Aaron Wheeler showing all of his skills (May 2018)

[northside100]

I’m comparing Vince from his freshman year to Aaron next season. I should have been more clear in my post.

That’s ok, I understood what you meant. My point was that Vince was a very good player for four years and one of the best players in the conference as a senior. If Wheeler is better than that then he’s a heck of a player. I hope you’re right and he is.

 

[BoilerIron]

How unlikely?

You keep asserting that as if it's accepted fact, yet you haven't offered any evidence.

all we know is, there are some grad transfers. There are also those elite athletes who go pro early. We don't know how many redshirt FR stay for their full eligibility.

I'm ignorant on the issue. Can you enlighten with verifiable data?

As others have pointed out, we haven't had a 5 year player at Purdue under Painter, right? (Not including grad transfers like Octeus)

 

[northside100]

As others have pointed out, we haven't had a 5 year player at Purdue under Painter, right? (Not including grad transfers like Octeus)

Does that mean that there’s no data to support or refute the assertion that it’s likely that anyone who is playing significant minutes stays for five years going forward?

I can’t think of any examples of players who redshirted and then ended up getting major playing time post redshirt. I would agree that any player not logging significant minutes after their first couple of years has a real chance of transferring whether they redshirted or not.

Until last year I’m not sure that Matt has had the horses to be able to redshirt anyone unless they were a major development project.

 

[ChoiceBeef]

I can’t think of any examples of players who redshirted and then ended up getting major playing time post redshirt.

If you are talking Purdue then I would have to do some research.

If you are taking in general look no further than the NCAA champions. DiVincenzo and Bridges both red shirts.

Oh and they are leaving before their 5th year

 

[Purdue85]

Does that mean that there’s no data to support or refute the assertion that it’s likely that anyone who is playing significant minutes stays for five years going forward?

I can’t think of any examples of players who redshirted and then ended up getting major playing time post redshirt. I would agree that any player not logging significant minutes after their first couple of years has a real chance of transferring whether they redshirted or not.

Until last year I’m not sure that Matt has had the horses to be able to redshirt anyone unless they were a major development project.

"Under Painter" narrows the field too much, and maybe intentionally so. It stacks the deck.

Has Painter ever had the combination of a player with Wheeler's skills, coming into a senior-heavy program, a program loaded on the front line?

 

[SCBoiler1]

Last fall there was hope that Wheeler had been overlooked by the scouting services, his stock was "on the rise" and Purdue had gotten a steal. Some of us have seen some videos, read some articles and watched him play some reserve minutes in the World Games. We knew he was unranked but he had grown, was athletic and it had been reported he could hit the three. When he was red shirted I was disappointed.

Most guys his size (6'9"),play the 4 position and we actually ended up being pretty thin at the 4 last year. Painter knew JT was hurt and I think he knew Ewing wasn't going to work out pretty early on. That left us with Vince at the 4 and Grady as his backup. Last year was supposed to be a big year for Purdue basketball and it appears Painter felt that playing Wheeler wasn't going to incrementally help our chances of winning. FYI, I'm in the camp that believes Painter knows what his players can do better than I do.

What I've noted above is all I know about Aaron Wheeler's game and I would assume that's all the insight most people on this board have.

So, what's my point?. We don't know if he'll be this freakish 6'9", high flyer who can shoot the three like we all hope or whether he'll be competing for minutes with the likes of Williams, Boudreaux, Cline and Eiffort.

If I where to guess right now, I would say he'll probably be competing for minutes but
I guess we'll know more in November!

 

[SCBoiler1]

"Under Painter" narrows the field too much, and maybe intentionally so. It stacks the deck.

Has Painter ever had the combination of a player with Wheeler's skills, coming into a senior-heavy program, a program loaded on the front line?

Just curious, on what are you basing your assessment of his "combination of skills"?

 

[Purdue85]

Just curious, on what are you basing your assessment of his "combination of skills"?

The multiple articles, videos, etc.

 

[northside100]

If you are talking Purdue then I would have to do some research.

If you are taking in general look no further than the NCAA champions. DiVincenzo and Bridges both red shirts.

