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Serious question...

5 years at 11 teams, 4 at 12 and 2 at 14 does not equal "what has been an 11 team league for most of his tenure".
For everyone that thinks we have been above average for the last ten years, you are precisely the problem with Purdue athletics. You have accepted mediocrity for over 30 years. I'm not judging mediocrity by what place we finish in the Big. I support Purdue athletics, not for one 1st place finish in ten years but in the hope that we will become an elite program. CMP is not and will never be the coach to get us to that level.

I certainly think we have the talent to get to a FF this year, I just don't think we have the drive and desire. Even if we make it, my opinion will not change.
 
You see.. that's a difference of opinion between us. You think Purdue is above average, and I think Purdue isn't. I don't think we can ever persuade each other, so why don't we stop right there? You can keep posting what you think, and I will post what I think. Let's stop trying to tell how people should think.

I find it difficult to call a team that has been ranked in the top 25 basically all year average....just doesn't add up in my old school math. Would I like to be in top 5 all season...sure. But then there would be those complaining because we weren't number one. Am I disappointed with some of our losses this year-absolutely. But the season is not over and I think we are seeing improvement with each game recently. If Mathias and Cline can stay with it for the rest of the year I personally think Purdue is a serious team to be reckoned with...
 
Okay, first of all, Purdue IS definitely an above average program by any standard. The problem is, we have been for so long even before Painter got here. We somehow could never reach beyond the level. Some of the responsibility lies with Painter, but most does not. Let me elaborate.

One, while Purdue is in the basketball-rich state of Indiana, we are competing with too many teams for the talents. Purdue is a good engineering school, but that does not always translate well to the highly touted recruits, who only see college as a stepping stone for the NBA. Those impact freshmen do not necessarily see us as an attractive choice, at least by the school itself. Swanigan chose Purdue BECAUSE of Hammons and Haas, whose presence has taken center duty off of him. Without those two? I doubt he would have ended up here.

Two, many cite the limited success of the 2007 class as one of the examples of Painter's failure, if you can really call that, but it is a misconception in my opinion. Of the 2007 class, Martin was gone after the freshmen year, JJ took 2 years to become a core player, and Hummel has suffered the major injury which I dare not say the name, TWICE. When you seriously take a look, the 2007 class basically came down to Moore and only one other guy giving significant contribution at one given time. Painter does have some faults for not getting up better recruits to back them up, but it was also the time when he was bleeding assistants because of the lack of fund. We know who is to blame for it there; he is leaving soon. While I do not question Burke's dedication to school, I never understood his budget strategy.

Three, we have 2 7-footers who can start at almost any school this year. When did this ever happen in NCAA?? The closest I can think of the Georgetown in the 80's when they had Mutombo, and Mourning in a row. It is very impressive. But does that mean we should be invincible and going 30-0? Nope. In fact, even though Georgetown team had had Mutombo and Mourning for three straight years, the furthest they reached was the one Elite Eight. I have high hopes for this team, and I think we can even go all the way with the right kind of luck, but I am realistic. I wouldn't be screaming for Painter's head just because he doesn't win the championship this year. I am not settling for mediocre. I just think that Painter has not had much luck on this side very often, and we cannot fire a hard-working coach for managing a more than decent team but not lucky enough.

I kinda lost the track of my thoughts, but my conclusion is still the same. Is Painter a good coach? Yes. Is he good enough to satisfy everyone? Not really. Is that a reason to fire him now? Heck no, especially now with Burke being gone soon. Do I have a high hope for this year's team? Oh yeah. Will I get upset if we don't win championship this year? A little, but not enough to join the Fire Painter bandwagon.
 
FWIW: I don't think average conference finish is entirely fair to Painter in this case.

True, he's had two dead-last finishes (one was his first season).

But, by Sunday evening he could also have six top-3 finishes in 11 years. That's better than average.
you cant count that first year, player suspensions, complete program rebuild, graduations etc
 
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I figured this thread would bring out the negative nitwits like icewind and (not)4purdue ..... and as the OP will see, they are a clueless lot.

