Is there a counter to it? If so, why can’t we figure it out? It feels like it just blows up our sets every single game and we become discombobulated.
The Hard Hedge
- Thread starter Ihaveswag29
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What you’re seeing, in addition to a hard hedge (double coming off the screen) is Braden at time getting doubled even before the screen comes. The counter in either case is to either get the ball out of his hands quickly, essentially creating an immediate four on three for his teammates, or to split the double team himself.
He seems to want to dribble his way out of the double and keep the ball in his hands, which generally is not working.
Ever since the travesty of Dick Bennet being the coach of Wisc, The Hard Hedge or "goon ball" is something that has changed basketball for the worse. Foul players constantly and dare the refs to blow the whistle. Not only Wisc, Mary, but also used by PSU, NW, and Rut
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Agree on the goon ball. Purdue was not good last night and deserved to lose but the way that game was reffed is kind of crazy. They started off calling it pretty tight and at one point the fouls were I believe seven to one against PSU. Penn State didn’t play any differently after that on defense, but the refs essentially decided “we can’t keep calling it like this and need to even up the fouls”.
That’s an oversimplification, but I don’t think I’m too far off.
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dribbles AROUND the double, taking lots of steps backwards and giviging the defense time to get into place. And using HUGE amounts of energy to do it! He was looking whipped by halftime. (JMO)
Great explanation. So do you think this is a personnel issue or a scheming issue? It feels like it has to be a personnel issue given that it has been apparent even to me all season long, and I imagine painter has tried dealing with it in practice
The best way to beat this defense is to quickly pass to a wing and they then go 4 on 3 immediately to the hoop. We don't have wings that either can or will do that. I'm looking at you Myles and Cam! So Smith ends up trying to back dribble and then reset the offense. Way too much time is taken and the whole offense is out of sync by that point. Note: Cam tried it once and traveled in the lane. 2nd Note: Smith has to stop jumping in the air and trying to bounce pass the ball. When he does this it makes for a very difficult pass to handle and takes too much time. You end up with a bounce pass that goes too high and takes too long to get there.
The 2nd way to beat it, is for Smith to immediately split the double and go aggressively to the basket. now you are 5 on 3 for a brief moment and he can either pull up and take a shot or pass to another player for a drive or shot. The reason this method isn't as good as the first one is that it is harder to execute. It's much easier for a point guard to pass out of the double versus dribbling out of it. But without wings who can make the defense pay it is the best option we have.
As others have said, we will continue to see this from every team that has the ability to do it. How we react will determine the success of this season.
The 2nd way to beat it, is for Smith to immediately split the double and go aggressively to the basket. now you are 5 on 3 for a brief moment and he can either pull up and take a shot or pass to another player for a drive or shot. The reason this method isn't as good as the first one is that it is harder to execute. It's much easier for a point guard to pass out of the double versus dribbling out of it. But without wings who can make the defense pay it is the best option we have.
As others have said, we will continue to see this from every team that has the ability to do it. How we react will determine the success of this season.
Both Cam and Miles handles are pretty poor so they don't seem comfortable attacking rather than just being spot up shooters. That needs to change in a hurry.
They are athletic, can sky, play defense and shoot. But, poor handles prevent them from getting to the basket on their own against goid teams.
It would speed Purdue up, which I don't think would always be a bad thing, but it's different. It will be interesting to see Painter's adjustments against Auburn. Good thing they will get tested enough on this.....have to improve, and they know it. Will they? That's the $64 question.
Coach has had years to make adjustments to a pressure defense but has never done so. His philosophy seems to be to "survive" a press rather than attack it. All of our opponents now seem to know this. Too bad, because we seem to have the players who can attack a press resulting in many layups.
