Democrat Hypocrisy - No ID to vote, but a vaccine passport to enter a restaurant

[BoilerBF]

The argument about the effectiveness of cloth masks not withstanding (and boilersteel has pointed out that even Osterholm has said they’re better than nothing), cloth masks are not the only option. That said, would you not wear a belt-only seatbelt because it’s less effective than a three-point one?

If the data on belt only seat belts showed they were worth wearing, I would wear one. Presumably it does show benefit, but I haven't looked at the data.

There has been one gold standard RCT study done on masks in Denmark. That study showed no statistical significant benefit for the person wearing the mask. That study did not look at whether wearing a mask protected others.

Osterholm is now saying cloth masks just aren't very effective, for the wearer or protecting others. Fauci 10 months into the pandemic doubled down on cloth masks saying wear 2 of them. Kind of an odd thing to do if one cloth mask was working.

It's been the problem with guidance from CDC & Fauci since the beginning. There is no strategy based on risk level. 3 year old kids get treated as if they are 80 years old in many cities. That's fine for a "two weeks to stop the spread strategy". Doesn't work for an 18 month strategy, and doesn't work for a virus that could be around for a long time.

Flu is a bigger risk to kids than Covid. We going to mask kids for their whole school career? If not, why not?

 

[jrcrist]

Public health takes priority over individual health. I want to drink and drive.........but because I stand a better chance of killing someone when I do, the government has made it against the law. The public comes before the individual.

You had to get shots to go to school. My son just had to show vaccination records before he can go to college.

Masks lol. Yeah, they're a pain in the ass. How badly do they restrict your freedom? 7-11 is restricting your freedom because you have to put on a freaking shirt. Protest that. Your second amendment rights are being violated when a restaurant wont let you bring your sidearm in for dinner. Protest that. The homeowner's association is taking away your freedom to paint your house pink. Protest that.

Do you understand the very significant difference between a private sector company making its own rules and the government mandating these things? That’s key in this discussion and based on your reply, I don’t think you do.

There is this little thing known as the Constitution, which is the supreme law of the land and takes precedent over whatever scenario you want to throw out there. That’s an irrefutable fact, so just because this current admin wants to ignore it, that doesn’t make it any less true. It was created for these very reasons, to protect citizens from the government from infringing upon INDIVIDUAL rights. Your son has a choice to go to college, it’s not a right. You don’t have to live in a neighborhood with a homeowners association, that’s not a right. I do however have a right to go about my daily life without the government telling me I have to stick a needle in my arm because the government tells me I should. And this is an experimental vaccine that hasn’t even been approved by the same govt that is telling you to take it! These same “experts” also told you this virus didn’t come from the Wuhan lab. These same “experts” funneled money into Chinese virology labs to develop bio weapons. These same “experts” were just discovered to be funding human organ harvesting. Wake the f$&k up!

 

[TheGunner]

That was before the surge in the delta variant. New information prompted a change in the plan.

So why take off the masks? The delta variant existed before the masks were removed. Why not enforce masks until there was no more COVID virus in the world?? Better safe than dead, right?

 

[Droid12345]

If the data on belt only seat belts showed they were worth wearing, I would wear one. Presumably it does show benefit, but I haven't looked at the data.

That's good, but you're not looking at the mask data, you're just using a single statement from Osterholm.

There has been one gold standard RCT study done on masks in Denmark. That study showed no statistical significant benefit for the person wearing the mask. That study did not look at whether wearing a mask protected others.

Wearing a mask has never been intended to protect the wearer, but others. There have been other studies that have shown that wearing masks, even cloth ones, reduce the amount of aerosols sent into the environment. So, masks are effective, to varying degrees.

Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19)

CDC provides credible COVID-19 health information to the U.S.

www.cdc.gov

Osterholm is now saying cloth masks just aren't very effective, for the wearer or protecting others. Fauci 10 months into the pandemic doubled down on cloth masks saying wear 2 of them. Kind of an odd thing to do if one cloth mask was working.

See above RE: data on effectiveness of masks. And Osterholm ALSO says his statement shouldn't be used to justify not wearing a mask, but you seem to keep ignoring that. You've also ignored the fact that cloth masks are not the only option for someone to wear. Or are you suggesting that because Osterholm says cloth masks aren't effective, that also means N95s or surgical masks aren't effective? Fauci saying one thing and then another (why he did so is a different discussion) doesn't change what the various actual studies say. If you don't trust Fauci, then why listen to him? Look at the studies.