I guarantee the majority of Purdue fans are happy with Painter because Purdue is ABOVE average as so many have pointed out with solid facts while the others just have their clueless perception. They have unreasonable expectations where if a coach doesn't make a final four every 10 years, they get fired. Who cares if they are a top 20 team, trending up and has a solid core for the future. The self-entitled wannabe coaches know better than everyone else so fire the coach because there are a line of coaches just itching to come here and work under those stipulations.

Those that claim the majority of fans aren't happy with the direction we currently are heading in are blind and don't have the first clue about coaching. It's really easy to see in their comments just how little they know too.
 
I figured this thread would bring out the negative nitwits like icewind and (not)4purdue ..... and as the OP will see, they are a clueless lot.

I guarantee the majority of Purdue fans are happy with Painter because Purdue is ABOVE average as so many have pointed out with solid facts while the others just have their clueless perception. They have unreasonable expectations where if a coach doesn't make a final four every 10 years, they get fired. Who cares if they are a top 20 team, trending up and has a solid core for the future. The self-entitled wannabe coaches know better than everyone else so fire the coach because there are a line of coaches just itching to come here and work under those stipulations.

Those that claim the majority of fans aren't happy with the direction we currently are heading in are blind and don't have the first clue about coaching. It's really easy to see in their comments just how little they know too.
Here we go. Just because a few people have a different opinion, the first reaction is name calling. Grow up.

I don't think because we are a top 20 team this year, we can claim we're above average over the last ten years. We certainly are this year. Basically, I think my problem is we are underachievers. I know injuries have certainly been a factor but so has recruiting. I would also agree we are trending up but we are a Carrol or Bade away from reversing that trend.
 
Here we go. Just because a few people have a different opinion, the first reaction is name calling. Grow up.

I don't think because we are a top 20 team this year, we can claim we're above average over the last ten years. We certainly are this year. Basically, I think my problem is we are underachievers. I know injuries have certainly been a factor but so has recruiting. I would also agree we are trending up but we are a Carrol or Bade away from reversing that trend.
It's not a different opinion problem those people I called out are just flat out wrong. Don't like how I respond? Tough. Put on some big boy pants.

And the rest of your post just shows how little you know. You discount quickly that we are a top team which is more the norm for Purdue under Painter than not which completely proves we are above average. The rest of your comment is just utter nonsense and so much so that it stands on it's own stupidity so I don't even need to comment on it further.
 
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You see.. that's a difference of opinion between us. You think Purdue is above average, and I think Purdue isn't. I don't think we can ever persuade each other, so why don't we stop right there? You can keep posting what you think, and I will post what I think. Let's stop trying to tell how people should think.

I am posting what I think and what I think is that you are wrong.
 
In reading through this thread, it seems like part of the debate is driven by the fact that there is little commonality on which to calculate a meaningful "average". There's average by Purdue's own standards, there's average by 351 D1 teams, there's average by B1G, and probably more. And I think some people are getting way to hung up on the literal definition of the word anyway.

This argument, to me, is really more about how Purdue has performed against it's peers, which admittedly, creates then a new (and also potentially subjective) question as to who its peers are. Given that Purdue plays in a conference that is normally one of the better basketball conferences in the NCAA, performance in the B1G is probably a fair place from which to start - which I think is probably the viewpoint that @*4purdue* and @icewind7 where taking. I'd go a step further and broaden the peer group to other basketball conferences - ACC being a good example; football stinks there. Heck, maybe it should be all 5 power conferences, just because some are split between being - generally speaking - good at football vs. good at basketball.

So let's say you went that route of power 5 as your starting point. Next, you eliminate programs that during the period in question, which I think most would agree on 10 years; not only a nice round number, but excludes Painter's 1st year, which is probably fair. Then, you should probably exclude programs who have been total losers over that period, i.e. the Rutgers of the world. Rutgers, Wake Forest, Penn State... these are not Purdue's peers. Purdue has won 22 B1G championships for crying out loud! I don't know where exactly you draw the line, but you'd have to at least give consideration to removing teams in the bottom 10% (maybe 20%?) of conference records during that time. Just like it isn't really fair to compare Painter/Purdue to Calipari/Kentucky to argue Purdue's failures, it's equally stupid to include the bottom feeders in any debate about how Purdue measures up against its peers.

