Morton Redshirt

[Purdue2018]

I don't think you are reading what people are saying and you haven't seemed to follow Painter's recruiting. He does not look at the stars next to a player's name. Period. He offered Kaufman before he was rated. That is how he does it. He gets in on kids he thinks are good before anyone else sees them. Some never reach high rankings. In one post, you disqualify Ivey from being an impact player (because of 75-150 FINAL ranking), then in another post you talk about his ranking as if he is a borderline 5-star because he rose to 79. And understand that you are trying to compare his jump as a senior with Loyer's jump as a junior to the 75-150 ranking, and you act like it is Loyer's FINAL ranking.

You are making quite the stretch with your theories. CMP doesn’t care about rankings when recruiting players. He recruits players he thinks will be good and fit his system. However, final rankings are a good indicator of how good a player will be in college.

If you get a 5* or even highly rated 4* player, you should expect an instant impact player. Those ranked in the 50-150 range should be expected to be contributors right away with large impact coming after they have been in the program for a few years. Those outside the 150 range shouldn’t be expected to have a significant impact until they are upperclassmen. Are there outliers? Of course.

No, I don’t expect Loyers ranking to rise or fall much from where it currently is. That could absolutely change between now and when the final rankings come out. I would expect Loyer to show some flashes as a Freshman, but ultimately just be more of a role player as a Freshman.

 

[Hail Purdue]

We must have been watching different games. IT got abused on D

You better get hold of Painter and let him know that he doesn’t know who should be playing.

 

[Smokestack91]

I think Morton will be one of those players that come senior day we are wondering how in the world we are going to replace. Coach Painter is still very high on him as said during the Hummel/Goodman podcast.

 

[TwinDegrees2]

I think Morton will be one of those players that come senior day we are wondering how in the world we are going to replace. Coach Painter is still very high on him as said during the Hummel/Goodman podcast.

Totally agree. Kid is going to shine.

 

[*4purdue*]

Totally agree. Kid is going to shine.

Everyone forgets he missed a month with mono.

 

[Purdue85]

Everyone forgets he missed a month with mono.

(*scoffing sounds and derisive laughter*) .... "excuses!"

 

[Emartin70287]

NO PROBLEM !!! what you fail to realize in redshirting is very seldom does that player have a 5th year that is any better than his 3rd, 4th or 2nd year. and if the guy is a great player, he's going to leave after 2-3 years, BIG DOG basically redshirted a year because of academics. Did he stick around for 5 years? NO. Cline could have stayed another year . Did he? NO ! Show me a player who was greater in his 5th year than in his 4th.

I'm not saying a player won't develop. What I'm saying is players like Newman and Gillis would be just as good this year if they had played sparingly last year. Red shirting last year didn't really make a difference in their elevating their game. the y would have elevated it anyway. Would IT be better if he had redshirted? I doubt it seriously. And if he had, would we want 6 years of IT ? I doubt that too.

so rather than redshirting, I say say let the guy play. if he's great, he's not going to stay 5 years anyway. and if he's not, that 5th year isn't going to make a difference.

I'll ask again. Show me a player who became a star their 5th year as a result of red shirting.! and to me redshirting because of injuries are different than the normal redshirting because of lack of playing time.

Players have proven that lack of playing time is a total myth for redshirting. if the player is good enough, they will play as a freshman and possibly even start.

Can you say furst and kaufman will be even better if the y redshirt their first year? Give me a break. Players redshirt for two reasons: injuries or they are not ready for prime time.

Sure Sasha redshirted. Is he any better today than he would have been if he didn't redshirt? The ? about Sasha , is do yo u really expect him to take his game to another level in the next two years? I don't. I expect his level will be the same as it is this year. Dow redshirted. is he any better today than he would have been if he didn't redshirt?

On the other side of the coin, neither It or hunter redshirted. Would they be any better today if they had redshirted? i doubt it. Will either player use COVID to play another year? i doubt it.

Sure, you could probably find one example. But the reality is a player who redshirts or not is going to benefit from a year of painter's teaching and practices. and a player who doesn't redshirt might not play a lot.

two last examples - Gillis and Wheeler. Is Gillis better than Wheeler because he redshirted last year? No. is Gillis likely to be a starter for purdue his 5th year ? Also no. I would be very disappointed if Gillis started over furst or kaufman next year.

So tell me again what's the point or advantage of redshirting? that you the fan get to see your favorite player play one more year?

Bruce Parkinson redshirted due to an injury. the team moved on and was better without him. but he came back to play that 5th year. the coach felt obligated to play him. Kyle Macy decided to leave. the team was not as good and bruce did not come close to his previous accomplishments. We would have been better off if bruce hadn't redshirted.