Oh and they are leaving before their 5th year

I was talking about Purdue under Painter, but if you want to use Nova as an example I hope you’re right, as that would be a great positive indicator as to the direction Purdue is headed. If you have the ability to redshirt future NBA players your roster is pretty stacked.

 

[northside100]

"Under Painter" narrows the field too much, and maybe intentionally so. It stacks the deck.

Has Painter ever had the combination of a player with Wheeler's skills, coming into a senior-heavy program, a program loaded on the front line?

Yes, intentionally, but not to try to win an argument, to point out that this looks to me to be a new development under Painter, i.e. the ability to redshirt players not purely because they were limited in some way, but because the value of a potential fifth year exceeded the value of limited minutes on a veteran team.

My arguement is that I have not seen relevant data that suggests that redshirting a player who subsequently plays a significant role makes it unlikely that the player will play four years.

 

[Purdue85]

I was talking about Purdue under Painter, but if you want to use Nova as an example I hope you’re right, as that would be a great positive indicator as to the direction Purdue is headed. If you have the ability to redshirt future NBA players your roster is pretty stacked.

If memory serves, Nova had SIX redshirts on their roster this past year. There comes a point that the discussion of staying for 5 years becomes irrelevant, and the impact it has on your program becomes the issue.

 

[Purdue85]

Yes, intentionally, but not to try to win an argument, to point out that this looks to me to be a new development under Painter, i.e. the ability to redshirt players not purely because they were limited in some way, but because the value of a potential fifth year exceeded the value of limited minutes on a veteran team.

My arguement is that I have not seen relevant data that suggests that redshirting a player who subsequently plays a significant role makes it unlikely that the player will play four years.

gotcha. Then there's no reason to look solely at Painter's experience with redshirting players.

It's not just the hope of having that player for a 5th year. Redshirting accomplishes many things, not just preserving a 5th year of eligibility.

 

[northside100]

gotcha. Then there's no reason to look solely at Painter's experience with redshirting players.

It's not just the hope of having that player for a 5th year. Redshirting accomplishes many things, not just preserving a 5th year of eligibility.

Help me understand that statement. What are the benefits you see beyond preserving a fifth year of eligibility? Using Wheeler as an example, if preserving a fifth year wasn’t the goal, what could they not have done by not redshirting him and giving him garbage minutes or a few spot minutes in plane of Grady or JT?

I get that not playing a ton of minutes your first year could give you more time for studies and physical development, but that could occur whether or not you’re getting a few minutes a game off the end of the bench.

 

[ChoiceBeef]

I was talking about Purdue under Painter, but if you want to use Nova as an example I hope you’re right, as that would be a great positive indicator as to the direction Purdue is headed. If you have the ability to redshirt future NBA players your roster is pretty stacked.

Only Purdue redshirt I can think of recently is Calasan.

 

[BoilerIron]

gotcha. Then there's no reason to look solely at Painter's experience with redshirting players.

It's not just the hope of having that player for a 5th year. Redshirting accomplishes many things, not just preserving a 5th year of eligibility.

What does it accomplish other than retaining a year of eligibility? He would have the same development whether he was redshirted or not if that's going to be your argument.

 

[proudopete]

What does it accomplish other than retaining a year of eligibility? He would have the same development whether he was redshirted or not if that's going to be your argument.

Perhaps he needed to adjust to college and the demands it places on student athletes? There are many reasons to redshirt other than saving a year of eligibility.

 

[BoilerIron]

Perhaps he needed to adjust to college and the demands it places on student athletes? There are many reasons to redshirt other than saving a year of eligibility.

So did he attend less team activities than the players on the active roster? If not, how does a redshirt help him adjust more to college than being on the regular roster? Let's hear some of these "many reasons" to redshirt?

