Yep you nailed it. Even while Biggie was out, we had numerous good looks that just didn't fall.
Dumb,dumb coaching
- Thread starter pb1941
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Exactly.....great game plan.. .. BUT bonehead move keeping CS on the bench allowed the momentum......glad we won, congrats Boilers
The thing is, we had already lost a 19 point lead down to 14 with Swanigan in the game. There was a run already occurring, so whatever.
That being said, zero chance we would have been up by 19 in the first place if it weren't for our coaching. The game plan our coaches came up and execution from our players in 48 hours for this game was incredible.
I just erased what I typed..no sense. We won and you and I are happy...and others will be too if they watch the game another 10 to 15 times.
CMP made every right move except leaving Biggie on the bench as long as he did. Biggie was begging to play and it allowed ISU to get their heads up. Other than that, he did a great job. CMP always has us prepared, it's his occasional game coaching that most of us question. But yes, nice job tonight and let's move on.
Don't spoil my fun...some of this is interesting reading
BTW I have Purdue in the FF. Just because I don't like Painter doesn't mean I root against them. Some fans just need to wrap their head around that one. I believe in Purdue just not the idiotic subbing methods and every play Painter draws up after a TO is a bricked 3 when Biggie and Vince are hot
Nice first post. ...and yes, your post is mostly bullshit.
Not every 5-0 runs extends long enough to erase a 15 point deficit. I don't think saying that because they scored two straight possessions that it is proof that another 17 points was coming on the run.
I'm the first on here to defend Painter but I think you have to be reasonable with criticisms too. He isn't perfect and wouldn't claim to be. I think that keeping Swanigan out for that whole block of time was a mistake.
You can second guess the method, but you can't second guess the result. PJ was clutch with a late 3 and two free throws to ice it - totally awesome! The coaching sort of reminded me of Joe Maddon in game 7 of the World Series - I didn't like the pitching changes he made or least not when he made them, but they ended up winning, so who was I to question it! Great win for Purdue!
Today's game was a game of mis matching styles; much like Purdue verses Michigan. At this stage, no opponent is a gimme win - especially a #5 seed and BIG 12 tourney champ with several NBA bound players! We found a way to win. That's more than 90% of the other Division 1 coaches can say. Purdue is one of only 16 teams left playing. We not only held our own, WE WON !
Burton spun back to his left hand on every drive, and it took forever for Swanigan to take that away. I think Rosie was saying the same thing from the stands when the camera flashed to him.
You're right, it's simplistic to say that we lost that lead because Swanigan was on the bench, but some internet folk look for any excuse to lambaste Painter.
No one really cares. We will celebrate each win while you whine and complain about them. It's who you are.
The thing is - he had him going back in at the right time, but there just wasn't a stoppage in play. I think Iowa State scored 2 baskets while he was waiting to get subbed in. So you could argue he should have taken a time out to get him in, but we still had a double-digit lead. And as others have noted since, Swanigan had been gassed at the end of games and looked gassed tonight at the end. He can't play 40 minutes.
When Iowa State attacked the basket, they were having success. Our perimeter players prevented it from happening so much of the game though.
Okay that is fine and THAT is strictly an opinion. I remember another game that Biggie was upset and immediately turned it over when he came in. Purdue was NOT going to live and die going to the well that early...they had already ran a LOT in this game. Biggie sitting out for the two minutes or so...wasn't biggies man scoring was it??? never started the run and was struggling handling the ball inside as it was getting slapped. It could have been a mistake to not bring Biggie back until it got down to 10 points...reasonable people can debate that. Reasonable people can also appreciate a key rebound, the energy to get a ball "after" cline knocked it loose...lots of things.
Here is the problem...somebody that gets on TV and says something and then others think that person has an idea? I'm pretty sure that Iowa State had just subbec number 1 who took off his sweat and guard Dakota so he could foul him in the last few seconds...now did the Iowa coach think Purdue would go to Dakota...knowing Purdue had put the ball in his hands a lot this year ...and him not only being a passer and shooter or did the Iowa State coach just put him out there and not know. Almost every reason why someone wants to see something there exists a whole other side why you shouldn't. Iowa State took out the guy with dreads that allowed Purdue to lay a guy in the lane so they could spread the court...why I asked the Iowa poster if they could put 3 or 4 players beyond the arc that were a threat and he said 4 1/8...and I knew Purdue could play with them then. Once they spread the court with more quickness and perimeter players...it was a roll of the dice as to whether Haas plays or not. I thought he would play more...but this team is quite the 3 ball shooting team and Purdue didn't want them going on the 3 ball and they knew it and drove the ball. Iowa State would have beaten a HELL OF A LOT OF TEAMS tonight...Purdue was fortunate.
All fans see something that doesn't go the way they like and they think THAT thing...singular thing must be stopped...oblivious in many cases to the things that are trying to be prevented. Iowa State had a group of seniors and their athleticism became a problem for Purdue...they were on scholly and this game was supposed to be a toss up and Purdue led all but maybe 20 seconds or so the whole game.
