Offer Hazen Already Coach

[TC4THREE]

QUOTE="TwinDegrees2, post: 981762, member: 5118"]Math, let me ask you a serious question.....If Painter were at IU, Louisville, Michigan, or any of the SEC schools do you think he'd be a "better" coach. I like CMP and think he's done a very good job, though I don't like this year's early loss.

Nobody liked this year's early loss except A-LR. I ask us all to keep in perspective these kinds of disappointments. You cannot base a rational evaluation of a coach's performance on a single game. To do so shows an incredible misunderstanding of this game we all love. We love it because it is unpredictable. Every once in a while, the little guy wins. It happens to the best coaches, so let's not judge Painter on this year's NCAA results.

...and yes, Painter would be a good coach at any of those other places, and might have an easier time recruiting because, like it or not, most of those places are better venues and nicer cities than West Laffy.

[/QUOTE]

Louisville has some other benefits as well.

 

[cprh9u]

Well, if you really use the word "average" as it is defined, then if Painter is an "average coach", then we would average a 6th/7th place finish in the BIG and never make the NCAA's, right? Let's see, 350 D1 schools and only 68 make the field for the tournament. Average is finishing 175th, right? Yet, here we have a coach who regularly finishes in the top 20, in the country. Average? Naw, I don't think so. I think you are misusing the word "average".

I guess you can roll around in the mud of despair, but don't expect me to agree with you, or to join you in that bitter pit. I am very hopeful that we have the right coach for the job, and as his recruiting and game management skills continue to improve, we will acheive everything you and the rest of us want.

Average for a high major. Are you really comparing him to head coaches at Lipscomb and Stetson University? How about coaches in his pay range. How many coaches make what he makes, win 1 league title, never go beyond the S16 and stick around for over a decade. The answer is about 2-3 that I listed above, while others get fired or simply win more.

 

[cprh9u]

We don't play 11-year seasons. How about we compare just this year? That removes past issues that may or may not have been in Painter's direct control. This year we did finish second to MSU in the BIGT, by a couple points, and third to their second place in the BIG, with a harder schedule. We both exited from a first round game, beaten in an upset. That sounds like a draw to me.

HOF coach Izzo had an AA Point Guard who was Natioanl player of the year. (Remember how important guard play is to winning in the NCAAT, right?) We had a center who made the first team all-BIG team. Whoopee! Given this, I think Painter did pretty darned well.

Yes, brilliant. CMP and Izzo are so very similar in one season, so they should be regarded as the same. While we're at it, Bill Belichick and Bruce Arians both lost in their conference championships last year. They should be regarded the same as well. Nevermind all of the Super Bowls for Belichick or all of the Final Fours for Izzo. Your effort to justify Painter as anything more than an average high major coach is getting more and more desperate.

 

[TC4THREE]

What is equally brilliant is to fire him because he's not Coach K, Calipari, Bill Self, etc. Once again you have no answer for who we could target that will make us better. You are a professional complainer. All you know is that you don't like the results so you're going to change. Doesn't matter if the change makes us better or not, but you want change. Thankfully people of your brilliance don't run our athletic department.

 

[mathboy]

Louisville has some other benefits as well.

Hard to stack up wel the campus life when you have such unfair competition.

Yes, brilliant. CMP and Izzo are so very similar in one season, so they should be regarded as the same. While we're at it, Bill Belichick and Bruce Arians both lost in their conference championships last year. They should be regarded the same as well. Nevermind all of the Super Bowls for Belichick or all of the Final Fours for Izzo. Your effort to justify Painter as anything more than an average high major coach is getting more and more desperate.

Wow! I am surprized that you recognized my brilliance. Thanks!

As for Painter and Izzo, all I was pointing out was to judge a coach on a single game is of no value. You say to judge a coach on a single season is not valuable either. So why do you continue to harp on the NCAAT loss as a measure of Painter's capability? Do you see the irony? You want to use either his last game, or his entire 11 year career at Purdue. Neither is a correct measure.

You must look at trends, and currently the Purdue program is trending strongly upward. However, that does not fit your predisposed perspective on the coach. Too bad, but I think you are not seeing the whole picture.

I don't agree that Painter is a mediocre coach, wait... you qualified your statement, a mediocre coach of the high majors, wait... you might want to qualify that further, because I can pull that arguement apart too, but I just don't feel that is productive. Nobody want to read an arguement between posters that both really do support Purdue's athletics and want the best for the program. Let's just agree to disagree here and move on.