It's been the problem with guidance from CDC & Fauci since the beginning. There is no strategy based on risk level. 3 year old kids get treated as if they are 80 years old in many cities. That's fine for a "two weeks to stop the spread strategy". Doesn't work for an 18 month strategy, and doesn't work for a virus that could be around for a long time.

It's funny people use "two weeks to slow the spread" as if it was a Democratic Party thing. That was the Trump administration's idea (though it was actually 15 days). Maybe you're not implying that, but I've seen many people do it. But, I'll defer to my earlier statement: while there may have been incorrect or confusing guidance at various points, that doesn't mean that the CURRENT guidance is incorrect. We know masks work from studies that looked at source control and those that examined the effect of mask mandates on the rates of community spread (boilersteel posted these earlier). If more people had gotten vaccinated, this would all be a moot point, but since too many haven't, here we are. Since I can't know if I've been infected and am simply asymptomatic, I'm willing to take on an extremely minor inconvenience of wearing a mask when I'm around other people indoors because science shows that it might prevent me from infecting someone else who may themselves die or pass it yet another person who does. You're obviously not, since you didn't commit to wearing an N95.

Flu is a bigger risk to kids than Covid. We going to mask kids for their whole school career? If not, why not?

No. Why? Kids can get flu shots, so we already have something more effective than masks for preventing flu. They can't get Covid vaccines, at least not yet. So, for now, masks are the best thing we have for protecting kids.

Flu (Influenza) and the Vaccine

Protect your child against flu by getting a flu vaccine every year.

www.cdc.gov

 

[BoilerBF]

Wearing a mask has never been intended to protect the wearer, but others.

Flu (Influenza) and the Vaccine

Protect your child against flu by getting a flu vaccine every year.

www.cdc.gov

Lol, simply false. Apparently Redfield and Fauci didn't get your memo. The only RCT human study done on masks showed no benefit to the wearer. Either Redfield and Fauci lied to the country, or they incorrectly evaluated the anecdotal and lab experiment data regarding benefits to wearer of mask.

CDC says masks protect wearers from Covid-19

Wearing a mask can help protect you, not just those around you, from coronavirus transmission, the CDC said in new guidance Tuesday.

www.cnn.com

Regarding kids, not everyone gets a flu shot. And they are major spreaders of the flu, with or without flu shot. So I ask again should we mask kids for their entire school career, since flu is more dangerous to kids than Covid?

 

[Droid12345]

Lol, simply false. Apparently Redfield and Fauci didn't get your memo. The only RCT human study done on masks showed no benefit to the wearer. Either Redfield and Fauci lied to the country, or they incorrectly evaluated the anecdotal and lab experiment data regarding benefits to wearer of mask.

At no point did I say the mask was effective for the wearer. The studies show it's effective at source control. Examinations of the effect of mask mandates show they reduced community spread. Wearing a mask is not, and has never been, about protecting the wearer any more than covering your cough is about protecting the cougher.

CDC says masks protect wearers from Covid-19

Wearing a mask can help protect you, not just those around you, from coronavirus transmission, the CDC said in new guidance Tuesday.

www.cnn.com

View embedded media

Regarding kids, not everyone gets a flu shot. And they are major spreaders of the flu, with or without flu shot. So I ask again should we mask kids for their entire school career, since flu is more dangerous to kids than Covid?

It's true that not everyone gets a flu shot, maybe they should. Perhaps that's something we can learn from this whole ordeal. Bottom line is, they CAN get one, which means parents have the means to protect their kids from the flu that they don't currently have for Covid. Why ask again when I already answered your question? No, we shouldn't mask kids forever. Once they can be vaccinated and the pandemic is generally under control, there's no longer any need.

By the way, it doesn't really change the argument either way, but when I try to confirm or deny your claim, results of studies have been mixed. It seems the risk to kids of flu vs. covid is relatively comparable.

