Recruiting improvements?

[BoilerIron]

Biggie had more accolades in high school than George did. He was more heralded than George in pretty much every way possible. Plus, those advantages Painter had with Biggie, Brohm had with George spending the last several years in West Lafayette and his family being so close. George is definitely not a better recruit than Biggie. That's just stuff you're making up to fit your narrative.

As for your last sentence, agree for the most part. But that doesn't really matter, just get good players, who cares where they are from. Missing on Hall and Llewellyn were as big as any in-state misses the last several years because we had a shot with those guys.

It is harder for a football program like ours to recruit against the elite football schools than it is for our basketball program to recruit against the elite schools. Karlaftis is a defensive player, so of course he wasn't in the running for Mr. Football or other accolades. The fact that there is only one player that can even be argued as a better recruit is an issue.

I think we will just have to agree to disagree.

 

[tjreese]

Ah, yes, I recognize the style. From what I recall in the past, he does seem to have ramped up the hyperbole a bit.

Yeah, but he is not alone. There are others that agree with him. There has never been a coach that all agree with or that some do not think he is worthy of their team. In every single level that happens. I know coaches (football and basketball) that do not want to sit beside a fan in "any game" (not even a team they may NOT have coached previously or had some association with) because they think the vast majority of fans are much better fans than coaches. Anyway, my point is that every forum, every gym, every coach has support and have those that want them removed...just life.

I have my thoughts and I could be wrong and some have their thoughts and don't question if they could be wrong.

 

[Poprudy]

Yeah, but he is not alone. There are others that agree with him. There has never been a coach that all agree with or that some do not think he is worthy of their team. In every single level that happens. I know coaches (football and basketball) that do not want to sit beside a fan in "any game" (not even a team they may NOT have coached previously or had some association with) because they think the vast majority of fans are much better fans than coaches. Anyway, my point is that every forum, every gym, every coach has support and have those that want them removed...just life.

I have my thoughts and I could be wrong and some have their thoughts and don't question if they could be wrong.

We all want the same success but we just seem to have different opinions on how to get there. CMP is a good guy but I met Crean once while recruiting Williams a bit odd but a really nice guy. Nice guys don't always finish first in this profession.

 

[ThreeTwaunMoore]

It is harder for a football program like ours to recruit against the elite football schools than it is for our basketball program to recruit against the elite schools.

Are you familiar with the FBI investigation into college basketball that surfaced last summer? Painter's recruiting leaves a lot to be desired IMO but this whole comparing football to basketball thing is just silly.

 

[Poprudy]

Are you familiar with the FBI investigation into college basketball that surfaced last summer? Painter's recruiting leaves a lot to be desired IMO but this whole comparing football to basketball thing is just silly.

I get what you're saying but we have been a perennial top 25-35 program for a very long time. In football we were basically starting from scratch or in no way near our basketball success. Just look at our history on both sides and you can clearly see in the B1G we are one of the top basketball programs. Football not so much....

 

[BoilerIron]

Are you familiar with the FBI investigation into college basketball that surfaced last summer? Painter's recruiting leaves a lot to be desired IMO but this whole comparing football to basketball thing is just silly.

I'm very familiar with the FBI investigation. If anything, it created another excuse to use for Painter's poor recruiting. The issue is that none of the schools we usually lose recruits to (big ten schools) were implicated other than Maryland.

I agree that comparing stars and rankings is dumb between football and basketball. However, comparing talent level is fair imo. I mostly just grow sick and tired of all the excuses (not directed at you) that some fans make to try and excuse Painter's recruiting.

 

[Poprudy]

This is what is frustrating. We can't seem to lock down recruiting even after a NBA draftee or a 30 win season. I'll give CMP one thing and that is he is loyal and tells a recruit how he feels. I just want to see a spring board in recruiting and if that means get a salesman with a sales pitch then do it. Cal is a salesman for sure, it may seem dirty but Saban does the same. Usually equates to good recruiting.

 

[Poprudy]

Telling a top 25 recruit that he will take 2 years to go pro is not one. These kids want to hear the now and that's just the flat out truth. People can say it's a millennial thing but it's a reality thing.

 

[tjreese]

We all want the same success but we just seem to have different opinions on how to get there. CMP is a good guy but I met Crean once while recruiting Williams a bit odd but a really nice guy. Nice guys don't always finish first in this profession.