 

[02Boilermaker]

Yes, a big part of the decision to RS is to preserve the year of eligibility. Yes, once that RS decision is made, the player is on a different developmental/workout program than he would be as a non-RS. https://www.jconline.com/story/spor...fanovic-see-redshirt-opportunities/992874001/

-"When you're going against Dakota Mathias and Vincent Edwards to get minutes, if you do get some in those spots, you're just going to get minimal minutes," Painter said. "Explaining that to him and talking to him about that before the season has nothing to do with him. It has to do with the guys that are there — the guys that have been there, the guys that are productive. Then it's about his future, making the best decisions. If he would have stayed (active) he would have played a little bit or none at all. So why not redshirt and have that year?"

-"Purdue's coaches put Wheeler and Stefanovic through extra workouts on game days. They both have strength and conditioning and individual skills plans beyond what the rest of the team carries during the season."

 

[Mgkcbb]

Yes, a big part of the decision to RS is to preserve the year of eligibility. Yes, once that RS decision is made, the player is on a different developmental/workout program than he would be as a non-RS. https://www.jconline.com/story/spor...fanovic-see-redshirt-opportunities/992874001/

-"When you're going against Dakota Mathias and Vincent Edwards to get minutes, if you do get some in those spots, you're just going to get minimal minutes," Painter said. "Explaining that to him and talking to him about that before the season has nothing to do with him. It has to do with the guys that are there — the guys that have been there, the guys that are productive. Then it's about his future, making the best decisions. If he would have stayed (active) he would have played a little bit or none at all. So why not redshirt and have that year?"

-"Purdue's coaches put Wheeler and Stefanovic through extra workouts on game days. They both have strength and conditioning and individual skills plans beyond what the rest of the team carries during the season."

On the last paragraph:
Have to imagine he was able to bulk up more than he would have normally been able to playing games and not redshirting. Bulking up and putting weight on was one of the needs for him so I'd imagine that definitely served a purpose.

Judging by the hype he keeps receiving from players and coaches within the program and also by the Video linked, it appears he has definitely put in skill work to improve his game.

 

[Purdue85]

Help me understand that statement. What are the benefits you see beyond preserving a fifth year of eligibility? Using Wheeler as an example, if preserving a fifth year wasn’t the goal, what could they not have done by not redshirting him and giving him garbage minutes or a few spot minutes in plane of Grady or JT?

I get that not playing a ton of minutes your first year could give you more time for studies and physical development, but that could occur whether or not you’re getting a few minutes a game off the end of the bench.

That's certainly a theory. For many athletes there's very little benefit to playing mop up minutes. That's some of the worst basketball.

Look, I get it: there's a certain faction that isn't ever going to let go of the criticism when it comes to Painter's decisions. Especially as it relates to the decision to RS Wheeler, if he turns out to be the type of player it looks like he could become. And, there are others that are never going to admit that Wheeler could be a really skilled player.

So, what are some of the reasons for a RS year? Off the top of my head:

• adjustment to college; balancing demands of a S/A
• physical development
• adjusting to the level of play at the college level
• development of basketball skills
• a glut at a player's position
• ...more?

 

[Purdue85]

So did he attend less team activities than the players on the active roster? If not, how does a redshirt help him adjust more to college than being on the regular roster? Let's hear some of these "many reasons" to redshirt?

Dude, why so abrasive on this issue?

I don't get it, and judging by your posts I'm not sure I want to.

 

[BoilerIron]

Dude, why so abrasive on this issue?

I don't get it, and judging by your posts I'm not sure I want to.

Not at all abrasive on the issue. I just saw multiple people mentioning there being multiple benefits to redshirting and wanted someone to provide those other benefits. You provided some of those above.

 

[northside100]

That's certainly a theory. For many athletes there's very little benefit to playing mop up minutes. That's some of the worst basketball.

Look, I get it: there's a certain faction that isn't ever going to let go of the criticism when it comes to Painter's decisions. Especially as it relates to the decision to RS Wheeler, if he turns out to be the type of player it looks like he could become. And, there are others that are never going to admit that Wheeler could be a really skilled player.

So, what are some of the reasons for a RS year? Off the top of my head:

• adjustment to college; balancing demands of a S/A
• physical development
• adjusting to the level of play at the college level
• development of basketball skills
• a glut at a player's position
• ...more?

I have zero criticism of Painter in this situation. Could Wheeler become a really skilled player? I hope so, we’ll know a lot more in the next few months. I think the level of expectations that some folks have for him is unfair, but who knows, maybe he’ll live up to them.

