Rumblings that Bridges coming back to MSU

[DG10]

And you're judging based on potential and their rankings coming into college. That's fine but the further they get away from high school the less relevant those accolades are. At some point, the hype becomes completely irrelevant and the players just are what you see. What I saw last year from those two was not impressive in the least. Some players make a big jump from freshman to sophomore season like Swanigan did. I'll be paying close attention to see if those two show improvement as sophomores because they will need to if these top 5 and Final Four projections have any chance to come to fruition. I think many people are assuming substantial progression and frankly I'm not from those two.

They were freshman...not like they are juniors.

Langford shot 50% from the field and 42% from behind the arc...hard to knock that. Winston had a better than 2:1 Asst:TO ratio, and had respectable numbers as well from the field (better than Carsen in all categories). Both guys numbers blow away any of PJT's freshman numbers.

Again, the ONLY edge Purdue's backcourt had was with Thompson's experience...and, Thompson had a tremendous advantage with respect to what he was surrounded by.

Neither guy needs substantial progression quite frankly, although I expect both to have better and solid numbers this year due to the things that I had mentioned before already.

 

[BoilerBulldog]

MSU is still after PG Mark Smith I believe. He is advertised (IL MR. BB) as pretty good and could solve guard issues for them ...which I think was bad last year. Let's hope(for us) Mizzou pulls Smith in.

Mizzou just signed a PG. I believe I heard Smith has announced it is down to OSU and KY. At least that's what I remember hearing last week. He's taking officials to both.

 

[BoilerBulldog]

Curious. Where were they ranked in the preseason polls before last season?

Also, I'd expect them to be better than us unless there is some miracle and Swanigan comes back. But they will be better than us because of Bridges/Ward/JJJ and not because of their weak guards.

I think how they integrate JJJ and Bridges into the rotation is a bigger question mark than their guards. But I believe they're a Top 5 team next year if they figure it out. I agree with you if Biggie comes back we are right there with them. But I don't think that's realistic. I think we are a top 15-20 team with upside to the Top 10 if we have better than expected freshman impacts and we see solid improvement from Haas.

 

[Purdue Grad in Texas]

Curious. Where were they ranked in the preseason polls before last season?

Also, I'd expect them to be better than us unless there is some miracle and Swanigan comes back. But they will be better than us because of Bridges/Ward/JJJ and not because of their weak guards.

Michigan State was pre-season #9 (coaches/USA today) and #12 (AP). Purdue was #15 in both.

 

[DG10]

I think how they integrate JJJ and Bridges into the rotation is a bigger question mark than their guards. But I believe they're a Top 5 team next year if they figure it out. I agree with you if Biggie comes back we are right there with them. But I don't think that's realistic. I think we are a top 15-20 team with upside to the Top 10 if we have better than expected freshman impacts and we see solid improvement from Haas.

I may be wrong, but I don't think Purdue cracked the top 10 this past year, and that was with Swanigan...not only their best player, but, arguably the best player in the country last year. Haas fluctuated widely anywhere between dominant and irrelevant, although the dominance was more often when he was on the floor with Swanigan.

 

[blue2015]

We'll see how good JJJ is as a frosh. I'm still not impressed with either starting guard whatsoever and I think that will ultimately limit if those are the 2 that start and play the most minutes. Langford is ok and Beetlejuice needs to improve a bunch if he's going to lead a top ten team.

If Swanigan were to come back to Purdue we would be better than them next year. That much I know. Without Swanigan, they'll probably jump us but it will be because of their front line. Our guards will be better.

JJJ may be 1 and done. ESPN has him up to 6.
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-ba...on-all-tools-modern-big-michigan-state-beyond

 

[TC4THREE]

They were freshman...not like they are juniors.

Langford shot 50% from the field and 42% from behind the arc...hard to knock that. Winston had a better than 2:1 Asst:TO ratio, and had respectable numbers as well from the field (better than Carsen in all categories). Both guys numbers blow away any of PJT's freshman numbers.

Again, the ONLY edge Purdue's backcourt had was with Thompson's experience...and, Thompson had a tremendous advantage with respect to what he was surrounded by.

