The Curious Case of the 4

[Boiler Buck]

Good win Boilers !

But wanted to make a thread about the 4. The 4 seems out of sink to me imo. Poor spacing. Poor production. TKR & Furst just do not seem to me to work there?

Maybe Heide, Morton and Gillis handle the 4???

TKR and Furst are 5s.

I will admit Furst had a late 3/4 minutes or so spurt that was very strong. More of that!!

Your thoughts....

 

[Dryfly88]

I agree it is a concern and seems out of sync. Gillis is probably the best right now. Furst did have some nice minutes tonight. TKR? I don't know what to say about him.

 

[TopSecretBoiler]

I feel like X was just a bad match up for them. They'll shine against bigger dudes.

 

[ImRonBurgandy?]

I liked TKR's dribble drive to the basket at the beginning of the game. Not sure what happened after that.

Gillis..I dont know. Great guy. Someone I want on the team, but really low ceiling with him imo.

Furst...seems to be the same player he was his frosh year. Probably right, he's a 5.

 

[BoilerNGold013]

This offense and Painters offenses in the past work the best with 4's that can consistently be a threat from 3 which would put Gillis in the lead but you give up rebounding and interior size with him on the floor.

To me if Furst can regain his freshman year 3 pt form he should get all the minutes at the 4 unless the other team plays small ball then Gillis can come in.

If TKR still can't hit a 3 consistently he needs to go back to being the back up 5.

 

[Do Dah Day]

As good as TKR and Furst are supposed to be, I hope we start seeing that. I'm a huge Gillis fan, so there is that.

 

[Do Dah Day]

? Move Gillis to the 4 and Heide to the 3 ..... why not?

 

[BoilerDeac]

Good win Boilers !

But wanted to make a thread about the 4. The 4 seems out of sink to me imo. Poor spacing. Poor production. TKR & Furst just do not seem to me to work there?

Maybe Heide, Morton and Gillis handle the 4???

TKR and Furst are 5s.

I will admit Furst had a late 3/4 minutes or so spurt that was very strong. More of that!!

Your thoughts....

Yeah, unfortunately, it's just not a great fit....but not sure what can be done about it now.

TKR and Furst are 5s, not 4s. I don't know who told them they are 4s, but they are not.

One of Furst or TKR will likely have to transfer to optimize his potential.

 

[Boiler Buck]

? Move Gillis to the 4 and Heide to the 3 ..... why not?

I am beyond happy with the production of the 3 this year. MC & Heide doing great helping Loyer there. That is a positive do far this year. Big improvement over last year imo. Amazing what you can do with talent....that fits the position.

 

[Boilerfla]

Let’s see if Coach has some action for TKR against Zags that he has been working on in practice and not let loose yet

 

[Boiler Buck]

Yeah, unfortunately, it's just not a great fit....but not sure what can be done about it now.

TKR and Furst are 5s, not 4s. I don't know who told them they are 4s, but they are not.

One of Furst or TKR will likely have to transfer to optimize his potential.

9R & 8pts. That's what we had last night by committee there. Ok, maybe, I guess??

I think perhaps part of my dismay might be how much TKR was hyped there preseason. Moreover a position where you have a Mr. BB and a GPOTY. One would think that would be a resultant position of scoring with that there.... Lots of expectations so far not lived up to? Perhaps gets better over time....I hope.

 

[Boilerfla]

Whoever is there at 4, if they are very aggressive on boards that would be huge

 

[mathboy]

I’d put Heide at the 4 with Zach at the 5. Smith, Loyer, and Jones round out my starters. I’d bring in TKR and Furst as the second string. TKR seems to move and play like a 5. He is too big and slow for an effective 4 IMHO. I think the combination of Heide’s speed and jumping agility with Zack’s offense and defense would be ideal. However, I’m not a basketball coach.

 

[02Boilermaker]

Painter always talks about how tough it is to get going when you only get spot minutes. With TKR it seems to be "spot opportunities" more than "spot minutes", but the end results look similar in that he's not able to get into any offensive flow when almost all the post opportunities are going to Zach. Let TKR's first action be as Zach's replacement, let him get fed the ball, and then maybe he'll be more effective in minutes at the 4 with Zach after getting going a bit.

I like trying to start your best 5 guys and getting them the most minutes, but this starting lineup does seem like it might be destined to the same fate as the Vince/Biggie/Haas lineup where the skill sets just didn't quite mesh at an optimal level.