 

[TC4THREE]

Wow. Cprh9u is getting the crap kicked out of him in this thread!

 

[Dakota Girl]

Same with MSU.

And Purdues talent was not equall to MSU's, it was lesser, strengthening your point.

 

[Summy1]

I am not trying to argue with you but not sure how you can say that Painter is an above average coach? I like the guy but I am sure other coaches from the Big Ten could come in and do about the same job that he does.

 

[Summy1]

Average for a high major. Are you really comparing him to head coaches at Lipscomb and Stetson University? How about coaches in his pay range. How many coaches make what he makes, win 1 league title, never go beyond the S16 and stick around for over a decade. The answer is about 2-3 that I listed above, while others get fired or simply win more.

Painter makes over 2 million a year. He should get us to the tournament almost every year.

 

[cprh9u]

Hard to stack up wel the campus life when you have such unfair competition.

Wow! I am surprized that you recognized my brilliance. Thanks!

As for Painter and Izzo, all I was pointing out was to judge a coach on a single game is of no value. You say to judge a coach on a single season is not valuable either. So why do you continue to harp on the NCAAT loss as a measure of Painter's capability? Do you see the irony? You want to use either his last game, or his entire 11 year career at Purdue. Neither is a correct measure.

You must look at trends, and currently the Purdue program is trending strongly upward. However, that does not fit your predisposed perspective on the coach. Too bad, but I think you are not seeing the whole picture.

I don't agree that Painter is a mediocre coach, wait... you qualified your statement, a mediocre coach of the high majors, wait... you might want to qualify that further, because I can pull that arguement apart too, but I just don't feel that is productive. Nobody want to read an arguement between posters that both really do support Purdue's athletics and want the best for the program. Let's just agree to disagree here and move on.

"So why do you continue to harp on the NCAAT loss as a measure of Painter's capability? Do you see the irony? You want to use either his last game, or his entire 11 year career at Purdue"

What are you talking about? I have posted over and over about 1 CO-B1G championship and 2 sweet 16's in 11 years = average. Where do you see me "harp" on the last loss (although it certainly was embarrassing). Yes, MSU's loss was even more embarrassing this year, no doubt about it. But do any fans want Izzo gone like several do Painter here? I really doubt it since he has proven to be a great coach. Again, please tell me where I harp on 1 game vs. his full 11 years of average results.

 

[BBG]

I am not trying to argue with you but not sure how you can say that Painter is an above average coach? I like the guy but I am sure other coaches from the Big Ten could come in and do about the same job that he does.

He is above average because he has done above average things. Saying otherwise is just being blind a bit. Sorry.

 

[BBG]

Painter makes over 2 million a year. He should get us to the tournament almost every year.

Which I do believe is still not high in comparison.

 

[Summy1]

He is above average because he has done above average things. Saying otherwise is just being blind a bit. Sorry.

what has he done that other big schools haven't done?

 

[mathboy]

I am not trying to argue with you but not sure how you can say that Painter is an above average coach? I like the guy but I am sure other coaches from the Big Ten could come in and do about the same job that he does.

An average Division one coach would never make the NCAA tournament. Painter finished in the top 20. That is not average.

 

[mathboy]

Painter makes over 2 million a year. He should get us to the tournament almost every year.

$2 million? So he makes an average BIG salary, but finished third in the conference of 14 (average would be 7th, right?) and finished 2nd in the BIG Tournament (average is again, 7th). So what is so average about his performance.

 

[*4purdue*]

Mathias, PJ & Basil disagree. And the four star Stephens just left.

Mathias was listed as 4 stars by some. Basil redshirted and barely played his first 2 years. PJ played out of necessity.

 

[*4purdue*]

You gave a list of 7 or 8 coaches.....One question....what is there in West Lafayette/Purdue to bring someone you deem better to campus? I'm going to piss some off, but West Lafayette is not on anyone's destination list. It's the lack of facilities....the school needs a brand new state of the art arena and a state of the art brand new stadium. Sorry if that angers some, but that's my opinion for those blaming Painter. Hazell....is just not a very good coach.

Umm.. We just spent $120 million on Mackey. It is pretty much state of the art.. Facilities are better than IU's, Illinois and Michigans by a long shot and equal to Bresin Center. East Lansing was not exactly anyone's destination list either, nor was Madison and they seem to have done well.

