This game and other previous tournament failures have proved that the model of getting a great post and surrounding him with great shooters is outdated and inferior. The superior model is getting dynamic, interchangable athletes.
Outdated System
- Thread starter Cevol03
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I agree 100%. Your two best scorers can't be on the floor at the same time.
Yup, no doubt. Its also unfair to ask PJ to guard someone like Mason, Cline to guard someone like Graham, and Dakota to guard someone like Jackson. What would we expect with that?
If we could get ONE defender it would be good. ONE Kenny Lowe, Chris Kramer, Raef Davis. Someone to put on their best dude. If Mathias is the stopper, that is a B- stopper
Never understood the talk all season where some people thought Dakota was an elite defender (like Dakich). He is a good defender and improved significantly but he is not elite.
I wouldn't let 1 game overshadow this team. We played really bad and they played really good. Do we need more athletes... Without a doubt, but I don't think this team is that far away from being really good. Losing Basil and Bryson hurt our athleticism... But they just didn't fit.
A defensive stopper would not have made any difference in this game. Those guys can't stop players like these. You need to outscore other teams now. You "also" play defense (especially if your coach is a one trick pony).
A defensive stopper can't do anything when you're jacking up stupid threes or throwing the ball to the other team and letting them dunk on you in the open court.
I totally agree. And I think we get WAY more athletic next year.
Purdue is playing 20 years behind. This might be the clearest example of that ever. This was a total and complete smoking all the way around. Purdue needs athletes. They utterly destroyed us with their athleticism. Couple that with schools like Kansas don't have to attend classes like North Carolina and gets a home game in sweet 16. They got an advantage let's just be clear. Schools like North Carolina basically their education is basketball. They got 4 classes practice at 10, 12, 3, and 6. Nobody gets in trouble except a slap on wrist. It is what it is. I mean yah a school paid a couple athletes oh no, but fake tests hand out fake degrees no classes fake tests? Punishment? Nothing but praise on TV and NCAA loves it because they are making money selling the same repetitive UNC, Kansas, Duke everybody else sucks product.
Anyone think Purdue gets a home game in sweet 16? It's time to recruit local and try to tie down in state athletes. Swannigan a classic example. Purdue needs to seriously evaluate this game. Defense non existent. We need two or three Swannigans on same team. Kansas had 5 Swannigans to 1. Painter needs to learn this lesson and so do other Purdue coaches. We need to go hard on innstate 5 stars. Give them a reason not to go to Kansas or a school like that. Indiana has a lot of them so let's start giving them reasons to stay.
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I don't know that it's athletes so much as having 4 mcdonalds all Americans. If the shooters that we surrounded our mcdonalds all American with were also mcdonalds all Americans, then I'm sure that strategy works just fine.
Kansas has a number of criminal investigations ongoing for a variety of crimes. Perhaps thats life in the Big 12, but all those players are involved in investigations on rape, vandalism, http://www.kansascity.com/sports/college/big-12/university-of-kansas/article128646254.html
Purdue failed to control the tempo of the game in the second half. The lack of players that can create off of their dribble against competition like this (Mathias, Cline, Thompson: although PJ played about as well as he could in this game; VE didn't even try to in this one for some reason) and the inability to make any significant adjustments defensively or create any isolation or other creative plays offensively gave them no chance to come back once Kansas was up by double-digits.
I agree and I think that this game shows why Painter went after the players he did. With the incoming athleticism it seems to suggest Painter is moving away from the old system and getting players to fit something new.
We will have reinforcements coming next year and some will be rim protectors which would've helped last night. CMP is evolving even though it has taken some time but we'll get there.
Will freshman be ready/able to contribute? I know the Hummel-Martin-Moore-Johnson was the exception. Even Swanigan was not terrific as a freshman.
CMP has gone after athletes before and that's when the team couldn't throw a beach ball into the ocean. That's why recruiting, especially in this day in age is so crucial. Athletes that can also shoot are what make teams like KU and UK. Not saying that's the only way to win but CMP has to get the proper blend because all of his teams have had glaring holes in them. When we shoot well we don't have the athletes, when we have the athletes we can't shoot. I will say as down as I am on CMP as HC right now it looks like he may be addressing this issue for the coming years. All in one class... Lets just hope they stay with Purdue and stay out of trouble...
you win in March with guards... especially in today's college basketball with how the game is called..
We got some good wings coming in to pair with CE
We got some good wings coming in to pair with CE
I really hope. For his sake, cause he seems like a good kid and for Purdue's sake Taylor can make some kind of impact and stay healthy through the rest of his time here. Hes no Biggie but he could help fill the void a bit.
Rights, its not an either or proposition. You don't have to choose between great athletes and great shooters. Its a balance, but we are too far in one direction right now. Its great to sign the best shooter in the country in every recruiting class, but if that player cannot ever beat their man off the dribble and cannot contain their man on defense, they will get exposed against teams like KU, Louisville, etc.
CMP realized that this needed to change after the VCU tournament game 6 years ago. It was clear at this time that he was changing his approach. He did sign better athletes, he just signed the wrong ones - guys who were selfish and/or unmotivated. This resulted in a last place finish and he overcorrected in the other direction - signing ultimate team players who were highly skilled, even at the expense of athleticism. We probably need to be somewhere in the middle. Fortunately, next years signing class seems to be hitting the mark in a way that we haven't seen in a long time.
You have some good points. There are some thoughts I disagree with though.