COVID-19 Not Very Deadly in Youths But Has Worse Symptoms Than Flu

www.uspharmacist.com

Do kids get sicker with the flu or COVID-19? Neither, study finds

Scientists found no difference in rates of hospitalization, admission to the intensive care unit and mechanical ventilator use between the two groups.

www.usatoday.com

Covid hospitalizations are rare among children, but still more frequent than for flu, the C.D.C. says. (Published 2021)

The findings run counter to claims that influenza is more threatening to children than Covid-19 is.

www.nytimes.com

Study suggests COVID-19 in children is milder than the flu

Researchers retrospectively analyzed the medical records of children in Turkey hospitalized because of coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) or influenza and found COVID-19 to be milder than influenza in this group.

www.news-medical.net

NOTE: This is purposefully a mix of what's out there. I'm not trying to prove that Covid is worse for kids than flu, nor am I trying to prove the opposite. Simply showing that the answer to which is more dangerous is not entirely clear at this point.

 

[BoilerBF]

. Wearing a mask is not, and has never been, about protecting the wearer any more than covering your cough is about protecting the cougher.

Read the CDC/Fauci article I linked. Listen to the Redfield YouTube clip I linked. You are simply wrong with that claim.

 

[Droid12345]

Read the CDC/Fauci article I linked. Listen to the Redfield YouTube clip I linked. You are simply wrong with that claim.

I'd say Redfield's statement is fairly ambiguous whether he was specifically talking about the wearer or about wearing masks in general, but fine. Those claims that masks protect the wearer are, for the most part wrong (there is some data that says it helps a little bit). But even at the same time as the CDC said masks can help protect yourself (however little the effect), they ALSO said the primary reason to wear a mask is still to protect others.

"When the CDC first recommended that Americans wear cloth face coverings back in April, it cited evidence that the coronavirus could be transmitted by asymptomatic people who might not be aware of their infectiousness – a group estimated to account for more than 50% of transmissions. The agency said masks were intended to block virus-laden particles that might be emitted by an infected person.

In a report updated Tuesday, the CDC says that is still the primary intention of wearing masks. But it also cites growing evidence that even cloth masks can also reduce the amount of infectious droplets inhaled by the wearer."

Wear Masks To Protect Yourself From The Coronavirus, Not Only Others, CDC Stresses

The public health agency had previously emphasized that masks protect other people from viruses you might expel. The new advice gives a less altruistic reason to wear face coverings.

www.npr.org

You've taken part of what they said (masks help the wearer), and ignored the other part of what they said (but the main reason is to protect others). You did the same thing with Osterholm, using the fact he said cloth masks are less effective and ignoring the part where he said but they still help and you should still wear masks.

But, let's say that, at the beginning, they said the only reason to wear a mask was to protect the wearer. They would have been wrong about that. But that has literally no bearing on whether or not the mask protects others. We could have thought masks helped one way in the beginning and then realized they actually helped another way. Your demonstration that there was some guidance given that was mostly incorrect does nothing to refute my actual argument that masks help protect others.

Twice now in this thread I've claimed masks help protect people other than the wearer and I have provided data to support it. Your response has simply been "but they said masks help the wearer when they don't." So what if they don't? I'm not making that argument, so there's no reason for you to argue against it. If you want to argue that masks DON'T help other people, find some data to support it and stop deflecting to the fact that incorrect claims were previously given and which was likely based on limited data.

 

[BoilerBF]

I'd say Redfield's statement is fairly ambiguous

Lol on Redfield's statement being ambiguous.

I do want to make one correction, Osterholm is no longer an advisor to Biden. My bad on that, didn't realize he was no longer advising.

Would think the Press Secretary could talk to Fauci or CDC director, so she is better prepared to answer this basic question, that a lot of people are interested in. The journalist simply cited Osterholm and a study that DeSantis relied on for his executive order, and her reply is DeSantis is fund raising off that, and cut off a follow up question on this seemingly relevant topic.

 

[BuilderBob6]

Do you understand the very significant difference between a private sector company making its own rules and the government mandating these things? That’s key in this discussion and based on your reply, I don’t think you do.

