Did Two Tone McClapperson do a drive by on the hand shake or did it

[Dryfly88]

I don't know Dryfly....Not sure the "nothing magical about Butler" arguement is the question....Ever think that in addition to the $$$ that perhaps the "legendary Boston Celtics" might have presented a little magic in itself for a kid from Indiana who grew up loving the game of basketball the way Stevens did? I mean a pretty impressive story there re:Stevens' rise to fame....And I just don't think IU gets that it's a different- i.e. read "much larger" recruiting world in the college basketball arena. Five star kids don't have the loyalty growing up wanting to play for the local basketball college teams....those years are long gone(generally). These are instant success babies where the "what can you do for me TODAY" mindset rules the day. IU just doesn't have the hot sexy draw that most IU fans want to believe it has...for either players or coaches. The "It's IU" theme doesn't work for anyone but the delusional IU fan base. The Knight days of years of success are long gone- And even then Knight wasn't an icon when he came to IU. Whether one likes him or not, Knight came in and built IU up to both Its and his glory days- not the other way around. If IU is looking for an instant solution it is not just setting itself up for more disappointment, it's setting up their next coach to fail as well.

His salary is double what he made his last year at Butler. So call me a cynic, I'm okay with that.

Instead of focusing on just Stevens, my original point was in response to a poster that said "Butler doesn't need to pay top dollar, coaches love it there". My response was there is nothing special about Butler that would make that statement true. Matta, Lickliter and Stevens all left. It isn't like coaches come to Butler and stay for the rest of their careers. This isn't a shot at Butler, just pointing out that the statement is simply not true. If Butler wants to keep a good/successful coach they will need to pay them top dollar or they will leave just like at any other school. Butler isn't a magical place that every coach dreams of getting to.

 

[JohnnyDoeBoiler]

Don't shoot the messenger, but the NBA puts a whole lot of stock on "measurables." OG practically maxes out in that category, and the knee injury hasn't affected that assessment very much. ACL repairs are reasonably common. He's also a high character kid.

One knee injury isn't that big of a deal...but when you get to multiple injuries and surgeries, its becomes a huge issue with the stress and strain of playing so many games. Playing in the mid-30's with multiple days between each game is much different from jamming 82 games in...some times back to back with little to no down time.

 

[Purdue85]

No idea what your love affair is with Butler...... I guess my toast argument will be tested when either Butler pays more or they lose their coach. We shall see. Did Stevens get more money to go to Boston or not?? You left that part out.

i see you cannot argue my points, so you try to sell some "love affair . . . with Butler." You've got to have something more coherent than that? (apparently not)

I would certainly hope the NBA pays more than Butler. But you think that's what drove him to leave? The money? Not the challenge of the NBA?

Players that played for him, coaches that coached with him, they're on record as saying he has always been focused on, and had a fascination with, the NBA.

Still, if it was all about the money, he would have left sooner. Right? So . . . why didn't he? Maybe it was all about the opportunity of a lifetime, for a guy who dreamed of coaching in the NBA, but stayed with a solid career at Butler until that dream job came along.

Nahhh... it's all about the money.

 

[Purdue85]

I don't know Dryfly....Not sure the "nothing magical about Butler" arguement is the question....Ever think that in addition to the $$$ that perhaps the "legendary Boston Celtics" might have presented a little magic in itself for a kid from Indiana who grew up loving the game of basketball the way Stevens did? I mean a pretty impressive story there re:Stevens' rise to fame....And I just don't think IU gets that it's a different- i.e. read "much larger" recruiting world in the college basketball arena. Five star kids don't have the loyalty growing up wanting to play for the local basketball college teams....those years are long gone(generally). These are instant success babies where the "what can you do for me TODAY" mindset rules the day. IU just doesn't have the hot sexy draw that most IU fans want to believe it has...for either players or coaches. The "It's IU" theme doesn't work for anyone but the delusional IU fan base. The Knight days of years of success are long gone- And even then Knight wasn't an icon when he came to IU. Whether one likes him or not, Knight came in and built IU up to both Its and his glory days- not the other way around. If IU is looking for an instant solution it is not just setting itself up for more disappointment, it's setting up their next coach to fail as well.

You're right, BoilerGal . . . the "magical Butler" nonsense isn't the question or the issue. But a snarky comment comes in handy when there's nothing else. It's an internet forum, after all!