What was important in my text with the implication that although different opinions are held was the reason for those different opinions. Each opinion is derived by different experiences some more pertinent than others...(this is a problem in teh government schools and workforce fads and has been for some time in believing that all opinions are the same value and I say that very carefully to not elevate too much some positions becasue that is wrong as well) and that could be extended within a group of coaches and a group of fans and there will be some cross pollination between each.

FWIW, Kim (in my pics) has a friend that was best friends with Crean and a Trustee for IU. Crean went to his house and offered him all his IU clothing and such prior to leaving and he said he was a nice man. I believe he was a nice man as well...and NO DOUBT a bit ODD!

Bottom line...in all of life quite a dispersion of opinions are held in a majority of subjects and not being one to genuflect to a perceived authority as a blanket approach, I'm also aware that those people have a background much different than I and should be more informed adn yet aware that they can be wrong as well. Opinions are not formed with the same set of understandings and so it might make sense to consider that the reasons that developed our opinions may be wrong...no matter what side of the aisle we are on...

 

[PU pit bull]

Not sure there is an agenda since none of us at THIS table have any meaningful input into the future of Purdue basektball. That said DAG10 almost two decades ago was DG10 and not a Keady or Matt fan...but I'm sure one was more distasteful than the other. He has been consistent for many years and so I don't see him trying to jab here and there, but just expressing his views that have went on a long time...views that obviously some share.

Going back to around 1 1/2 decades ago ...around 2004, Purdue had recruited Robert Vaden who Mike Davis (IU) ended up capturing from Purdue . Most thought since eighth grade Robert was Purdue's. DG10 posted a lot about that loss..how Davis attended chruch with Robert etc. BTW, when Davis was canned, Robert followed him to UAB.

DG10 was also very vocal during the Ronnie Johnson time and critical of the coaching...essentially playing Ronnie Johnson.

So, I think it is safe to say DG10 is a critic...particularly of Purdue basketball for the last several years and so nothing has changed. However, I think he wishes Purdue well...just not happy with Purdue the last several years...AND no doubt there are others as well.

So he's been a bitter, bitter PU fan for a very long time then? Not really sure what to tell the guy. There has been some ups and downs like most programs...….but certainly there has been some unbelievable teams and games won in that period. In all seriousness, it might be time to find another program IMO.

 

[Poprudy]

So he's been a bitter, bitter PU fan for a very long time then? Not really sure what to tell the guy. There has been some ups and downs like most programs...….but certainly there has been some unbelievable teams and games won in that period. In all seriousness, it might be time to find another program IMO.

I disagree. He just wants to see something that hasn't happened at Purdue. There is nothing wrong with that and that's why we have an AD to determine that. I would often say the same to posters but they are entitled to an opinion just as I. We want success but have different opinions on what success means. I hope we get to a point where we are debating if we make a NC or FF.

 

[PU pit bull]

Telling a top 25 recruit that he will take 2 years to go pro is not one. These kids want to hear the now and that's just the flat out truth. People can say it's a millennial thing but it's a reality thing.

You can't believe it is that easy? And then what happens when it does take 2 or 3 or 4 years to go pro? You don't think that would get around that CMP/PU can't keep their promises? This whole recruiting thing is more complex......and dirty...…..than I think most of us really know IMO.

 

[PU pit bull]

I disagree. He just wants to see something that hasn't happened at Purdue. There is nothing wrong with that and that's why we have an AD to determine that. I would often say the same to posters but they are entitled to an opinion just as I. We want success but have different opinions on what success means. I hope we get to a point where we are debating if we make a NC or FF.

Wanting something different and just flat out having a closed mind are two different things. Doesn't sound like he liked Keady, and never gave CMP a chance either. And that's fine, but at least IMO, that makes for a helluva bitter time frame. PU basketball hasn't been that tough to root for LOL. So be it though.

 

[Poprudy]

You can't believe it is that easy? And then what happens when it does take 2 or 3 or 4 years to go pro? You don't think that would get around that CMP/PU can't keep their promises? This whole recruiting thing is more complex......and dirty...…..than I think most of us really know IMO.

