Trump's decision not to lower flag

[Bethboilerfan]

I did not write this but I think the following quote is appropriate:
"Oh, I see, White House. By raising the flag back to full mast prematurely, you’re saying that it’s ok to use the symbols of this country as vehicles for protest, but only if the protest is personal, spiteful, and childish. Got it. Thanks."

I saw John McCain as a war hero. I wish that the President had chosen a less personal and vindictive approach to this decision. It would have been more appropriate to keep the flag lowered until internment as has been the decision in the past. Now we are all thinking about this issue instead of about the death of a long-serving senator who loved his country.

 

[gr8indoorsman]

What the hell? We half staffed the flag for a full day on Sunday for a Senator. That's standard. They didn't raise it back up "early." Senator McCain died on the 25th. Protocol says half-staff through sunset on the 26th. This is actual fake news.

DODINST 1006.05 from our end, anyway:
d. Flags on all DoD buildings, grounds, and naval vessels worldwide will be displayed at half-staff from the day of death through the following day upon the deaths of the persons listed in paragraphs 4d(1) - d(4) of this enclosure. Additionally, the flag will also be flown at half-staff on all DoD buildings, grounds, and naval vessels in the State, congressional district, territory, or commonwealth of these officials from the day of death through the day of interment.

(1) A U.S. Senator.

 

[Bethboilerfan]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/msn/...ss-than-2-days-after-mccains-death/ar-BBMw5Z9

The flags elsewhere - on Capital building, etc - will be at half-mast until internment because they are not controlled by Trump. For example, Paul Ryan decides for the Capital building.

 

[Bethboilerfan]

Yes, that is what the rules are but it is not what has become standard procedure when a senator dies - the standard is that the President issues a proclamation and the flag is flown at half-mast until internment. Trump chose not to follow earlier presidential protocol.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/flag-f...te-house-as-nation-honors-john-mccains-death/

 

[gr8indoorsman]

The flags elsewhere - on Capital building, etc - will be at half-mast until internment because they are not controlled by Trump. For example, Paul Ryan decides for the Capital building.

Definitely selective outrage. Every DOD flag is at full-staff, not because of Trump, but because that's protocol.

 

[gr8indoorsman]

Yes, that is what the rules are but it is not what has become standard procedure when a senator dies - the standard is that the President issues a proclamation and the flag is flown at half-mast until internment. Trump chose not to follow earlier presidential protocol.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/flag-f...te-house-as-nation-honors-john-mccains-death/

Again, selective outrage. IMO, we half staff the flag too much and for too many people. McCain certainly deserved it and he got it IAW protocol. Nelson Mandela? Not so much.

 

[TopSecretBoiler]

I did not write this but I think the following quote is appropriate:
"Oh, I see, White House. By raising the flag back to full mast prematurely, you’re saying that it’s ok to use the symbols of this country as vehicles for protest, but only if the protest is personal, spiteful, and childish. Got it. Thanks."

I saw John McCain as a war hero. I wish that the President had chosen a less personal and vindictive approach to this decision. It would have been more appropriate to keep the flag lowered until internment as has been the decision in the past. Now we are all thinking about this issue instead of about the death of a long-serving senator who loved his country.

and fake news wins again.

 

[Bethboilerfan]

OK - I get it. You did not think McCain deserved what Ted Kennedy received in terms of respect. You people must really hate Republicans or heroes or veterans.

 

[TopSecretBoiler]

OK - I get it. You did not think McCain deserved what Ted Kennedy received in terms of respect. You people must really hate Republicans or heroes or veterans.

no. you posted straight bullshit. Oh, I see, White House. By raising the flag back to full mast prematurely, you’re saying that it’s ok to use the symbols of this country as vehicles for protest, but only if the protest is personal, spiteful, and childish. Got it. Thanks. This is factually incorrect and ridiculous.

 

[gr8indoorsman]

OK - I get it. You did not think McCain deserved what Ted Kennedy received in terms of respect. You people must really hate Republicans or heroes or veterans.

This is a nice straw man, and obviously ridiculous if you knew anything about me. As someone going on 19 years of active duty service in the Navy, McCain was a hero, in my opinion, and we need way more politicians like him. I voted for him. I voted for him in primaries before that.

I believe we have protocols and protocols should be followed. The White House followed protocol. If it is your opinion we should do more for McCain, then that’s fine and I would probably agree.

But the White House and Trump did nothing wrong and did not disrespect McCain in any way. Those are the facts. If your OPINION differs, then that’s your opinion, and your outrage is very much selective.