Truth the be told, for many coaches who crave stability, fertile recruiting ground, a decent living, an opportunity to play in a solid, SOLID conference (against the National Champions, no less), at a school with a lot of history, with NO expectation for conference championship and a run at a NC every year? That's a pretty solid gig!

There's a helluva lot more pressure at Purdue and IU than there is at Butler. Fewer resources, too, no doubt.

 

[BoilerGal74]

You're right, BoilerGal . . . the "magical Butler" nonsense isn't the question or the issue. But a snarky comment comes in handy when there's nothing else. It's an internet forum, after all!

Truth the be told, for many coaches who crave stability, fertile recruiting ground, a decent living, an opportunity to play in a solid, SOLID conference (against the National Champions, no less), at a school with a lot of history, with NO expectation for conference championship and a run at a NC every year? That's a pretty solid gig!

There's a helluva lot more pressure at Purdue and IU than there is at Butler. Fewer resources, too, no doubt.

.??? I was writing regarding Stevens being willing to leave Butler to go to the Celtics as opposed to him being willing to leave and go to IU.....As well as not buying into the idea that any and every great coach in college basketball is not ready to drop everything and run to Bloomington just because "It's IU". Obviously we are not on the same communications link...lol!

As for "snarky comments".... well I certainly didn't mean to send anyone running to their "safe spaces"... my apologies.

 

[New Pal Boiler]

i see you cannot argue my points, so you try to sell some "love affair . . . with Butler." You've got to have something more coherent than that? (apparently not)

I would certainly hope the NBA pays more than Butler. But you think that's what drove him to leave? The money? Not the challenge of the NBA?

Players that played for him, coaches that coached with him, they're on record as saying he has always been focused on, and had a fascination with, the NBA.

Still, if it was all about the money, he would have left sooner. Right? So . . . why didn't he? Maybe it was all about the opportunity of a lifetime, for a guy who dreamed of coaching in the NBA, but stayed with a solid career at Butler until that dream job came along.

Nahhh... it's all about the money.

4 guys left Butler for other jobs in a 14 year period, and the other 3 jobs were Xavier, Iowa, and Nebraska.

 

[Dryfly88]

4 guys left Butler for other jobs in a 14 year period, and the other 3 jobs were Xavier, Iowa, and Nebraska.

Bingo!! Thank you, that's what I've been saying for 2 pages. 85 is hung up on Stevens and forgetting his original statement had nothing to do with Stevens. He said Butler doesn't need to pay top dollar to keep coaches. I guess they all left for their dream jobs in Cincy, Iowa City and Lincoln!! Money had nothing to do with it.....

 

[New Pal Boiler]

Bingo!! Thank you, that's what I've been saying for 2 pages. 85 is hung up on Stevens and forgetting his original statement had nothing to do with Stevens. He said Butler doesn't need to pay top dollar to keep coaches. I guess they all left for their dream jobs in Cincy, Iowa City and Lincoln!! Money had nothing to do with it.....

Butler is a great job. But, let's not act like it's a destination job for many coaches.

 

[Wildmanroom]

Bingo!! Thank you, that's what I've been saying for 2 pages. 85 is hung up on Stevens and forgetting his original statement had nothing to do with Stevens. He said Butler doesn't need to pay top dollar to keep coaches. I guess they all left for their dream jobs in Cincy, Iowa City and Lincoln!! Money had nothing to do with it.....

You are too fixated on the $$ and not taking into account the current situation at Butler. Stevens had multiple opportunities to make more $$ in both college and NBA programs. He turned them down until a legendary franchise came calling. He wanted to test his skills in the NBA and the lifestyle had appeal for him and his family. He was quite content at Butler because he loved the culture, his AD, and truth be told, the underdawg mentality. The $$ was sufficient because he's not motivated by crazy amounts of cash. He often said his most prized possession were his keys to Hinkle Fieldhouse.

The coaches that left BU previously were leaving the Horizon League, got a big pay upgrade, left a Hinkle Fieldhouse in need of renovations, a smaller recruiting budget, staffing budget, and a lesser profile program. None of that is true any longer. Holtmann may decide to leave at some point, but the job undeniably has more cache than what you are comparing it to in the past.

 

[New Pal Boiler]

You are too fixated on the $$ and not taking into account the current situation at Butler. Stevens had multiple opportunities to make more $$ in both college and NBA programs. He turned them down until a legendary franchise came calling. He wanted to test his skills in the NBA and the lifestyle had appeal for him and his family. He was quite content at Butler because he loved the culture, his AD, and truth be told, the underdawg mentality. The $$ was sufficient because he's not motivated by crazy amounts of cash. He often said his most prized possession were his keys to Hinkle Fieldhouse.