 

[johnboiler123]

Yeah, unfortunately, it's just not a great fit....but not sure what can be done about it now.

TKR and Furst are 5s, not 4s. I don't know who told them they are 4s, but they are not.

One of Furst or TKR will likely have to transfer to optimize his potential.

Yeah, I’ll be pretty surprised if both are still on our roster next season.

 

[DwaynePurvis00]

Yeah, unfortunately, it's just not a great fit....but not sure what can be done about it now.

TKR and Furst are 5s, not 4s. I don't know who told them they are 4s, but they are not.

One of Furst or TKR will likely have to transfer to optimize his potential.

Why not Berg?

 

[Boiler Buck]

Why not Berg?

Many college programs are experiencing multiple transfers. Purdue will not be exempt from that..... perhaps this off season?

 

[purduedavie]

Yeah, I’ll be pretty surprised if both are still on our roster next season.

Pretty early to say that, just 3 games in. I would think Furst is the 5 next year, we’ll see how TKR develops, I think he’ll be ok.

 

[purduedavie]

I watched for the first time yesterday, no doubt TKR struggled, way too early to give up on him though, let’s wait it out another few weeks at least, I think he’ll be ok. Furst looked good in the second half, he’s a really good athlete, he’s the likely 5 next year, need him to be the backup there this year, maybe even the starting 4 if Renn can’t do it. Let’s see what happens, not about to give up on guys 3 games in, especially ones that were too recruits.

 

[johnboiler123]

Pretty early to say that, just 3 games in. I would think Furst is the 5 next year, we’ll see how TKR develops, I think he’ll be ok.

Kaufman was seriously exploring transfer options this past off season. Obviously it’s just my opinion but I won’t be surprised.

 

[ChoiceBeef]

Curious how long TKR starting at the 4 continues. As much as Gillis can be streaky at shooting 3s, his ability to steal a random board every game makes a big difference. Plus he is a way better FT shooter.

Last thing on Furst

 

[BoilerDeac]

Why not Berg?

Berg is a true 5. He might transfer too, who knows. I'm just not sold on him yet as I haven't seen enough of him play actual game minutes.

TKR and Furst are both talented -- this much is obvious -- but, in my opinion, they are not optimally utilized in their current roles.

 

[spoilerdave]

Yeah, I’ll be pretty surprised if both are still on our roster next season.

Furst isn't leaving, his brother just joined the team. Neither will TKR as long as Zach doesn't use his Covid year of eligibility as he will most likely slide to the starting center position.

Y'all are projecting a full career of failure based on one game of small ball that isn't designed to feature players at the 4 position. The Furst two games (see what I did there?) weren't either. Xavier's biggest player was smaller than Furst and TKR both and they run run run like jackrabbits.

Just be a little patient. Big 10 season is coming and the 4 position will have much more fundamental matchups that are suitable for their style of play. The beauty of depth is Painter can use whomever matches up best. When he dissects the film there is a lot to learn from this game and what stands out most is that we have the players to run with the rabbits. We already knew we could battle with the giants. I am really looking forward to next week. I hope we can beat the #11 Zags (I think we will - we did last year and in theory we are better then last year and they are worse).

I'm also rooting for #7 Tennessee over Syracuse. That will be a REAL test as they also play fast and play small ball. They don't even HAVE a starting center. Xavier was a great warmup for that style of play.

IF... (not to get ahead of myself, but I'm a fan and I'm allowed to whereas this team and our coaches are NOT) we beat Gonzaga AND Tennessee (presumably) then we likely face Kansas or Marquette. We beat Marquette last year but they lost nobody (neither did we).

They don't have a lot of depth but their starting 5 is solid. Outside of 6-11" 235 Ighodaro and his backup 6-11" Ben Gold they are generally a guard and small forward team. David Joplin could pose matchup problems at 6-8" as he scored 21 against us in the second half last year. We will need Lance Jones and his defensive prowess if we are going to succeed. He was such a blessing if he can just stop shooting from Crawfordsville.

Kansas is the pinnacle of competition though. You thought Hunter Dickenson was tough at Michigan, surround him with a cast like he has at Kansas and that will be our biggest challenge of the year. Even if we lose, that will be so good for this team as we prepare for Arizona, Alabama and the Big 10 season.