Neither guy needs substantial progression quite frankly, although I expect both to have better and solid numbers this year due to the things that I had mentioned before already.

I'm not comparing freshman PJT to freshman Beetlejuice. I'm comparing last year PJT to last year Beetlejuice. The "good for a freshman" stuff isn't going to cut it when you raise expectations to Top 5 and Final Four and I'd much rather have our guards next year than theirs. Obviously you disagree and that's fine. The strength of their their team next season will be their front line. Unless something changes in a big way, their guards will be a weakness when they face most other good teams.

Since you site a 2:1 A/T ratio for Beetlejuice, why don't we compare that to PJ's who was nearly 4:1? And Dakota was just as good a shooter (and a substantially better FT shooter) as Langford was but did it over a much larger volume and was an all-conference defender to top it off. You keep citing Carsen as if he was who I'm referring to. I'm not. He's a "potential" guy just like their two.

So yea, their guys have much work to do to catch up to where our guys are, let alone pass them. Maybe they'll get there but I'd take our guards (production) over theirs (potential) every single day of the week.

 

[TC4THREE]

I think how they integrate JJJ and Bridges into the rotation is a bigger question mark than their guards. But I believe they're a Top 5 team next year if they figure it out. I agree with you if Biggie comes back we are right there with them. But I don't think that's realistic. I think we are a top 15-20 team with upside to the Top 10 if we have better than expected freshman impacts and we see solid improvement from Haas.

I don't see our realistic upside without Swanigan being top ten. I kind of think we might hang round the 20-25 range and be in and out of the polls if things go relatively well compared to my expectations anyway. I just don't think MSU's upside is nearly what others are trying to project it to be at this point. They need two very big things to happen to have that type of season. First, JJJ has to be really good and I'm not talking "good for a freshman" good. Second, their guards have to get much, much better. Could both of those things happen? Sure....but I put the odds of both happening at much less than 50%.

 

[DG10]

I'm not comparing freshman PJT to freshman Beetlejuice. I'm comparing last year PJT to last year Beetlejuice. The "good for a freshman" stuff isn't going to cut it when you raise expectations to Top 5 and Final Four and I'd much rather have our guards next year than theirs. Obviously you disagree and that's fine. The strength of their their team next season will be their front line. Unless something changes in a big way, their guards will be a weakness when they face most other good teams.

Since you site a 2:1 A/T ratio for Beetlejuice, why don't we compare that to PJ's who was nearly 4:1? And Dakota was just as good a shooter (and a substantially better FT shooter) as Langford was but did it over a much larger volume and was an all-conference defender to top it off. You keep citing Carsen as if he was who I'm referring to. I'm not. He's a "potential" guy just like their two.

So yea, their guys have much work to do to catch up to where our guys are, let alone pass them. Maybe they'll get there but I'd take our guards (production) over theirs (potential) every single day of the week.

Purdue's backcourt was a collective no show against Kansas...and has been in other big time games against big time talented athletes also...the upside of Langford and Winston, who both were far more productive as freshman than any of Purdue's guards, is greater...and they have the past results and successes to support that as well. You are absolutely right, that it is on them to perform...but, if they do (and I believe they will), they are not only better...but potentially far better...and MSU is a legitimate FF team if they do...whereas I am of the opinion that Purdue was not and is not.

 

[BoilerBulldog]

I may be wrong, but I don't think Purdue cracked the top 10 this past year, and that was with Swanigan...not only their best player, but, arguably the best player in the country last year. Haas fluctuated widely anywhere between dominant and irrelevant, although the dominance was more often when he was on the floor with Swanigan.

Fair point. I'm being overly optimistic. But I think next year's team could be a better all around team if Eastern and Wheeler are better than we expect.

 

[TC4THREE]

Purdue's backcourt was a collective no show against Kansas...and has been in other big time games against big time talented athletes also...the upside of Langford and Winston, who both were far more productive as freshman than any of Purdue's guards, is greater...and they have the past results and successes to support that as well. You are absolutely right, that it is on them to perform...but, if they do (and I believe they will), they are not only better...but potentially far better...and MSU is a legitimate FF team if they do...whereas I am of the opinion that Purdue was not and is not.