Lastly, one would probably want to also add in teams outside the power 5 that have been reasonably good programs over the last decade. BYU, Wichita St., Gonzaga, Butler, etc. I suppose you might also have to consider removing a team or two at the top if they are so dominant for which comparing Purdue isn't fair - UK is the obvious example as their recruiting puts them in a league of their own with Cal. But, what about Duke? Kansas? Or maybe it's ok to keep them in because the cut-off on the bottom is going to include just some OK teams anyway, so perhaps it balances out. But only once you have a reasonable peer group defined can you truly assess Purdue's/Painter's performance.

EDIT: After having finished writing this, I really wish I had time to do exactly what I described, but maybe somebody else will take on that adventure.
 
I think most would agree that Kansas is an elite program. And there is a ton of evidence that they are far above average. Their conference championships are incredible. They've made the dance every year for the past eleven, as an elite team should.

I know this doesn't directly relate, but what expectations have Kansas fans had for these years? How underachieving have these teams been in the eyes of the fans?

Here is their Big Dance record for the past ten years:

Last 11 years - Made it past 4th round twice
Lost first round - 2005, 2006

Last 9 years
Lost second round - 2010, 2014, 2015
Lost third round - 2009, 2013
Lost elite 8 - 2007, 2011
Lost final 4 -
Lost Championship - 2012
Won Championship - 2008

2015 1-1 Defeated New Mexico State in first round, 75-56
Lost to Wichita State in second round, 78-65

2014 1-1 Defeated Eastern Kentucky in first round, 80-69
Lost to Stanford in second round, 60-57

2013 2-1 Defeated Western Kentucky in first round, 64-57
Defeated North Carolina in second round, 70-58
Lost to Michigan in regional semifinal, 87-85

2012 5-1 Defeated Detroit in first round, 65-50
Defeated Purdue in second round, 63-60
Defeated North Carolina State in regional semifinal, 60-57
Defeated North Carolina in regional final, 80-67
Defeated Ohio State in National Semifinal, 64-62
Lost to Kentucky in National Championship, 67-59

2011 3-1 Defeated Boston University in first round, 72-53
Defeated Illinois in second round, 73-59
Defeated Richmond in regional semifinal, 77-57
Lost to Virginia Commonwealth in regional final, 71-61

2010 1-1 Defeated Lehigh in first round, 90-74
Lost to Northern Iowa in second round, 69-67

2009 2-1 Defeated North Dakota State in first round, 84-74
Defeated Dayton in second round, 60-43
Lost to Michigan State in regional semifinal, 67-62

2008 6-0 Defeated Portland State in first round, 85-61
Defeated UNLV in second round, 75-56
Defeated Villanova in regional semifinal, 72-57
Defeated Davidson in regional final, 59-57
Defeated North Carolina in National Semifinal, 84-66
Defeated Memphis in National Championship, 75-68

2007 3-1 Defeated Niagara in first round, 107-67
Defeated Kentucky in second round, 88-76
Defeated Southern Illinois in regional semifinal, 61-58
Lost to UCLA in regional final, 68-55

2006 0-1 Lost to Bradley in first round, 77-73

2005 0-1 Lost to Bucknell in first round, 64-63
 
Okay, if that makes you feel better. I wasn't counting this year, so if you average our number of teams over the 10 years it comes out to 5th place out of 11.7 teams (5.85 is average). Your right, all is good.
Your math is wrong.

(1+11.7)/2 = 6.35

The question isn't whether Painter has produced above average by Big Ten standards. It's whether he's produced far enough above average. The Big Ten has a lot of tremendous coaches and some of them (Izzo, Ryan, and Matta, particularly), have set the standard in the Big Ten over the past several years. As long as Painter is in the second tier, some fans will be dissatisfied.

My opinion is that if Purdue were to replace Painter, it is highly probable that the program would take a step backwards. Painter is a very good coach and Purdue is a tougher job than most fans want to acknowledge. I also think that Painter is still young and growing and has a very bright future ahead of him.
 
