Need to play together. I'm tired of this nonsense. These guys need 30mpg. We can't guard anyone anyway.
Zach and Tre
- Thread starter TopSecretBoiler
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He’s a better ball handler than a few of them
I dont think 30 a piece is realistic. But seeing how they are 2 or 3 best players id like to figure out how to get them to 22-25 mins a piece.
I've been saying I don't understand why we don't have any sort of situational lineups where are best 5 are on the floor in a close game....
And just what do we do when both are in foul trouble? Which is guaranteed to happen.
But hey, call in to the Painter show and suggest it.
Last 5 mins or so last night, both should have been on the floor. Tre is best passer and rebounder on the team, both attributes were needed down the stretch.
If they do, we have Furst to go play the 5
I completely agree that they should see SOME time on the floor together
While I'm on board with them playing together, I recall Painter saying he tried it in practice and it was a disaster. What that means I have no idea ...So that is likely why we haven't seen it.
But that doesn't mean we won't. Tre is getting much quicker with his hands so it may be one of those things we work on until the tourney then run with it and surprise teams and make us even harder to defend.
We have to do the little things first thing gh IMO. Like rebound and make smart decisions and play hard
Sooo, we should play the guys who are more often than not, rebounding, playing hard, and making smart decisions … IMO that’s Edey, Tre, Gillis, Morton, and probably IT (faults withstanding)
Ivey needs to play smarter (he’s only short term player for us and he limits our ceiling with his poor defense despite his ability to score) before he plays 30+ minutes per game again.
I’m old school, so take it as you want. I’ve seen the best at Purdue, IU and other programs where the coach sat their best player to send a clear message — it worked. What’s Ivey going to do? Transfer if he gets sat out for most of a game??? Nah, he has to play to get drafted
It is tough with respect to Ivey for sure...he can be a difference maker, especially at the offensive end where Purdue has struggled thus far in conference games, but, there are times where he is hurting Purdue as much as he is helping them.
I don't know what happens if his minutes go down, as, he is out of control already at times and if his minutes decrease, it just leads to him trying to do even more in even fewer minutes potentially, and, that is not good in any way.
Purdue just seemed off and out of sorts almost from the outset last night.
Purdue has struggled when they went away from Edey in the starting lineup...I have no idea why, but, it has been the case. Williams has not been as effective individually, and, Purdue has not been as effective on the whole...like say, no real idea why, but, it just seems to be the case.
By this point, some things should have been figured out with respect to rotations and guys who play well together, but, last night there was no evidence of that. There were some odd rotations and combinations last night.
Purdue made 7 total baskets in the first 20 minutes, only 3 of them inside the arc...on a team where they are playing through the post and with two dominant post players, that is almost impossible to believe.
This team had issues last year, especially in physical games...that has definitely been the case thus far...I admit that I ignored what should have been some red flags, but, right now, there are some glaring concerns...and, one of those is that Ivey is such a liability at the defensive end that it does not matter what he provides at the other end, and, it is compounded if he is playing out of control at the offensive end.
I made reference to a particular play late in the game where it seemed really clear that Ivey was the culprit with respect to who had messed it up, and, there was no consequence of such...and, if he messed it up as bad as it appeared, he absolutely should have been removed immediately, as, it was either ignorance at a level that cannot be tolerated, or, just arrogance that cannot be tolerated...either way, he should have been removed as soon as it happened.
Tre and Edey need to play 5-10
Minutes a night together going forward, I’m sorry, seeing Hunter in at the end of the game and a All American type in Williams sitting was irritating, these guys can figure it out to play together at certain points in the game.
Minutes a night together going forward, I’m sorry, seeing Hunter in at the end of the game and a All American type in Williams sitting was irritating, these guys can figure it out to play together at certain points in the game.
I wouldn’t mind seeing Trevion get minutes at the 4 now. He seems to have improved ball handling this season, and his length more than makes up for some speed in short situations. Why not use him some when the opposing 4 isn’t a 3-point threat? At that point, his rebounding and all-around game should more than make up for any remaining defensive liabilities against quicker opponents. Let them take those 20’ 2-point jumpers if that’s what it costs.
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Imagine Williams passing to Edey? That would be sweet. The spacing and cutting would not be there though like with Furst and Gillis. Maybe Edey sends it out to Tre from the post and then he makes a back down. Tre would need to be the one doing the cutting and keeping people honest with some jumpers. Maybe it would open it up for the 3 other shooters if everyone is clogged in the middle trying to guard our 2 bigs? This would all have to be when we are clear of foul trouble. I liked that Gillis was connecting on 3s. He didn’t play much in the second maybe due to D and boards?