MSU's backcourt was a no show against several less heralded teams also. I'll take consistency over upside. It really all boils down to how you project them to develop vs how I project them to develop and me having greater doubts about it than you. Guess we'll see.

 

[BoilerGal74]

CBS Sports has them as 3rd in their way too early 17/18 ranking. Purdue 24th.

https://www.google.com/amp/www.cbss...s-return-has-msu-third-in-top-25-and-one/amp/

...and you believe a lot of things you get from CBS....in any form??

 

[BoilerStation]

I think Purdue's guard play will be stronger and it's not even close. We have quite a few veterans in Mathias, Cline and PJ and Carsen gained some valuable experience plus the addition of Eastern. They are very thin at guard and comparing our guards as freshmen to theirs as freshmen is utterly useless because our guards aren't freshmen. It will be their weak point on a team that was very turnover prone. Balancing minutes and touches between JJJ, Bridges and Ward could be tough although Ward likes to commit stupid fouls removing himself from the game so maybe he's not as big of an issue. Any preseason top 5 ranking of MSU is basing it off of their maximum potential. Were we ranked on our maximum potential we would also be a top 10 team but we don't receive the kind of treatment they do. They were ranked the same way last year entirely on potential and finished well outside the top 25. They've had their share of transfers out of the program or players underachieving the past few years so to pretend like they always get the most is incorrect. They were not a good team last year and the 14 losses and multiple games barely winning is all the evidence I need to be skeptical of any poll ranking them inside the top 10.

 

[BoilerInChiTown]

...and you believe a lot of things you get from CBS....in any form??

I think MSU is a top 10 team and I think most polls will confirm that when they come out in the next few months. And I think Purdue is a top 20-30 team.

 

[Wolegib]

You can't really state our guard play will be a lot better if two of them are on the Bench or not playing guard! If Eastern or Mathias are going to play SF, you really can't say they are also part of our back court and compare them to MSU's guards! Much like you are not going to compare JJJ to Haas if JJJ primarily plays PF!

 

[BoilerStation]

You can't really state our guard play will be a lot better if two of them are on the Bench or not playing guard! If Eastern or Mathias are going to play SF, you really can't say they are also part of our back court and compare them to MSU's guards! Much like you are not going to compare JJJ to Haas if JJJ primarily plays PF!

You do know that a team can play a 3 guard lineup don't you? I suspect we will play 3 guards quite often with Vince at the 4 and Haas/Taylor/Haarms at the 5. We essentially started a 3 guard lineup nearly the entire season this past year.

 

[TC4THREE]

I think MSU is a top 10 team and I think most polls will confirm that when they come out in the next few months. And I think Purdue is a top 20-30 team.

Preseason polls don't confirm anything.

 

[BoilerGal74]

I think MSU is a top 10 team and I think most polls will confirm that when they come out in the next few months. And I think Purdue is a top 20-30 team.

My amusement was that you used CBS to make your opinion...not the opinion itself. I agree MSU will be competitive next year....just having fun about "make the news up as one goes " CBS....sorry .

 

[Wolegib]

You do know that a team can play a 3 guard lineup don't you? I suspect we will play 3 guards quite often with Vince at the 4 and Haas/Taylor/Haarms at the 5. We essentially started a 3 guard lineup nearly the entire season this past year.

I'm aware of that! I'm not a big fan of the 3 guard offense or the 3 guard defense or playing small ball! In my opinion you lose a lot of mismatches when your small forward is a 6'4-5 guard! I fully understand next year we're going to play Dakota or Eastern a lot at SF! I'd prefer to see Eastern playing PG and using his height to create mismatches and have Dakota at SG with V Edwards at SF! And yes I know that's not going to happen.

 

[BoilerStation]

I'm aware of that! I'm not a big fan of the 3 guard offense or the 3 guard defense or playing small ball! In my opinion you lose a lot of mismatches when your small forward is a 6'4-5 guard! I fully understand next year we're going to play Dakota or Eastern a lot at SF! I'd prefer to see Eastern playing PG and using his height to create mismatches and have Dakota at SG with V Edwards at SF! And yes I know that's not going to happen.