There is this little thing known as the Constitution, which is the supreme law of the land and takes precedent over whatever scenario you want to throw out there. That’s an irrefutable fact, so just because this current admin wants to ignore it, that doesn’t make it any less true. It was created for these very reasons, to protect citizens from the government from infringing upon INDIVIDUAL rights. Your son has a choice to go to college, it’s not a right. You don’t have to live in a neighborhood with a homeowners association, that’s not a right. I do however have a right to go about my daily life without the government telling me I have to stick a needle in my arm because the government tells me I should. And this is an experimental vaccine that hasn’t even been approved by the same govt that is telling you to take it! These same “experts” also told you this virus didn’t come from the Wuhan lab. These same “experts” funneled money into Chinese virology labs to develop bio weapons. These same “experts” were just discovered to be funding human organ harvesting. Wake the f$&k up!

Public health. You didn't even address it. Its been fought over for a long time but its a reasonable argument.
Your right to individual rights ENDS when you endanger others by your actions......or in this case, inaction. Drunk driving. You dont have the right to kill me because you want to drive home drunk.
You don't have the right to enganger my life. Is the pandemic that severe? That's certainly debateable. There are no easy answers here but to act there is no argument against your position is ridiculous.

Do you think if trump were still president and was raving about the vaccine everyday and telling americans to get it there would be near as many trump pubs unvaccinated? Of course not. In that scenario there may be many dems who wouldn't have gotten the vaccine, maybe we would be in the same spot with the positions reversed. You and yours wouldn't be a damn bit worried about FDA approval or chinese labs or whatever other shit you want to throw out. THAT government would be the one telling you to take it and most of you would.......BECAUSE OF WHO WAS TELLING YOU TO. Your party, not the evil other party. Thats the problem here.

Polls say only 10-15% ofvthe unvaccinated would just consider getting the vaccine if it had FDA approval. Just another government agency under the evildoers.

Don't believe the government, the scientists, the experts, the stats, the FBI, the CDC, the NSA, the FDA, the election results, voting machines, election officials, the 1/6 commission, the officers who testified, the video footage, the DOJ, Cohen, Mattis, Kelly, Milley, McMaster, Barr, Kinzinger, Cheney.....
and anybody else who is disloyal to or has not gone along with Trump's wishes.

But believe trump and Rudy and Tucker and Kraken and Lindell and Gaetz and MTG.

 

[Droid12345]

Lol on Redfield's statement being ambiguous.

His literal words are unambiguous, but I suspect he was speaking figuratively and using his mask and himself as a stand-in for all masks and all people. Doesn't really matter, though. I've conceded the point that they did, at some points along the way, claim that masks helped the wearer. But, that's not the position I've taken at any point in this discussion. All along the way, in addition to dubious claims about the efficacy of masks in protecting the wearer, they've said masks protect others. Data confirm that claim.

 

[BoilerBF]

All along the way, in addition to dubious claims about the efficacy of masks in protecting the wearer, they've said masks protect others. Data confirm that claim.

By "data" do you mean lab experiments, theories, and anecdotal stories?

Or gold standard RCT studies?

Why would Osterholm say that we know cloth masks dont work very well? Are there studies he is unaware of?

 

[jdevers1]

So why take off the masks? The delta variant existed before the masks were removed. Why not enforce masks until there was no more COVID virus in the world?? Better safe than dead, right?

You’re trying to make an argument out of nothing. Biden handled it appropriately (and certainly better than Trump).

 

[TheGunner]

You’re trying to make an argument out of nothing. Biden handled it appropriately (and certainly better than Trump).

Oh. 130,000 cases with 70% vaccinated is great in your opinion.

Sounds good. And since Biden “handled it” we don’t have to worry about wearing masks again or the need for vaccination papers because the pandemic is over. Got it.

 

[jdevers1]

Oh. 130,000 cases with 70% vaccinated is great in your opinion.

Sounds good. And since Biden “handled it” we don’t have to worry about wearing masks again or the need for vaccination papers because the pandemic is over. Got it.

You can thank the demented right wing of the country for the current outbreak.

 

[TheGunner]

You can thank the demented right wing of the country for the current outbreak.

That’s why it’s running rampant through LA today, because of the Republicans.

par for the course since the first wave started in Democrat governed areas, right Andy Cuomo, Seattle and SF.

Andy Cuomo’s handling of COVID was legendary. Outbreak in New Rochelle, NY led eventually to NYC and then to the eastern seaboard.

