter, so if he can't match the chemistry, Painter will go with PJ and Cline who have shown for years now that they can.

Eastern expects to play early, and 20 mpg is a safe prediction for the incoming freshman. He wants to run the point, so let's look at the guards. He may end up in a three guard lineup guarding the 3, which is just a fancy way of saying he will play the small forward position if that is what is best for the team.

PJ (28.6) will likely see a slight reduction in minutes. PJ's biggest strengths are a team leading 3.92 assist/turnover (which was almost a full 1.0 ahead of second place Mathias). PJ took care of the ball on a team that turned the ball over way too much. PJ also shot 53/132 from three for 40%. He is a strong shooter and a good defender, but Carsen is so much quicker, allowing him to defend more athletic gaurds.

Cline (20 mpg) was a starter by default. He does not currently possess the defensive prowess to keep 20+ mpg or start unless he improves. Painter likes shooters, but if Biggie leaves, defense will become much more important. I can't see him dipping less than 15 mpg though. Too talented of a shooter and really plays well off the bench.

Carsen (23 mpg) is the guard that likely sees an increase in minutes. He was extremely frustrating at times making mind boggling awful decisions and head scratching turnovers. Carsen was an OK defender, but mostly because his speed. If he learns the system and commits to defense, he could become an elite defender. Painter recently commented that Carsen could reach 2000 points at Purdue. Ready to score right off of the bus. If he continues to put work on the defensive end and improve his basketball IQ he could be a star. There is usually a big jump in improvement from freshman to sophomore year. If Carsen can improve, he will be scary. The problem? Towards the end of the year he continued to make the same mistakes and didn't seem to improve his decision making. Also, If he can improve that 3 point shooting about 5-7%, that would make him a bad bad man.

Mathias (31.8 mpg) was incredibly important to the team last year. One of the best defenders in the Big Ten, which will always get minutes in the Painter system. 72-159 from 3 for a blistering 45%. 133 assists to 53 turnovers. It is hard to imagine Mathias dropping below 30 mpg. He will be the vocal leader if Biggie leaves. The combination of shooting/defense/passing/leadership will ensure big minutes.

Eastern is the wildcard. His best asset is an ability to drive and pass. He has very good size for a guard. Good shooter, but not great. He certainly will not be a volume shooter like Carsen. The most exciting thing is his ability and willingness to defend. Adding a player like Eastern will really help against atheltic teams that torch Purdue when they switch. Should come in as a freshman and be a far superior defender to Cline. Can pass and handle the ball well enough to run point, and that is also a plus! A safe prediction is 15 mpg and that is a bit on the conservative side.
 
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People overrate his defensive prowess. How many points did Kansas' backcourt rotation (if you include the 3 man Mykhailiuk and the wing Vick) score against Purdue? They combined for 74 POINTS against the Mathias-led Purdue defense:

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/boxscore?gameId=400947321
It's official. You are hands down the biggest chucklehead on here and have essentially stolen the crown from kesselschmeck.

No defense is perfect but to dimiss his defensive abilities like you are just shows how very little you know about the game of basketball.
 
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He never plays well against the best teams (ex.: 5 points vs. Villanova in 30+ minutes, 3 points vs. Kansas in 37 minutes, 5 points vs. Louisville in 20-30 minutes). It's been as clear as day that he can't hang with the big boys (the games that REALLY matter). He's a complementary guard. He can't star when he needs to against the best of the best. Put in as many memes as you want, the proof is in the stat lines for those games (not just this past season, but in crucial games his freshman and sophomore seasons as well). Several other posters have also shared this opinion throughout Mathias' career (believe it or not).

I totally get your point, but you have to know this probabky isnt the place to be making this point. Lol Never going to get any traction here for reasons that probably wont ever change.
 
Oh I believe you ! Yup! Look who is getting minutes. Mathias can shoot the three. V Edwards can shoot the three. haarms is a perimeter big player who can shoot the three. C Edwards can shoot the three. PJ has made some clutch threes. just because Eastern hasn't played for Purdue doesn't mean he can't shoot the three. how many players do you need on the court at one time to shoot the three ? my preference is 3 !

Cline surely will get his time if we need a quick three, otherwise, he'll be sitting on the bench. Cline is a liability on defense, and his time on the court will be taken by increased time for C Edwards and minutes given to Eastern. Simply stated, we don't need Cline's 3 point shooting, as Matthias and C Edwards will be taking those shots.