Oh, I know it's more complex than that but don't even speak that way to a top 25 recruit. Whomever is involved with the recruiting process usually do not want to hear that. No different than a top 100 recruit wanting to hear they will sit the bench. I know a certain Father who took that as a slap in the face.

 

[Poprudy]

Wanting something different and just flat out having a closed mind are two different things. Doesn't sound like he liked Keady, and never gave CMP a chance either. And that's fine, but at least IMO, that makes for a helluva bitter time frame. PU basketball hasn't been that tough to root for LOL. So be it though.

I agree, 100% I will back Purdue regardless. I have become numb to Purdue's success in the tournament.

 

[BoilerIron]

Oh, I know it's more complex than that but don't even speak that way to a top 25 recruit. Whomever is involved with the recruiting process usually do not want to hear that. No different than a top 100 recruit wanting to hear they will sit the bench. I know a certain Father who took that as a slap in the face.

Brooks?

 

[Poprudy]

Brooks?

Unfortunately, yes

 

[PU pit bull]

Oh, I know it's more complex than that but don't even speak that way to a top 25 recruit. Whoever is involved with the recruiting process usually do not want to hear that. No different than a top 100 recruit wanting to hear they will sit the bench. I know a certain Father who took that as a slap in the face.

I gotcha. I just know that it seems that we hear more good things said about CMP and his recruiting style by our commits than any bad things said. I know that the next thing said to me will be that those are all from lowly 3 star and 4 star recruits mouths. I suppose it does mean that a lot of these 5 stars need something else...….and that is when a coach has to decide how far he wants to go, and at what cost......morally, ethically, and even legally. Certainly not EVERY coach has gone down that road...…….but the more that turns up with the investigations, etc. I have to believe there has been a lot of souls sold over the years.

 

[PU pit bull]

I agree, 100% I will back Purdue regardless. I have become numb to Purdue's success in the tournament.

Sure it could be better. Those Robinson, Hummel, Haas, etc "incidents" will always haunt me. Any one of those teams could have done it, but it is what it is.

 

[DAG10]

Wanting something different and just flat out having a closed mind are two different things. Doesn't sound like he liked Keady, and never gave CMP a chance either. And that's fine, but at least IMO, that makes for a helluva bitter time frame. PU basketball hasn't been that tough to root for LOL. So be it though.

No closed mind or agenda...at all.

Keady, much like his protege, struggled with the exact same things, and, had the exact same philosophies for most part...which in large part is why Purdue has not been in a FF since 1980.

Both win a lot of games...neither has won a lot of meaningful ones when considering the NCAA tournament, and, each has inexcusably lost several.

I actually see Painter as more of a Bruce Weber...very similar in many ways.

My knocks on Painter are simple...he struggles with recruiting...he is set in his ways...he does not have a quality staff...and, he generally is at his worst when it matters most unfortunately. Same things were true for Keady for much of his time at Purdue.

Nice guy...good face of/for the program...works hard. There absolutely are worse coaches...and, no doubt that things could be worse...I happen to believe that they could be (and should have been) better is all.

I have no agenda though at all...my stance has been clear for a long time, and, it has remained the same. I was one of the most vocal proponents of making sure that Purdue kept Painter when the whole Missouri thing came about...I thought that Painter early on was outstanding (in part because I thought he was good, but, that he had a good staff initially as well). He failed to round out the great recruiting class that he had, and, worse...he failed to capitalize on the success that group had and the exposure that they received.

I would be stunned if Purdue fired Painter...it just is not the Purdue way (especially under the previous AD)...I accept that...I just don't like it.

If there was actually anyone affiliated with Purdue that I genuinely did not like at all, it is Morgan Burke...I rejoiced the day that he announced that he was leaving, only to be crushed when he ultimately stayed...I admittedly had/have great disdain for him, but, he is really the only one that I feel that way about...although I never was and still am not a Hazell fan in any way (that said, my feelings for/about him are a result of Burke as well as Burke is the one that not only hired him, but, set him up to fail as well).