For many days after the first positive test, as the coronavirus silently spread throughout the New York region, Mr. Cuomo, Mr. de Blasio and their top aides projected an unswerving confidence that the outbreak would be readily contained.

“Excuse our arrogance as New Yorkers — I speak for the mayor also on this one — we think we have the best health care system on the planet right here in New York,” Mr. Cuomo said on March 2. “So, when you’re saying, what happened in other countries versus what happened here, we don’t even think it’s going to be as bad as it was in other countries.”

But now, New York City and the surrounding suburbs have become the epicenter of the pandemic in the United States, with far more cases than many countries have. More than 138,000 people in the state have tested positive for the virus, with nearly all of them in the city and nearby suburbs.

How Delays and Unheeded Warnings Hindered New York’s Virus Fight (Published 2020)

The federal response was chaotic. Even so, the state’s and city’s own initial efforts failed to keep pace with the outbreak, The Times found.

www.nytimes.com

From March 2020….New York's governor on Saturday ripped suggestions by President Donald Trump that he might institute a ban on New Yorkers' travel to others states amid the coronavirus, and Cuomo threatened to sue Rhode Island if it continues to seek out New Yorkers entering its borders.

Cuomo rips attempts to ban New Yorkers' travel to other states, vowing to sue Rhode Island

Cuomo ripped suggestions by President Donald Trump that he might institute a ban on New Yorkers' travel to others states amid the coronavirus.

amp.lohud.com

 

[jrcrist]

You can thank the demented right wing of the country for the current outbreak.

Says the party bussing hundreds of thousands illegal immigrants to the interior of the country and dropping them off during a pandemic 🤡 I assume you don’t support the flow of illegals across the southern border since you’re so concerned about the spread of covid?

 

[jdevers1]

Says the party bussing hundreds of thousands illegal immigrants to the interior of the country and dropping them off during a pandemic 🤡 I assume you don’t support the flow of illegals across the southern border since you’re so concerned about the spread of covid?

Mexicans aren’t the ones spreading covid. That’s the ignorant, Republican snowflakes.

 

[jrcrist]

Mexicans aren’t the ones spreading covid. That’s the ignorant, Republican snowflakes.

Yeah, okay. You do realize there have been thousands of illegals that have tested positive, don’t you? And just for the record, the majority of those crossing the border illegally are not Mexican. Another ignorant liberal hot take.

 

[Indy-Dawg]

Yeah, okay. You do realize there have been thousands of illegals that have tested positive, don’t you? And just for the record, the majority of those crossing the border illegally are not Mexican. Another ignorant liberal hot take.

You’ve been listening to Fox News and other delusional right-wing media whose claims don’t hold up. Immigrants aren’t the reason for the surge. It’s because of our own ignorant citizens who refuse to take the vaccine.

 

[jrcrist]

You’ve been listening to Fox News and other delusional right-wing media whose claims don’t hold up. Immigrants aren’t the reason for the surge. It’s because of our own ignorant citizens who refuse to take the vaccine.

It’s Democrats, Biden admin’s border policies spreading COVID: Devine

Cheery Dr. Anthony Fauci was on television again Sunday warning us “things are going to get worse” with COVID-19.

nypost.com

In just two weeks, 135 illegal immigrants test positive for COVID-19 at Rio Grande Valley border

Customs and Border Protection confirmed that 135 detainees at the Rio Grande Valley crossing point have tested positive for COVID-19 in the first two weeks of July alone.

news.yahoo.com

https://www.star-telegram.com/opinion/cynthia-m-allen/article253279983.html

Turn off Don Lemon and Chuomo for once and open your eyes. No one is blaming surges solely on illegal immigrants but to act like it isn’t part of the problem is disingenuous and ignorant

 

[TheGunner]

Mexicans aren’t the ones spreading covid. That’s the ignorant, Republican snowflakes.

Yeah, right, all of the illegal immigrants are vaccinated and wearing masks🤪

 

[TheGunner]

You’ve been listening to Fox News and other delusional right-wing media whose claims don’t hold up. Immigrants aren’t the reason for the surge. It’s because of our own ignorant citizens who refuse to take the vaccine.

And it was the wet market, bats and pangolins that started this….so sayeth MSNBC…so sayeth the flock

How are those black and brown vaccination rates? How are the “Republicans” spreading COVID in LA county?

