Soapbox time…sorry...off topic not about basketball or Purdue. Mental toughness only…

[tjreese]

I realize this is my opinion…shared by some and disliked by others…more than likely with a line of demarcation found in age differences. It has been my belief that one of the most important things a coach can grow in a player is mental toughness and that is not to be confused with physical abuse which rarely happens. It truly is an enduring quality that lasts long after the playing is over and benefits the players forever. I stumbled upon this and in consideration of what I have seen in campuses and in many of the youth…somehow we (teachers…parents) have mislead the youth. I’m old enough I remember quite well the saying, “Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me.” As it was a very common phrase years ago. Psychologists “today” (not sure about psychiatrists?) would probably disagree, but that is a hunch…at least the young ones. Anyway, a 2 minute video that I found interesting. Sports and life related, but not basketball or Purdue specifically as stated in the title...

 

[tjreese]

I realize this is my opinion…shared by some and disliked by others…more than likely with a line of demarcation found in age differences. It has been my belief that one of the most important things a coach can grow in a player is mental toughness and that is not to be confused with physical abuse which rarely happens. It truly is an enduring quality that lasts long after the playing is over and benefits the players forever. I stumbled upon this and in consideration of what I have seen in campuses and in many of the youth…somehow we (teachers…parents) have mislead the youth. I’m old enough I remember quite well the saying, “Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me.” As it was a very common phrase years ago. Psychologists “today” (not sure about psychiatrists?) would probably disagree, but that is a hunch…at least the young ones. Anyway, a 2 minute video that I found interesting. Sports and life related, but not basketball or Purdue specifically as stated in the title...

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follow up...and last video from me . Just thought reflection on this subject was worthy

 

[Do Dah Day]

As you know, I have MUCH to say about this. But the simplest "fact" is that for many, many years (like from 1960 to 2005 - more or less) someone hiring a person would always give an athlete at least two extra points of YES. Now, it is more like two extra points of NO.

 

[tjreese]

As you know, I have MUCH to say about this. But the simplest "fact" is that for many, many years (like from 1960 to 2005 - more or less) someone hiring a person would always give an athlete at least two extra points of YES. Now, it is more like two extra points of NO.

Sadly,"some" will only look at this in a political sense and yet the implications go far beyond politics. Every day in every way a person wakes up and chooses to be a victor or victim in something. Sometimes the choice is easy and sometimes it is not, but we all have a choice in how we respond to stimuli that may be different than we wish. We apparently are far removed from Eleanor's quote, "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." ...sadly.

 

[Mandeville LA]

Sadly,"some" will only look at this in a political sense and yet the implications go far beyond politics. Every day in every way a person wakes up and chooses to be a victor or victim in something. Sometimes the choice is easy and sometimes it is not, but we all have a choice in how we respond to stimuli that may be different than we wish. We apparently are far removed from Eleanor's quote, "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." ...sadly.

I am right there with you. It's not political even if some will try to make it so. I grew up on the mean streets of Lafayette In (joke) but it was a different time. I played sports because I wanted to but my parents were not into it at all. I believe because I was doing everything I was doing was 100% on me it made me a harder and prepared my mental state that my success was going to be due to ME. Fast forward a few years and I spend half to three quarters of my free time running my kids all over the country, playing in tournaments, training, practice and buying the best equipment.

I am sure the reason I do this is beacuse I did not have anyone that would do it for me. Anyway before I get off track, I think you know where I am going with this.

I would consider both of my kids as mentally soft. It's a sign of the times to some degree. My kids like/love playing but they have not had to fight for anything.

It bothers me to no end. If you have any good reading material that might help me I would very much look into it.

 

[tjreese]

I am right there with you. It's not political even if some will try to make it so. I grew up on the mean streets of Lafayette In (joke) but it was a different time. I played sports because I wanted to but my parents were not into it at all. I believe because I was doing everything I was doing was 100% on me it made me a harder and prepared my mental state that my success was going to be due to ME. Fast forward a few years and I spend half to three quarters of my free time running my kids all over the country, playing in tournaments, training, practice and buying the best equipment.

I am sure the reason I do this is beacuse I did not have anyone that would do it for me. Anyway before I get off track, I think you know where I am going with this.

I would consider both of my kids as mentally soft. It's a sign of the times to some degree. My kids like/love playing but they have not had to fight for anything.

It bothers me to no end. If you have any good reading material that might help me I would very much look into it.

Let me think about that...reading around or about mental toughness and such. There is a reason why teams may bring someone in to practice and sit on the bench that fights some odds..to strengthen others. I have always thought that the pedagogical practice of group work in schools the last several years led to herd mentality while increasing group census and reducing individual accountability. I remember over 40 years ago my deceased brother-in-law telling me the only security you have is in your own abilities. Not necessarily on "mental toughness" but a book with quotes that I have always enjoyed that you are better for having read is

Amazon product ASIN 0940601044

 

[Mandeville LA]

Let me think about that...reading around or about mental toughness and such. There is a reason why teams may bring someone in to practice and sit on the bench that fights some odds..to strengthen others. I have always thought that the pedagogical practice of group work in schools the last several years led to herd mentality while increasing group census and reducing individual accountability. I remember over 40 years ago my deceased brother-in-law telling me the only security you have is in your own abilities. Not necessarily on "mental toughness" but a book with quotes that I have always enjoyed that you are better for having read is

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If you have never looked at a book called outliers it is a very interesting read. It's basicly about when kids and people are born. In a lot of sports outside of the US everything goes by birth year to place you in your athletic group. Jan 1 - Dec 31. Your going follow this. but I remember a passage about NHL locker rooms and trying to find someone that was not born in Jan or Feb. the author goes in to whole reasoning that is. My kids play soccer and it is also a birth year sport (now) it did not used to be here in the US. Both of my kids were born in late Oct. and Nov. and this book made a lot of since to me. The oldest kids are bigger stronger and better, they got the better coaching, played on better teams etc.

