Another great SCOTUS decision!

jrcrist

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I do. They weren’t my kids until they were born.
So your comment just solidifies why this isn’t and shouldn’t be a federal issue, and a one size fits all approach, as we don’t even agree on what the word “directly” means, let alone the more complex aspects of murder, I mean abortion.
 

mdthornb

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Huh? Men are affected too Bucko. Why doesnt anyone talk about men and women taking responsibility to avoid getting pregnant?

Ever heard of contraception? Adoption?


Here’s another one. Let’s say bob is really hungry. He sees that Tom has some food. Bob then goes and takes all of Tom’s food. When tom objects to bob taking his food, bob tells tom to step off of the ledge and stop worrying about it. Wow, bob is a really jerk isn’t he?
 

mdthornb

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So your comment just solidifies why this isn’t and shouldn’t be a federal issue, and a one size fits all approach, as we don’t even agree on what the word “directly” means, let alone the more complex aspects of murder, I mean abortion.

People disagree on constitutional issues all the time but we still get universal laws.
 

mdthornb

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Constitutional issues that are actually in the Constitution, which abortion is not one of.

Sounds like we need A ruling on how the right to life applies to the unborn and not just for the states to do whatever they want.
 

The Truffle Shuffle

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I do. They weren’t my kids until they were born.
Interesting...So, I take it you took zero responsibility until they were born (pay any bills, attend any doctor's visits or classes), right? You know...since they weren't yours? What an idiotic take.
 

mdthornb

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Interesting...So, I take it you took zero responsibility until they were born (pay any bills, attend any doctor's visits or classes), right? You know...since they weren't yours? What an idiotic take.

My wife and I are a partnership. Also, my wife didn’t have any kids until they was born either.
 

The Truffle Shuffle

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My wife and I are a partnership. Also, my wife didn’t have any kids until they was born either.
Incredible. So when you went for the ultrasound and the nurse said, "That's the sound of your baby's heartbeat!". You said, "That's not a baby. It's just an autonomous collection of cells...with a heartbeat."?

Did your wife have an autonomous collection of cells that don't belong to us party?
 

mdthornb

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Incredible. So when you went for the ultrasound and the nurse said, "That's the sound of your baby's heartbeat!". You said, "That's not a baby. It's just an autonomous collection of cells...with a heartbeat."?

Did your wife have an autonomous collection of cells that don't belong to us party?

Nope. I don’t feel the need to tell the nurse that she left out the word “potential” because we aren’t having a philosophical discussion.

Also, the stuff you get at a baby show is used when? For the fetus still inside the woman? Good luck trying to get the onsie on it while Still in the womb.
 

The Truffle Shuffle

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Nope. I don’t feel the need to tell the nurse that she left out the word “potential” because we aren’t having a philosophical discussion.

Also, the stuff you get at a baby show is used when? For the fetus still inside the woman? Good luck trying to get the onsie on it while Still in the womb.
Wow...Thanks for the enlightening discussion. I'd admit I'm in a bit of an echo chamber in my life when it comes to this topic, so I have always wondered how intelligent people on the other side of the discussion get around the fact that abortion is killing a baby. This did help me understand. It seems they just pretend that it isn't human. That it doesn't have a heart and a brain; thoughts and feelings. In the uterus, it's just a lump. One minute later once it's out...complete human. Interesting.
 

mdthornb

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Wow...Thanks for the enlightening discussion. I'd admit I'm in a bit of an echo chamber in my life when it comes to this topic, so I have always wondered how intelligent people on the other side of the discussion get around the fact that abortion is killing a baby. This did help me understand. It seems they just pretend that it isn't human. That it doesn't have a heart and a brain; thoughts and feelings. In the uterus, it's just a lump. One minute later once it's out...complete human. Interesting.

I mean once it is out clearly it cannot be killed based on bodily autonomity of the woman.

At what point do you consider it’s right to life more valuable than the woman’s right to bodily autonomy?
 

The Truffle Shuffle

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I mean once it is out clearly it cannot be killed based on bodily autonomity of the woman.

At what point do you consider it’s right to life more valuable than the woman’s right to bodily autonomy?
Conception, unless the conception is a product of rape or the fetus puts the woman in imminent danger. Essentially, I do not think it should be used as a form of birth control. As I have stated above, a couple has several ways of preventing an unwanted pregnancy if they show some responsibility.
 
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mdthornb

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Conception, unless the conception is a product of rape or the fetus puts the woman in imminent danger. Essentially, I do not think it should be used as a form of birth control. As I have stated above, a couple has several ways of preventing an unwanted pregnancy if they show some responsibility.

Why is conception the line for you?

In my opinion it should be when the child is born but a knowledge I’m on the extreme end of opinion. Also might consider when it is viable outside the womb if removing it won’t present too much danger to the mother. I am generally open on murky issu
 
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The Truffle Shuffle

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But why does the rights of the fetus over ride the rights of the woman at the point?
As I said before, the woman (and man) have several ways of preventing an unwanted pregnancy prior to conception (up to and including not having sex)...they chose to go forward. Now, these are the consequences. Like I said above, leftist don't want the "right to choose", they want the "right to zero responsibility".
 