Why is that so hard to see ?

Amen
 
I've seen a lot of Prima Donna recruits lately if a feather falls the wrong way ask for a release of their scholarship. And, yes, I anticipated JJJ would follow the path others have created. I forecasted JJJ to be either a one or two and done.

The question is, if a 5*player wants to start at SF, and the coach tells him after he signed his loi that he will play PF instead, how is that player going to respond? Do you expect JJJ to be happy to slide over to accommodate Bridges? Do you believe JJJ and Bridges will share time at SF? Or worse yet, could Ward be PF, and JJJ could be asked to slide to center.

As for Cline, sorry, but I just don't see much playing time available for him. He is not a candidate to play SF or PG. I see Dakota's time remaining about the same. I see CEdwards playing time increasing. I see Eastern getting 20 minutes. And I see pj getting 20 minutes. All that means is Cline will be seeing a lot less time

If one were to look at things realistically instead of through Purdue paibted spectacles, there really is no place in the rotation for Cline.

The two guard spots should be occupied primarily by these 4 players:
PJ Thompson/ Nojel Eastern
Dakota / Carsen

Unless you believe Painter will play Cline at the 3 alot, I dont see how Cline gets too many minutes this year but thats just me. Purdue is loaded at guard right now, and Clines one strength(shooting) overlaps too much with what Purdue has alot of already

Dakotas perineter defense, Carsens explosiveness and playmaking, PJs decision making and ability to be a PG, and Nojels length and defensive versatility all trump Clines shooting imo.
 
I totally get your point, but you have to know this probabky isnt the place to be making this point. Lol Never going to get any traction here for reasons that probably wont ever change.

I don't think it hurts to share one's opinion if they believe it to be true (or very close to the truth). If it sways at least one fan that reads it (to think that maybe Mathias should play a little bit less or in different role offensively), then I'm happy to share my opinions, even if I know it will bring about some "usual suspect" contrarians.
 
Dakota Mathias is an invaluable player on our team. He doesn't turn it over, he's one of the one of the best 3-point shooters in the Big Ten, and he is an excellent passer. He makes sure our offense runs smoothly, that the ball zips around and it finds the right player at the right time. When he's out of the game, our ball movement usually suffers.

In 32 minutes per game last season, he averaged:
47% FG
45.3% on 3s
82.1% from the line
3.9 rebounds
3.8 assists
9.7 points

His minutes should not be reduced.
Ya but he did all that in the first 29 minutes. Just imagine the improvement in his per minute averages if sat those last three. Then he might be worthy of more minutes.
 
If one were to look at things realistically instead of through Purdue paibted spectacles, there really is no place in the rotation for Cline.

The two guard spots should be occupied primarily by these 4 players:
PJ Thompson/ Nojel Eastern
Dakota / Carsen

Unless you believe Painter will play Cline at the 3 alot, I dont see how Cline gets too many minutes this year but thats just me. Purdue is loaded at guard right now, and Clines one strength(shooting) overlaps too much with what Purdue has alot of already

Dakotas perineter defense, Carsens explosiveness and playmaking, PJs decision making and ability to be a PG, and Nojels length and defensive versatility all trump Clines shooting imo.
What does it have to do with Purdue painted spectacles? Every player that you are talking about is a Boiler.

I'm looking forward to seeing Eastern play, but he is totally unproven at the Big Ten level. He has to go out and prove that he is more worthy of minutes than Cline (who hopefully will be improved over last season).

Carsen has to stop wasting possessions to move ahead of Cline. The reality is that he was not as good as the hype last year and he has to get much better. I do agree that the potential is there, but right now there is a big gap between potential and performance. I think he'll be up to the challenge and will be a much better player, but I won't know that until he proves it.

I do tend to think that Cline's minutes will mostly come from the 3, but I will be very surprised if he is out of the rotation. I saw his defensive struggles as well, but I think it was more a case were he struggled with a few bad match-ups that we remember than a case where he was lost on D or struggled all the time. I'm hoping that with more depth, the whole D can play a little more aggressively and do a better job of supporting Cline when he is in a bad match-up.
 