The reason I struggle for answers is because you cannot ( at least I can't ) teach mental thoughness without some advanced methods. Telling a kid to get thogher is like telling them to run faster. It's not going to happen.

I am looking for thought provoking methods that could be utilized. As you said this is much bigger that high school athletics, for me it's about life and surviving in the world we live in today.

Big subject to discuss. It's deep on many levels.

 

[tjreese]

If you have never looked at a book called outliers it is a very interesting read. It's basicly about when kids and people are born. In a lot of sports outside of the US everything goes by birth year to place you in your athletic group. Jan 1 - Dec 31. Your going follow this. but I remember a passage about NHL locker rooms and trying to find someone that was not born in Jan or Feb. the author goes in to whole reasoning that is. My kids play soccer and it is also a birth year sport (now) it did not used to be here in the US. Both of my kids were born in late Oct. and Nov. and this book made a lot of since to me. The oldest kids are bigger stronger and better, they got the better coaching, played on better teams etc.

The reason I struggle for answers is because you cannot ( at least I can't ) teach mental thoughness without some advanced methods. Telling a kid to get thogher is like telling them to run faster. It's not going to happen.

I am looking for thought provoking methods that could be utilized. As you said this is much bigger that high school athletics, for me it's about life and surviving in the world we live in today.

Big subject to discuss. It's deep on many levels.

I will check out that book tomorrow. I think adversity helps. The way you make steel stronger is to immerse it in the fire. I think you stress the mental part in everything. I think you stress to never give up. I don't think there is a clear cut answer that works for all, but for sports...if you try your best and it doesn't work out you never have to wonder what if...and then you deal with moving on stronger than before. Easy...no, and I think genetics play a huge role in it and well as having your back against the wall. Still, no clear answer that works 100% of the time and as you know some players are nto as mentally tough as others...and many times that is the result of incentive a function of having a good life. I have a visitor and have to cut this short...

Naturally when I see "outliers" I think of something past 3 sigma

 

[BoilerAndy]

follow up...and last video from me . Just thought reflection on this subject was worthy

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The sad thing is, while watching these videos I was thinking, "Brilliant!" It's sad that we live in a time when an uncommon expression of common sense can be viewed as brilliant.

 

[tjreese]

The sad thing is, while watching these videos I was thinking, "Brilliant!" It's sad that we live in a time when an uncommon expression of common sense can be viewed as brilliant.

Common sense is an oxymoron

 

[SIBoiler2]

I will check out that book tomorrow. I think adversity helps. The way you make steel stronger is to immerse it in the fire. I think you stress the mental part in everything. I think you stress to never give up. I don't think there is a clear cut answer that works for all, but for sports...if you try your best and it doesn't work out you never have to wonder what if...and then you deal with moving on stronger than before. Easy...no, and I think genetics play a huge role in it and well as having your back against the wall. Still, no clear answer that works 100% of the time and as you know some players are nto as mentally tough as others...and many times that is the result of incentive a function of having a good life. I have a visitor and have to cut this short...

Naturally when I see "outliers" I think of something past 3 sigma

We no longer allow students to be immersed in fire. As an elementary student in the 60s competition was encouraged in all phases of education. That is no longer allowed because little Johnny isn't quite on the same level as the best students in the class so the best students are not challenged in any way that will make Johnny feel bad instead of a way that will make the best students feel better about themselves and improve their skills. This is why students enter college without being prepared for what lies ahead of them.

 

[proudopete]

We no longer allow students to be immersed in fire. As an elementary student in the 60s competition was encouraged in all phases of education. That is no longer allowed because little Johnny isn't quite on the same level as the best students in the class so the best students are not challenged in any way that will make Johnny feel bad instead of a way that will make the best students feel better about themselves and improve their skills. This is why students enter college without being prepared for what lies ahead of them.

School shootings probably have a little bit to do with the change in focus or putting kids in the fire.

 

[boilermaker75]

Related to this is to get your kids to develop an incremental (growth) mindset rather than an entity (fixed) mindset. For instance, you never want to praise the results, but the effort.

A good book on this topic is by Stanford psychologist Carol Dweck.

Amazon product ASIN B000FCKPHG

 

[tjreese]

Related to this is to get your kids to develop an incremental (growth) mindset rather than an entity (fixed) mindset. For instance, you never want to praise the results, but the effort.

A good book on this topic is by Stanford psychologist Carol Dweck.

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that's like playing the game and not the score in basketball.