Anyway...I have no agenda, and, am not bitter...I have attended Purdue games consistently and regularly for more than 40 years...I have seen plenty of losses along the way and over that time...I have enjoyed a lot of wins and great atmospheres as well...been to multiple NCAA tournament games...been to multiple bowl games (including being able to attend the Rose Bowl with my Dad)...have known and know many Purdue players and coaches...have actually "coached" several of them...and love Purdue University as much or more than anybody. I feel blessed and cursed at the same time as a lifelong and die-hard Purdue fan...just as I did (and still do to an extent) as a lifelong and die-hard Cubs fan.

 

[PU pit bull]

Unfortunately, yes

Yeah I'm from the Fort too......I'll keep my mouth shut about him LOL

 

[tjreese]

No closed mind or agenda...at all.

Keady, much like his protege, struggled with the exact same things, and, had the exact same philosophies for most part...which in large part is why Purdue has not been in a FF since 1980.

Both win a lot of games...neither has won a lot of meaningful ones when considering the NCAA tournament, and, each has inexcusably lost several.

I actually see Painter as more of a Bruce Weber...very similar in many ways.

My knocks on Painter are simple...he struggles with recruiting...he is set in his ways...he does not have a quality staff...and, he generally is at his worst when it matters most unfortunately. Same things were true for Keady for much of his time at Purdue.

Nice guy...good face of/for the program...works hard. There absolutely are worse coaches...and, no doubt that things could be worse...I happen to believe that they could be (and should have been) better is all.

I have no agenda though at all...my stance has been clear for a long time, and, it has remained the same. I was one of the most vocal proponents of making sure that Purdue kept Painter when the whole Missouri thing came about...I thought that Painter early on was outstanding (in part because I thought he was good, but, that he had a good staff initially as well). He failed to round out the great recruiting class that he had, and, worse...he failed to capitalize on the success that group had and the exposure that they received.

I would be stunned if Purdue fired Painter...it just is not the Purdue way (especially under the previous AD)...I accept that...I just don't like it.

If there was actually anyone affiliated with Purdue that I genuinely did not like at all, it is Morgan Burke...I rejoiced the day that he announced that he was leaving, only to be crushed when he ultimately stayed...I admittedly had/have great disdain for him, but, he is really the only one that I feel that way about...although I never was and still am not a Hazell fan in any way (that said, my feelings for/about him are a result of Burke as well as Burke is the one that not only hired him, but, set him up to fail as well).

Anyway...I have no agenda, and, am not bitter...I have attended Purdue games consistently and regularly for more than 40 years...I have seen plenty of losses along the way and over that time...I have enjoyed a lot of wins and great atmospheres as well...been to multiple NCAA tournament games...been to multiple bowl games (including being able to attend the Rose Bowl with my Dad)...have known and know many Purdue players and coaches...have actually "coached" several of them...and love Purdue University as much or more than anybody. I feel blessed and cursed at the same time as a lifelong and die-hard Purdue fan...just as I did (and still do to an extent) as a lifelong and die-hard Cubs fan.

Not only accurate of your postings, but I consider this very fair...even if I have disagreements in why things transpired as they did...

 

[Do Dah Day]

No closed mind or agenda...at all.

Keady, much like his protege, struggled with the exact same things, and, had the exact same philosophies for most part...which in large part is why Purdue has not been in a FF since 1980.

Both win a lot of games...neither has won a lot of meaningful ones when considering the NCAA tournament, and, each has inexcusably lost several.

I actually see Painter as more of a Bruce Weber...very similar in many ways.

My knocks on Painter are simple...he struggles with recruiting...he is set in his ways...he does not have a quality staff...and, he generally is at his worst when it matters most unfortunately. Same things were true for Keady for much of his time at Purdue.

Nice guy...good face of/for the program...works hard. There absolutely are worse coaches...and, no doubt that things could be worse...I happen to believe that they could be (and should have been) better is all.

I have no agenda though at all...my stance has been clear for a long time, and, it has remained the same. I was one of the most vocal proponents of making sure that Purdue kept Painter when the whole Missouri thing came about...I thought that Painter early on was outstanding (in part because I thought he was good, but, that he had a good staff initially as well). He failed to round out the great recruiting class that he had, and, worse...he failed to capitalize on the success that group had and the exposure that they received.

I would be stunned if Purdue fired Painter...it just is not the Purdue way (especially under the previous AD)...I accept that...I just don't like it.