 

[Scheffler90]

It was just lowered again. FWIW.

I think nixing the reasonably worded memo the WH comms team was a bigger disgrace for Trump. Each time I give him the benefit of the doubt and hope he acts like someone with the emotional maturity of at least a 21-year old, he pulls off something only a petty, tantruming 9-year old would conceive. The pic of him this afternoon, arms crossed, playing the silent treatment game after questions about honoring JSM3 is something my 9-year old grew out of last year.

 

[cinboiler]

It was just lowered again. FWIW.

I think nixing the reasonably worded memo the WH comms team was a bigger disgrace for Trump. Each time I give him the benefit of the doubt and hope he acts like someone with the emotional maturity of at least a 21-year old, he pulls off something only a petty, tantruming 9-year old would conceive. The pic of him this afternoon, arms crossed, playing the silent treatment game after questions about honoring JSM3 is something my 9-year old grew out of last year.

Again, attack. Non stop. Mr. McCain was not very nice to the President. Now everybody wants to tell him what to do. Read what Tiger Woods said when a NY Times reporter wanted some negative comment out of him. Yes, Mr. McCain was a great public servant.

 

[Scheffler90]

Again, attack. Non stop. Mr. McCain was not very nice to the President. Now everybody wants to tell him what to do. Read what Tiger Woods said when a NY Times reporter wanted some negative comment out of him. Yes, Mr. McCain was a great public servant.

Well I tend to criticize Presidents selectivly. I torched Obama over the Iran deal and other matters, big and small, when I felt he deserved it. I've done the same with Trump, when he deserves it and prasise him likewise.

Im curious what you think is a fair number of criticisms for Presidents? Should we get just 1 per week? Month?...So as to satisfy your apprehensions about it being "non stop". So if he does 3 stupid things in say a week, we'd have to be careful to use "our shot" too early in the week should a more egregious error happen closer to Friday.

I think as long as you applied it evenly to all administrations, it would have some resonance. If you indeed applied this discipline to the prior administration, which I will assume you did, then you may be a better man than me.

Trump said McCain wasnt a war hero because he got captured. I was pretty pissed about that, I admit. Im just kinda shocked that didnt move the needle with more people. I mean that begins to toe-the-line into Jane Fonda territory. But that's just me.

 

[lbodel]

Again, selective outrage. IMO, we half staff the flag too much and for too many people. McCain certainly deserved it and he got it IAW protocol. Nelson Mandela? Not so much.

I don't really care about the flag. But the overall response by Trump has been pathetic.

-Days before he died, he refused to utter John McCain's name on something that was NAMED after McCain.

-The White House had prepared a statement honoring his service to the country upon his death, which was vetoed by Trump who issued a short tweet and that's it.

-Multiple American veterans groups have openly criticized how McCain's death was being handled by the White House

But yes, selective outrage? No, it's just another example of how pathetically immature Trump is.

 

[gr8indoorsman]

I don't really care about the flag. But the overall response by Trump has been pathetic.

-Days before he died, he refused to utter John McCain's name on something that was NAMED after McCain.

-The White House had prepared a statement honoring his service to the country upon his death, which was vetoed by Trump who issued a short tweet and that's it.

-Multiple American veterans groups have openly criticized how McCain's death was being handled by the White House

But yes, selective outrage? No, it's just another example of how pathetically immature Trump is.

All of that is fine and I agree with it because I admired McCain - I'd wager moreso and more deeply than anyone posting in this thread - but I believe the subject of this thread was the flag, was it not? Did the White House not follow Federal law and establish protocol? (Hint: the answer to both of those questions is "yes".) So, "selective outrage" about the half-staffing of the flag by a bunch of people who, frankly, don't know what the F they're talking about with respect to "precedent" and "protocol".

 

[SDBoiler1]

OK - I get it. You did not think McCain deserved what Ted Kennedy received in terms of respect. You people must really hate Republicans or heroes or veterans.

He is enlisted Navy. You've got to be kidding.

 

[Bethboilerfan]

He is enlisted Navy. You've got to be kidding.

Not quite sure what you mean???? McCain was navy and will be buried in the Naval Cemetery in Annapolis. I wasn't "kidding" I was being sarcastic.

 

[PurdueFan1]

I don't really care about the flag. But the overall response by Trump has been pathetic.

-Days before he died, he refused to utter John McCain's name on something that was NAMED after McCain.

-The White House had prepared a statement honoring his service to the country upon his death, which was vetoed by Trump who issued a short tweet and that's it.