The coaches that left BU previously were leaving the Horizon League, got a big pay upgrade, left a Hinkle Fieldhouse in need of renovations, a smaller recruiting budget, staffing budget, and a lesser profile program. None of that is true any longer. Holtmann may decide to leave at some point, but the job undeniably has more cache than what you are comparing it to in the past.

This is all true. Butler may not lose a coach to Iowa, Nebraska, or Xavier now.

However, Butler CANNOT pay what IU is paying Crean, and if you think Holtmann is turning down a 100% pay raise, then we will just have to agree to disagree. With the $50 million in B1G TV money, there is still a gigantic chasm there, even with Butler being in the Big East.

 

[Dryfly88]

You are too fixated on the $$ and not taking into account the current situation at Butler. Stevens had multiple opportunities to make more $$ in both college and NBA programs. He turned them down until a legendary franchise came calling. He wanted to test his skills in the NBA and the lifestyle had appeal for him and his family. He was quite content at Butler because he loved the culture, his AD, and truth be told, the underdawg mentality. The $$ was sufficient because he's not motivated by crazy amounts of cash. He often said his most prized possession were his keys to Hinkle Fieldhouse.

The coaches that left BU previously were leaving the Horizon League, got a big pay upgrade, left a Hinkle Fieldhouse in need of renovations, a smaller recruiting budget, staffing budget, and a lesser profile program. None of that is true any longer. Holtmann may decide to leave at some point, but the job undeniably has more cache than what you are comparing it to in the past.

I have already said, "we shall see". History would suggest otherwise. A couple of you are acting like Butler is a destination job that coaches won't leave.

One last time: 85 said "Butler doesn't need to pay top dollar, coaches love it there". There is nothing to suggest that is correct, that is all I have said, period. You may be right and some of the changes they have made may make the job more attractive. The fact is the last 4 coaches have left for more money. I believe they will continue to do so unless Butler pays them top dollar to stay. The facts/history are on my side of the argument.

I have nothing against Butler, unless they are playing PU I don't care about them one way or the other. I'm simply pointing out that the statement made is untrue and giving facts to back that up. I can't help but think 85 has some connection to Butler because his/her defense of the job despite facts to the contrary, would suggest that.

 

[Wildmanroom]

I think you are confusing "left for more money" with "got paid more money". In the case of Stevens, that was not the motivating factor. As to the others, certainly money was a part of the decisionmaking. My point is that the playing field is more level than in the past and a guy like Holtmann may decide another half a million bucks isn't worth it when you are happy in your job (and probably looking at $2M-ish and a contract extension after the season.)

 

[Courthouse Carp]

 

[Purdue85]

I have already said, "we shall see". History would suggest otherwise. A couple of you are acting like Butler is a destination job that coaches won't leave.

One last time: 85 said "Butler doesn't need to pay top dollar, coaches love it there". There is nothing to suggest that is correct, that is all I have said, period. You may be right and some of the changes they have made may make the job more attractive. The fact is the last 4 coaches have left for more money. I believe they will continue to do so unless Butler pays them top dollar to stay. The facts/history are on my side of the argument.

I have nothing against Butler, unless they are playing PU I don't care about them one way or the other. I'm simply pointing out that the statement made is untrue and giving facts to back that up. I can't help but think 85 has some connection to Butler because his/her defense of the job despite facts to the contrary, would suggest that.

there's nothing to suggest it's true if you're not paying attention.

You want to argue just to argue. You won't argue my points, so you just throw out nonsensical crap.

Does an NBA player make more than a college player?

Uh... (scratching head) ... give me a minute.

Uh, well, yes. It's a professional league.

Does an NBA coach make more than a college coach?

Uh, ... uh... well, yes. It's a professional league.

Yet, my points STILL remain.

You think making the assertion I "have a connection to Butler" refutes the points I made? That's lazy. Yet, expected.

Disagree with my points? Argue AGAINST them, not against me.

Unless you're going to take the lazy way out.

I'm a Purdue grad, through and through.

What's next? Lazy, or not?

