In your eyes, what would be "meaningful" for Biden to do that would make you happy? I.e. if you were a world leader in an incredibly complicated situation in an incredibly interlaced world, what would you do? I don't think the "Russian War machine" under Putin really cares. When cornered, I see them lashing out with even more destruction, not less. Until Putin gets taken out... best case scenario.
If Sweden and Finland join NATO, Russia will literally go nuclear
- Thread starter YouSayPotato
- Start date
Honest to God, what is wrong with you? Go back and re-read what I said in the posts above. I did not say that the US should dictate to anyone nor did I say that "we tell them what they can't do." All of that is a fabrication within your head.
The issue is Finland and Sweden joining NATO. I didn't say the US should block their membership if they opt to apply. I'm certain we wouldn't block it. What I said was that same thing that the Prime Ministers of both Finland and Sweden said. It is also the same thing that Putin said. If Finland and Sweden join NATO at this time, it further destabilizes the continent.
You need to brush up on the history of WWII. Hitler didn't have 6,000 nuclear warheads. If he did, WWII would have been had a vastly different outcome.
Send Ukraine planes, you know, those MIG29 fighters that he refused to send in fear of "escalation". He waited until weeks after the invasion to personally sanction Putin. Even though Congress approved MI-17 helicopters for Ukraine as part of the latest aid package, Biden decided against them.
There are thousands of civilians being murdered in Ukraine. Biden is the leader of the free world. He needs to act like it and not continue to let Germany dither without calling them out. And if Germany and the EU is going to continue to dither, it's eventually going to be a security threat to the US. Take a leadership position and force some will upon those who won't lead.
Strains in German coalition as junior partners turn on Scholz over Ukraine
(Reuters) -Frustration is growing among German Chancellor Olaf Scholz's junior coalition partners over what they say are shortcomings in his leadership on Ukraine, an internal rift that risks undermining Western unity against Russia. After a dramatic policy pivot at the start of the crisis...
Hitler had the most powerful army in the world at that time. There was clear and present fear of Germany. And history repeats itself.
BTW, we have 5,000 nukes pointed at Russia. Shouldn't they also be concerned...
Your analogy with WWII is not appropriate for the current situation. You could just as easily compare it to the Civil War. There is no scenario in which the NATO forces are going to invade Russia and totally defeat the enemy. That's what happened to Germany in WWII.
If Russia launches a missile with a tactical nuclear warhead at a target inside Ukraine, will the US retaliate with nuclear weapons? If not, what should our response be? What if they launched a chemical attack? What should we do?
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Every action has a reaction. Every decision is not black and white. If we sent MIG29's and things escalated even further, and even more people died, would you blame Biden for that action? I agree, this is a disaster on all fronts and its all on Putin. I truly wish someone internal would take the POS out (like Lindsey Graham suggested). It's easy to say what "should" be done when you are not the one who has to deal with the worldwide ramifications. Seems like just a few years ago, many in this country were all about "nationalism" and just taking care of this country, forget the EU and NATO, etc. Now suddenly, we need to be doing more. We obviously clearly agree, as ANYONE in this country should (instead of fawning on Putin and calling him "tough"), that what is going on in Ukraine is a tragedy. I just don't think the solution is so clear.Send Ukraine planes, you know, those MIG29 fighters that he refused to send in fear of "escalation". He waited until weeks after the invasion to personally sanction Putin. Even though Congress approved MI-17 helicopters for Ukraine as part of the latest aid package, Biden decided against them.
There are thousands of civilians being murdered in Ukraine. Biden is the leader of the free world. He needs to act like it and not continue to let Germany dither without calling them out. And if Germany and the EU is going to continue to dither, it's eventually going to be a security threat to the US. Take a leadership position and force some will upon those who won't lead.
Strains in German coalition as junior partners turn on Scholz over Ukraine
(Reuters) -Frustration is growing among German Chancellor Olaf Scholz's junior coalition partners over what they say are shortcomings in his leadership on Ukraine, an internal rift that risks undermining Western unity against Russia. After a dramatic policy pivot at the start of the crisis...news.yahoo.com
It should be mind boggling to you and all the others who voted Biden the huge mistake you all made.
If Russia uses tactical weapons inside of Russia, the gloves will come off. There is absolutely no way the world can stand by and watch that without some sort of military reaction. Same goes for a chemical attack, although killing people is killing people, regardless of the method.
What you don't seem to understand is that Putin is behaving EXACTLY like Hitler did at the beginning of the war. Nuclear weapons don't change the behavior. Appeasement isn't going to change the behavior. What do nuclear weapons have to do with it? Would you have the world give in to every demand because he has nuclear weapons? Is that what we should do with North Korea as well?
If it escalated even further? How much further does it need to escalate. We're sending anti-tank weapons, but then aircraft is a bridge too far? It's just dumb decision making.
And as far as fawning over Putin. What does that have to do with anything right now?
My stance a few years ago was to hold the EU accountable for their behavior, specifically Germany. They wanted the best of both worlds: 1) Cheap energy from Russia 2) US protection without any spending toward it. They reaped the benefits of it with a strong economy. Now they're shocked at what happened when appeasement with Russia didn't work. And already the dead bodies mean nothing to them. They're the worst of the worst in this world, in that they're complicit in funding Russia's war machine. But they're backing away from supporting Ukraine. It's disgusting...