Mike Needham was another example. he was a 6'8 forward in the 70's. he didn't play much his freshman year, but he didn't redshirt. he didn't get any better, but he had spirit. He didn't play a game his entire senior year. the coach asked him prior to the last game if he'd like to redshirt. he said NO. ad he played a couple of minutes in the last game, earned his engineering degree and moved on.

Great players like TRE, and Biggie and Vince and all the rest don't need to red shirt. and players that do redshirt

Haarms is another great example to prove my point. he enrolled early redshirted his first year at purdue. technically, he could have played. but he elected to redshirt. So now look at him. he was given an extra year to become the star he hoped he'd be. is he any better this year than he was last year? is playing that extra year in college going to pay off for his pro dreams? No. he's going to go back and play Euro basketball. he could have left and done that last year rather than staying in college.

Eastern is the same way. another year in college isn't going to make him any better. Would Eastern have been better if he had redshirted? All we'd have is just another year of his mama's posts.


I'm sorry, i don't see the benefits of redshirting. i do see the benefits of playing for and learning from painter. But a player should be able to do that normally. and not need 5 years before they reach their prime. look at carsen. Would he have been better if he redshirted?

as for playing time, sitting out a year isn't going to guarantee greater playing time in the future. Painter is going to bring in elite athletes every year. he's got two great big men coming in next year and 2 grea t guards coming in the following year. if a player redshirts thinking he'll get more minutes down the road because the competition will be easier, he is sadly mistaken. the competition for minutes down the road is going to get even harder.

You fail to understand sarcasm. Good lord you are daft.

 

[BoilerAndy]

You are making quite the stretch with your theories. CMP doesn’t care about rankings when recruiting players. He recruits players he thinks will be good and fit his system. However, final rankings are a good indicator of how good a player will be in college.

If you get a 5* or even highly rated 4* player, you should expect an instant impact player. Those ranked in the 50-150 range should be expected to be contributors right away with large impact coming after they have been in the program for a few years. Those outside the 150 range shouldn’t be expected to have a significant impact until they are upperclassmen. Are there outliers? Of course.

No, I don’t expect Loyers ranking to rise or fall much from where it currently is. That could absolutely change between now and when the final rankings come out. I would expect Loyer to show some flashes as a Freshman, but ultimately just be more of a role player as a Freshman.

You have totally changed your arguments, but don't seem to know it. Makes it difficult to carry on a conversation, so...

 

[Purdue2018]

You have totally changed your arguments, but don't seem to know it. Makes it difficult to carry on a conversation, so...

I haven’t changed the argument at all. Final recruiting rankings matter. They are a good indicator of what to expect from a recruit in college. That’s been my stance this whole conversation.

 

[buffboiler]

Morton was a 4 star top 100 player. 88th according to Rivals. He had like 20 offers from some major programs. I think he will come around and start playing to his potential. I also think he will work hard to get more minutes in the future.

Recalling how long of effect this mono had on Mathias in his Frosh year,
I would suspect that it will be a while he can showcase his abilities in full.
Morton's progress will be like extra for this team.

Let it sprinkle, Morton!
Be the Morton Man for the boilers!!

Boiler Up!!

 

[purduedavie]

IT’s minutes. You saw what happens last night when teams go at him. He got backed down last night like a junior high kid. IT and Wheeler will be off men out in a 10 man rotation next year.

IT is useful, however, he can't be overplayed vs top teams that have long guards, a team like Baylor would eat him alive. I would think that Morton can easily take Thompson's minutes next year, at the same time I can see Thompson winning a game or two with some streak shooting. I've said this before, I hope all players return, however, I'm guessing Dow probably hangs em up and Wheeler moves on looking to gain more minutes at a smaller school like a Indiana State or Valpo. Both should be welcomed back though, one never knows, Wheeler could surprise next year and play more minutes than we think.

 

[tjreese]

I believe Morton will end up viewed as a special player when it is all said and done. Playing the point in PU's system is not easy and especially not easy for a freshman coming in late due to illness. Just like last nigh, Morton hit two players in the hands with passes they could not handle. One was Edey right under the basket. The game will slow down for him. When it does he will shine. He is getting better everyday, but so is everyone else.

Ethan will be fine. That said, he starred down Tre and lost a lob early and the pass to Edey was a poor decision due to Edey. That velocity on a guy that big in traffic a bit was not a good decision. Had it been Tre and his hands, it might have been fine. Knowing there are different strokes for different folks is good to know, and will happen over time for Ethan. I can't recall the other pass you referenced, but Ethan did make one that was almost a touch pass to someone cutting baseline around the lane I seem to recall...maybe that was it?