I don't think it hurts to share one's opinion if they believe it to be true (or very close to the truth). If it sways at least one fan that reads it (to think that maybe Mathias should play a little bit less or in different role offensively), then I'm happy to share my opinions, even if I know it will bring about some "usual suspect" contrarians.
It's one thing to share opinions, you force yours down everyone throats and won't even entertain counter arguments. So basically your response here not only further confirms you're a chucklehead, but a hypocritical one at that.
 
What does it have to do with Purdue painted spectacles? Every player that you are talking about is a Boiler.

I'm looking forward to seeing Eastern play, but he is totally unproven at the Big Ten level. He has to go out and prove that he is more worthy of minutes than Cline (who hopefully will be improved over last season).

Carsen has to stop wasting possessions to move ahead of Cline. The reality is that he was not as good as the hype last year and he has to get much better. I do agree that the potential is there, but right now there is a big gap between potential and performance. I think he'll be up to the challenge and will be a much better player, but I won't know that until he proves it.

I do tend to think that Cline's minutes will mostly come from the 3, but I will be very surprised if he is out of the rotation. I saw his defensive struggles as well, but I think it was more a case were he struggled with a few bad match-ups that we remember than a case where he was lost on D or struggled all the time. I'm hoping that with more depth, the whole D can play a little more aggressively and do a better job of supporting Cline when he is in a bad match-up.
You are exactly right about Cline's defense. His struggles were against superior athletes, not because of a lack of effort or focus (which was Carsen's problem). His defense on and off the ball was much improved from the previous year. Some fans only remember him getting beat........ If they watched him on every play they would have seen a player who was pretty good with his lateral movement and off the ball defense. I expect his defense to keep improving as he continues to work on his body and his defensive mechanics. He will never be able to effectively guard the superior athlete consistently........but Dakota struggles with that as well.
 
You are exactly right about Cline's defense. His struggles were against superior athletes, not because of a lack of effort or focus (which was Carsen's problem). His defense on and off the ball was much improved from the previous year. Some fans only remember him getting beat........ If they watched him on every play they would have seen a player who was pretty good with his lateral movement and off the ball defense. I expect his defense to keep improving as he continues to work on his body and his defensive mechanics. He will never be able to effectively guard the superior athlete consistently........but Dakota struggles with that as well.
And PJ does as well. Even Vince, Swanigan, and Haas were challenged to guard quick, well rounded players in space. It is a credit to the coaching that for the most part the team overcame the weaknesses of the individual players on defense.
 
I don't think it hurts to share one's opinion if they believe it to be true (or very close to the truth). If it sways at least one fan that reads it (to think that maybe Mathias should play a little bit less or in different role offensively), then I'm happy to share my opinions, even if I know it will bring about some "usual suspect" contrarians.

You might want to consider that others aren't just being contrarians. Maybe you just typically offer really suspect "opinions".

As far as looking at things through Purdue-colored glasses, that really makes no sense. We're Purdue fans, not just fans of individual players. We want what's best for our team. Most of us just seem to know that Dakota is far better than our alternatives. You seem to disagree which is fine but that doesn't mean that others are somehow aligned with Dakota against all other Purdue players in spite of what's best for the team. Maybe we just think that Dakota has earned the minutes he's getting, we have no better alternatives, and you just don't really understand that much of what's going on?
 
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Carsen was 49 of 144 from 3 (34%)
Cline was 45 of 109 (41.3%)

Although I do agree Cline loses minutes, your reasoning is not very good. Cline was a far superior shooter from 3, Carsen was just a volume shooter. Unless Carsen can up that percentage, you don't just scoff at 41% from 3. Purdue enjoyed a lot of success with a lineup where every player was a threat to shoot the three. Haas doesn't do that. Haarms may be a good shooter, but as it stands right now, nobody even knows if he will see meaningful minutes. Your entire argument is based on an absolute uncertainty. Cline's three point shooting is the reason he will see the court.

Why will Cline's minutes reduce? His defense. He was embarrassingly bad on defense. Often seemed lost and was lazy/slow on the switches. His man often torched Purdue and he was clearly the weakest link on defense. If Carsen can continue to improve his defense and decision making, it is a no brainer that his minutes will go up. Eastern has incredible size for a guard and if he can pick up the defense quickly, he will see a lot of minutes. He isn't a pure shooter, so if he can't match the chemistry, Painter will go with PJ and Cline who have shown for years now that they can.