Now, I admit I do NOT know how long Biggie sat or played in that game, but I'm guessing it was close to the amount of time or less that Wagner let loose for Michigan THAT many said was a coaching mistake that I said..whoever Biggie was guarding that guy could come out as well since Michigan had book ends...and Wilson did it the next game.
When the ball is tossed (and refs do a horrible job of that) the game takes on a life of its own and I give Iowa State credit for playing damn well and using their mismatches to get back in the game rather than thinking Purdue coaching created a F*(& up in resting a person that battled all game for a couple of minutes when the run started before he went out. Surely everyone under the sun could feel the momentum change LONG before biggie went out...surely...
I wanted him in a little bit earlier but the gassed at the end comment doesn't hold much weight when describing a player who works out constantly before and after the game. Biggie may appear gassed but we all know he has worked out to an extreme level to be in shape. Gassed in appearance to us may mean in the zone and totally comfortable to him. Painter made a lot of right calls but this excuse for biggie not coming back in doesn't hold a lot of weight with me.
Purdue was so obviously the better coached team - your assessment of painters coaching is based on your assertion that you know better regarding player substitutions? That is just one small aspect of coaching and armchair "experts" like yourself can second guess after the fact. But the reality is that ISU hit a stretch of hot outside shooting that was the primary reason for their comeback. Easy to claim that hot shooting was due to substitutions but biggie doesn't guard outside particularly well and though I love CE, but he has some growing to do defensively (and he will with Painters coaching). The offensive patterns and plays purdue ran compared to ISU and the defense both individual fundamentals and team concepts - even someone "blind" like me can recognize the superiority of Painter and his staff.
When the guy with the dreads that started went out they place 5 on teh perimeter that were a threat...and that opened up the drives
Pushing yourself to ride a bike after a game doesn't mean you are playing "fresh" in an actual game. Using this logic, he should be playing 40 minutes every game. In the first half, the announcers complimented how effective of a rest Swanigan got.
We were ahead by 19 because Painter game planned and had these guys figured out. We were beating the shit outta ISU because of our talent and our plan. Yes we made some substitutions that opened the door, but ISU's players really played out of their minds to make it close. BUT WE WON. We were better and we showed it. Celebrate mutherfukers!!!
I'd like to hear someone ask the question to both Painter and Swanigan to get their thoughts.
And I absolutely would've called a timeout to get Swanigan back into the game. We might not have killed the Iowa State rally with his defense but I think we were operating very well with him offensively and would've have scored more often to stem the tide. By the time he got back in and ISU was within 7 with plenty of time left, they smelled the blood in the water and had the momentum to complete the comeback and briefly take a lead.
Credit the team for making the plays down the stretch to take back the lead and win but I really think we could've prevented ourselves from being in that position.
And I absolutely would've called a timeout to get Swanigan back into the game. We might not have killed the Iowa State rally with his defense but I think we were operating very well with him offensively and would've have scored more often to stem the tide. By the time he got back in and ISU was within 7 with plenty of time left, they smelled the blood in the water and had the momentum to complete the comeback and briefly take a lead.
Credit the team for making the plays down the stretch to take back the lead and win but I really think we could've prevented ourselves from being in that position.
I think Biggie could play three games in a row and still think he was fresh. I doubt if there has been a game that was close that he would ever want to come out...AND that is what we love about him and makes him who he is. The MO had already switched to iowa state before he went out. If Purdue goes to him too much too early the other players get out of sync as well. Like Carsen not starting I think this too was a TV commentator adding some color...I don't think he was out that long and I'm sure Matt didn't think Iowa state would score as quickly as he did...and so he rolled the dice...like so very many things are rolled based upon sound reasons...some work...some don't and it always has to do with players executing. Purdue doesn't turn it over, doesn't shoot quickly..defends a littel better and Biggie might have been able to sit out 4 to 5 minutes without people noticing.
I was impressed with Purdue and Iowa State and think both teams would have beaten a LOT of teams tonight
I don't think so. He went after that loose ball like a house on fire and was in total beast mode. Even if you sat him, he sat him waaaay too long. Biggie is an emotional player who is either in the flow of a game, or not so much in the flow, and Iowa State, who I see play many times each year is an emotional team that is greatly affected by momentum up or down. He took Biggie out of the flow and let Iowa State get their swagger back. Iowa State was straight up intimidated at the moment he sat Swanigan down.
I don't necessarily think he wasn't tired I just don't like the post game out of breath as an excuse. Let's also be real, Biggie doesn't just ride a bike after the game. You also kind of proved my point that he got an extended rest in the first half. Doesn't matter really because we won and I believe in Painter and his decision paid off. I was just trying to point out the only minimal instance where maybe I didn't think his coaching and set up wasn't absolutely perfect.