I'm excited to watch Marquette and Kansas play tonight. Indirectly I get to see Kentucky and Illinois in the same breath. Gonzaga plays today, Tennessee, Alabama, Duke v Mich St., Creighton, Baylor, USC, UConn, FL Atl, Texas A&M, Colorado and Baylor. I signed up for the 7-day Fubo trial so I can pop in and out of all those games. It's a great basketball day. Lots to learn.

 

[johnboiler123]

Furst isn't leaving, his brother just joined the team. Neither will TKR as long as Zach doesn't use his Covid year of eligibility as he will most likely slide to the starting center position.

Y'all are projecting a full career of failure based on one game of small ball that isn't designed to feature players at the 4 position. The Furst two games (see what I did there?) weren't either. Xavier's biggest player was smaller than Furst and TKR both and they run run run like jackrabbits.

Just be a little patient. Big 10 season is coming and the 4 position will have much more fundamental matchups that are suitable for their style of play. The beauty of depth is Painter can use whomever matches up best. When he dissects the film there is a lot to learn from this game and what stands out most is that we have the players to run with the rabbits. We already knew we could battle with the giants. I am really looking forward to next week. I hope we can beat the #11 Zags (I think we will - we did last year and in theory we are better then last year and they are worse).

I'm also rooting for #7 Tennessee over Syracuse. That will be a REAL test as they also play fast and play small ball. They don't even HAVE a starting center. Xavier was a great warmup for that style of play.

IF... (not to get ahead of myself, but I'm a fan and I'm allowed to whereas this team and our coaches are NOT) we beat Gonzaga AND Tennessee (presumably) then we likely face Kansas or Marquette. We beat Marquette last year but they lost nobody (neither did we).

They don't have a lot of depth but their starting 5 is solid. Outside of 6-11" 235 Ighodaro and his backup 6-11" Ben Gold they are generally a guard and small forward team. David Joplin could pose matchup problems at 6-8" as he scored 21 against us in the second half last year. We will need Lance Jones and his defensive prowess if we are going to succeed. He was such a blessing if he can just stop shooting from Crawfordsville.

Kansas is the pinnacle of competition though. You thought Hunter Dickenson was tough at Michigan, surround him with a cast like he has at Kansas and that will be our biggest challenge of the year. Even if we lose, that will be so good for this team as we prepare for Arizona, Alabama and the Big 10 season.

I'm excited to watch Marquette and Kansas play tonight. Indirectly I get to see Kentucky and Illinois in the same breath. Gonzaga plays today, Tennessee, Alabama, Duke v Mich St., Creighton, Baylor, USC, UConn, FL Atl, Texas A&M, Colorado and Baylor. I signed up for the 7-day Fubo trial so I can pop in and out of all those games. It's a great basketball day. Lots to learn.

Nobody said anything about failure. Transfers can happen for thousands of different reasons. You’re getting way too emotional over an opinion.

 

[Hausta01]

Agree with a lot in this thread. Don't see it with TKR and Zach, Furst would be a good 5 but needs time there to really get used to being a rim protector. I doubt will never be all that good of one, but he is athletic enough to be excellent at getting into the right positions.

And offensively he seems to be a better version of Matt Haarms. Can get some post touches but mostly floats around setting screens and be a threat for an open jumper.

The Purdue coaching staff has to think this as well. It's not like I'm some basketball savant lol

 

[purduedavie]

Kaufman was seriously exploring transfer options this past off season. Obviously it’s just my opinion but I won’t be surprised.

Not saying you’re wrong, only saying it’s way to early to think this, TKR is starting right now, it’s on him, last night he struggled, it was one game. No doubt Purdue probably has a player or two that does transfer, nature of the beast right now with the no sit out transfer rules.

 

[BoilerDaddy]

I like TKR’s game, but I agree with those who feel like the lane gets a little too congested when he is playing next to Zach.

I would be interested to see what it looks like to give Heide some minutes at the 4 next to Zach. The way that Colvin is coming on, I would love to see what a line-up with Colvin at the 3 and Heide at the 4 could do with Smith, Loyer, and Edey. It seems like it could really give both Smith and Edey some room to work.

 

[*4purdue*]

Good win Boilers !

But wanted to make a thread about the 4. The 4 seems out of sink to me imo. Poor spacing. Poor production. TKR & Furst just do not seem to me to work there?