Eastern expects to play early, and 20 mpg is a safe prediction for the incoming freshman. He wants to run the point, so let's look at the guards. He may end up in a three guard lineup guarding the 3, which is just a fancy way of saying he will play the small forward position if that is what is best for the team.

PJ (28.6) will likely see a slight reduction in minutes. PJ's biggest strengths are a team leading 3.92 assist/turnover (which was almost a full 1.0 ahead of second place Mathias). PJ took care of the ball on a team that turned the ball over way too much. PJ also shot 53/132 from three for 40%. He is a strong shooter and a good defender, but Carsen is so much quicker, allowing him to defend more athletic gaurds.

Cline (20 mpg) was a starter by default. He does not currently possess the defensive prowess to keep 20+ mpg or start unless he improves. Painter likes shooters, but if Biggie leaves, defense will become much more important. I can't see him dipping less than 15 mpg though. Too talented of a shooter and really plays well off the bench.

Carsen (23 mpg) is the guard that likely sees an increase in minutes. He was extremely frustrating at times making mind boggling awful decisions and head scratching turnovers. Carsen was an OK defender, but mostly because his speed. If he learns the system and commits to defense, he could become an elite defender. Painter recently commented that Carsen could reach 2000 points at Purdue. Ready to score right off of the bus. If he continues to put work on the defensive end and improve his basketball IQ he could be a star. There is usually a big jump in improvement from freshman to sophomore year. If Carsen can improve, he will be scary. The problem? Towards the end of the year he continued to make the same mistakes and didn't seem to improve his decision making. Also, If he can improve that 3 point shooting about 5-7%, that would make him a bad bad man.

Mathias (31.8 mpg) was incredibly important to the team last year. One of the best defenders in the Big Ten, which will always get minutes in the Painter system. 72-159 from 3 for a blistering 45%. 133 assists to 53 turnovers. It is hard to imagine Mathias dropping below 30 mpg. He will be the vocal leader if Biggie leaves. The combination of shooting/defense/passing/leadership will ensure big minutes.

Eastern is the wildcard. His best asset is an ability to drive and pass. He has very good size for a guard. Good shooter, but not great. He certainly will not be a volume shooter like Carsen. The most exciting thing is his ability and willingness to defend. Adding a player like Eastern will really help against atheltic teams that torch Purdue when they switch. Should come in as a freshman and be a far superior defender to Cline. Can pass and handle the ball well enough to run point, and that is also a plus! A safe prediction is 15 mpg and that is a bit on the conservative side.

I can agree with all of that. and that is why I say Cline will see his minutes significantly reduced. it's not about his 3 point shooting. it's about the other players on the team increasing their roles. Painter is going to give Eastern minutes early on to see what he's capable of. and when Eastern is on the court, he will probably be pared with Dakota or PJ. I really can't see a backcourt tandem of Eastern and cline next year. C Edwards ' 3 point % was terrible last year, but that didn't stop him from firing away - kind of like Eugene Parker. And yes, Edwards made a lot of head scratching mistakes. I envision Edwards to improve his game , improve his decision making, improve his shooting ability resulting in improving his minutes. Edwards could see 25+ minutes. And whose minutes is he going to take from? most likely from Cline and PJ.

With the arrival of Eastern and the hopeful emergence of Edwards, I have to believe Cline will be the odd man left out. yes, his 3 point shooting % is great, but his defense is not. And Purdue cannot afford to play a one dimensional player.

I'll have to ask, what is more probable and likely? Cline will improve his defense to another level and also become a great ball handler? or that C Edwards will stop making stupid mistakes, stop forcing his shots, and elevate his game to a more consistent level that he has shown flashes of being able to do?

I don't really have anything against Cline. I just believe C Edwards will significantly improve his game and will be a better option. And when we need a three, we'll have C Edwards, PJ, V Edwards and Mathias on the court taking those shots rather than bringing in Cline.

I'm of the opinion your sophomore year is your most important year. That is the year you are supposed to elevate your game and eliminate your freshmen mistakes. Cline doesn't make many mistakes, but I didn't really see him elevating his game like I witnessed Dakota do. the same could be said about Stephens. Stephens didn't elevate his game and saw his role reduced. I believe C Edwards will be given a chance early in the season to see if he eliminated the mistakes from his game. And if he proves he did, his minutes will increase. if not, Painter will look for alternatives like PJ, Cline and eastern for additional minutes. Many had said Smotherman was a very gifted and athletic player. But he wasn't able to translate those talents to increased playing time. Cline's minutes are totally dependent on C Edwards' development. And I'm hopeful and expecting Edwards to make that expected leap.
 