 

[Purdue85]

I think you are confusing "left for more money" with "got paid more money". In the case of Stevens, that was not the motivating factor. As to the others, certainly money was a part of the decisionmaking. My point is that the playing field is more level than in the past and a guy like Holtmann may decide another half a million bucks isn't worth it when you are happy in your job (and probably looking at $2M-ish and a contract extension after the season.)

This guy gets it.

It's what happens when the brain is engaged.

 

[Purdue85]

I have already said, "we shall see". History would suggest otherwise. A couple of you are acting like Butler is a destination job that coaches won't leave.

One last time: 85 said "Butler doesn't need to pay top dollar, coaches love it there". There is nothing to suggest that is correct, that is all I have said, period. You may be right and some of the changes they have made may make the job more attractive. The fact is the last 4 coaches have left for more money. I believe they will continue to do so unless Butler pays them top dollar to stay. The facts/history are on my side of the argument.

I have nothing against Butler, unless they are playing PU I don't care about them one way or the other. I'm simply pointing out that the statement made is untrue and giving facts to back that up. I can't help but think 85 has some connection to Butler because his/her defense of the job despite facts to the contrary, would suggest that.

dude, it's not a "destination job". Nobody argued that, nobody brought it up, but you. That shows the desperation of your position.

 

[Purdue85]

4 guys left Butler for other jobs in a 14 year period, and the other 3 jobs were Xavier, Iowa, and Nebraska.

Yep. It happens. Yet, my point remains.

 

[Purdue85]

.??? I was writing regarding Stevens being willing to leave Butler to go to the Celtics as opposed to him being willing to leave and go to IU.....As well as not buying into the idea that any and every great coach in college basketball is not ready to drop everything and run to Bloomington just because "It's IU". Obviously we are not on the same communications link...lol!

As for "snarky comments".... well I certainly didn't mean to send anyone running to their "safe spaces"... my apologies.

no, no need to apologize. The snarky comments weren't from you. I think we're saying the same thing.

 

[Purdue85]

Butler is a great job. But, let's not act like it's a destination job for many coaches.

then don't act like that. nobody has suggested it's a "destination job for many coaches". Argue facts.

 

[New Pal Boiler]

then don't act like that. nobody has suggested it's a "destination job for many coaches". Argue facts.

You said "Butler doesn't need to pay top dollar." That's not true, unless someone views it as a destination job.

IU offers Holtmann $3.6 million, (which they can do and not even miss it) and Butler offers $1.8 million, he gone.

 

[Dryfly88]

Yep. It happens. Yet, my point remains.

WTF is your point?? It has been pointed out multiple times that Butler has lost coaches recently to other programs paying more money. So, what part of your statement "Butler doesn't need to pay top dollar" is correct??

There is zero evidence to support your statement. I'll gladly have a reasonable discussion if you want. I'm giving you "facts" that you keep asking for and yet you keep ignoring them. The 4 most recent Butler coaches have left for more money elsewhere. How many more Facts do you want???

 

[Purdue85]

WTF is your point?? It has been pointed out multiple times that Butler has lost coaches recently to other programs paying more money. So, what part of your statement "Butler doesn't need to pay top dollar" is correct??

There is zero evidence to support your statement. I'll gladly have a reasonable discussion if you want. I'm giving you "facts" that you keep asking for and yet you keep ignoring them. The 4 most recent Butler coaches have left for more money elsewhere. How many more Facts do you want???

my point has been made numerous times . . . which you've failed to grasp.

Which of my points is wrong?

Zero evidence? You haven't argued ANY of my points, so you can't possibly argue my points are wrong. All you've done is to try to argue against ME.

Only when you refute my points will you have credibility. Can't remember them? Go back and revisit them. Until that time your retorts are irrelevant.

 

[Purdue85]

You said "Butler doesn't need to pay top dollar." That's not true, unless someone views it as a destination job.

IU offers Holtmann $3.6 million, (which they can do and not even miss it) and Butler offers $1.8 million, he gone.

B-S.

People take jobs all the time where they're not paid "top dollar", yet those jobs aren't "destination".

You might be right . . . Holtmann might leave for more money. But, you're making the argument money drives every decision.

Has it for you?

It doesn't for everyone. I know people who have turned down loads of money for lifestyle. Ever heard of that?

 

[New Pal Boiler]

B-S.

People take jobs all the time where they're not paid "top dollar", yet those jobs aren't "destination".

You might be right . . . Holtmann might leave for more money. But, you're making the argument money drives every decision.

Has it for you?