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It's not a different opinion problem those people I called out are just flat out wrong. Don't like how I respond? Tough. Put on some big boy pants.

And the rest of your post just shows how little you know. You discount quickly that we are a top team which is more the norm for Purdue under Painter than not which completely proves we are above average. The rest of your comment is just utter nonsense and so much so that it stands on it's own stupidity so I don't even need to comment on it further.
Your response proves my point.

I think it's fine people have a different opinion than I do. That's what this board is for. My issue is the childish name calling when someone doesn't conform to your opinion.

Jim Jones would have loved you!
 
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There are lots of good coaches out there... Look what Wisconin did with Dick Bennet and Bo Ryan. They've been to 3 FF in the last 18 years with 2 different coaches. Do you really think Wisconsin is an easier school to land a coach than Purdue? No, they did it the right way both times. They went out and got the best coach they could, both of the same MO. Older, experienced, well respected game coaches. neither were top notch recruiters, but they knew how to win games and get the most out of their talent. Purdue has this mentality that they must hire one of their own... And it just hasn't worked. Look what happened when MB when outside of Purdue for a hire. Peck won a National Championship and Tiller took us to a Rose Bowl.

You didn't come up with a name that is available. Naming coaches in hindsight is lame
 
So even if we make the final four you think we should fire Painter for underachieving in the past or for some subjective opinion of his team's drive and desire? Wow. Just wow.
Yeah, I had to re-read that a couple of times to make sure I got it right. Truly amazing.
 
Your math is wrong.

(1+11.7)/2 = 6.35

The question isn't whether Painter has produced above average by Big Ten standards. It's whether he's produced far enough above average. The Big Ten has a lot of tremendous coaches and some of them (Izzo, Ryan, and Matta, particularly), have set the standard in the Big Ten over the past several years. As long as Painter is in the second tier, some fans will be dissatisfied.

My opinion is that if Purdue were to replace Painter, it is highly probable that the program would take a step backwards. Painter is a very good coach and Purdue is a tougher job than most fans want to acknowledge. I also think that Painter is still young and growing and has a very bright future ahead of him.
Other than Ryan I've not seen anything to convince me that Izzo or Matta are better coaches, but they have had substantially better talent...and I think recruiting is a lot more than just the coach. Bo was simply outstanding...
 
You didn't come up with a name that is available. Naming coaches in hindsight is lame
There are several I'd consider. Greg Marshall would be #1 on my list. Archie Miller, Chris Collins and I think Jon Coffman will be a very hot commodity if he gets IPFW to the tourney this year.
 
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So even if we make the final four you think we should fire Painter for underachieving in the past or for some subjective opinion of his team's drive and desire? Wow. Just wow.
I personally think we have a large enough sample size with Painter to know what we are going to get the next 25 years. I don't advocate firing Painter until we get a new AD and he has proven himself or otherwise we will end up with another Hope or Hazell.

If Painter gets us to a FF, I will applaud him. He could be the next Crean, Haskins, Sampson, or Davis.
 
In reading through this thread, it seems like part of the debate is driven by the fact that there is little commonality on which to calculate a meaningful "average". There's average by Purdue's own standards, there's average by 351 D1 teams, there's average by B1G, and probably more. And I think some people are getting way to hung up on the literal definition of the word anyway.

This argument, to me, is really more about how Purdue has performed against it's peers, which admittedly, creates then a new (and also potentially subjective) question as to who its peers are. Given that Purdue plays in a conference that is normally one of the better basketball conferences in the NCAA, performance in the B1G is probably a fair place from which to start - which I think is probably the viewpoint that @*4purdue* and @icewind7 where taking. I'd go a step further and broaden the peer group to other basketball conferences - ACC being a good example; football stinks there. Heck, maybe it should be all 5 power conferences, just because some are split between being - generally speaking - good at football vs. good at basketball.

So let's say you went that route of power 5 as your starting point. Next, you eliminate programs that during the period in question, which I think most would agree on 10 years; ...