If there was actually anyone affiliated with Purdue that I genuinely did not like at all, it is Morgan Burke...I rejoiced the day that he announced that he was leaving, only to be crushed when he ultimately stayed...I admittedly had/have great disdain for him, but, he is really the only one that I feel that way about...although I never was and still am not a Hazell fan in any way (that said, my feelings for/about him are a result of Burke as well as Burke is the one that not only hired him, but, set him up to fail as well).

Anyway...I have no agenda, and, am not bitter...I have attended Purdue games consistently and regularly for more than 40 years...I have seen plenty of losses along the way and over that time...I have enjoyed a lot of wins and great atmospheres as well...been to multiple NCAA tournament games...been to multiple bowl games (including being able to attend the Rose Bowl with my Dad)...have known and know many Purdue players and coaches...have actually "coached" several of them...and love Purdue University as much or more than anybody. I feel blessed and cursed at the same time as a lifelong and die-hard Purdue fan...just as I did (and still do to an extent) as a lifelong and die-hard Cubs fan.

IN now way is this a challenge, but I am curious what you mean by "have coached them." Can be very general. but that statements interests me.

 

[Poprudy]

Yeah I'm from the Fort too......I'll keep my mouth shut about him LOL

I know, he has burnt some bridges or he has established himself as being selfish in some eyes.is this RK? Just curious

 

[tjreese]

IN now way is this a challenge, but I am curious what you mean by "have coached them." Can be very general. but that statements interests me.

DG10 can correct me, but think he said before he helped coach an AAU team that some of the players were on in case he takes a while. Just testing my memory from many years ago since I'm getting older. I did test out decent in my previous understandings... No whiskey/bourbon damage or at least not too much damage...

 

[Do Dah Day]

DG10 can correct me, but think he said before he helped coach an AAU team that some of the players were on in case he takes a while. Just testing my memory from many years ago since I'm getting older. I did test out decent in my previous understandings... No whiskey/bourbon damage or at least not too much damage...

I need to minimize. Ok, that's a reasonable explanation. He must be our age LOL

 

[tjreese]

I need to minimize. Ok, that's a reasonable explanation. He must be our age LOL

hope he joins in...I'm thinking upper 40s to low 50s...younger! Aren't they all?

 

[Do Dah Day]

hope he joins in...I'm thinking upper 40s to low 50s...younger! Aren't they all?

*deep sigh*, yes, yes they all are. My hip reminded me today that they ALL are. And that bourbon is not my friend anymore. Nor is anyone with a negative attitude. I have no time left for anything but fun and funny. And all my kids that were in house yesterday. A rare and wondrous occuraence.

 

[DAG10]

IN now way is this a challenge, but I am curious what you mean by "have coached them." Can be very general. but that statements interests me.

I use the word very loosely, and, thus why I had quotes around "coached" in the post...in that the guys I helped with certainly did not need my tutelage (other than maybe some general life information), and, in that I helped with teams from a coaching standpoint and was not their Head Coach.

 

[DAG10]

DG10 can correct me, but think he said before he helped coach an AAU team that some of the players were on in case he takes a while. Just testing my memory from many years ago since I'm getting older. I did test out decent in my previous understandings... No whiskey/bourbon damage or at least not too much damage...

You are correct...so, your memory is good!

Still have good friendships with all of those guys as well, and, led to more friendships...I have formed friendships with coaches and players that make me shake my head on a regular basis...I am friends with guys that were among the very first Purdue autographs that I had as a kid, and, my kids have been blessed as a result with respect to who they have met and been around and got to know.

 

[ThreeTwaunMoore]

I'm very familiar with the FBI investigation. If anything, it created another excuse to use for Painter's poor recruiting. The issue is that none of the schools we usually lose recruits to (big ten schools) were implicated other than Maryland.

I agree that comparing stars and rankings is dumb between football and basketball. However, comparing talent level is fair imo. I mostly just grow sick and tired of all the excuses (not directed at you) that some fans make to try and excuse Painter's recruiting.

My dude, the FBI investigation is not an excuse, it explains how college basketball recruiting works. The elite programs you want us winning recruits over (Sean Miller/Bill Self/Dana Altman, etc.) are literally paying recruits on top of their already solid tradition. How the heck is Purdue supposed to compete with that? Who knows who else is playing the same game; I'm not naive enough to think that the only people cheating in college basketball were named in the trial. It's not a fair fight. Now, with that said, Painter is not a good recruiter. Those things aren't mutually exclusive.