I assume you mean "If Russia uses tactical nuclear weapons inside of Ukraine, the gloves will come off." OK, please elaborate. Instead of saying that the gloves will come off, what will happen? Will the US attack Russia with nuclear weapons? Will NATO attack Russia with nuclear weapons?
Let's face it, neither of those things are going to happen.
Sorry, my mistake on the Russia part. I meant Ukraine.
No, I think a better response would be a conventional attack on Russian capabilities in the Ukraine. Possibly airstrikes and a no-fly zone.
We didn't do anything about it in Syria, so how will this be different?
This is what you said in your first reply in the thread.
"I say we should wait until Russia has a new leader before we allow them to join NATO."
Wtf am I and others here missing?
It's not up to the leaders of Finland and Sweden to decide if they are accepted into NATO. All they do is make the request. After that it's up to the NATO members, including the US.
Are you saying the two countries should choose not to apply so as to not piss off Russia......or it's ok for them to apply and NATO should deny them so as to not piss off Russia? It's seems as though you're being deliberately vague.
Your statement above clearly states it's on us to to deny them membership. That means we are limiting their options to defend themselves.
If LePen wins the presidency in France she will oppose those countries memberships. She also wants to move away from the EU dictates and NATO's.
The leaders of both Finland and Sweden have themselves publicly declared that this is NOT the time to join NATO because it will destabilize the region. Then public opinion polls in both countries changed from overwhelmingly “No” to slight majority “Yes”.
The wise thing for both countries to do, and what I think will happen, is for both of them to drag their feet for months before applying. Hold a referendum. Let the people vote. Do an internal analysis of military preparedness. And then, after the Ukraine situation cools down, submit the applications.
Through diplomacy and behind closed doors, the US should advise both nations to take this course of action. They haven’t been in a hurry to join NATO for 70+ years and now they can wait a few months longer.
What are you talking about? Finland is likely going to join NATO...
Finland ‘highly likely’ to join NATO, minister says
Finland’s minister of European Affairs said the country is “highly likely” to join NATO as Russia’s invasion of Ukraine continues. Tytti Tuppurainen told Sky News that polls…
thehill.com
Could be but what happened about a month ago? I think they changed their minds after the special military operation being conducted by Putin in Ukraine. Putin isn't calling it a war.
BTW I can't read your link.
Google:
"Finland warns of ‘major escalation risk’ in Europe amid Nato membership debate"
and "Finland's president has warned that applying for Nato membership would carry a “major risk” of escalation in Europe as the Nordic country"
They apparently now think the reward is greater than the risk. I still don't think it ever happens. It may just be there version of saber rattling.
I think it is political groveling. When only 15% of the population wanted to join NATO, they opposed it. Now that a majority favor joining, they're doing studies to facilitate joining.
Putin has the world bullied with the threat of Nuclear weapons and his threat to use them. Biden needs to call his bluff, but won't because #1 he's too afraid to, and 2, he's too senile to.
Wait, so are you saying that Finland is a country where the elected officials feel like they have to govern in a way that reflects the will of the people they represent or risk not being reelected to their office? So, like, they're forced to "grovel" to what the people want with regards to policy positions? What a concept.
60% of the population in Finland supports NATO membership. How is that groveling? God forbid politicians listen to the voters...
Voters? This was a public opinion poll that flipped in favor of joining NATO for the first time in 70 years. Should the US change policy every month when new poll numbers come out? If they want to find out what the voters want, they'd hold a referendum.
Funny how the President and others watch approval polls. You just can't seem to grasp that Finland and Sweden are planning to quickly join NATO...
Quickly? If they join, it will be in several months. Also, don't forget that Finland fought with Nazi Germany in WWII, not with the Allies. Sweden didn't fight at all during WWII. They were neutral but, as Winston Churchill said, that Sweden “ignored the greater moral issues of the war and played both sides for profit"
NATO already has 20 of 30 members who fail to meet their pledged 2% of GDP spending for defense (link). Does NATO need two more laggards?
NATO spending by country
Finland is definitely going to join it appears. It’s hard to blame them. Russia aggression isn’t doing to deter countries from alliances.
How many times has article 5 been invoked by NATO?
Oh look, your using Trumps worthless gage for NATO.
How many times has article 5 been invoked by NATO?
Trump is pushing NATO allies to spend more on defense. But so did Obama and Bush
"Both former presidents George W. Bush and Barack Obama regularly expressed frustration with NATO member countries for not spending more of their budgets on defense."Bush, Obama and Trump
What does any of this have to do with the fact that they'll be joining NATO when you said they wouldn't be? Germany is in NATO and they started WW2. And both Sweden and Finland have pledged to meet the 2% GDP spending on defense. None of your comments here make any sense...
Sweden plans to spend 2% of GDP on defense - by 2028. Finland is increasing defense spending by 70% in 2022-23 but will still be under 2% at 1.96%.
Sweden 2% by 2028
Finland still under 2%
Now is when your supposed to say they all owe us money!
Why? Why should countries like Finland be expected to spend at the levels of an aggressive country like the United States? It’s a silly metric.
No, I'm posting data and you are responding with insults instead of valid information.
No, but there is currently a push by NATO to deploy more troops to eastern NATO in response th Russia's invasion of Ukraine. Now, who should be sending those additional troops? The US? Or the NATO laggards? And if Sweden and Finland suddenly want to join NATO, maybe they could send the troops!
Because that's what each NATO member pledged to do when they joined NATO: 2% of GDP. Don't you understand that?
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