 

[*4purdue*]

Math, let me ask you a serious question.....If Painter were at IU, Louisville, Michigan, or any of the SEC schools do you think he'd be a "better" coach. I like CMP and think he's done a very good job, though I don't like this year's early loss.

I don't think any of those schools would have hired him in the first place. Purdue wouldn't have either if he wasn't an alum.

 

[B-Westy]

cprh9u getting dumped on in this one.

 

[*4purdue*]

He is above average because he has done above average things. Saying otherwise is just being blind a bit. Sorry.

If you look at his numbers, I don't really think he's been above average. I posted the numbers a few months ago. Our average finish under CMP was around 5.4 under his tenure in what has mostly been a 11 team league under him. He may be slightly above average, but I would consider Keady above average. And like the post you were responding to, I think you could put most any average coach in his position and get the same results. Purdue did have a winning record against every B1G school when he took over and we have since lost that. We also had the most B1G titles and that has now been equaled. 1 regular season title in 11 years does not equal above average IMO. GK averaged 1 every 4.5 years and had 3 in his first 7 years.

 

[TC4THREE]

If you look at his numbers, I don't really think he's been above average. I posted the numbers a few months ago. Our average finish under CMP was around 5.4 under his tenure in what has mostly been a 11 team league under him. He may be slightly above average, but I would consider Keady above average. And like the post you were responding to, I think you could put most any average coach in his position and get the same results. Purdue did have a winning record against every B1G school when he took over and we have since lost that. We also had the most B1G titles and that has now been equaled. 1 regular season title in 11 years does not equal above average IMO. GK averaged 1 every 4.5 years and had 3 in his first 7 years.

It's not the 1980s anymore.

 

[tjreese]

If you look at his numbers, I don't really think he's been above average. I posted the numbers a few months ago. Our average finish under CMP was around 5.4 under his tenure in what has mostly been a 11 team league under him. He may be slightly above average, but I would consider Keady above average. And like the post you were responding to, I think you could put most any average coach in his position and get the same results. Purdue did have a winning record against every B1G school when he took over and we have since lost that. We also had the most B1G titles and that has now been equaled. 1 regular season title in 11 years does not equal above average IMO. GK averaged 1 every 4.5 years and had 3 in his first 7 years.

I'm trying to understand those that think Matt is either not very good or no better than average. What metrics are totally under Matt's control that you believe lead to the accumulation of the various wins and losses? I'm not sure what weight to give to the coach in recruiting. I know it is not weighted 100% in his ability, but also have no idea what that percent would be? Is his offensive structure over those years no good...his defensive structure over those years...his discipline over those years. What is is that he does or doesn't do that makes him somewhere between a poor coach as some suggest to an average coach...and this is not directed just to you. I'm just trying to gather the specifics that lie behind the opinions if not too much to type. I know things offensively and defensively I would like to see more of...but I can do that with any coach...

Or is it really none of that and just simply a measure of end results?

 

[Summy1]

yes they finished tied for 3rd this past year but a few years ago they were dead last in the Big Ten. I am looking at things overall. Yes, he usually gets Purdue to finish around 3rd in the Big Ten and gets them to the tournament but I think some folks are saying they want a coach that will win the Big Ten and get past the sweet sixteen sometimes.

 

[*4purdue*]

I'm trying to understand those that think Matt is either not very good or no better than average. What metrics are totally under Matt's control that you believe lead to the accumulation of the various wins and losses? I'm not sure what weight to give to the coach in recruiting. I know it is not weighted 100% in his ability, but also have no idea what that percent would be? Is his offensive structure over those years no good...his defensive structure over those years...his discipline over those years. What is is that he does or doesn't do that makes him somewhere between a poor coach as some suggest to an average coach...and this is not directed just to you. I'm just trying to gather the specifics that lie behind the opinions if not too much to type. I know things offensively and defensively I would like to see more of...but I can do that with any coach...

Or is it really none of that and just simply a measure of end results?

With me it's more the eye test. We can twist numbers all you want. I've watched Purdue basketball and college basketball for over 40 years. IMO, we have been average, or like I said, slightly above average under CMP. I never said he was a poor coach. I just think Purdue should be better than average. With 3 NBA caliber players on the front line, you should not finish 4th in the league and be a first round exit in the NCAAT. His entire 11 years have really been much the same as this season... Filled with more disappointment than exceeding expectations. He's not a poor coach, he's just not a great coach. His recruiting has been fine IMO, it's his game coaching that has been below average. Put them together and you have an average coach.

 

[*4purdue*]

It's not the 1980s anymore.