 

[Do Dah Day]

You are correct...so, your memory is good!

Still have good friendships with all of those guys as well, and, led to more friendships...I have formed friendships with coaches and players that make me shake my head on a regular basis...I am friends with guys that were among the very first Purdue autographs that I had as a kid, and, my kids have been blessed as a result with respect to who they have met and been around and got to know.

I suspect we have run into each other then ... those early boilers were mostly all fun guys .... and get more so as we have aged. Not that the recent ones are not ... I just am not close with many of the most recent ones.

 

[tjreese]

My dude, the FBI investigation is not an excuse, it explains how college basketball recruiting works. The elite programs you want us winning recruits over (Sean Miller/Bill Self/Dana Altman, etc.) are literally paying recruits on top of their already solid tradition. How the heck is Purdue supposed to compete with that? Who knows who else is playing the same game; I'm not naive enough to think that the only people cheating in college basketball were named in the trial. It's not a fair fight. Now, with that said, Painter is not a good recruiter. Those things aren't mutually exclusive.

not a good recruiter with star power, but still not a total loss as a recruiter either. Purdue isn't winning with smoke and mirrors and Matt is a good coach, and still gets some talent...just not the pick of the litter some get

 

[bonefish1]

My dude, the FBI investigation is not an excuse, it explains how college basketball recruiting works. The elite programs you want us winning recruits over (Sean Miller/Bill Self/Dana Altman, etc.) are literally paying recruits on top of their already solid tradition. How the heck is Purdue supposed to compete with that? Who knows who else is playing the same game; I'm not naive enough to think that the only people cheating in college basketball were named in the trial. It's not a fair fight. Now, with that said, Painter is not a good recruiter. Those things aren't mutually exclusive.

Of these programs, tell us who you believe “cheats”
MSU
Um
Osu
Iu
Vandy
Nova
Duke
Unc
Uk
Lville
Florida
fsu
Kansas
Tx
UCLA
Oregon
Cuse
Zona
Ok
Purdue

 

[bonefish1]

not a good recruiter with star power, but still not a total loss as a recruiter either. Purdue isn't winning with smoke and mirrors and Matt is a good coach, and still gets some talent...just not the pick of the litter some get

The bottom line is, Painter gets enough talent to compete in the B10 and get to the tourney but not enough to make deep tourney runs.
His ceiling is the S16 with the talent he gets.

 

[PU pit bull]

The bottom line is, Painter gets enough talent to compete in the B10 and get to the tourney but not enough to make deep tourney runs.
His ceiling is the S16 with the talent he gets.

What are your thoughts on a healthy Hummel or Haas? And try to be honest LOL.

 

[Poprudy]

What are your thoughts on a healthy Hummel or Haas? And try to be honest LOL.

I know this wasn't directed towards me but has to be Hummel. That team was primed for a deep run. Throw in a Scott Martin and we are a potential NC. I truly think that was possible.

 

[tjreese]

The bottom line is, Painter gets enough talent to compete in the B10 and get to the tourney but not enough to make deep tourney runs.
His ceiling is the S16 with the talent he gets.

Actually, I disagree with that and I think others would too. He does get enough talent to compete in the Big and he has had enough talent to go farther than the S16. I think most believe that if Robbie doesn't get injured they get past the team that beat them that went to the final four and there are many that think without Haas getting injured that team last year, as well, had enough talent to get past the S16 and so I doubt many would agree that his ceiling is the S16.

That said you might find more in agreement that he doesn't have enough talent day in and day out to get past the S16 which I can agree with "today"...However, since you seem to persist to imagine a future that many wouldn't you are welcome to ignore those teams and say the S16 is the best and neither one of us can state with certainty that we are correct...and that is okay. I can live with a disagreement and be more concerned if I had everyone in agreement with me

 

[tjreese]

What are your thoughts on a healthy Hummel or Haas? And try to be honest LOL.

didn't see your response before I posted

 

[Poprudy]

A healthy Haas would've been nice because he was so efficient on the offensive side. I will say even without him we had enough experience to beat Tech. We seemed to have played their game the second half.