It doesn't for everyone. I know people who have turned down loads of money for lifestyle. Ever heard of that?

No, I don't know anyone who turned down a $1.8 million raise, that was guaranteed for 6 years. Do you?

 

[Dryfly88]

my point has been made numerous times . . . which you've failed to grasp.

Which of my points is wrong?

Zero evidence? You haven't argued ANY of my points, so you can't possibly argue my points are wrong. All you've done is to try to argue against ME.

Only when you refute my points will you have credibility. Can't remember them? Go back and revisit them. Until that time your retorts are irrelevant.

All of them.

I've grown tired of this. Good luck with your current coach, I hope you have better luck keeping him than the past 4.

 

[Purdue85]

All of them.

I've grown tired of this. Good luck with your current coach, I hope you have better luck keeping him than the past 4.

you haven't addressed any of them.

You're lazy.

You still want to make this about me. I'm a Purdue fan, through and through. That's why your argument is so weak.

 

[Purdue85]

No, I don't know anyone who turned down a $1.8 million raise, that was guaranteed for 6 years. Do you?

Okay . . . who are they?

 

[Purdue85]

Okay . . . who are they?

. . . and how many are there?

 

[Purdue85]

Okay . . . who are they?

Do you know all the people who have been offered?

No, you don't.

And, is a $1.8Million increase your threshold? Your minimum?

What about a mere $100,000?

Or $250,000?

Or ... say, $500,000?

What about those?

It's just about the money, right??

 

[Purdue85]

All of them.

I've grown tired of this. Good luck with your current coach, I hope you have better luck keeping him than the past 4.

you dipstick, Painter is my "current coach".

 

[Dryfly88]

you haven't addressed any of them.

You're lazy.

You still want to make this about me. I'm a Purdue fan, through and through. That's why your argument is so weak.

I've addressed your original post at least 5 times. Your last 4 coaches have all left for more money.

Good luck in the NCAA I hope your Bulldogs do well.

 

[SIBoiler2]

.??? I was writing regarding Stevens being willing to leave Butler to go to the Celtics as opposed to him being willing to leave and go to IU.....As well as not buying into the idea that any and every great coach in college basketball is not ready to drop everything and run to Bloomington just because "It's IU". Obviously we are not on the same communications link...lol!

As for "snarky comments".... well I certainly didn't mean to send anyone running to their "safe spaces"... my apologies.

Can you remember when discussions didn't end in "safe spaces".

 

[Purdue85]

I've addressed your original post at least 5 times. Your last 4 coaches have all left for more money.

Good luck in the NCAA I hope your Bulldogs do well.

No, you have not. I posed numerous question of which you've avoided, only to advance your own narrative.

 

[Purdue85]

I've addressed your original post at least 5 times. Your last 4 coaches have all left for more money.

Good luck in the NCAA I hope your Bulldogs do well.

you've been exposed.

 

[Dryfly88]

you've been exposed.

Living rent free.

 

[Purdue85]

Living rent free.

Yup!

 

[New Pal Boiler]

Do you know all the people who have been offered?

I know at least 4.

 

[BU_Milksteak]

Purdue and IU fans love to talk about "salary," "TV contracts," and "recruiting," but they never seem to talk about "WINS," the only thing that matters.

If money and recruiting and all that other stuff actually correlated with wins, Butler wouldn't have a winning streak against Purdue that dates back to the first year of the Bush Administration.

I really don't give a rats ass about Butler's recruiting, salaries and TV deals as long as they are winning. That's the ultimate goal. The other stuff helps, sure. But it's all about wins.

 

[HoosierfanJM]

Wow; I think you would be in the minority of IU and PU fans if you think Crean isn't going to be bounced because his results have been so good.

Yes, he's one year removed from a conference championship. He is also one year removed from a five seed in the NCAA tournament, and another NCAA tournament flame out. In the past four years, Indiana has only been seeded higher than a 10 seed once.

He gone, and it's mainly result based, even with last year's showing.

And, if and when the job opens up this year, it is very likely to be the highest level opening in the country. High-level coaches expect passionate fan bases, high expectations, the best conferences, very high-level facilities, a big recruiting budget, a huge paycheck, to be at a school where basketball is the highest priority sport, and a history in the sport.

You may not like IU, but those characteristics sure as heck seem to describe IU.

Bump-a-rooni!
I would like a virtual Guinness, please.

Edit: from Twin...the rest of you guys are pretty sane about this stuff.