-Multiple American veterans groups have openly criticized how McCain's death was being handled by the White House

But yes, selective outrage? No, it's just another example of how pathetically immature Trump is.

All of that is fine and I agree with it because I admired McCain - I'd wager moreso and more deeply than anyone posting in this thread - but I believe the subject of this thread was the flag, was it not? Did the White House not follow Federal law and establish protocol? (Hint: the answer to both of those questions is "yes".) So, "selective outrage" about the half-staffing of the flag by a bunch of people who, frankly, don't know what the F they're talking about with respect to "precedent" and "protocol".

Let’s be real here: the flag was only raised because Trump hated McCain because McCain dared stand up to him. Protocol may have been followed but precedence wasn’t. Not to mention there was a lot of bipartisan flak about it, so I’m not quite sure selective outrage really applies here.

At the end of the day, though, there were many other more important things overlooked because of the flag flap, which is too bad and probably by design.

 

[SDBoiler1]

Not quite sure what you mean???? McCain was navy and will be buried in the Naval Cemetery in Annapolis. I wasn't "kidding" I was being sarcastic.

You were addressing gr8. He is enlisted Navy.

 

[Bethboilerfan]

You were addressing gr8. He is enlisted Navy.

Thanks -

 

[gr8indoorsman]

You were addressing gr8. He is enlisted Navy.

I'm an Officer, so I'm "commissioned" rather than enlisted. #themoreyouknow

 

[gr8indoorsman]

Let’s be real here: the flag was only raised because Trump hated McCain because McCain dared stand up to him. Protocol may have been followed but precedence wasn’t. Not to mention there was a lot of bipartisan flak about it, so I’m not quite sure selective outrage really applies here.

At the end of the day, though, there were many other more important things overlooked because of the flag flap, which is too bad and probably by design.

Or maybe the flag was raised because the Marine that does it every day didn't get the word and made a mistake, or maybe the administration just opted to go with protocol here as they have with every other dignitary warranting this since he took office.

Point is, a lot of people are going to get bent out of shape over every single thing Trump does. Those people are a majority of Americans. We know them as "Democrats". Just like a lot of Americans got pissed off by everything Obama did, and we used to call them "Republicans". It's one thing to disagree with the inaction - in this case. It's wholly another to call the POTUS a "despicable human being", which is just one among the slurs thrown at Trump about this today, for doing... absolutely nothing wrong or contrary to established protocol and, yes, even norms. There is precedent that supports following protocol to the T, and there is other precedent for extending honors. In other words, there is no established precedent.

 

[SDBoiler1]

I'm an Officer, so I'm "commissioned" rather than enlisted. #themoreyouknow

Sorry gr8.

 

[PurdueFan1]

Let’s be real here: the flag was only raised because Trump hated McCain because McCain dared stand up to him. Protocol may have been followed but precedence wasn’t. Not to mention there was a lot of bipartisan flak about it, so I’m not quite sure selective outrage really applies here.

At the end of the day, though, there were many other more important things overlooked because of the flag flap, which is too bad and probably by design.

Or maybe the flag was raised because the Marine that does it every day didn't get the word and made a mistake, or maybe the administration just opted to go with protocol here as they have with every other dignitary warranting this since he took office.

Point is, a lot of people are going to get bent out of shape over every single thing Trump does. Those people are a majority of Americans. We know them as "Democrats". Just like a lot of Americans got pissed off by everything Obama did, and we used to call them "Republicans". It's one thing to disagree with the inaction - in this case. It's wholly another to call the POTUS a "despicable human being", which is just one among the slurs thrown at Trump about this today, for doing... absolutely nothing wrong or contrary to established protocol and, yes, even norms. There is precedent that supports following protocol to the T, and there is other precedent for extending honors. In other words, there is no established precedent.

I don’t necessarily disagree,....but.....given how often trump has gone after McCain, especially the utterly insulting and ludicrous comment about not being a hero because he was captured, in addition to stories (I say this not knowing if they have been verified) about how other members of his staff had statements about McCain ready to go and he refused them.......I mean it’s not really a stretch to conclude that the flags were raised because trump is indeed a despicable human being.

Again, though, so many other more important things that happened today that got ignored.

 

[SDBoiler1]

I don’t necessarily disagree,....but.....given how often trump has gone after McCain, especially the utterly insulting and ludicrous comment about not being a hero because he was captured, in addition to stories (I say this not knowing if they have been verified) about how other members of his staff had statements about McCain ready to go and he refused them.......I mean it’s not really a stretch to conclude that the flags were raised because trump is indeed a despicable human being.