TheGunner

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I guess the abortion ban does effect men. It allows them to control what a woman does legally. You are right. It is totally appropriate to tell a woman to stop whining because you are effected too. Nobody thinks about the burden placed on men now that they have to spend energy controlling a woman.
Yeah, men have substantially different views than women….different by about 5%…but “it’s THE MEN stopping abortion”. More like Republicans versus Democrats.

 

mdthornb

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Yeah, men have substantially different views than women….different by about 5%…but “it’s THE MEN stopping abortion”. More like Republicans versus Democrats.


He was talking about how men were impacted so I referenced men
 

mdthornb

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As I said before, the woman (and man) have several ways of preventing an unwanted pregnancy prior to conception (up to and including not having sex)...they chose to go forward. Now, these are the consequences. Like I said above, leftist don't want the "right to choose", they want the "right to zero responsibility".

Abortion is one of the ways.
 

mdthornb

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As I said before, the woman (and man) have several ways of preventing an unwanted pregnancy prior to conception (up to and including not having sex)...they chose to go forward. Now, these are the consequences. Like I said above, leftist don't want the "right to choose", they want the "right to zero responsibility".

And I think we can stop there. I see that baby as a human and killing is murder. You see it as something else, so it's okay. Vote your conscience and each state will decide for themselves.
Why do rights get conferred at conception and not to the eggs and sperm before conception? Seems arbitrary to me.
 

tearsforfears

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Really? It's when the ovum and sperm combine to become a zygote. It's where the reproductive matter of two individuals combine to become one unique being. Is that special enough for you? Stop playing dumb.
Again, he just babbles and overcomplicates things in his mind. He’ll never stop asking stupid questions.
 
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Why do rights get conferred at conception and not to the eggs and sperm before conception? Seems arbitrary to me.
@mdthornb . I feel that you are asking a valid question and it is perhaps the thing that has been talked around and not clearly demonstrated.

I will try to avoid writing a missive but it will take a bit if you honestly wish to know, then please follow.

We can agree that prior to fertilization/conception that the egg and the sperm ARE a product directly and indivisibly of the two parties involved.

Therefore, a scientific examination of the egg will show ONLY the genes of the mother. Likewise, a scientific examination of the sperm will show ONLY the genes of the father. We accept this because the science is clear and we do not want to be science deniers.

Once conception occurs there is now a third party involved. Another human being who has been placed in an environment that it cannot control by no choice of their own. Another unique individual with his or her own unique genome (identical twins aside.)

It is that moment that this human being is conceived that ITS life and rights commence. That child now has the rights of all humans to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

As to your previous question about balancing your unborn child’s rights with its mother that has been made clear throughout our history.

At times the rights of two people do come in conflict, so as a society we have always tried to base the decision on WHOSE rights supersede the other to be on who has the most to lose.

Abortion affects mother, father, and child. In most cases the CHILD is the only one that will potentially lose their life and therefore these little boys and girls rights supersede the parents.



This is getting long but one more thing.

It was asked (not remembering by whom) about the “hard cases.” The three cases that are on a different level where the consequences to the mother becomes POTENTIALLY as great as the innocent unborn child.

The best I could find was from the results of the Florida 2021 abortion gestational records.

In 2021 Florida performed 79,817 total abortions. State law requires that the reason for the abortion is recorded.

I found four potential hard cases (but only agree that three are true hard cases.)

The actual largest number was due to risk of death of the mother. 757 of the nearly 80k abortions were due to the mother’s life.

That accounts for 95/100th of a percent (0.95%).

The second largest was due to health of the unborn child with 119 cases.

Rape was third with 118 cases.

Both account for around 15/100th% (0.15%).

And finally incest was performed 8 times total out of nearly 80k abortions.

I believe that most pro-lifers are willing to look at these hard cases that total, in 2021 Florida, to 1002 total cases or 1.25%.

BTW, 59,257 of the reasons were elective (form of birth control) procedures. That is the reason for 74.24% or nearly 3 in 4 abortions. An additional 21.21% were due to SOCIAL or ECONOMIC reasons. These are things that can and should be worked on to make mother’s, father’s, and child’s lives better without killing one of them.

These closely match other numbers I have seen from pro-life, pro-abortion, and independent sources but these had actual numbers and reasons for 100% of the abortions.
 
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BuilderBob6

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I know this will fall on deaf ears, but the decision doesn't ban abortions (as has been stated a thousand times). You'll still be able to kill as many babies as you want in certain states.
I don't want to kill babies. I also don't want the government dictating to it's citizens what they can do with their body.

I'm for a compromise, unlike both parties.

My post was referring to this.

Pretty clearly a mistake. Maybe Freudian.
 
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The Truffle Shuffle

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I don't want to kill babies. I also don't want the government dictating to it's citizens what they can do with their body.

I'm for a compromise, unlike both parties.

My post was referring to this.


Pretty clearly a mistake. Maybe Freudian.
Well, since a black woman is about 5 times more likely to get an abortion than a white woman, it would seem to be a historic victory for black life.
 
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