Painter said he tried it and it didn't work. So the novelty everyone sees with Tre/Zach being on the court together is likely never going to happen unless whatever didn't work improves.
Just because some internet posters that have never coached a B1G level game think it's the right thing, doesn't mean it is. Painter knows this team better than anyone on here and he'll decide if or when Tre/Zach happens.
Just because some internet posters that have never coached a B1G level game think it's the right thing, doesn't mean it is. Painter knows this team better than anyone on here and he'll decide if or when Tre/Zach happens.
Very astute observation. Which really shouldn't be the case but it all lines up.
Umh, Edey started against Iowa, Rutgers and our overtime win against NC State. Williams started his first game against Butler (who we destroyed) and the first game that was close with Williams starting was against Wisconsin. I don't think that's the problem.
By the way you mentioned potential foul trouble. Two things here. Edey and Williams are both averaging two fouls per game. Even if either got an early foul or two with them playing together you could just switch back to them sharing time. Not an issue.
Except that it is. as fast as calls are often made against bigs, ours especially, both Tre and Zach could get 2 fouls each quickly in the first half and have to sit the majority or one plays and gets a 3rd and it cascades downward from there.
I know, it ruins the novelty, but it's a fact and movie we see all the time. Plus if it was a viable solution, Painter would be doing it already. I mean he literally said he has tried it already at least in practice and it didn't go well. If it didn't go well in just a practice, it would be worse in action.
Disagree that just because it didn’t work in practice that it wouldn’t work in the right game situation. Why? We don’t play defense against our offense in real games. And to make the point, our offense is much different than most other offenses. The REAL question is how do we do in rotations as a result of a high pick and roll if they’re both on the floor? For me personally, I would rather take the chance that our rotations aren’t as quick as on O we create big time match up issues for the opposition (more so than whatever issue we may have on D, after all we are talking about two of the most dominant big men in all college basketball not Matt Haarms and Isaac Haas)
Question for all you coaches/ex coaches out there.
As the season progresses, it's becoming more obvious there is a huge drop off in talent between Williams and whoever is playing the 4. Would it ever be prudent for Painter to change or adjust his system both defensively and offensively to accommodate the two bigs playing together or does a coach stick with their system no matter the talent?
Painter did play Biggie at the 4 a few years back and while Biggie was a better 3 point shooter, IMO Williams has shown better ball skills and I would almost say he seems as comfortable as Biggie playing out on the floor this year. I keep going back to the Villanova game where Purdue was going offense defense with the bigs because Villanova was playing without a center. I actually thought Trevion did a good job guarding in space that game.
As the season progresses, it's becoming more obvious there is a huge drop off in talent between Williams and whoever is playing the 4. Would it ever be prudent for Painter to change or adjust his system both defensively and offensively to accommodate the two bigs playing together or does a coach stick with their system no matter the talent?
Painter did play Biggie at the 4 a few years back and while Biggie was a better 3 point shooter, IMO Williams has shown better ball skills and I would almost say he seems as comfortable as Biggie playing out on the floor this year. I keep going back to the Villanova game where Purdue was going offense defense with the bigs because Villanova was playing without a center. I actually thought Trevion did a good job guarding in space that game.
That's a good point. There are a lot of Big Ten teams that have really poor play at center and their 4s are nothing special. Take Wisconsin. Their six big men who played against us have made 12 three pointers combined all year. Do we really think Williams couldn't guard their starting forward Tyler Wahl (who hasn't made a three this year) or forward Carter Gilmore that played 19 minutes and is averaging 1.3 points per game?
And for those that say what about the high ball screen.... Do we really think Davis and Davison would have scored a lot more than 52 points if Williams would have been on the court 7 or 8 more minutes?
I don't think people are saying start both of them. They are suggesting you may be able to use it situationally.
By the way Painter would take one of them out as soon as they got their first foul. He already does this if the foul is really early in the half.
Well so far, Painter disagrees or we would see it. And I am certainly going to take his judgment over any wannabe forum coach.
It all could change, but so far not so much.
I'll put it a different way. Wisconsin's two best players played 76 minutes. Ours played 40.