 

[BoilerBF]

It’s because of our own ignorant citizens who refuse to take the vaccine.

Israel which was widely credited as having one of the best vaccine rollouts in the world is now starting to see a surge in cases. Vaccine so far have done a good job protecting the most vulnerable, but it isn't going to get rid of covid. Like the flu, Covid isn't going away..

 

[Indy-Dawg]

Yeah, right, all of the illegal immigrants are vaccinated and wearing masks🤪

That’s your xenophobia talking, bub.

 

[TheGunner]

That’s your xenophobia talking, bub.

Should we just let Russians illegally migrate to our country unregulated, bub?

I have zero problem with legal immigration. Why not have more people to process more immigrants legally? I guess I can keep my xenophobia in check when there’s legal immigration.

 

[BoilerJS]

Public health. You didn't even address it. Its been fought over for a long time but its a reasonable argument.
Your right to individual rights ENDS when you endanger others by your actions......or in this case, inaction. Drunk driving. You dont have the right to kill me because you want to drive home drunk.
You don't have the right to enganger my life. Is the pandemic that severe? That's certainly debateable. There are no easy answers here but to act there is no argument against your position is ridiculous.

Do you think if trump were still president and was raving about the vaccine everyday and telling americans to get it there would be near as many trump pubs unvaccinated? Of course not. In that scenario there may be many dems who wouldn't have gotten the vaccine, maybe we would be in the same spot with the positions reversed. You and yours wouldn't be a damn bit worried about FDA approval or chinese labs or whatever other shit you want to throw out. THAT government would be the one telling you to take it and most of you would.......BECAUSE OF WHO WAS TELLING YOU TO. Your party, not the evil other party. Thats the problem here.

Polls say only 10-15% ofvthe unvaccinated would just consider getting the vaccine if it had FDA approval. Just another government agency under the evildoers.

Don't believe the government, the scientists, the experts, the stats, the FBI, the CDC, the NSA, the FDA, the election results, voting machines, election officials, the 1/6 commission, the officers who testified, the video footage, the DOJ, Cohen, Mattis, Kelly, Milley, McMaster, Barr, Kinzinger, Cheney.....
and anybody else who is disloyal to or has not gone along with Trump's wishes.

But believe trump and Rudy and Tucker and Kraken and Lindell and Gaetz and MTG.

So I have to wear a mask to protect someone who refuses to get vaccinated and doesn’t wear a mask.
Sorry your drunk driving comparison doesn’t hold water.
A better comparison would be the drunk has the opportunity to not get drunk (get vaccinated).

 

[skyler332]

Just popping in to add my two cents to this spirited conversation. The topic of voter ID versus vaccine passports is a hot potato, that's for sure! While both scenarios require some form of verification, the contexts are quite different. Voting is a constitutional right, while entering a restaurant is more about public health safety during a pandemic.Now, I hear some of you raising concerns about potential overreach and privacy issues. Fair points! But maybe there's a middle ground here. Verification tools like www.idanalyzer.com could offer a balanced approach, safeguarding our health while respecting individual freedoms.

 

[BoilerJS]

Just popping in to add my two cents to this spirited conversation. The topic of voter ID versus vaccine passports is a hot potato, that's for sure! While both scenarios require some form of verification, the contexts are quite different. Voting is a constitutional right, while entering a restaurant is more about public health safety during a pandemic.Now, I hear some of you raising concerns about potential overreach and privacy issues. Fair points! But maybe there's a middle ground here.

It's a constitutional right for CITIZENS.
Let's just send mail in ballots to China, Mexico and Russia while we're at it.
The right to bear arms is also a constitutional right and yet I have to show an ID to buy a gun.
And even with a lifetime concealed weapons permit in Indiana I can't legally carry in Cook County Illinois.

 

[bonefish1]

Just popping in to add my two cents to this spirited conversation. The topic of voter ID versus vaccine passports is a hot potato, that's for sure! While both scenarios require some form of verification, the contexts are quite different. Voting is a constitutional right, while entering a restaurant is more about public health safety during a pandemic.Now, I hear some of you raising concerns about potential overreach and privacy issues. Fair points! But maybe there's a middle ground here.

is flying on an airplane a right if you can afford it? Why should you be required to produce ID if you want to fly somewhere?