 

[Level 42]

They are a good indicator of what to expect from a recruit in college.

Not really. Look at what happens to some lower ranked players after they come to Purdue and become stars.

The ranking system is inherently flawed and other than ranking players that are obvious 5 stars or a 1 star, it generally is a system filled with inaccuracies.

 

[Level 42]

You better get hold of Painter and let him know that he doesn’t know who should be playing.

I would really love to see some on here do just that. The verbal abuse they would get in return from someone that actually knows what he is talking about would be a sight to behold.

 

[Purdue2018]

Not really. Look at what happens to some lower ranked players after they come to Purdue and become stars.

The ranking system is inherently flawed and other than ranking players that are obvious 5 stars or a 1 star, it generally is a system filled with inaccuracies.

As I stated, there are outliers that play above and below their rankings. Generally they are pretty good though. We’ve had low ranked players who don’t pan out. We have had few if any low ranked players that are day 1 impact players.

 

[purduepat1969]

Not really. Look at what happens to some lower ranked players after they come to Purdue and become stars.

The ranking system is inherently flawed and other than ranking players that are obvious 5 stars or a 1 star, it generally is a system filled with inaccuracies.

Not really. Painter does a great job in developing lower ranked high school players into very good college players. Nothing wrong with that at all. But there's a reason why so many 4 and 5 stars leave Duke, KY, and NC and become solid NBA players, while that doesn't happen at Purdue very often.

 

[Level 42]

Not really. Painter does a great job in developing lower ranked high school players into very good college players. Nothing wrong with that at all. But there's a reason why so many 4 and 5 stars leave Duke, KY, and NC and become solid NBA players, while that doesn't happen at Purdue very often.

Well yeah really. Your post essentially proves my point. Painter has a solid streak of putting people in the NBA and quite a few with long careers no less. As I said, the rankings get the very obvious correct, but are often off or misleading on others. CE is a perfect example of that, so is Gillis to an extent because of injury.

But we can just agree to disagree.

 

[boilernuke]

Recalling how long of effect this mono had on Mathias in his Frosh year,
I would suspect that it will be a while he can showcase his abilities in full.
Morton's progress will be like extra for this team.

Let it sprinkle, Morton!
Be the Morton Man for the boilers!!

Boiler Up!!

Agree with this. Of the athletes that I know that had mono, they were functional a couple of months after contracting it, but all had lingering effects up to a year later. This may be the case with Ethan and since this is a "free" eligibility year, Painter probably figures he might as well give Ethan some doses of real games that will pay dividends next year.

 

[SIBoiler2]

I keep seeing predictions that Wheeler will/should transfer elsewhere for more minutes. Every team has guys that are happy to just be part of the team especially a happy, winning team. He seems engaged with his teammates at all times. I'm sure at this point he knows what he is and isn't going to be as a basketball player. He should be very close to a degree. A year ago with Nojel and Treed in his ear all the time I'm sure he was uncertain but with the removal of that constant negativity his life is likely more pleasant. I'd not be surprised to see him here for one more year and be happy to contribute whatever he could.

 

[Purdue2018]

Well yeah really. Your post essentially proves my point. Painter has a solid streak of putting people in the NBA and quite a few with long careers no less. As I said, the rankings get the very obvious correct, but are often off or misleading on others. CE is a perfect example of that, so is Gillis to an extent because of injury.

How is Gillis’ ranking indicative of your point? His first year at Purdue he redshirted because he wasn’t ready. His second year he is a role player averaging 5 points and 4 rebounds. That’s exactly what I would expect out of a player ranked around 200. You don’t get many stars ranked below 150.

BTW, you use Gillis to make your point, but completely ignore Dow. Ranked in the same area as Gillis and has never seen a significant minute in his career.

 

[Level 42]

BTW, you use Gillis to make your point, but completely ignore Dow. Ranked in the same area as Gillis and has never seen a significant minute in his career.

Actually dow helps prove my point that rankings are inaccurate as well. Ranked but not playing, so thanks for adding that.

 

[*Shockerrr*]

At least he’s a better shooter than Eastern lol

 

[Purdue2018]

Actually dow helps prove my point as well. Ranked but not playing, so thanks for adding that.

Dow does not make your point. Low ranked players are a crapshoot.

Every player is “ranked” in basketball, btw. Dow was ranked 203. Anything over 150 is likely not to have much of an impact and definitely not early.