I’ll let it go as I’m fairly certain there’s not a real arguement, but I still don’t follow any of the benefits you gave for redshirting as relating to anything other than the additional year of eligibility. Are they reasons why you might redshirt? Sure, but the benefit of the redshirt remains the fifth year, otherwise you could focus on any of the other things without redshirting.

 

[hoosierdog1]

Eifert and Taylor played some real minutes. Luce is a human victory cigar

Human victory cigar I like that! Never heard that before!!

 

[SCBoiler1]

The multiple articles, videos, etc.

I hope your assessments right, but the video in this thread tells me two things. He can dunk and make a three. Most guys 6'9" can dunk and almost any guy who plays college basketball can make a three. Te key is at what percentage. Can't tell from the video.

That's certainly a theory. For many athletes there's very little benefit to playing mop up minutes. That's some of the worst basketball.

Look, I get it: there's a certain faction that isn't ever going to let go of the criticism when it comes to Painter's decisions. Especially as it relates to the decision to RS Wheeler, if he turns out to be the type of player it looks like he could become. And, there are others that are never going to admit that Wheeler could be a really skilled player.

So, what are some of the reasons for a RS year? Off the top of my head:

• adjustment to college; balancing demands of a S/A
• physical development
• adjusting to the level of play at the college level
• development of basketball skills
• a glut at a player's position
• ...more?

No one is dissing Painter. The point is the redshirt indicates that Painter didn't believe he was ready to contribute last year and as a result this may give us some insight into what to expect this year. Surely not definitive but could tell us something. Bottom line is that if he was showing himself as a special talent last year he would have played.

 

[Purdue85]

I have zero criticism of Painter in this situation. Could Wheeler become a really skilled player? I hope so, we’ll know a lot more in the next few months. I think the level of expectations that some folks have for him is unfair, but who knows, maybe he’ll live up to them.

I’ll let it go as I’m fairly certain there’s not a real arguement, but I still don’t follow any of the benefits you gave for redshirting as relating to anything other than the additional year of eligibility. Are they reasons why you might redshirt? Sure, but the benefit of the redshirt remains the fifth year, otherwise you could focus on any of the other things without redshirting.

The purpose of the RS would be those cited, but gaining a 5th year wouldn't be the reason for the RS, it would be an additional benefit.

Regardless, Villanova has a model that's reaping tremendous rewards, and they're certainly not having numerous players RS because the players aren't talented. Nor are they doing it to get a 5th year of eligibilty.

 

[Purdue85]

I hope your assessments right, but the video in this thread tells me two things. He can dunk and make a three. Most guys 6'9" can dunk and almost any guy who plays college basketball can make a three. Te key is at what percentage. Can't tell from the video.

No one is dissing Painter. The point is the redshirt indicates that Painter didn't believe he was ready to contribute last year and as a result this may give us some insight into what to expect this year. Surely not definitive but could tell us something. Bottom line is that if he was showing himself as a special talent last year he would have played.

Not to pick at your words, but a few things.
1. I'm not making an assessment. I'm simply looking at tools that have been displayed and reported, and I see a reason for optimism. (Very good outside shot, 6'9" frame, athletic/able to run the floor, appears able to handle the ball, and ~40" vertical.)
2. I'm assuming you've not been around the forum on this topic previously, but, yes, Painter has taken significant criticism over the RS of Wheeler.
3. Not seeing meaningful PT with that highly talented class does not translate to "not ready to contribute".

I'll state it again: I have no idea what contribution Wheeler will make, but I find it perplexing how people wouldn't look at his tools and see the potential for a very talented player. Taking a RS year doesn't mean the kid will suck, nor does mean he won't have an impact. To me, that's akin to letting someone else think/evaluate for you.

 

[ChoiceBeef]

The point is the redshirt indicates that Painter didn't believe he was ready to contribute last year and as a result this may give us some insight into what to expect this year.

Yes and it also helps to smooth out classes.