 

[boilermaker75]

that's like playing the game and not the score in basketball.

It's like the difference between Bobby Knight (fixed mindset) and John Wooden (growth mindset).

 

[tjreese]

School shootings probably have a little bit to do with the change in focus or putting kids in the fire.

Actually you can look at Project Follow Through and see the "Affective-Cognitive theory studied in comparison to 10 or so other theories on learning started under LBJ with funding ending in 1995. Math, reading and the ever important in elementary teachers...self-esteem was studied. Many theories showed students regressing in one to all three areas. Only the despised pedagogical approach by ed school (teacher (direct) led instruction---sage on the stage) showed improvement in all three areas. This is the longest most comprehensive study ever conducted on learning styles as LBJ was trying to fight poverty in determining how students learn best. Here is some from Bonnie. I'm guessing the hot links go to various charts but I haven't visited her stuff in some time http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~adiep/ft/grossen.htm

 

[tjreese]

It's like the difference between Bobby Knight (fixed mindset) and John Wooden (growth mindset).

Actually both played against the game and not the score, but yeah that concept is what I take the referenced book to be

 

[tjreese]

We no longer allow students to be immersed in fire. As an elementary student in the 60s competition was encouraged in all phases of education. That is no longer allowed because little Johnny isn't quite on the same level as the best students in the class so the best students are not challenged in any way that will make Johnny feel bad instead of a way that will make the best students feel better about themselves and improve their skills. This is why students enter college without being prepared for what lies ahead of them.

as you can see below somewhere in my link from Bonnie...teh affective cognitive theory was a theory tested in teh 60s..obviously a consideration before the study and well before how ever many school shootings we had recently...at a time that some actually had guns in their cars while attending. The self esteem "movement" similar, but not to be confused with IU's movement was probably more popular in the 80s out east and then moved westward.

I think of being a youngster and having math board races (can't do that today as a teach and others might notice who is slow and doesn't know what it is he or she need to know. I liked them because I only wrote the answer down and not the problem always winning. The we have phonetic instruction that requires reading aloud in class and there too Johnny may have his feelings hurt struggling to sound out words and so we have many with hole...err whole language and such. Even the authority figure of a teacher being the Sage on the Stage is criticised by ed schools who would stress the friendship of being the guide on the side and such and students figuring it out on their own...like Discovery Learning. Anyway, there are elements that would support your contentions

 

[boilermaker75]

Actually both played against the game and not the score, but yeah that concept is what I take the referenced book to be

I should have been clearer. Knight's mindset was losing defines failure.

Carol says it better than I can,

https://books.google.com/books?id=d...#v=onepage&q=knight and fixed mindset&f=false

 

[boilermaker75]

as you can see below somewhere in my link from Bonnie...teh affective cognitive theory was a theory tested in teh 60s..obviously a consideration before the study and well before how ever many school shootings we had recently...at a time that some actually had guns in their cars while attending. The self esteem "movement" similar, but not to be confused with IU's movement was probably more popular in the 80s out east and then moved westward.

I think of being a youngster and having math board races (can't do that today as a teach and others might notice who is slow and doesn't know what it is he or she need to know. I liked them because I only wrote the answer down and not the problem always winning. The we have phonetic instruction that requires reading aloud in class and there too Johnny may have his feelings hurt struggling to sound out words and so we have many with hole...err whole language and such. Even the authority figure of a teacher being the Sage on the Stage is criticised by ed schools who would stress the friendship of being the guide on the side and such and students figuring it out on their own...like Discovery Learning. Anyway, there are elements that would support your contentions

What is needed is to instill in the students that success begins with failure. The only way to get better is to stretch yourself and try things that are difficult for you. So failure is not something to be ashamed of but part of the process of developing skills.

 

[JohnnyDoeBoiler]

Today's supposed issues with youth center solely around the idea of technology...specifically access to social media. Kids today are more interconnected with their entire world than ever before...and frankly that idea is much more exciting to many kids than playing sports or doing other things that people saw as a way to develop character. It isn't a bad thing....it is just totally different and the issue at play is that we have a huge generational gap in terms of the access and view of technology in this country. We have individuals who are in control of a large swatch of our society who were raised without cell phones, without internet, without the ability to simply talk to someone from a whole other part of the world. Even 20 year ago, a child's whole world was limited to how far they could ride their bike...today it is how unlimited as kids can literally Facetime with kids from China in less than 15 seconds.

It isn't bad...its just totally and unequivocally different than what we ourselves grew up with...yet society as a whole has been incredibly slow to change. It's why the turbulence of the 60's and 70's happened....and why that type of unrest is happening again. Younger people are getting involved and are trying to implement their ideology while the older generation desperately cling to theirs to maintain control.

I do agree with the OP that at times mental toughness I see in some athletes is much poorer than previously and I think that has to do with helicopter parenting rather than the kids themselves. My nephew got a total culture shock when he went off to college to play at a major D1 program when coaches started yelling and cursing at him and the team...because he came from a private school where the coaches weren't allowed to do so. If you are local to the Lafayette area...we need more Jake Burton's coaching our kids and not parent's who only provide unending and undeserved praise.

Sorry, the sociologist in me sort of came out there.