I think you misunderstood the concept of "average." You can't eliminate a certain portion of the sample and call it an average. If you eliminate the bottom, you also gotta trim off the top. Can't remove Northwestern without removing Kentucky from the equation. That's just not how the math works! Please don't make a mistake that an IU grad would make.
 
There are several I'd consider. Greg Marshall would be #1 on my list. Archie Miller, Chris Collins and I think Jon Coffman will be a very hot commodity if he gets IPFW to the tourney this year.
Good post.

Now, if the Athletic Department were to bring in your top choice, how long would you give them to reach a FF before you start calling for a new coach?
 
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I am a big fan of Matt Painter and always will be.....

I think that now that he has his personal life in order, he is back to being hungry to getting Purdue to the next level....this year and beyond.

Remember this year is not over yet......I see big things still to happen.

If we can reload in 2017....good things to continue to come.....

Get back to Big Ten Championships and then better chances at the National Championship.

Boiler Up!
 
I think you misunderstood the concept of "average." You can't eliminate a certain portion of the sample and call it an average. If you eliminate the bottom, you also gotta trim off the top. Can't remove Northwestern without removing Kentucky from the equation. That's just not how the math works! Please don't make a mistake that an IU grad would make.
And I think you misunderstood the concept of "peer group". And funny enough, I did propose the possibility of removing Kentucky from the picture... perhaps you should re-read what I wrote.
 
There are several I'd consider. Greg Marshall would be #1 on my list. Archie Miller, Chris Collins and I think Jon Coffman will be a very hot commodity if he gets IPFW to the tourney this year.
I do NOT mean this as a slam to you. It is simply a fact that can be integrated into the discussion about a different coach. Your #1 guy just lost in his conference tournament. I will easily admit that he would be high on my list (other than midwest recruiting ties) if we needed to look for a coach, but every single coach stumbles .... every single one.

Admittedly, it was to a darn good team in OT. Oh, and by the way, he makes $3.3 million. Just sayin'.
 
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I do NOT mean this as a slam to you. It is simply a fact that can be integrated into the discussion about a different coach. Your #1 guy just lost in his conference tournament. I will easily admit that he would be high on my list (other than midwest recruiting ties) if we needed to look for a coach, but every single coach stumbles .... every single one.

Admittedly, it was to a darn good team in OT. Oh, and by the way, he makes $3.3 million. Just sayin'.
Your right, nobody wins every game. I don't expect that, but for a small school like WSU look at his tourney record the last 3 years & the teams he has beaten:

  • NCAA Tournament appearances
2015 (7) vs (10) Indiana (Won, 81–76)
(7) vs (2) Kansas (Won, 78–65)
(7) vs (3) Notre Dame (Lost, 81–70)
2014 (1) vs (16) Cal Poly (Won, 64-37)
(1) vs (8) Kentucky (Lost, 78-76)
2013 (9) vs (8) Pittsburgh (Won, 73–55)
(9) vs (1) Gonzaga (Won, 76–70)
(9) vs (13) LaSalle (Won, 72–58)
(9) vs (2) Ohio State (Won, 70–66)
(9) vs (1) Louisville (Lost, 72–68)

& the reason he makes $3.3 m. is because he is worth it. If CMP gets us to a FF, he would be worth it also. That's junk change for a university. Coach K is making like $10 million.
 
How long do you want to wait to see Purdue in a FF? If CMP gets us there great, but he hasn't... I think 10 years is a long time.
What coach would come to Purdue under those stipulations however? Basically it sounds like you are saying "A Final Four in ten years or you're fired. Nothing else matters".

We know you aren't a cmp fan so maybe you end up giving a new coach more leeway, but I can't imagine any coach agreeing to that.

That is just my interpretation of this whole thing. We all want a FF or better and things are most certainly trending up for us, but we also need to be realistic about it. We are inching our way closer to it and I still think CMP will get us there.

Just my 2 cents. Your point is just as valid.
 
What coach would come to Purdue under those stipulations however? Basically it sounds like you are saying "A Final Four in ten years or you're fired. Nothing else matters".

We know you aren't a cmp fan so maybe you end up giving a new coach more leeway, but I can't imagine any coach agreeing to that.