 

[northside100]

The purpose of the RS would be those cited, but gaining a 5th year wouldn't be the reason for the RS, it would be an additional benefit.

Regardless, Villanova has a model that's reaping tremendous rewards, and they're certainly not having numerous players RS because the players aren't talented. Nor are they doing it to get a 5th year of eligibilty.

I said I’d let this go and I really should, but I have to ask, do you know how a redshirt works? I’m not asking to pick a fight, but literally the only reason Villanova or anyone else redshirts a player is to gain a fifth year of eligibility. The fact that the players may not actually stay for five years is irrelevant. If they didn’t care about that fifth year they could still have the player focus on academics, workouts, etc but would allow them to play mop up minutes and keep them available in case of injury.

 

[mathboy]

I said I’d let this go and I really should, but I have to ask, do you know how a redshirt works? I’m not asking to pick a fight, but literally the only reason Villanova or anyone else redshirts a player is to gain a fifth year of eligibility. The fact that the players may not actually stay for five years is irrelevant. If they didn’t care about that fifth year they could still have the player focus on academics, workouts, etc but would allow them to play mop up minutes and keep them available in case of injury.

I am not sure I would agree that " literally the only reason Villanova or anyone else redshirts a player is to gain a fifth year of eligibility". I think that is the least of the reasons so well described in Purdue85's post.

 

[northside100]

I am not sure I would agree that " literally the only reason Villanova or anyone else redshirts a player is to gain a fifth year of eligibility". I think that is the least of the reasons so well described in Purdue85's post.

Why redshirt them then? Please explain to me why you can’t do all of those things without redshirting a player?

 

[SCBoiler1]

Yes and it also helps to smooth out classes.

Enlighten me. How? The guy still gets a scholarship his freshman year and as I mentioned before its unusual for a red shirt to stay at Purdue five years. Nobody has come up with one yet. Someone said Calasan but he was a JUCO transfer so he didn't stay 5 years. Lets try this list off the top of my head: Weatherford, Smotherman, Marcius, Taylor, Anthony Johnson, Donnie Hail. So how does it smooth out classes?

 

[northside100]

Enlighten me. How? The guy still gets a scholarship his freshman year and as I mentioned before its unusual for a red shirt to stay at Purdue five years. Nobody has come up with one yet. Someone said Calasan but he was a JUCO transfer so he didn't stay 5 years. Lets try this list off the top of my head: Weatherford, Smotherman, Marcius, Taylor, Anthony Johnson, Donnie Hail. So how does it smooth out classes?

I don’t disagree with you, but what is the common factor among all the players you listed?

 

[ChoiceBeef]

Enlighten me. How? The guy still gets a scholarship his freshman year and as I mentioned before its unusual for a red shirt to stay at Purdue five years. Nobody has come up with one yet. Someone said Calasan but he was a JUCO transfer so he didn't stay 5 years. Lets try this list off the top of my head: Weatherford, Smotherman, Marcius, Taylor, Anthony Johnson, Donnie Hail. So how does it smooth out classes?

Well part of the reason he took a redshirt was because there weren’t minutes. So now we go from having a glut last year to having 2 guys who play the 2-4 that will be here for at least 2 years (IMO).

Not saying I truly understand it but have heard that is why coaches redshirt because classes are unbalanced. You had Carsen as an only person in his class but before that was a 3 person class. The class after was 4 if you count Ewing.

Again just stating what I have heard and read.

 

[Purdue85]

I said I’d let this go and I really should, but I have to ask, do you know how a redshirt works? I’m not asking to pick a fight, but literally the only reason Villanova or anyone else redshirts a player is to gain a fifth year of eligibility. The fact that the players may not actually stay for five years is irrelevant. If they didn’t care about that fifth year they could still have the player focus on academics, workouts, etc but would allow them to play mop up minutes and keep them available in case of injury.

Look, there's nothing to let go, IMHO. We're having a civil back-and-forth, and it's all good. (Again, IMHO.)

yes, of course I know how redshirts work.

I also know the criticism on this forum has been that Wheeler will never see that 5th year of eligibility.