Maybe Heide, Morton and Gillis handle the 4???

TKR and Furst are 5s.

I will admit Furst had a late 3/4 minutes or so spurt that was very strong. More of that!!

Your thoughts....

Some of the lineups CMP thru out there were head scratching. IMO... Colvin, if not starting, should be 1st off the bench with Heide. Both need more PT & less for Jones, Loyer & Morton. I loved Morton last year, but not sure where he fits on this years team. We have a lot of role players, I guess he's one of them. Probably going to thin out the rotation as the season goes on, but there are a lot of guys getting minutes & not getting minutes that will need to change if we are going to be FF good. X is not a great team right now & we let them hang with us on our home floor. That can't happen.

 

[spoilerdave]

Some of the lineups CMP thru out there were head scratching. IMO... Colvin, if not starting, should be 1st off the bench with Heide. Both need more PT & less for Jones, Loyer & Morton. I loved Morton last year, but not sure where he fits on this years team. We have a lot of role players, I guess he's one of them. Probably going to thin out the rotation as the season goes on, but there are a lot of guys getting minutes & not getting minutes that will need to change if we are going to be FF good. X is not a great team right now & we let them hang with us on our home floor. That can't happen.

X is a good team right now and will be a vastly better team come Feb and March. A double digit win will look very good to the selection committee come March.

Matchups are everything. Jones is imperative to our success, we need his defense and speed of we have any hope of a deep push in the tourney. Curious to scout the Zags tonight. They are a bigger team and guys like Furst and TKR will have bigger roles.

Painter said in post game he is playing 10 now but wants to get to nine. Morton is the most likely to see minutes dwindle IMO. Colvin and Heide will gain minutes without question.

 

[BoilerAndy]

Curious how long TKR starting at the 4 continues. As much as Gillis can be streaky at shooting 3s, his ability to steal a random board every game makes a big difference. Plus he is a way better FT shooter.

And MP always gives playing time to floor-burn guys.

 

[Wolegib]

Nobody commenting on Furst or Tkr is commenting based on one game. What they are commenting on is after watching both players the last two years, they are not seeing any improvement this year over previous years and they are not seeing player elevating game to a higher level. With Edey and Ivey you could see a huge improvement in their second year over their first year very early in the year. With some athletes you could see a slight regression from their freshman year.

Both Tkr and Furst were very highly thought of recruits. I recall when recruited many fans questioned why sign both players as they both seemed to play the same position. I recall myself hoping Tkr would have the ability to play the 3 because I thought would be his best path to receiving playing time. I just couldn’t see Tkr as having success at center. And I thought the 4 would be crowded with Gillis and Furst.

We each have dreams. We each speculate. I admit. I was expecting a lot more from Furst and Tkr. I thought Tkr would be one of our top players last year. It didn’t happen. Not I’m not sure if it ever will.

I also speculated if a top 50 high school player didn’t gain a starting spot by his second year, he would most likely transfer. Tkr surprised me when he decided to stay. I said te same thing about Newman. He left.

Fans talk about Harris . In order for harris to sign, somebody has to leave. Many people predict it will be Berg. But it’s my current belief if Tkr continues to see less than 20 mins, and scores less than 10ppg this year, he will be the one looking for a new home.

I’m not saying this after one game, I’m saying this after following his entire Purdue career. Typically top 50 recruits don’t red shirt and claim it’s because of a lack of projected playing time. Top 50 recruits worth their salt force their way into the lineup and increased playing time. That’s what Myles is currently doing.

 

[BoilerDeac]

Nobody commenting on Furst or Tkr is commenting based on one game. What they are commenting on is after watching both players the last two years, they are not seeing any improvement this year over previous years and they are not seeing player elevating game to a higher level. With Edey and Ivey you could see a huge improvement in their second year over their first year very early in the year. With some athletes you could see a slight regression from their freshman year.

Both Tkr and Furst were very highly thought of recruits. I recall when recruited many fans questioned why sign both players as they both seemed to play the same position. I recall myself hoping Tkr would have the ability to play the 3 because I thought would be his best path to receiving playing time. I just couldn’t see Tkr as having success at center. And I thought the 4 would be crowded with Gillis and Furst.

We each have dreams. We each speculate. I admit. I was expecting a lot more from Furst and Tkr. I thought Tkr would be one of our top players last year. It didn’t happen. Not I’m not sure if it ever will.