 

[tjreese]

I should have been clearer. Knight's mindset was losing defines failure.

Carol says it better than I can,

https://books.google.com/books?id=de2EJsgC368C&pg=PT145&lpg=PT145&dq=knight+and+fixed+mindset&source=bl&ots=Ie00ceBv9U&sig=E4QsIk0U-spFFeBOCO1ZXBm4xlw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiEzpCbufDVAhWK6YMKHUOPCHwQ6AEIWzAM#v=onepage&q=knight and fixed mindset&f=false

interesting! I have never read an opinion comparing the two in such a way. I can see where the opinion come from in a sense, but I also know that Knight has said many times that hsi best team was not the team that won the tourney , but the 75 team. On the surface that seems to disagree with the hypothesis it seems to me. Still, interesting...

 

[tjreese]

Today's supposed issues with youth center solely around the idea of technology...specifically access to social media. Kids today are more interconnected with their entire world than ever before...and frankly that idea is much more exciting to many kids than playing sports or doing other things that people saw as a way to develop character. It isn't a bad thing....it is just totally different and the issue at play is that we have a huge generational gap in terms of the access and view of technology in this country. We have individuals who are in control of a large swatch of our society who were raised without cell phones, without internet, without the ability to simply talk to someone from a whole other part of the world. Even 20 year ago, a child's whole world was limited to how far they could ride their bike...today it is how unlimited as kids can literally Facetime with kids from China in less than 15 seconds.

It isn't bad...its just totally and unequivocally different than what we ourselves grew up with...yet society as a whole has been incredibly slow to change. It's why the turbulence of the 60's and 70's happened....and why that type of unrest is happening again. Younger people are getting involved and are trying to implement their ideology while the older generation desperately cling to theirs to maintain control.

I do agree with the OP that at times mental toughness I see in some athletes is much poorer than previously and I think that has to do with helicopter parenting rather than the kids themselves. My nephew got a total culture shock when he went off to college to play at a major D1 program when coaches started yelling and cursing at him and the team...because he came from a private school where the coaches weren't allowed to do so. If you are local to the Lafayette area...we need more Jake Burton's coaching our kids and not parent's who only provide unending and undeserved praise.

Sorry, the sociologist in me sort of came out there.

no problem...I think you spoke a lot of truth. I'm older and I guess I fall into older thinking, but opinions should not come about by Osmosis as many youth today acquire. An opinion should be informed and in some cases...some things just take time to experience some things. I think the first responsiblity I had to some degree was marriage and then it went expotentially up with children. Without either, the world you know is pretty shallow in many cases and void of relevant knowledge needed to make many informed decisions. Still, there can be no question that social media has a huge effect on the youth ...and in my opinion more negative than positive.

 

[tjreese]

What is needed is to instill in the students that success begins with failure. The only way to get better is to stretch yourself and try things that are difficult for you. So failure is not something to be ashamed of but part of the process of developing skills.

failure is neither negative or positive in my opinion but a function of the situation at the time as to "why" the failure. you set a goal to hit 23 out of 24 Ft's and practice the right techniques adn work hard doing so and only hit 22...no failure...no problem. Teh person doesn't practice, doesn't care about doing the right things and hits 5 out of 24...failure...huge differential in effort in doing the right things and working at it. However, if possible (not lilkely) a person could do the wrong things and not practice and hit 22 out of 24 no failure in a goal, but a failure in reaching the potential...at least IMO

 

[Purdue Grad in Texas]

interesting! I have never read an opinion comparing the two in such a way. I can see where the opinion come from in a sense, but I also know that Knight has said many times that hsi best team was not the team that won the tourney , but the 75 team. On the surface that seems to disagree with the hypothesis it seems to me. Still, interesting...

IMO, '75 was his best overall team.....I'd have to look up the stats, but I believe that team was even more dominant in conference than the '76 team. Add Steve Green and Laskowski to that '76 team, but May's injury was probably the difference and an unexpected moment of adversity. I remember watching that Regional Final against Kentucky.....could have gone either way.

I suppose it also matters how you define "best team."

 

[SIBoiler2]

What is needed is to instill in the students that success begins with failure. The only way to get better is to stretch yourself and try things that are difficult for you. So failure is not something to be ashamed of but part of the process of developing skills.

And this statement explains what it wrong with so much of today's youth. Never having been allowed to fail or succeed they do not accept the challenges presented by life and resort to "safe spaces" instead of finding a way to improve their lot in life.

 

[JohnnyDoeBoiler]

And this statement explains what it wrong with so much of today's youth. Never having been allowed to fail or succeed they do not accept the challenges presented by life and resort to "safe spaces" instead of finding a way to improve their lot in life.

That is why coming in to my classroom on the first week of school, my door read this:
'Success is stumbling from failure to failure with no loss of enthusiasm.' Winston Churchill

 

[tjreese]

IMO, '75 was his best overall team.....I'd have to look up the stats, but I believe that team was even more dominant in conference than the '76 team. Add Steve Green and Laskowski to that '76 team, but May's injury was probably the difference and an unexpected moment of adversity. I remember watching that Regional Final against Kentucky.....could have gone either way.

I suppose it also matters how you define "best team."