What does it have to do with Purdue painted spectacles? Every player that you are talking about is a Boiler.

I'm looking forward to seeing Eastern play, but he is totally unproven at the Big Ten level. He has to go out and prove that he is more worthy of minutes than Cline (who hopefully will be improved over last season).

Carsen has to stop wasting possessions to move ahead of Cline. The reality is that he was not as good as the hype last year and he has to get much better. I do agree that the potential is there, but right now there is a big gap between potential and performance. I think he'll be up to the challenge and will be a much better player, but I won't know that until he proves it.

I do tend to think that Cline's minutes will mostly come from the 3, but I will be very surprised if he is out of the rotation. I saw his defensive struggles as well, but I think it was more a case were he struggled with a few bad match-ups that we remember than a case where he was lost on D or struggled all the time. I'm hoping that with more depth, the whole D can play a little more aggressively and do a better job of supporting Cline when he is in a bad match-up.

this is a second reason I see a decline in Cline's minutes. You talk about those bad match-ups for Cline. Well, it's the coach's job to eliminate those bad match-ups. and how do you eliminate them? You play faster players in some match-ups. You play V Edwards and not Cline against taller players at the 3. You insert defensive minded players. I sure hope Cline is NOT used as a 3. Somebody on this board said Bridges was a 3. I sure don't want to see a Cline verses Bridges match-up. that could get ugly fast. and because Painter doesn't like playing a zone, I can't see other Purdue players coming over to cover for or help Cline on defense in those bad matchups. .

I believe we can all agree basketball is a game of match-ups. In what match-ups is Cline best suited to succeed?
 
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this is a second reason I see a decline in Cline's minutes. You talk about those bad match-ups for Cline. Well, it's the coach's job to eliminate those bad match-ups. and how do you eliminate them? You play faster players in some match-ups. You play V Edwards and not Cline against taller players at the 3. You insert defensive minded players. I sure hope Cline is NOT used as a 3. Somebody on this board said Bridges was a 3. I sure don't want to see a Cline verses Bridges match-up. that could get ugly fast. and because Painter doesn't like playing a zone, I can't see other Purdue players coming over to cover for or help Cline on defense in those bad matchups. .

I believe we can all agree basketball is a game of match-ups. In what match-ups is Cline best suited to succeed?
Purdue may not technically play zone, but Purdue clearly plays help defense. Cline is going to have to use that help to his advantage to be successful and he generally does.

Aside from the newcomers who we haven't seen, who on Purdue's roster can match up with Bridges? (Nobody as far as I can see.).
 
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Purdue may not technically play zone, but Purdue clearly plays help defense. Cline is going to have to use that help to his advantage to be successful and he generally does.

Aside from the newcomers who we haven't seen, who on Purdue's roster can match up with Bridges? (Nobody as far as I can see.).


That's what Painter gets paid those millions to figure out. Swanigan had fun eating Ward's shorts last year. I doubt Haas will have as much fun. It was pointed out MSU may likely start Bridges, JJJ and Ward this year in their front court. I would use V Edwards and maybe Eastern or Mathias to defend Bridges. But in doing so, who would defend JJJ ? a combo of Haarms /Taylor ? MSU is going to present some very bad match-ups against Purdue this year. Do you go into a full court press an try to deny Bridges the ball? That's why we play the game, and hope for the best.
 
BTW, this all started because someone couldn't accept the idea that Purdue might be better off with Mathias playing a few less minutes next season. I think that's telling of how sensitive some fans are for certain players.

I tend to agree with Nage here. 2-3 less minutes per game would still place Mathias in the range of 29 to even 30 minutes per game. If he drops those 2-3 minutes per game, it may actually mean Purdue is playing better due to the influx of players and Carsen evolving more as a rounded player.

What I think is lost is that I don't believe he is saying Mathias should get less minutes because he is a poor player (if he did, then I am mistaken and missed that aspect of the conversation)...rather Mathias getting 2-3 less minutes per game may in fact mean the guys coming in are able to maintain the high level of play that Mathias brings with his passing, defense, and shooting. THAT wouldn't be a bad thing for the program as a whole.