I also speculated if a top 50 high school player didn’t gain a starting spot by his second year, he would most likely transfer. Tkr surprised me when he decided to stay. I said te same thing about Newman. He left.

Fans talk about Harris . In order for harris to sign, somebody has to leave. Many people predict it will be Berg. But it’s my current belief if Tkr continues to see less than 20 mins, and scores less than 10ppg this year, he will be the one looking for a new home.

I’m not saying this after one game, I’m saying this after following his entire Purdue career. Typically top 50 recruits don’t red shirt and claim it’s because of a lack of projected playing time. Top 50 recruits worth their salt force their way into the lineup and increased playing time. That’s what Myles is currently doing.

Unfortunately, TKR plays the same position as the NPOY. Not the case for Myles.

 

[Lee3370]

Nobody said anything about failure. Transfers can happen for thousands of different reasons. You’re getting way too emotional over an opinion.

Agreed, with what we have coming in, and so many trying to replace Zach's minutes next year, i think with honest exit intervies this year, 2 or 3 players will transfer. Its just a numbers game, if i predict now, we lose 3, gain 1 in the transfer portal.

 

[northside100]

Kaufman was seriously exploring transfer options this past off season. Obviously it’s just my opinion but I won’t be surprised.

Agree with your first statement. I would be surprised to see him go now given that it’s likely he’ll be featured next season. A lot of season left to go, if he never really catches on you may be right.

 

[northside100]

Some of the lineups CMP thru out there were head scratching. IMO... Colvin, if not starting, should be 1st off the bench with Heide. Both need more PT & less for Jones, Loyer & Morton. I loved Morton last year, but not sure where he fits on this years team. We have a lot of role players, I guess he's one of them. Probably going to thin out the rotation as the season goes on, but there are a lot of guys getting minutes & not getting minutes that will need to change if we are going to be FF good. X is not a great team right now & we let them hang with us on our home floor. That can't happen.

I agree, and I wonder if MP is just experimenting and saving some of those lineups for Maui. I was very surprised not to see Trey playing more with Caleb ones Zach came out. I would be surprised if we didn’t see more of that versus Gonzaga.

 

[*4purdue*]

Nobody commenting on Furst or Tkr is commenting based on one game. What they are commenting on is after watching both players the last two years, they are not seeing any improvement this year over previous years and they are not seeing player elevating game to a higher level. With Edey and Ivey you could see a huge improvement in their second year over their first year very early in the year. With some athletes you could see a slight regression from their freshman year.

Both Tkr and Furst were very highly thought of recruits. I recall when recruited many fans questioned why sign both players as they both seemed to play the same position. I recall myself hoping Tkr would have the ability to play the 3 because I thought would be his best path to receiving playing time. I just couldn’t see Tkr as having success at center. And I thought the 4 would be crowded with Gillis and Furst.

We each have dreams. We each speculate. I admit. I was expecting a lot more from Furst and Tkr. I thought Tkr would be one of our top players last year. It didn’t happen. Not I’m not sure if it ever will.

I also speculated if a top 50 high school player didn’t gain a starting spot by his second year, he would most likely transfer. Tkr surprised me when he decided to stay. I said te same thing about Newman. He left.

Fans talk about Harris . In order for harris to sign, somebody has to leave. Many people predict it will be Berg. But it’s my current belief if Tkr continues to see less than 20 mins, and scores less than 10ppg this year, he will be the one looking for a new home.

I’m not saying this after one game, I’m saying this after following his entire Purdue career. Typically top 50 recruits don’t red shirt and claim it’s because of a lack of projected playing time. Top 50 recruits worth their salt force their way into the lineup and increased playing time. That’s what Myles is currently doing.

I'm not going to panic on TKR.... this is only his second season playing & he is starting. He will have up & down games, but I think will be all B1G before he leaves if he has the patients, which I think he's indicated he does based on the RS year. I do think we will have multiple scholarships open up as most schools do with the TP & NIL. I'm not going to speculate who, but I do think it will happen.

 

[spoilerdave]

Unfortunately, TKR plays the same position as the NPOY. Not the case for Myles.

That is my point. Playing behind NPOTY means you need patience, but after this season TKR will be the lock down center if he just keeps working hard. That is like quitting the marathon 50 yards from the finish line.