That is just my interpretation of this whole thing. We all want a FF or better and things are most certainly trending up for us, but we also need to be realistic about it. We are inching our way closer to it and I still think CMP will get us there.

Just my 2 cents. Your point is just as valid.
CMP is not leaving, so the point is moot. Hopefully he will get us there.
 
Agree. He does do things that deserve criticism however, all coaches do.
CMP is not leaving, so the point is moot. Hopefully he will get us there.
All I try to do is bring reality in regard to Painter and coaching in general. Both your posts do that. I have been in WAY too many situations in which someone decides to replace someone, and that replacement fails miserably. There is never a guarantee.

I guess the best solution is to understand that any coach that we might get if we needed to get one would generate about as much criticism as Painter does.
 
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Painter, all things considered, gets the job done and done very well. He has made in-game mistakes that have driven me crazy but I applaud his overall record and where the program is - on the uptick. He has had two teams that I felt could/would make the FF. One year we were derailed by an injury to our most important player and captain. The other, the story hasnt been finished yet. When you ask others to describe Purdue, you will hear words like: "Scrappy, hard-working, tenacious." What you dont hear?: "Athletic, One and Done, NBA breeding ground"

Lets face it, Purdue is not an elite program. Odds are it never will be, no matter how much I or anyone else wishes was/is. There are simple but glaring roadblocks to success that simply cant be overcome to be a national player every year. And by the way, none of which are coaching. Geography is a big one - West Lafayette (central Indiana as a whole) is not a desirable place to recruits - it just isn't. I love my school, but aesthetically it is not in the upper echelon of schools in the B1G let alone the NCAA. Facilities? Nope, in fact we have sub par facilities. And most important - Boosters to pay for the upgrades and perks that can overshadow the above two? Sadly, no. If you are an 18 year-old blue chip, are you picking Purdue? I would love to think they would but if we are honest with ourselves about who we are, we cant overcome these obstacles often enough to land blue chip talent, let alone consistently to be considered elite. Coaches can impact the game. Some greatly. But without talent, it doesn't matter how good of a coach you are, the deficit will catch up to you.

No matter how good a coach is in any sport, these areas are simply too big and too hard to overcome to compete every year. Your fooling yourself if you think that we can. What we can hope for each year is a competitive team, with some solid talent, that is in the upper portion of the B1G, and compete for league championships and high seeds every 4-6 years as solid classes become seniors. Why did we have a fall off after the Baby Boilers? To me it is simple, we could not recruit players because, on top of the tangible obstacles, they knew they would not be the focal point (or a starter for that matter) until they BBs left. We cant reload like UK or UNC. They dont recruit, they pick who they want. To use a baseball metaphor: They can swing for the fences every time out - they will always have talent. We need to hit singles and doubles, because if we miss we end up with the cupboard bare and wandering in the wilderness for years (see Purdue Football)

Matt has done well to put us in a position to to compete year in and year out. But if you are hoping to become like UK, UNC or Duke, you will be setting yourself up for disappointment. ALL the big programs across ALL sports have the things I mentioned earlier in spades: Facilities, Campus Life, and Boosters. We don't have any of them.
 
And I think you misunderstood the concept of "peer group". And funny enough, I did propose the possibility of removing Kentucky from the picture... perhaps you should re-read what I wrote.

Yes, "peer group." I would say the B1G and the other power conferences are the closest to it. But then you proposed removing the struggling ones, which beats the purpose of getting the average. That is like listing the curved grades of the student, and then removing anyone with F to say the one with B (although I'd say Purdue's grade is a solid B+) is only average. Average is only meaningful when you include EVERY relevant data points.

Also, removing Kentucky and others to balance things isn't also very effective. I only mentioned it to emphasize the problem of your approach. It is difficult to gauge a data point's contribution to the average or the validity of the entire sample. Do we remove the same number of schools both from the top and the bottom? What level of success or failure is the cut-off line? In fact, this eventually returns to the original problem: what is the correct definition of "peer group?"

But I would like to apologize for the IU grad remark. Totally my fault. Sorry about that. ;)
 
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