Not fair to say Vince didn't even try. Vince was over matched just like everyone on the team not 6'9" or bigger.
Isolations are hardly creative plays.
The offensive issues were the real problem and it was not scheme driven. They simply were bigger and/or faster at every position outside the 5. Once self extended the ball pressure forcing us off our marks the passing lanes became too long and the turnover parade ensued. Game over. Our team defeated superior athletes against ISU because we were smarter and better coached than they were.
We did not have the same advantage against Kansas and they were even better athletes than was ISU.
No scheme change on offense or defense was going to change the outcome last night.
It's not a "system" that you are seeing. It's the players he was able to recruit. You play a style driven by your personnels capabilities, not the other way around. Look at the baby boilers. That is what he wants to do and that is the personnel he is after. Look at the incoming class. Longer athletic players mixed with perimeter shooters. Do you think he would reject Kansas roster if he had a choice because he wants to be short and slow on the perimeter?
It IS a system that we are seeing. Just heard Jay Bilas on Mike and Mike talk about how Kansas used to run more of a traditional double post offense but this year Self switched to an offense that basically runs through 4 perimeter players. Bilas was talking about how this is a big change in system and how this could be Self's best team at KU because of that change in combination with great players.
This stupid argument happens every year. When we have athletes that can't shoot people clamor for "Butler" players that weren't even top 100 athletes but can dribble, pass, and shoot. Then we get those players and people freak out and say we need athletes again. The truth is you need athletes that can shoot, which is what Kansas has. Those are rare, and they're coveted 5 star players which we aren't going to get many of.
BIG TEN ALL-DEFENSIVE TEAM
Reggie Lynch, Minnesota
Vic Law, Northwestern
Dakota Mathias, Purdue
Ethan Happ, Wisconsin
Zak Showalter, Wisconsin
I think it's the Big Ten's biggest problem, with the exception of maybe Michigan.
Pretty much this. Self has three five stars on his current roster. Matt has had one in his tenure.
These are the NBA talents that will continue to go to blue blood schools. We can pull one occasionally, but not consistently. There aren't many of them, and so long as K/Pitino/Boeheim/Roy are coaching (and considering UK/KU), there are more blue bloods that are attractive to those guys than Purdue is.
He's coaching to the talent he has. Just like Painter is. I don't think we're running this post-based offense just because he woke up one morning and decided that's the type of offense he liked. It's certainly not what we ran in the Baby Boilers era. I think we run it because we had a stud post in AJ Hammons and then landed Haas and Swanigan to go along with him in recent years. With our strength in the post and our guard play focused on skill rather than athleticism, it seems like the smart move to me.
My point is that system or approach or whatever you wish to call it is driven by personnel just as Billas pointed out. The reason Painter is using traditional bigs is because that's who he was able to recruit over the years that built this lineup. Seven years ago he had a team with more athleticism and will again in a year or two. It should also be noted that Purdue did not lose last night because of their bigs. They lost due to being over matched at guard and forward positions. Do you want to beat one seeds? Have guards and wings who shoot as well or better than ours and also are explosive athletes who get to and finish at the rim against the best.
Changing what and who we get requires changing the culture.
I am going to keep a close eye and mind on the allegations and investigations after the season is over. It wouldn't surprise me at all to see these guys suddenly get court cases or other issues come up in the summer where they can sweep it under the rug. Sorry, but if the players at Purdue did what has been investigated, alleged, and proven factual....I would have emailed, called, and made it a point to get to see Bobinski to explain that I wouldn't care of the team went an entire season without a win...the young men need to be heavily punished or removed from the program. You don't get suspended TWICE in a season...once for a felony...and be allowed to still play.
But again, that's the Kentucky, UNC, Duke, Kansas, Lousiville, MSU style of doing things. Each of those coaches play the 'awww shucks, they are good kids' persona well...
This game had nothing to do with scheme as you said...it was all about talent. Some for some odd reason doesn't think Matt went after teh best players...which he did. Matt recruited the best that he could at the time and this team was highly successful in comparison to the talent levels other teams had. Had the game had a more skillful whistle, that would have helped Biggie last night. When Matt was ready to leave it was becasue he could see the recruiting issues and such. Purdue is much better than it was, but still doesn't have that athletic ball players the more powerful teams do. Eastern will be able to get to the rim next year...others should improve... adn true Purdue has recruited a better athlete next year and some skill, but it is still short of the high profile teams.
Hopefully, the China trip jump starts them. Purdue took a step forward this year...just has a few more steps it needs to take.
You forgot they all deserve a second chance even if it is their fourth arrest.
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You know that ultimately "we" in society have created a lot of monsters...
I think what most people are saying is look at Kansas. Their bigs did literally nothing in the game. The game has changed to a point where it is much better to have an athletic big who can pass and dribble and get to the rim...rather than bigs like Haas. I would much rather have a guy who is 6'10 and can run and jump and pass the ball from the post than a traditional post.
If by "we" you mean the NCAA and their thirst for money...I agree with you.
Purdue has to score in state 5 star athletes. If they go to IU or Kansas or Kentucky then they'll go to Purdue. They just have to recruit them harder. They need to get them and it has to happen far more in the future. I think far far too often Purdue coaches drop that ball. If Villanova and Xavier and Gonzaga can then you better believe Purdue can they just have to find them and do it.
I tend to agree with this. Wisconsin has had success running a more methodical offense than ours.
But Whisky has had better athletes than Purdue has had...that isn't hard to argue.
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