I'm assuming that many of us here have played organized ball. Question: How many times did the coach pull you because you were tired, you knew you were tired, he knew you were tired, but YOU still wanted to stay in? And, you outwardly displayed you wanted to stay in? I know I did that A LOT. Be honest, you did it too. So, giving Biggie a rest is one thing I have no problem with. However, I'd surely think Painter could have used TO's better and bought some time to get two things accomplished: Shut down the Iowa St run and buy Biggie some time to rest. I can tell you, I got lost in the heat of the moment and didn't think to look at how many TO's we had left, but he could have used some to not actually lose that damn lead. Look, I get it, we pulled the game out. For that, I'm pretty happy and jacked up. I decided to wait til today as I had way too many and was way too pissed to do that. To say Painter coached perfect because we won is such fools gold. Biggie sat too long. It just is what it is. I think Painter relaxed, thought he had it in the bag and got lazy. My problem is, this isn't the first time we've had late game collapses and you'd think he'd have been very aware of this and react much quicker to that impending run. I think he got away with one and had better damn well learn from it in a single elimination situation. A ball that rolls around the rim, hits that backboard and rolls around some more before going is has nothing to do with coaching. If that shot was made by an Iowa St player, you'd all be going insane about how lucky it was especially if it'd had been a game outcome changer. And, I think it was. That, and this enormous rebound by Biggie. Painter made a bad chess move, but recovered luckily. Let's not see that mistake again, as the talent is much different next weekend. I'll be rooting for MSU, but I like Kansas to win. We better be ready. Painter better be also.
In the midst of the Iowa State run, Painter put a lineup in the game I don't think I have seen all year (Haas, C Edwards, Spike, PJ, and Mathis). Edwards and Swanigan were out of the game and foul trouble wasn't the issue. I completely agree Painter usually has a great game plan. When the other team adjusts Purdue doesn't also make changes. Iowa State played zone when Haas came in and he was a non-factor. Iowa State goes small and Burton starts destroying Biggie in isolation and Painter made zero changes. Your game plan gets thrown out the window when the other team makes changes. Thrilled they one, couldn't be more impressed by the start and the play of everyone. Just don't agree with many of the lineups and choices made in the second half.
Holy wall of text batman!
The bolded part is a great point. I get pulling Biggie to rest him up a tad but he was out too long. Credit Painter for recovering, but their run should of ended sooner with Biggie back in.
Flipside we also should of been able to handle Biggie being out for a couple minutes. What if he gets in foul trouble the next game and he has to sit for an extended period? The players ... and the coach... need to step up. The next game (if we face Kansas) will essentially be a "home" game for them... so is it is going to take a perfect game on EVERYONE's part to pull it off. I have little doubt we can do it, but still if we face Kansas, it will take a monumental effort.
I didn't recall that lineup ever before either.
very interesting having both VE and CS on the bench in crunch time.
and the next sub was VE for Haas, leaving CS out still.
Re swanigan being too tired thus taken out...
I did not have the same observation at that point in the game.
i literally thought he was going to refuse coming out and stay in, he seemed that adamant!
if its true he was that gassed, I may be a bit concerned then... as he logged 34 min vs his season avg of 32.5.
prior to that, he didn't seem to have the same exhaustion issue with 38 min vs Vermont and 43 vs Michigan (a full week before)
something to keep an eye on vs Kansas/msu I guess
Like everybody here, I think Painter let Biggie sit too long. But I do think he was absolutely correct about him needing to rest. I'd have preferred he call a timeout while we still had a double-digit lead and get him back in. On the other hand if Painter had not rested him, I'm not sure he's able to make those plays at the end. I remember at the end of the Nebraska and Iowa games, he had chances that he couldn't convert, maybe due to tired legs.
I wasn't a fan of the lineup either but to think Biggie wouldve singlehandedly stopped the run is foolish. He was on the court when 12 of the 19 points were made back up by ISU and was torched defensively by Burton during the run multiple times. Just because he didn't want to come out doesn't mean he shouldn't have.
We knew that they would have a run in them in the second half like most good teams do in the tournament, especially teams loaded with seniors. I think we only got dunked on once by Burton and that is a huge plus. Morris had some chippies at the end that should never have happened. Those 2 threes by Mathias at the end of the first half were huge. Thompson was just Mr. Clutch. Biggie played his normal awesome game. Everyone is unselfish and wants a TEAM win. I sleep a lot better when we win! Overall great job. Kansas City, Kansas City here we come!
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Swanigan left the game when Purdue was up 14. In real time he got a neary ten minute rest and returned to Purdue having a 7 point lead. His next three touches were a turnover, a missed hook then a converted up and under. Then burton blew by him for that huge dunk.
Are you saying he actually logged more playing time than usual even though he was out too long?
Well, not that you're this type of person - but to expect coaches to be perfect and correct 100% of the time is going to make you very stressed. Look at Coach K & Jay Wright - two of the best coaches out there and are both sitting at home not making the Sweet 16.
I still don't think if the announcer had not made such a big deal of it, it would have gotten much traction. And ISU's run at the time was coming from their guards.
That is the problem with those wanting Painter fired. There is no perfect coach out there and all of them will do things a certain way and make mistakes. But that is why I am 100% in on Painter because he seems to learn from them and is a great coach to boot.