Again, though, so many other more important things that happened today that got ignored.

#triggered

 

[PurdueFan1]

I don’t necessarily disagree,....but.....given how often trump has gone after McCain, especially the utterly insulting and ludicrous comment about not being a hero because he was captured, in addition to stories (I say this not knowing if they have been verified) about how other members of his staff had statements about McCain ready to go and he refused them.......I mean it’s not really a stretch to conclude that the flags were raised because trump is indeed a despicable human being.

Again, though, so many other more important things that happened today that got ignored.

#triggered

Lol. Get bent you troll.

 

[gr8indoorsman]

I don’t necessarily disagree,....but.....given how often trump has gone after McCain, especially the utterly insulting and ludicrous comment about not being a hero because he was captured, in addition to stories (I say this not knowing if they have been verified) about how other members of his staff had statements about McCain ready to go and he refused them.......I mean it’s not really a stretch to conclude that the flags were raised because trump is indeed a despicable human being.

Again, though, so many other more important things that happened today that got ignored.

I agree that Trump’s treatment of McCain was abhorrent. Goes for his treatment of a lot of people.

 

[cinboiler]

I agree that Trump’s treatment of McCain was abhorrent. Goes for his treatment of a lot of people.

McCain's treatment of Trump has been abhorrent. McCain lost his election bid for President. Trump won. He could not stand Trump. He and many Democrat and Republican supporters in congress cannot stand anything he does or says. He is President and won fair and square. But as Eugene Robinson wrote this weekend, you can be a not desirable person but be a good President.

 

[PurdueFan1]

I agree that Trump’s treatment of McCain was abhorrent. Goes for his treatment of a lot of people.

McCain's treatment of Trump has been abhorrent. McCain lost his election bid for President. Trump won. He could not stand Trump. He and many Democrat and Republican supporters in congress cannot stand anything he does or says. He is President and won fair and square. But as Eugene Robinson wrote this weekend, you can be a not desirable person but be a good President.

Good god. Do you live inside of trumps ass? McCain disagreed with Trump so therefore his treatment of Trump was abhorrent? You’re the epitome of a deplorable. Wah, McCain didn’t lick Trumps shoes, therefore that made him mean and therefore the horrible things Trump said about him were just fine. Pathetic. Simply pathetic.

 

[SDBoiler1]

Good god. Do you live inside of trumps ass? McCain disagreed with Trump so therefore his treatment of Trump was abhorrent? You’re the epitome of a deplorable. Wah, McCain didn’t lick Trumps shoes, therefore that made him mean and therefore the horrible things Trump said about him were just fine. Pathetic. Simply pathetic.

Careful, your TDS is exposed again.

 

[PurdueFan1]

Good god. Do you live inside of trumps ass? McCain disagreed with Trump so therefore his treatment of Trump was abhorrent? You’re the epitome of a deplorable. Wah, McCain didn’t lick Trumps shoes, therefore that made him mean and therefore the horrible things Trump said about him were just fine. Pathetic. Simply pathetic.

Careful, your TDS is exposed again.

Come back when you have something original dude. You sound like trump with his daily tweets about Hillary. Lame.

 

[SDBoiler1]

Come back when you have something original dude. You sound like trump with his daily tweets about Hillary. Lame.

You obviously are triggered by Trump, otherwise you wouldn't act this way.

I mean I get it to a point. Obama triggered me at times, too. I could not stand to listen to or look at him, because I hated his policies. In 2016, partially because of Obama and more because of HRC's ineptitude and corruption, America made a change. It seems like you still haven't gotten over the result in 2016?

 

[PurdueFan1]

Come back when you have something original dude. You sound like trump with his daily tweets about Hillary. Lame.

You obviously are triggered by Trump, otherwise you wouldn't act this way.

I mean I get it to a point. Obama triggered me at times, too. I could not stand to listen to or look at him, because I hated his policies. In 2016, partially because of Obama and more because of HRC's ineptitude and corruption, America made a change. It seems like you still haven't gotten over the result in 2016?

Oh you caught me. You must be a stable genius too.

 

[Scheffler90]

Or maybe the flag was raised because the Marine that does it every day didn't get the word and made a mistake, or maybe the administration just opted to go with protocol here as they have with every other dignitary warranting this since he took office.