Now, do I think that will actually happen...? No, but it wouldn't be a bad thing at all.
 
I tend to agree with Nage here. 2-3 less minutes per game would still place Mathias in the range of 29 to even 30 minutes per game. If he drops those 2-3 minutes per game, it may actually mean Purdue is playing better due to the influx of players and Carsen evolving more as a rounded player.

What I think is lost is that I don't believe he is saying Mathias should get less minutes because he is a poor player (if he did, then I am mistaken and missed that aspect of the conversation)...rather Mathias getting 2-3 less minutes per game may in fact mean the guys coming in are able to maintain the high level of play that Mathias brings with his passing, defense, and shooting. THAT wouldn't be a bad thing for the program as a whole.

Now, do I think that will actually happen...? No, but it wouldn't be a bad thing at all.
Nage actually wants Painter to bring in grad transfer Mark Alstork from Wright State to take minutes from Dakota......this was from another thread. His statements here are just an extension of his disdain for Dakota. You give him too much credit.
 
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Purdue may not technically play zone, but Purdue clearly plays help defense. Cline is going to have to use that help to his advantage to be successful and he generally does.

Aside from the newcomers who we haven't seen, who on Purdue's roster can match up with Bridges? (Nobody as far as I can see.).
I only see V. Edwards.......if he can stay out of foul trouble because he is too valuable on offense and rebounding.

Out of the newcomers. possibly Ewing or Wheeler.....both have quick feet and long arms and Ewing can jump/athletic as Bridges is and play in his face defense and Wheeler has the skill level if he plays hard and not hesitant like Freshman do and use his length to stay with a hand in his face......Bridges would still have the advantage because of his ability to handle the ball and create his shot, but Wheeler and Ewing would be two I would try to guard him with..........IMO.
 
I only see V. Edwards.......if he can stay out of foul trouble because he is too valuable on offense and rebounding.

Out of the newcomers. possibly Ewing or Wheeler.....both have quick feet and long arms and Ewing can jump/athletic as Bridges is and play in his face defense and Wheeler has the skill level if he plays hard and not hesitant like Freshman do and use his length to stay with a hand in his face......Bridges would still have the advantage because of his ability to handle the ball and create his shot, but Wheeler and Ewing would be two I would try to guard him with..........IMO.
Vince matches up pretty poorly with Bridges, but I agree that he probably is the best match-up of any returning Boiler.
 
I tend to agree with Nage here. 2-3 less minutes per game would still place Mathias in the range of 29 to even 30 minutes per game. If he drops those 2-3 minutes per game, it may actually mean Purdue is playing better due to the influx of players and Carsen evolving more as a rounded player.

What I think is lost is that I don't believe he is saying Mathias should get less minutes because he is a poor player (if he did, then I am mistaken and missed that aspect of the conversation)...rather Mathias getting 2-3 less minutes per game may in fact mean the guys coming in are able to maintain the high level of play that Mathias brings with his passing, defense, and shooting. THAT wouldn't be a bad thing for the program as a whole.

Now, do I think that will actually happen...? No, but it wouldn't be a bad thing at all.

that's what I agree with. Last year, as the year progressed, our rotation became smaller, and our starters played more minutes. This year I see our depth being greater - especially at guard - and as a result, I see all of our guards playing fewer minutes. This should be a good thing.
 
Nage actually wants Painter to bring in grad transfer Mark Alstork from Wright State to take minutes from Dakota......this was from another thread. His statements here are just an extension of his disdain for Dakota. You give him too much credit.


Well Alstork signed with somebody else. So as the saying goes:

END OF DISCUSSION ! ( I always wanted to say that)
 
ok, answer the question .... Who would guard him? Hopefully, your answer is not Cline.
I didn't quote the part about who would guard Bridges. I quoted the part where you said he isn't a 3 because I was the person in a previous post who said Bridges coming back didn't have any impact on JJJ because they play different positions.

Who will guard Bridges - probably Vince since he has the most size to work with. After that - who knows. Wheeler would also have the size but would get backed down in the post by Bridges. Eastern could potentially do it as well.

I'm going to guess we use a committee approach.
 
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