The "RESULTS" are always a function of what is measured and THAT is so crucial in ALL "studies" that may be referenced. Teh point I made was that Knight has always said the 75 team was his best and they didn't win. Now, people may have different theories for him saying that, but he has always maintained that.

 

[boilermaker75]

That is why coming in to my classroom on the first week of school, my door read this:
'Success is stumbling from failure to failure with no loss of enthusiasm.' Winston Churchill

"Never, never, never give up," Winston Churchill.

 

[proudopete]

Actually you can look at Project Follow Through and see the "Affective-Cognitive theory studied in comparison to 10 or so other theories on learning started under LBJ with funding ending in 1995. Math, reading and the ever important in elementary teachers...self-esteem was studied. Many theories showed students regressing in one to all three areas. Only the despised pedagogical approach by ed school (teacher (direct) led instruction---sage on the stage) showed improvement in all three areas. This is the longest most comprehensive study ever conducted on learning styles as LBJ was trying to fight poverty in determining how students learn best. Here is some from Bonnie. I'm guessing the hot links go to various charts but I haven't visited her stuff in some time http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~adiep/ft/grossen.htm

I respect your data here. But we have had discussions before where you claimed the data could be wrong, misinterpreted or merely not gathered correctly.
Things have changed and a different perspective is needed to look at these changes. We did fall behind as a nation. We didn't get ahead of the global economy and instead clinged to shrinking production jobs and consumption as the metric used to measure success.
We can't move forward if we continue to move backwards. So many children grew up being taught to study but not to learn. They were told to confirm instead of being innovative. Today's youth had more access to the world and they see the need for change and they refuse to conform to failed ideologies. I don't see that as a bad thing, it's just different.
I know it's popular to say kids today are soft, yet kids today are dealing with problems most of us had no idea about at a younger age. They may in fact be tougher as most kids of any generation had a certain level of entitlement. I would assume most kids who graduated in the 60's felt they were entitled to a good paying job and a family and house and two cars. That isn't reality today. The competition is much greater with many fewer jobs and most require extensive training.
Really is some are soft and some are changing the world for better. We can't just judge them as a whole. There are soft 60 something's as well so it isn't something only the millennials can be tagged with.

 

[tjreese]

I respect your data here. But we have had discussions before where you claimed the data could be wrong, misinterpreted or merely not gathered correctly.
Things have changed and a different perspective is needed to look at these changes. We did fall behind as a nation. We didn't get ahead of the global economy and instead clinged to shrinking production jobs and consumption as the metric used to measure success.
We can't move forward if we continue to move backwards. So many children grew up being taught to study but not to learn. They were told to confirm instead of being innovative. Today's youth had more access to the world and they see the need for change and they refuse to conform to failed ideologies. I don't see that as a bad thing, it's just different.
I know it's popular to say kids today are soft, yet kids today are dealing with problems most of us had no idea about at a younger age. They may in fact be tougher as most kids of any generation had a certain level of entitlement. I would assume most kids who graduated in the 60's felt they were entitled to a good paying job and a family and house and two cars. That isn't reality today. The competition is much greater with many fewer jobs and most require extensive training.
Really is some are soft and some are changing the world for better. We can't just judge them as a whole. There are soft 60 something's as well so it isn't something only the millennials can be tagged with.

Yeah, but I think the mean has shifted to being more soft today. I can't imagine using some trigger as a reason to not take finals for just one of many examples. I don't know that data is ever wrong...it is just that it may not mean what some feel it means..and of course missing for the conclusion drawn is essentially the same. I just left an AD I haven't seen for a while and he essentially just stated what I said . In your world you may find people not as soft, but in several decades I've never witnessed so many melt on a word as today...but it is okay that different people hold different opinions

 

[proudopete]

Yeah, but I think the mean has shifted to being more soft today. I can't imagine using some trigger as a reason to not take finals for just one of many examples. I don't know that data is ever wrong...it is just that it may not mean what some feel it means..and of course missing for the conclusion drawn is essentially the same. I just left an AD I haven't seen for a while and he essentially just stated what I said . In your world you may find people not as soft, but in several decades I've never witnessed so many melt on a word as today...but it is okay that different people hold different opinions

I don't mind different opinions, I appreciate the thought process.
I will say however, I think the word you are looking for instead of soft, is different.
Things are much different today. What used to be the method of hard work to get what you want has changed. What kids want today has also changed. Kids today are making huge contributions to society at even younger ages. More kids volunteer today than they did 30 years ago, twice as many. Kids today aren't looking for the 30 year retirement job, they realize the world isn't like that now and they strive to continue to evolve instead of remaining stagnant.
I am not sure any of us here had to return to school the day after a school shooting or enter through a metal detector and go to class with gangs and violence all around. I'm pretty sure most of us here haven't had to face graduation with so few options for non-skilled jobs or with the national debt being so high. College grad had many more options 30 years ago and before as we don't need any more lawyers, graphic artists, philosophers, and in many areas teachers.
The kids today were raised either by us or by our children. We do own some of the reason they are what they are, either directly or by our actions or inaction.
My point is you are comparing apples to hand grenades when you cite JBJ studies. The world is much different today than in the 60's, similar yet very different. I would assume while a couple of hundred thousand young people were sent to SE Asia, jobs were probably easier to get with less competition. The country was still a leader in many different areas back then, not so today. It wasn't he kids of today who allowed our country to fall behind others such as China and India. That was your generation and mine.