A two man game has been in play forever. Years ago it was more around the elbow. Almost always today it is a 5 man and a 1 due to what typically is the greatest difference in physical traits as an attempt to create a mismatch. Teams want to blow up the 5 man screen on top because they want the ball out of braden’s hands because they realize how important he is with the ball. Continuing with the 5 man setting the screen and the opposition in a hard hedge the defender of the screener has to be up for that hedge leaving nobody between the offensive 5 man and the basket. The easiest counter is a slip and maybe a dive, but the screener either must be quick enough for that slip many times beating the weakside baseline defender who rotates over to help on the 5 man offensive player rolling down the lane or have a strong post presence (Zach). Also if the baseline defender goes to the lane to help on Trey's roll is a lob to the rim for the baseline offensive player (Cam/Myles) there since that pass may not get to either if behind the arc if Braden was to move out father off the hedge...dependent of course on the other weakside offensive players position on the court. Trey isn’t quick or athletic and PSU 5 man was allowed a bit of physical play and shut Trey down when Trey did get the ball and collectively with Baldwin quick enough to prevent Braden from making the pass. Not all teams have a 1& 5 defender good enough to render the 5 man screen for the one man ineffective. Trying to recall, but don’t think Marquette was as effective in shutting down the 5 man screen, but was more into off ball denial with quick hands. I don’t recall that game being as physical which always enhances an aggressive defense. Braden goes so fast towards that screen that he leaves a gap so he doesn’t run straight into the 5 man defender that is already up high. This also allows the defender of Braden when the 5 man does a handoff to get between the offensive 5 man and Braden and get a hand on the ball sometimes. IU has been somewhat successful with that. If the 5 man defender is already up high a bit early that dive is there and of course running up to the screen and slipping is there…but what are the physical traits of the 1 & 5 defenders again? Could Braden float up higher and move the 5 man defender and go through his shoulder to cause fouls on the 5 man defender since he was moving and the contact was off center of the body as though Braden was trying to move away, but actually seeking contact? A quicker whistle would have helped significantly last night, but there are going to be other games where the refs let it get a bit physical on the perimeter and that athleticism is now at a premium and the skill diminished and Purdue has to find ways under those conditions to be effective.
What if the particular game doesn’t have the offensive advantages of the high 5 man screen due to the physical prowess of the defenders in a particular game? Can you find a mismatch in a two man game using different players? You still prefer it to be in the middle of the court to take away the sideline as a defender, but it doesn’t have to be. Could there be a physical advantage where a 3 and 4 man might exploit a mis-match? If so how do you hide or create enough space with the 5 man so the 3 or 4 can play it if desired…can your 5 man be a threat to shoot the ball a couple of steps away from the blocks? Last night Purdue moved Braden off the ball some to try to take Baldwin away as a defender…played some with Giccari and CJ together and actually put CJ out there without Braden or Gicarri a couple of possessions. Due to the importance of Braden with the ball I expect every team to test the hard hedge and see how it goes for them unless they just know there 5 man doesn’t have the physical traits to be effective. There are other pressure defenses that can be a concern, but these comments are only on the high 5 man screen since it started there in this thread. I have NOT watch the game again and so my memory could be off on particulars, but the same concerns exist in that one area. Now last year there was an adjustment where Mason back screened for Zach that was effective for a couple of plays and when teams played that backscreen, Mason popped out to behind the arc to hit some big shots.
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Carsen did your second way
If there wasn’t a crease to get thru, he made one.
C-Boogie was a bull - a lot stronger than some might think.....despite the "Dakichian" stature.
Comments like these always remind me that a portion of our fanbase are either not very observant or are too emotionally attached to acknowledge the flaw in their preconceptions.
I responded to New Pal before seeing your post.C-Boogie was a bull - a lot stronger than some might think.....despite the "Dakichian" stature.
Carsen's lower body was thicker and therefore his center of gravity was lower, but being wired to score...Carsen was going to find a way to get a shot up. Braden is a true PG where Carsen wasn't. That is not to say Braden shouldn't be looking to score more, but unlike Carsen, Braden is wired to get assists first and foremost. We also don't know from game to game or within a game what the coaches are stressing for Braden to do.
Last year Matt made a comment that people in general lumped things together than were very different. That topic many times deals around a press where there are differences in the formations if zone, locations on the court, degrees of pressure, possible man press and run&jump like FDU. Still, like any forum there are islands of knowledge and although some islands are larger than others...all are dwarfed by the sea (what they don't know).
can't recall if they were ever rescued?Is she on the island?
Adjust against Auburn??? He better adjust for Maryland and the starters actually show up or Maryland will take our soul and destroy mackey!
It is somewhat common for Matt to change lineups after a loss. I do not believe there will be a fundamental change in approach, but there may be some corrections and area emphasis that appears to be a change should Purdue play well.
Part of the problem may simply be his height. Hard hedge up top, overplay his obvious passing angles to the side and he then has to see over two usually taller and bigger defenders to make a pass anywhere else.
yep, that is a physical factor in play. Normally, he is quicker or the 5 defender is a bit stiffer, but yes that is why he jumps on some passes
It for sure is part of the problem. It's even more reason why he needs to either split the defense quickly or get rid of the ball quickly. Dribbling into or away from the tap is exactly what they want him to do (besides through the ball to them). As soon as they get him to come to a stop or back dribble (further from the basket) they have "won" the possession. From that point our offense is out of sync and we are free wheeling it. For some teams, that isn't a problem or as much of a concern. They have multiple guys that can attack and they just do that. Our roster isn't constructed like that. That's why it is even more important that we handle that high trap better.