 

[KingofJersey]

At least he’s better shooter than Eastern lol

He has more career 3 pointers already

 

[Level 42]

Dow does not make your point. Low ranked players are a crapshoot.

He does make my point, you're just missing it. But okay, not going to go back and forth because it's a waste of time.

 

[Purdue2018]

He does make my point, you're just missing it. But okay, not going to go back and forth because it's a waste of time.

Agreed on that.

 

[New Pal Boiler]

Not really. Look at what happens to some lower ranked players after they come to Purdue and become stars.

The ranking system is inherently flawed and other than ranking players that are obvious 5 stars or a 1 star, it generally is a system filled with inaccuracies.

Almost all of CMPs All B1G/NBA types were at least top 100 guys. Vince and Dakota are the 2 notable exceptions that I can think of.

 

[Mandeville LA]

Ethan will be fine. That said, he starred down Tre and lost a lob early and the pass to Edey was a poor decision due to Edey. That velocity on a guy that big in traffic a bit was not a good decision. Had it been Tre and his hands, it might have been fine. Knowing there are different strokes for different folks is good to know, and will happen over time for Ethan. I can't recall the other pass you referenced, but Ethan did make one that was almost a touch pass to someone cutting baseline around the lane I seem to recall...maybe that was it?

I cannot remember ether but there was another slick pass that someone was not ready for. Anyway, I don't know what Ethan will end up doing at PU. Most of what I have seen of him was in the 3v3 format when he played with USA basketball. Confident, smooth, under control and seemed to be the guy who was always in the right place. High IQ player with really good on ball skills.

 

[purduepat1969]

Well yeah really. Your post essentially proves my point. Painter has a solid streak of putting people in the NBA and quite a few with long careers no less. As I said, the rankings get the very obvious correct, but are often off or misleading on others. CE is a perfect example of that, so is Gillis to an extent because of injury.

But we can just agree to disagree.

Solid streak? Uhm, no. CE is a once in a career recruiting windfall. And he hasn't yet established a sustained NBA career. Vince Edwards is playing in the G league. Biggie is not playing. Mathias went undrafted. Etwaun is the only player coached by Painter that's had sustained success in the NBA. Who are the "other few" with long careers?

Talent, which is what the rankings are based on, does not take into account player development in college. I've said that Painter takes lower ranked players and makes them good college players. But that's about as far as they get unless they have the talent base to make it to the NBA.

 

[TwinDegrees2]

Everyone forgets he missed a month with mono.

And Mono lingers....

 

[Purdue Grad in Texas]

Solid streak? Uhm, no. CE is a once in a career recruiting windfall. And he hasn't yet established a sustained NBA career. Vince Edwards is playing in the G league. Biggie is not playing. Mathias went undrafted. Etwaun is the only player coached by Painter that's had sustained success in the NBA. Who are the "other few" with long careers?

Talent, which is what the rankings are based on, does not take into account player development in college. I've said that Painter takes lower ranked players and makes them good college players. But that's about as far as they get unless they have the talent base to make it to the NBA.

Carl Landry.

 

[PUQBMan.]

Talent, which is what the rankings are based on, does not take into account player development in college. I've said that Painter takes lower ranked players and makes them good college players. But that's about as far as they get unless they have the talent base to make it to the NBA.

I agree with your point about Painter developing lower ranked players into good college players. One point though, I believe Rivals or 247 came out and said that player development is actually taken into consideration when ranking players. That’s why you see a bump in players that commit to Alabama in football for example, because they are going to get better coaching than they would at a different school.

 

[tjreese]

I agree with your point about Painter developing lower ranked players into good college players. One point though, I believe Rivals or 247 came out and said that player development is actually taken into consideration when ranking players. That’s why you see a bump in players that commit to Alabama in football for example, because they are going to get better coaching than they would at a different school.

This is very interesting and I certainly don't know anything to disagree with your comment on "Rivals or 247 came out and said that player development is actually taken into consideration when ranking players". That said, I question (rhetorical) how do they weigh or adjust a player going to one school over another? How do they know the motivation of each player since that too should be known of the effectiveness of reaching that player from different coaches? Those of us with more than one child know that in the most similar environment possible there will be a difference in "outcomes".

Still, I know from a few decades ago (1982???) an instructor I had (Robert McLean from the University of Tenn.) was doing some initial work with Bill Sanders on what would later be known as TVAAS (Tennessee Value-Added Assessment System). This was a statistical approach to "student gain" rather than a finishing data point to determine how much students gained from different teachers...an academic approach to what you are suggesting as a more physical approach and so I see some similarity, but in different domains.