Tell that to Wisconsin, who has become a better program that we were even under GK. Are you really going to tell me that Wisconsin should be a better basketball program than Purdue? Because last I checked, they are.

 

[hamcoboiler]

Hazen off the board to Arkansas.

6'8" Indiana All Star with great athleticism just went to a high major when Purdue didn't offer while being four scholarships short. Outstanding work coach.

 

[*4purdue*]

Hazen off the board to Arkansas.

6'8" Indiana All Star with great athleticism just went to a high major when Purdue didn't offer while being four scholarships short. Outstanding work coach.

Hazen would not have seen the floor for us. Great kid, but ok player. Saving the scholly for 17 is the right move unless we can add a Swannigan or Haas type player last minute

 

[TC4THREE]

Tell that to Wisconsin, who has become a better program that we were even under GK. Are you really going to tell me that Wisconsin should be a better basketball program than Purdue? Because last I checked, they are.

I'm telling you that there are few barriers to anyone having a great program anymore. There is so much more parity than there was 30 years ago. Tell me. No way do we land Big Dog in today's college basketball world.

 

[BBG]

Hazen would not have seen the floor for us. Great kid, but ok player. Saving the scholly for 17 is the right move unless we can add a Swannigan or Haas type player last minute

Complely agree. This was a good one to NOT go after.

 

[New Pal Boiler]

Yawn. Seems like another John Hart or PJ late spring reach to me. Nothing against either of them, but I would rather sign as many grad transfers as we can and keep options open for 2017 and 2018 players.

 

[Do Dah Day]

Hazen off the board to Arkansas.

6'8" Indiana All Star with great athleticism just went to a high major when Purdue didn't offer while being four scholarships short. Outstanding work coach.

Actually, this was great work by the Coach .. although I suspect you were being facetious.

 

[cprh9u]

cprh9u getting dumped on in this one.

Must have been by a troll I ignore as I'm yet to see an intelligent reply/defense to what I am stating.

 

[B-Westy]

Must have been by a troll I ignore as I'm yet to see an intelligent reply/defense to what I am stating.

Just take the L & walk away from the keyboard.

 

[cprh9u]

$2 million? So he makes an average BIG salary, but finished third in the conference of 14 (average would be 7th, right?) and finished 2nd in the BIG Tournament (average is again, 7th). So what is so average about his performance.

As 4Purdue said:

"Our average finish under CMP was around 5.4 under his tenure in what has mostly been a 11 team league under him."

According to USA today CMP was the 4th highest paid coach last year in the B1G, at least among those that made the tourney. I assume Matta is ahead of him but guessing no one else who missed the tourney? Seems his pay is about equivalent to his average finish at 5.4. The 4 (assuming Matta) B1G coaches ahead of Painter all have final 4 appearance (or multiple) so hopefully he is next...

 

[cprh9u]

Umm.. We just spent $120 million on Mackey. It is pretty much state of the art.. Facilities are better than IU's, Illinois and Michigans by a long shot and equal to Bresin Center. East Lansing was not exactly anyone's destination list either, nor was Madison and they seem to have done well.

Don't use facts, they cants understanz u

 

[Dakota Girl]

Painter makes over 2 million a year. He should get us to the tournament almost every year.

He has

 

[JohnnyDoeBoiler]

Painter is currently the #17 highest rated paid coach in the country and the 4th highest in the B1G according to the NCAA tourney coaches for 2016. What Purdue is getting is exactly what they are paying for. Not sure how that can't be defined as anything more than average.

I am not going to compare every coach in college to what SHOULD happen at Purdue because to compare the coach at a place like Farleigh Dickinson is ridiculous. Farleigh could win 25 games and not win their conference tourney and be left out without a thought. If Purdue wins 25 games and they don't win the BTN, they are a lock. There is also no chance Farleigh Dickinson is getting players of the caliber of Swanigan, Haas, Edwards, or even Mathias and Cline.

According to his pay scale, Painter is doing exactly what is expected of him. An average coach with an average pay amount for P5 and other high level program coaches make. The issue is that you can only be average for so long before fans either expect more of you (this past season) or they lose interest. The problem right now is that fans are trying to decide if CMP will ever be able to get out of that puddle of mediocrity or if what happened last season is the standard...lots of regular season wins and an early exit from the NCAAT. I happen to think CMP needs to prove this season that he can take the talent he has and overachieve a bit and springboard that to a strong recruiting class for 2017 (top 20 class is what I would like to see). If that happens, by all means he deserves an extension. If the team fails to achieve something other than a top 5 finish in the conference and a first weekend exit in the tourney, that is probably what CMP can deliver throughout his career.