Point is, a lot of people are going to get bent out of shape over every single thing Trump does. Those people are a majority of Americans. We know them as "Democrats". Just like a lot of Americans got pissed off by everything Obama did, and we used to call them "Republicans". It's one thing to disagree with the inaction - in this case. It's wholly another to call the POTUS a "despicable human being", which is just one among the slurs thrown at Trump about this today, for doing... absolutely nothing wrong or contrary to established protocol and, yes, even norms. There is precedent that supports following protocol to the T, and there is other precedent for extending honors. In other words, there is no established precedent.

The Marines at the WH are given a morning dictate on the flag's "positioning". It's not "just assume you'll raise it high unless you hear otherwise".

You're point about the flag in general is spot on in terms of the letter of the protocol. It's not like Trump violated some 200-year old flag tradition to just spite JSM3. Now certainly Presidents have gone above protocol pretty regularly in recent years and so that's why there is some confusion on what happened today vs other deceased dignitaries.

I do think there is a lot of "overaction" to Trump on his mistakes. Often times he may make a scale-8 mistake that people have to turn into a scale-11 reaction. And indeed it comes from some very predictable sources. I think what made this one a bit different was the Vets organizations chiming in. I think while they may not have been as pissed on the flag raising itself, the news of the nixed WH comms memo and the odd refusal to answer even a single question about McCain at today's pressers wasjust rotten optics. I think it was more just the vibe they were getting that the President was just treating today like any other Monday that irked them. As you know better than any here, the McCain name is one of the most beloved in the Navy.

Thank you for your service gr8.

 

[Scheffler90]

McCain's treatment of Trump has been abhorrent. McCain lost his election bid for President. Trump won. He could not stand Trump. He and many Democrat and Republican supporters in congress cannot stand anything he does or says. He is President and won fair and square. But as Eugene Robinson wrote this weekend, you can be a not desirable person but be a good President.

I'm curious what specific events/actions you would qualify as "abhorrent" in how McCain treated Trump. Not saying they don't exist, but just not sure I can point to one and say, "holy crap, that was abhorrent!"

I'm curious what specific adjective ("abhorrent" or otherwise) you would use to describe Trump saying McCain was not a war hero because he was captured? I was in a bar with some 'Nam vet friends when the video of Trump saying that popped up. I could relay to you the sentiments they expressed towards Trump that evening, but I might get booted from this site.

 

[Scheffler90]

You obviously are triggered by Trump, otherwise you wouldn't act this way.

I mean I get it to a point. Obama triggered me at times, too. I could not stand to listen to or look at him, because I hated his policies. In 2016, partially because of Obama and more because of HRC's ineptitude and corruption, America made a change. It seems like you still haven't gotten over the result in 2016?

I'm curious about the focus on identifying people as being "triggered" or "you have TDS". It seems an odd preoccupation in civil discourse today in how often we seem to crow with delight at inflicting some kind of verbal barb that elicits jolts of spasmodic rage...even when it seems people are just replying in what seems to be fairly normal parameters of reply.

I was involved in many formal policy debates in my day and not once did I look across at my opponent and say "Ahh, You're triggered!"...as if the mere mention of it grants it some immediate veracity. Believe me, I once got a liberal opponent so agitated that he was flailing his arms in reply to my point on capital gains tax policy that he accidently knocked the water glass from his table and it smashed against the wall. Even then, I wouldn't have said it.

The "own the lib/cons" mentality seems a very strange fixation. I like what Nikki Haley said about its lack of utility at advancing our ideas. I'm not isolating you specifically in this, just interested since you mentioned both triggering and TDS on this one post page.

 

[gr8indoorsman]

McCain's treatment of Trump has been abhorrent. McCain lost his election bid for President. Trump won. He could not stand Trump. He and many Democrat and Republican supporters in congress cannot stand anything he does or says. He is President and won fair and square. But as Eugene Robinson wrote this weekend, you can be a not desirable person but be a good President.

Get outta here with this garbage.

 

[miksta]

I'm an Officer, so I'm "commissioned" rather than enlisted. #themoreyouknow

So, you run fantasy leagues for the Navy?

j/k appreciate the service, gr8. It's a privilege being able to get your perspective on things.

 

[mk_peters]

Did the White House not follow Federal law and establish protocol? (Hint: the answer to both of those questions is "yes".)

Odd time for our president to finally follow protocol or law. The people of England and Queen Elizabeth will be relieved to hear this news, but I imagine Putin is shaking in his boots.

 

[TopSecretBoiler]

I appreciated mccain in his younger years. Lately all he did was remind of why we so desperately need term limits. As for trump...well, did you expect a parade? haha ba-dum-cht!