Well, the same works for Villanova, but I think most rational people would agree that it's working out pretty well for them, all things considered! And what you wrote simply isn't true: these aren't players that are expected to stay for their full eligibility. So, again, why would they do it if the players aren't staying? Clearly, there are reasons other than having 5 years to play 4.

I only scanned their recruiting classes over the past 4-5 years, but it seemed to me that those classes were very similar to ours: a handful of 3-star and 4-star players, with a couple of recent 5-stars. So, it would seem that the regular crowd clamoring for better classes and more tournament success would be all over this strategy.

 

[Purdue85]

I have zero criticism of Painter in this situation. Could Wheeler become a really skilled player? I hope so, we’ll know a lot more in the next few months. I think the level of expectations that some folks have for him is unfair, but who knows, maybe he’ll live up to them.

I’ll let it go as I’m fairly certain there’s not a real arguement, but I still don’t follow any of the benefits you gave for redshirting as relating to anything other than the additional year of eligibility. Are they reasons why you might redshirt? Sure, but the benefit of the redshirt remains the fifth year, otherwise you could focus on any of the other things without redshirting.

I don't have any "expectations". The only expectations I have are for him to use his skills and maximize his ability.

There's nothing at all "unfair" there.

 

[BoilerIron]

Look, there's nothing to let go, IMHO. We're having a civil back-and-forth, and it's all good. (Again, IMHO.)

yes, of course I know how redshirts work.

I also know the criticism on this forum has been that Wheeler will never see that 5th year of eligibility.

Well, the same works for Villanova, but I think most rational people would agree that it's working out pretty well for them, all things considered! And what you wrote simply isn't true: these aren't players that are expected to stay for their full eligibility. So, again, why would they do it if the players aren't staying? Clearly, there are reasons other than having 5 years to play 4.

I only scanned their recruiting classes over the past 4-5 years, but it seemed to me that those classes were very similar to ours: a handful of 3-star and 4-star players, with a couple of recent 5-stars. So, it would seem that the regular crowd clamoring for better classes and more tournament success would be all over this strategy.

The big difference in their strategy and ours is that they get 5* talent to go along with their project players. Do they win the championship without out their 5* PG (POY)?

 

[mathboy]

Why redshirt them then? Please explain to me why you can’t do all of those things without redshirting a player?

Let me help... Quoting 85:

So, what are some of the reasons for a RS year? Off the top of my head:

• adjustment to college; balancing demands of a S/A
• physical development
• adjusting to the level of play at the college level
• development of basketball skills
• a glut at a player's position

All of these are pretty good reasons to redshirt. Now specifically I would guess the following.
- Sasha was shirted because of a glut at his position.
- Wheeler was shirted because we had H & H plus Vince which might not seem like a glut, but these guys would play all the possible critical minutes. This and maybe he was not physically ready. We are going to need to wait to see what we have in Wheeler. I'm patient...

Northside, these are just my general observations. I don't have any inside information.

 

[northside100]

Let me help... Quoting 85:

So, what are some of the reasons for a RS year? Off the top of my head:

• adjustment to college; balancing demands of a S/A
• physical development
• adjusting to the level of play at the college level
• development of basketball skills
• a glut at a player's position

All of these are pretty good reasons to redshirt. Now specifically I would guess the following.
- Sasha was shirted because of a glut at his position.
- Wheeler was shirted because we had H & H plus Vince which might not seem like a glut, but these guys would play all the possible critical minutes. This and maybe he was not physically ready. We are going to need to wait to see what we have in Wheeler. I'm patient...

Northside, these are just my general observations. I don't have any inside information.

I’ll ask again. If the important thing is not the option for a fifth year, why are these reasons to redshirt? Why not treat the player the exact same way you would if they were redshirting so that they can enjoy all the benefits you listed, but allow them to get game experience when there is a big lead? There were plenty of garbage minutes available last year.

 

[northside100]

I don't have any "expectations". The only expectations I have are for him to use his skills and maximize his ability.

There's nothing at all "unfair" there.

Wasn’t specifically targeting you there 85. There are plenty of folks making statements ranging from him leaving early for the NBA to being an updgrade over Vince that in my mind are unfair expectations.