Also, I can name a number of different coaches that would jump immediately at the chance to coach at a place like Purdue who has top flight facilities for basketball in place and a solid tradition to build upon.
1. Cuonzo Martin
2. Cameron Dollar (Seattle University)
3. Steve Masiello (Manhattan)
4. Jack Murphy (Northern Arizona)
5. Dan Muller (Illinois State)

Obviously Martin and Murphy a little more proven than the others but I would be excited about all of these hires. Young coaches who, given the chance, would give Purdue roughly the same results as CMP has. I don't really get the argument that it can get much worse than CMP, but what he has given up to this point is very average with two really bad seasons. After 11 years, you kind of see what you are going to get with CMP so why not see what you could get with someone else that would probably return, at worst what CMP is already giving you...but you may just end up with a young coach who fits well in with what Purdue can offer and becomes a program that is competing every year for B1G titles and Sweet 16's...which would be an improvement from what CMP is giving the program now. The idea of it can get worse is just a silly argument as it is just as likely to be that much better as well...but more than likely would be just about the same. I'd be willing to give another coach 8-12 years to show he can get more if he is giving about the same results as Painter.

 

[purdue4sure]

Painter is currently the #17 highest rated paid coach in the country and the 4th highest in the B1G according to the NCAA tourney coaches for 2016. What Purdue is getting is exactly what they are paying for. Not sure how that can't be defined as anything more than average.

I am not going to compare every coach in college to what SHOULD happen at Purdue because to compare the coach at a place like Farleigh Dickinson is ridiculous. Farleigh could win 25 games and not win their conference tourney and be left out without a thought. If Purdue wins 25 games and they don't win the BTN, they are a lock. There is also no chance Farleigh Dickinson is getting players of the caliber of Swanigan, Haas, Edwards, or even Mathias and Cline.

According to his pay scale, Painter is doing exactly what is expected of him. An average coach with an average pay amount for P5 and other high level program coaches make. The issue is that you can only be average for so long before fans either expect more of you (this past season) or they lose interest. The problem right now is that fans are trying to decide if CMP will ever be able to get out of that puddle of mediocrity or if what happened last season is the standard...lots of regular season wins and an early exit from the NCAAT. I happen to think CMP needs to prove this season that he can take the talent he has and overachieve a bit and springboard that to a strong recruiting class for 2017 (top 20 class is what I would like to see). If that happens, by all means he deserves an extension. If the team fails to achieve something other than a top 5 finish in the conference and a first weekend exit in the tourney, that is probably what CMP can deliver throughout his career.

Also, I can name a number of different coaches that would jump immediately at the chance to coach at a place like Purdue who has top flight facilities for basketball in place and a solid tradition to build upon.
1. Cuonzo Martin
2. Cameron Dollar (Seattle University)
3. Steve Masiello (Manhattan)
4. Jack Murphy (Northern Arizona)
5. Dan Muller (Illinois State)

Obviously Martin and Murphy a little more proven than the others but I would be excited about all of these hires. Young coaches who, given the chance, would give Purdue roughly the same results as CMP has. I don't really get the argument that it can get much worse than CMP, but what he has given up to this point is very average with two really bad seasons. After 11 years, you kind of see what you are going to get with CMP so why not see what you could get with someone else that would probably return, at worst what CMP is already giving you...but you may just end up with a young coach who fits well in with what Purdue can offer and becomes a program that is competing every year for B1G titles and Sweet 16's...which would be an improvement from what CMP is giving the program now.

I don't agree with everything that you wrote, but you put a lot more thought into this post than the standard "Fire Painter!" rants.

 

[TC4THREE]

Just take the L & walk away from the keyboard.

It's becoming almost painful to watch in a very fun sort of way. Kind of like a Jackass movie.

 

[JohnnyDoeBoiler]

I don't agree with everything that you wrote, but you put a lot more thought into this post than the standard "Fire Painter!" rants.

Thank you. After the LR loss I was definitely in the fire Painter group but I let myself cool a bit and figured he should be given time to show that what he has given can be bettered. I didn't call for him to be fired right now but over the next season or two along with a very important recruiting class (and a new AD), if CMP can't seem to get a bit over the hump then maybe it is in the best interest of the program to change directions with a new coach.