FWIW, their early studies basically showed what some people already knew as to who were the better teachers, but more direct to what you write...different students had different gains primarily due to their "potential". Some students would always gain more than a year and other students would not gain a year.

 

[purduepat1969]

Carl Landry.

Landry was a junior college transfer under Keady. He played for Painter. But he wasn't recruited by Painter.

 

[SCBoiler1]

Well yeah really. Your post essentially proves my point. Painter has a solid streak of putting people in the NBA and quite a few with long careers no less. As I said, the rankings get the very obvious correct, but are often off or misleading on others. CE is a perfect example of that, so is Gillis to an extent because of injury.

But we can just agree to disagree.

Dirty little secret. Don't tell our recruits this but Painter isn't in the business of developing NBA players. If he is, he's failing miserably. There are only two guys who Painter has put in the NBA that had "long careers" in 16 years. Moore and Laundry, that's it. Only Moore and Edwards are still in the league.

Don't get me wrong, I think Painter is a great coach. It amazes me what he does with the talent he has. He teaches guys to play well within the Purdue system. Because Purdue is so successful our guys get notoriety and win awards in college but the vast majority of the guys that Painter recruits will never play in the NBA no matter were they go to college.

Kentucky currently has 31 guys playing in the NBA. Are they there because they are "developed" by Calapari? I would ay no. They are there because they were great players before they came to Kentucky and they were great players one or two years later when they left.

 

[DrEss]

Good thread. My opinion on high school rankings are, they are more of an indicator to potential Pro success than college success. The top 5 in the rankings, which typically make the lottery (less injuries) are usually the only locks for a 2nd contract in the NBA. After that, it is a crap shoot, with a low percentage of NBA significant success. There are so many different styles of play and coaching philosophies in the college game, from which mid to lower ranked players can exceed expectations in college with the right school fit, and conversely, others appear to slip by choosing the wrong school. We have seen so many examples of both over the years. For the highest ranked players not drafted by Kentucky, Duke and North Carolina, you better choose the right school and coach that best fits your game and realistic professional playing dreams, and probably most importantly, life after aspirations.

 

[SCBoiler1]

I keep seeing predictions that Wheeler will/should transfer elsewhere for more minutes. Every team has guys that are happy to just be part of the team especially a happy, winning team. He seems engaged with his teammates at all times. I'm sure at this point he knows what he is and isn't going to be as a basketball player. He should be very close to a degree. A year ago with Nojel and Treed in his ear all the time I'm sure he was uncertain but with the removal of that constant negativity his life is likely more pleasant. I'd not be surprised to see him here for one more year and be happy to contribute whatever he could.

As Purdue fan, I could care less who the 11th, 12th or 13th guy on the team is. If its better for him personally to stay. good for him. If he wants to move on and try and play somewhere else that's fine.

The only concern I would have is that its really hard for someone who is accustomed to playing, to sit on the bench and watch, I don't care who you are. There are very few athletes who can accept a diminished role. I know that's not how we would like it to be, but IMO that's the way it is.

 

[DrEss]

As Purdue fan, I could care less who the 11th, 12th or 13th guy on the team is. If its better for him personally to stay. good for him. If he wants to move on and try and play somewhere else that's fine.

The only concern I would have is that its really hard for someone who is accustomed to playing, to sit on the bench and watch, I don't care who you are. There are very few athletes who can accept a diminished role. I know that's not how we would like it to be, but IMO that's the way it is.

Sooner or later, everyone should come to terms that they have reached their ceiling. Many will blame others about it, but, in most cases, it is most significantly based on their abilities of skill but also to listen and learn, no matter what career you are in. It’s what you make of that realization of reaching your ceiling, that ultimately defines you.

 

[ImRonBurgandy?]

Good discussion. Couple of points:

1. I think Painter has done a fantastic job at developing players. Yes, they may not have sustained NBA careers, but getting them to develop into a pro player (nba and overseas) can't be overlooked IMO.

2. The sustained pro success isn't up to Painter

 

[BoilerDeac]

IT is useful, however, he can't be overplayed vs top teams that have long guards, a team like Baylor would eat him alive. I would think that Morton can easily take Thompson's minutes next year, at the same time I can see Thompson winning a game or two with some streak shooting. I've said this before, I hope all players return, however, I'm guessing Dow probably hangs em up and Wheeler moves on looking to gain more minutes at a smaller school like a Indiana State or Valpo. Both should be welcomed back though, one never knows, Wheeler could surprise next year and play more minutes than we think.

Part of me thinks Wheeler might just stick around at Purdue. He likes his teammates, and not like he’s going to play pro. Why not just stay?