Eastern playing the point doesn't mean there will be a height advantage. The other team will stick a taller guard or wing on him to defend him and will use their smallest player on Dakota, PJ or CE depending on who is in. A player being put at a specific position at one end doesn't guarantee him the opposing teams player at the same position will be guarding him. You may not be a fan of playing small ball but it is catching or being implemented at quite a few schools as a well as in the NBA very successfully.

 

[nagemj02]

You do know that a team can play a 3 guard lineup don't you? I suspect we will play 3 guards quite often with Vince at the 4 and Haas/Taylor/Haarms at the 5. We essentially started a 3 guard lineup nearly the entire season this past year.

Not only did Purdue play a three-guard starting lineup last season, they've used that in their primary starting lineups every season (with the exception of the 2015-2016 season) that Matt Painter has been the head coach:

Going by the guards that had the most starts over the course of each entire season:

'05-'06: 1 Bryant Dillon, 2/1 Chris Lutz, 2 Chris Hartley

'06-'07: 1/2 Keaton Grant, 2/1 Chris Kramer, 2/3 David Teague

'07-'08: 1/2 Keaton Grant, 2/1 Chris Kramer, 2/3 E'Twaun Moore

'08-'09: 1 Lewis Jackson, 2/1 Chris Kramer, 2/3 E'Twaun Moore

'09-'10: 1/2 Keaton Grant, 2/1 Chris Kramer, 2/3 E'Twaun Moore

'10-'11: 1 Lewis Jackson, 2 Ryne Smith, 2/3 E'Twaun Moore

'11-'12: 1 Lewis Jackson, 2 Ryne Smith, 1/3 Kelsey Barlow

'12-'13: 1 Ronnie Johnson, 2/1 Terone Johnson, 2/3 Rapheal Davis (one could argue that Davis was more of a forward than a guard: I considered him to be a wing guard)

'13-'14: 1 Ronnie Johnson, 2/1 Terone Johnson, 2 Kendall Stephens

'14-'15: 1 Jon Octeus, 2 Dakota Mathias, 2/3 Rapheal Davis

'16-'17: 1/2 P.J Thompson, 2/1 Carsen Edwards, 2 Dakota Mathias

 

[Boiler Buck]

Not only did Purdue play a three-guard starting lineup last season, they've used that in their primary starting lineups every season (with the exception of the 2015-2016 season) that Matt Painter has been the head coach:

Going by the guards that had the most starts over the course of each entire season:

'05-'06: 1 Bryant Dillon, 2/1 Chris Lutz, 2 Chris Hartley

'06-'07: 1/2 Keaton Grant, 2/1 Chris Kramer, 2/3 David Teague

'07-'08: 1/2 Keaton Grant, 2/1 Chris Kramer, 2/3 E'Twaun Moore

'08-'09: 1 Lewis Jackson, 2/1 Chris Kramer, 2/3 E'Twaun Moore

'09-'10: 1/2 Keaton Grant, 2/1 Chris Kramer, 2/3 E'Twaun Moore

'10-'11: 1 Lewis Jackson, 2 Ryne Smith, 2/3 E'Twaun Moore

'11-'12: 1 Lewis Jackson, 2 Ryne Smith, 1/3 Kelsey Barlow

'12-'13: 1 Ronnie Johnson, 2/1 Terone Johnson, 2/3 Rapheal Davis (one could argue that Davis was more of a forward than a guard: I considered him to be a wing guard)

'13-'14: 1 Ronnie Johnson, 2/1 Terone Johnson, 2 Kendall Stephens

'14-'15: 1 Jon Octeus, 2 Dakota Mathias, 2/3 Rapheal Davis

'16-'17: 1/2 P.J Thompson, 2/1 Carsen Edwards, 2 Dakota Mathias

And CMP will continue with 3 guards.......just recruiting bigger guards now with 6-6 Eastern and 6-8 Wheeler. I know alot of people see Wheeler as a forward, but he is just a skinny long guard in the Corey Brewer of FL mode. I don't know if these two will be ready right away, I hope they are, but I think in a couple years in they certainly could be two guys to build around.

Going back, Hummel was just a big guard playing with those teams. So you could say he had 4 guards then... The way I look at it.