A lot of good dialog here. One equalizer this team needs to unleash is the 3 ball. Braden learning not to always dribble around the hard hedge and getting rid of ball quicker or trying to split could hopefully lead to more kickouts on wings.
Heide, Colvin, Cox, Fletcher, and Braden have to be up there in terms of collection of shooters on a team. Hopefully they can play with more pace and let the shots rip from back there. A quick open 3 is better than a TO or wasting time dribbling for a bad shot against teams that trap IMO. This will then loosen it up for TKR.
Would love to see a few games where one one those guys gets up 10 3s in a game.
Maybe scrap the PnR as the dominant action and go back to the Cline/Haarms dribble hand off and screen action with TKR and Fletcher/Smith flying off screens. TKR could then have the option to fake hand-off and take his man to the lane as well. Will be fun to see how Paint/PJ adjust.
Heide, Colvin, Cox, Fletcher, and Braden have to be up there in terms of collection of shooters on a team. Hopefully they can play with more pace and let the shots rip from back there. A quick open 3 is better than a TO or wasting time dribbling for a bad shot against teams that trap IMO. This will then loosen it up for TKR.
Would love to see a few games where one one those guys gets up 10 3s in a game.
Maybe scrap the PnR as the dominant action and go back to the Cline/Haarms dribble hand off and screen action with TKR and Fletcher/Smith flying off screens. TKR could then have the option to fake hand-off and take his man to the lane as well. Will be fun to see how Paint/PJ adjust.
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More than anything I am excited for Maryland to see how the team adjusts. Unlike some I watched the entire penn st game as I was fasinated to see how the team would react to being down. Because we got to the title game last season, I am much more chill and analytical on how I watch games this year so the schematic part of the game is much more entertaining than wins and losses. Of course I want to win every game but the drama of seeing a team grow or not grow is more interesting this year.
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Again this always comes back to who you have and who they have as to the particular problem areas a team presents. We have problems with the handoff as I mentioned previously against some teams as well. If Trey were as quick as Haarm's that dive and slip would be lethal...but then Purdue loses the inside play. What works for one team or player may not work at all with another team or player. There is no magic elixir that heals all wounds. Certainly some are better than others, but every offensive and defensive approach has potential weaknesses. Purdue even tried to take Baldwin away from the ball, but the offense still sputtered. Everything being the same except a quicker whistle and the game is not near as ugly. Problem is there will be games called like this and you just hope it isn't in a game where a team depends on turning you over and so Purdue can only control their efficiency when the refs look more and forget to blow the whistle and must figure some things out.
FWIW, I do think Purdue can always use more back cuts and back screens when the pressure gets ramped up...especially if Trey has that ball above the FT line a bit. I'm also a HUGE believer is the effectiveness of good screens, but that always has in play...position& stance of screener, setting up and then coming off the screener tight and AT THE RIGHT TIME (better late than early) and the passer timing his pass as well which means handling pressure as the screener and guy coming off the screen time their screen effectiveness.
It sounds like you've never coached but I'm telling you that a team can't stand around against a press. There can be no strolling on offense. It requires an attack mode with short quick passes and players going full speed. It will also be determined by whether the opponent is playing a man to man press or a zone press.
The press isn’t always designed to speed up a team and therefore, the attacking team isn’t always/need to go full speed. We saw with Marquette it was more of 3/4 court 1-2-2 press that didn’t trap all the time. It was meant to slow down Purdue and make them start their offensive set(s) later in the shot clock, which would not allow them to go through their progressions/options as much. Thus, having to take a shot late into the shot clock that more than likely wasn’t the best shot they could have shot.
I need to take this approach 😂
I turned it off at the 5 min mark in the first half and just looked at the espn app for score updates. 😂
That national title game run really liberated me as a fan. I was to the point last year where I didn't enjoy games because either I was worried about injuries or stupid unlucky losses (1st round NCAA game specifically). But fortunately they made the run and I got to see them play in Detroit for the elite 8 game. Now I can chill and enjoy team development at least until next year. My expectations for this season have always been very low unlike last season which was final 4 or bust.
It's beautiful to be able to watch this program without being so emotionally immersed that you cannot enjoy the journey.
It is. I thought I would have that mindset coming into this year. But, tbh, I still find myself stuck hoping we can remain consistently nationally relevant every year and using that as the measuring stick instead, which isn’t much better
I stopped at halftime not because I was upset, but I just didn't want to watch bad basketball.
I think it's absolutely fair to have reasonable expectations about this year's team. It effectively lost two pieces, one by last minute departure and one by freak accident.
Making the tourney and a top half conference finish are good enough for me.
Yes that’s the most realistic expectations…although that 3pete would be pretty sweet…but with an overreaction after the first game of the conference, it doesn’t look likely (would love to be wrong).
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