I don't know how many millennials you interact with regularly or if your judgements are based off of friends that at AD's or studied from the 60's, but I have two millennials and I see them and their friends daily. These kids are afraid, just like all kids at that age no matter what generation. But these kids think about important things, debate them amounts themselves, they make plans, they act and support what they believe. I understand this is all scary to the older generation, we are more used to kids bowing to their elders and towing the line. That isn't the case anymore. These kids see the times have changed and they see where we failed and they are determined to make the changes we failed to make. Whether it be civil rights, education, national security, spending on military, over crowded classrooms, underfunded schools, failing infrastructure, killing of innocent civilians while waging for profit wars, destruction of the planet, and even caring for the elderly. These kids live it daily where we did not. They think things through, collect data and innovate changes that make huge contributions to society. This is what they have, they don't have a world war to fight, a factory job that allows them to buy a house and two cars, they don't have a pension or free insurance for their families, they simply don't have the same advantages you and I had. It's tougher and they whine, that doesn't make them soft. Every generation whines in their 20's. Look back at studies down on the youth of the 50's and you will find the same thing, they are soft. It's not reality, it's the belief of the day that isn't rooted in fact and doesn't take into consideration the changes and lack of change that has led them to the life they will have to live after we are all gone. Sit back and watch them sometime. You may think they are on social media on their phones and they may in fact be exploring the vast amount of knowledge that is available to them today and coming up with something that will probably make your life better.

I love the youth today. They care more about others than any other generation I can think of. They give, they care, they act. That's not soft, that's what humans are supposed to be.

 

[tjreese]

I don't mind different opinions, I appreciate the thought process.
I will say however, I think the word you are looking for instead of soft, is different.
Things are much different today. What used to be the method of hard work to get what you want has changed. What kids want today has also changed. Kids today are making huge contributions to society at even younger ages. More kids volunteer today than they did 30 years ago, twice as many. Kids today aren't looking for the 30 year retirement job, they realize the world isn't like that now and they strive to continue to evolve instead of remaining stagnant.
I am not sure any of us here had to return to school the day after a school shooting or enter through a metal detector and go to class with gangs and violence all around. I'm pretty sure most of us here haven't had to face graduation with so few options for non-skilled jobs or with the national debt being so high. College grad had many more options 30 years ago and before as we don't need any more lawyers, graphic artists, philosophers, and in many areas teachers.
The kids today were raised either by us or by our children. We do own some of the reason they are what they are, either directly or by our actions or inaction.
My point is you are comparing apples to hand grenades when you cite JBJ studies. The world is much different today than in the 60's, similar yet very different. I would assume while a couple of hundred thousand young people were sent to SE Asia, jobs were probably easier to get with less competition. The country was still a leader in many different areas back then, not so today. It wasn't he kids of today who allowed our country to fall behind others such as China and India. That was your generation and mine.

I don't know how many millennials you interact with regularly or if your judgements are based off of friends that at AD's or studied from the 60's, but I have two millennials and I see them and their friends daily. These kids are afraid, just like all kids at that age no matter what generation. But these kids think about important things, debate them amounts themselves, they make plans, they act and support what they believe. I understand this is all scary to the older generation, we are more used to kids bowing to their elders and towing the line. That isn't the case anymore. These kids see the times have changed and they see where we failed and they are determined to make the changes we failed to make. Whether it be civil rights, education, national security, spending on military, over crowded classrooms, underfunded schools, failing infrastructure, killing of innocent civilians while waging for profit wars, destruction of the planet, and even caring for the elderly. These kids live it daily where we did not. They think things through, collect data and innovate changes that make huge contributions to society. This is what they have, they don't have a world war to fight, a factory job that allows them to buy a house and two cars, they don't have a pension or free insurance for their families, they simply don't have the same advantages you and I had. It's tougher and they whine, that doesn't make them soft. Every generation whines in their 20's. Look back at studies down on the youth of the 50's and you will find the same thing, they are soft. It's not reality, it's the belief of the day that isn't rooted in fact and doesn't take into consideration the changes and lack of change that has led them to the life they will have to live after we are all gone. Sit back and watch them sometime. You may think they are on social media on their phones and they may in fact be exploring the vast amount of knowledge that is available to them today and coming up with something that will probably make your life better.

I love the youth today. They care more about others than any other generation I can think of. They give, they care, they act. That's not soft, that's what humans are supposed to be.

*********************************************************************************
I can find total agreement that different circumstances are in play for different generations. My focus was of more youth today being soft not that they have different issues to deal with...one example is being soft in the body. Look at the youth today and years ago, not near the physical exertion it appears. There are plenty of jobs today in the right major...and always room for an electrician, plumber and HVAC person. I'll agree that jobs were more plentiful when I graduated, but I would still get a job today if I just graduated. I grew up under the cold war where we all knew life could be extinguished in minutes and Vietnam where the politicians played their games like the Korean war and just a few years ago when we advertised what we would and would not do with timelines. Still, my generation wasn't the toughest either. For the record I do not think I belong in the greatest generation ...that was my parents and to begin to compare their battles with the youth of today is more of a stretch than I think you are capable. I also believe that softness increases over time "generally" in a physical sense.

Here is one big difference between then and now and like all things there are exceptions to the norm. Older people went to school where the teacher was an authority figure. It was understood that "you" did NOT have an informed opinion as a RIGHT and that it wasn't something you were born with but something to be grown. Years ago, the questions were what do you "think"? Today, it is what do you "feel"? If you don't see the difference in the examples and the application over time, then the chasm is too wide. There is a lot of feminization of the male it seems anymore. I recall years ago coaching pee wee, minor and major league baseball. I haven't played in years and really haven't studied it, but not much different than the other coaches and knew I was pretty amateurish. I remember as a youth wearing a wool uniform and pitching at 5pm in July and August and sweating before the game and here I was getting introduced to team mothers that wanted to come in the dugout and kids interested in treats and actually leaving the dugout until I saw it and put a stop to it during the game to get a hot dog or candy bar. Hell, none looked famished to me. Where was the love just for the game...just tough it out for 90 minutes in the shade of the dugouts in tee shirts and cotton pants or so and you can have your social hour and treats later. I'm sure I could list other examples, but this is enough. Course few alive are as tough as those in the civil war that were about 130 pounds and carrying about 45 pounds marching up and down the terrain 12-15 miles a day only to engage in a life and death battle upon arrival...some barefoot. I think "softness" in a physical sense has slowly became soft over the years...with maybe an uptick more recently. Still, in spite of many youth already way overweight and with a high point of their metabolism right now in play the lack of physical concern by many is a problem that will manifest itself a few decades from now, but the mental softness...now that is a big time mess right now.

How did anyone every think they had the right to not be offended? Who grew this? I can't imagine being in college and getting "triggered" over anything. Yeah, I'm too upset to take a final due to someone saying something. That's okay Mikey, nobody else will ever expect you to perform when there is a storm brewing. Although I don't think the real battle over statues today has anything to do with views on racism, discounting of course those that may not know much history and sincerely woke up and "felt" sanitizing history rather than actually learning it was somehow the best approach or shutting down views you disagree with through violence like the brown shirts of Germany. Course Stalin had his useful idiots year ago.

Actions we see today regarding , safe spaces, trigger words and objects whether statues or words only cause reaction to the mentally soft "if" sincere and just recently...right Pelosi? So where are the boundaries of the extended Bowderized World? Where does it stop? How dumb must we become through this sanitization? It is as though I turn on the TV and see The Night of the Broken Glass all over and yet 1938 seems so long ago! A good primer The Language Police was written by Diane Ravitch where this guru on the history of education was shocked how bad it was when she wrote the book let alone where we are today...and she didn't even get into the potential huge problems with DIF (Differential Item Functioning). Forget thought as it is all about feelings at this time as we head to idiocrasy.

I know we have different opinions on a lot of things, but somehow I "thought" you wrote somewhere in the global warming...cooling or climate change...can't recall the specific label that you were conservative and I can't see any inkling of you as a conservative and that is okay. I have a sister that is very liberal and was talking about doctor assisted suicide last Sunday and I said I think we have to be very careful about going down that slope and boy either stating "being careful" or "slope" was enough to trigger her into some puerile tirade. So, did I read that right or was it someone else that said they were conservative?

 

[PurdueBtfu2]

The younger generation is becoming softer? LOL. Reminds me of my grandfather's words long ago. And he in turn listened to the same.

 

[BoilerAndy]

The younger generation is becoming softer? LOL. Reminds me of my grandfather's words long ago. And he in turn listened to the same.

Doesn't mean it isn't true.

When I listen to what my grandparents had to go through, I have no problem admitting that I had it much, much, much better. Yet I was complaining how rough life could be. If we actually listen to our grandparents, they aren't really bragging about how tough things were. They are stating facts.

 

[PurdueBtfu2]

Doesn't mean it isn't true.

When I listen to what my grandparents had to go through, I have no problem admitting that I had it much, much, much better. Yet I was complaining how rough life could be. If we actually listen to our grandparents, they aren't really bragging about how tough things were. They are stating facts.

LOL. Yes!

I also know few grandparents who brag to children. I sure do not.

 

[tjreese]

Doesn't mean it isn't true.

When I listen to what my grandparents had to go through, I have no problem admitting that I had it much, much, much better. Yet I was complaining how rough life could be. If we actually listen to our grandparents, they aren't really bragging about how tough things were. They are stating facts.

I can't imagine anyone with any sense of history comparing today to the depression and WWII. That takes a special kind of view...and in my wildest dreams..and sometimes they can get wild, I can't even begin to lay out things of comparible hard times. Then again, I already talked about some semblance of history being amiss for many...

 

[PUBV]

I hate to lump a whole generation of people into a "they're mentally soft"classification. That line of thinking is mentally soft if you ask me. I graduated high school in 81, my kids 2011 and 2014. Talking to my kids buds, and thinking about the derelicts I graduated with, I can tell you with my unprofessional opinion that these kids are much more intelligent than high school grads of my time. Plus, I love these kids because they, again my unprofessional I'm not gonna link you an article or vid opinion is, are much more empathetic to the plight of others. They don't weasel to the slippery slope argument, the I'm gonna piggyback a hypothetical boogeyman to try to impede a progressive idea. Trust me, I'm old and therefore I possess wisdom, total hogwash! I'm 55 and I firmly believe that millennials will move this country forward, not backward like some old timers would like. Why am I talking about this on the basketball board again?

 

[BoilerAndy]

I can't imagine anyone with any sense of history comparing today to the depression and WWII. That takes a special kind of view...and in my wildest dreams..and sometimes they can get wild, I can't even begin to lay out things of comparible hard times. Then again, I already talked about some semblance of history being amiss for many...

Aww, those people were just bragging about surviving the war and the depression. TIC

 

[proudopete]

*********************************************************************************
I can find total agreement that different circumstances are in play for different generations. My focus was of more youth today being soft not that they have different issues to deal with...one example is being soft in the body. Look at the youth today and years ago, not near the physical exertion it appears. There are plenty of jobs today in the right major...and always room for an electrician, plumber and HVAC person. I'll agree that jobs were more plentiful when I graduated, but I would still get a job today if I just graduated. I grew up under the cold war where we all knew life could be extinguished in minutes and Vietnam where the politicians played their games like the Korean war and just a few years ago when we advertised what we would and would not do with timelines. Still, my generation wasn't the toughest either. For the record I do not think I belong in the greatest generation ...that was my parents and to begin to compare their battles with the youth of today is more of a stretch than I think you are capable. I also believe that softness increases over time "generally" in a physical sense.

Here is one big difference between then and now and like all things there are exceptions to the norm. Older people went to school where the teacher was an authority figure. It was understood that "you" did NOT have an informed opinion as a RIGHT and that it wasn't something you were born with but something to be grown. Years ago, the questions were what do you "think"? Today, it is what do you "feel"? If you don't see the difference in the examples and the application over time, then the chasm is too wide. There is a lot of feminization of the male it seems anymore. I recall years ago coaching pee wee, minor and major league baseball. I haven't played in years and really haven't studied it, but not much different than the other coaches and knew I was pretty amateurish. I remember as a youth wearing a wool uniform and pitching at 5pm in July and August and sweating before the game and here I was getting introduced to team mothers that wanted to come in the dugout and kids interested in treats and actually leaving the dugout until I saw it and put a stop to it during the game to get a hot dog or candy bar. Hell, none looked famished to me. Where was the love just for the game...just tough it out for 90 minutes in the shade of the dugouts in tee shirts and cotton pants or so and you can have your social hour and treats later. I'm sure I could list other examples, but this is enough. Course few alive are as tough as those in the civil war that were about 130 pounds and carrying about 45 pounds marching up and down the terrain 12-15 miles a day only to engage in a life and death battle upon arrival...some barefoot. I think "softness" in a physical sense has slowly became soft over the years...with maybe an uptick more recently. Still, in spite of many youth already way overweight and with a high point of their metabolism right now in play the lack of physical concern by many is a problem that will manifest itself a few decades from now, but the mental softness...now that is a big time mess right now.

How did anyone every think they had the right to not be offended? Who grew this? I can't imagine being in college and getting "triggered" over anything. Yeah, I'm too upset to take a final due to someone saying something. That's okay Mikey, nobody else will ever expect you to perform when there is a storm brewing. Although I don't think the real battle over statues today has anything to do with views on racism, discounting of course those that may not know much history and sincerely woke up and "felt" sanitizing history rather than actually learning it was somehow the best approach or shutting down views you disagree with through violence like the brown shirts of Germany. Course Stalin had his useful idiots year ago.

Actions we see today regarding , safe spaces, trigger words and objects whether statues or words only cause reaction to the mentally soft "if" sincere and just recently...right Pelosi? So where are the boundaries of the extended Bowderized World? Where does it stop? How dumb must we become through this sanitization? It is as though I turn on the TV and see The Night of the Broken Glass all over and yet 1938 seems so long ago! A good primer The Language Police was written by Diane Ravitch where this guru on the history of education was shocked how bad it was when she wrote the book let alone where we are today...and she didn't even get into the potential huge problems with DIF (Differential Item Functioning). Forget thought as it is all about feelings at this time as we head to idiocrasy.

I know we have different opinions on a lot of things, but somehow I "thought" you wrote somewhere in the global warming...cooling or climate change...can't recall the specific label that you were conservative and I can't see any inkling of you as a conservative and that is okay. I have a sister that is very liberal and was talking about doctor assisted suicide last Sunday and I said I think we have to be very careful about going down that slope and boy either stating "being careful" or "slope" was enough to trigger her into some puerile tirade. So, did I read that right or was it someone else that said they were conservative?

I am conservative., I always have been. This last election is the first that I didn't vote GOP. The difference I suppose is I turned off the propaganda and went outside and sought out those who thought differently than myself to find out the truth.

I suppose if you choose to watch stations that purposefully seek out soft kids to use as an example, you are going to hear what you want to hear. I would imagine if the same was done in 1962, then people would have said those kids were soft as well. All kids are confused at that age. It's a hard transition, even more so now than when you came of age. I am really not sure how that, my main point, is so hard to agree with?