So why are you on the forum? There are many fans on this site and Facebook sites all asking the same question after the latest loss
Then why haven't you called in and asked Painter the question? It's a simple solution for you.
Our offense isn’t the problem. We are a top 5 offense.
I accept that … just trying to get my head around not having our best players playing more
Has that ever gone well? I believe that all of the questions he has already taken on same has him even more dug in on his decision.
I thought the change was made after Rutgers, but, you are right...regardless, Williams has not been as good/dominant in the new role (whereas Edey has been better arguably).
I don't think it is "the problem" either, just know that Purdue has not been as good seemingly with the change...yet, to your point, they were struggling ahead of it as well.
I don't think there is "a problem" though either...there are several unfortunately...some of which I don't know can be fixed or resolved.
As to the latter point (fouls), I don't like the predetermined automatic substitutions at the first TV timeout...doing it just for the sake of doing it seems not just arbitrary, but, there is no consideration as to what is/is not working.
On paper, yes...but, you would never have known it and the numbers don't back it up I would guess in either of the losses...and, in some of the other games where Purdue has struggled as well. I would be curious what the numbers showed in the losses...and in the NC St. game, and, even in the Iowa win.
That said, I don't think the offense is the real problem...but, Purdue was anything but good offensively against Wisconsin the other night in the first half, or, down the stretch when it needed baskets.
71 points per game in 3 conference games. 66 in regulation against NC State and 77 against Butler. So in our last 5 games against quality opponents we've averaged 71.4 points per game in regulation. That number would put us around 200th in the country in scoring.
Offense wasn't a problem but it is becoming one.
THAT/THOSE are the numbers that I was looking for (but, admittedly did not bother to take the time to look up)...but, your post above and this one here are exactly what I had expected...so, VERY much to your point..."offense note being the problem" is VERY misleading, as, it has been/is indeed a problem, particularly in conference play (and, more so in that it is not as if Purdue has played the best teams in conference play). In hindsight, it is really easy to see Purdue at 0-3 in conference play had Murray been healthy and played for Iowa.
I listened to Seth Greenberg today talk at length about the importance of having a PG that can dribble penetrate, and, how it puts pressure on the defense and creates open shots around the court...THAT is something that Purdue only has when Ivey has the ball in his hands (which can be a double-edged sword in and of itself), but, it is something sorely missing with Purdue with either Isaiah or Hunter.
Purdue's offensive numbers are crazy inflated seemingly against some bad opponents that it has played...teams that it is just flat better than across the floor and at pretty much every position, but, save the nice wins against what had been a pretty lousy Villanova team and a less than stellar UNC team, Purdue has struggled at that end against the other better opponents that it has played (other than FSU...and, jury is still out there).
It is easy to just look at some numbers and stats and state that "offense is not the problem" and, maybe more so in that we all know that defense IS a problem...but, I am not convinced that both are not actually a bit of problem.
Not going to happen, waste of energy. Focus on ways to improve team defense, improving individual defense starting with your most athletic player, figuring out how to better handle pressure( full and half court) getting shooters off early, getting bigs to finish thru uncalled fouls, getting Ivey more fundamentally sound. Sure there is more on Painters list. Playing his bigs together for more than a minute isn’t one of them.
You are right...and I agree with pretty much all that you said.
The only caveat I have or would add is that Painter (and any number of other coaches for that matter) have gone to great lengths to talk about the need to have your best players on the floor when it matters at the end...and, others have made the point here already...having Williams on the bench while others were on the floor during crunch time flies directly in the face of that.
I have no idea what it was that apparently did not work when they tried to do this in practice, but, I know that having Williams (or Edey) on the bench while having someone else who has virtually no chance to impact the outcome in a positive fashion just does not make sense if the reason is merely that they play the same position.
Purdue has lost two games. I’m not sure the problems are as big as some want them to be. Could we have better players than IT and Hunter? Sure, I guess so but we don’t and the solution must come from the players we have. IT was hurt and hasn’t been the same since. Hopefully he can get back to shooting at the clip he had been shooting as he will get open looks. I have no issue with Hunter sitting more either.
Purdue just played a game where everything that could do wrong, did. However did you look at the record, it’s just as likely we go in a run than falling off a cliff. We have the pieces to be very good and there is still a chance for this team to do things no other team in Purdue’s history has. I’m sure Painter will work on the problem areas such as defending the best player in the other team as well as rebounds which I think would have us undefeated had they been addressed earlier.
Yeah, I am not saying that the sky is falling and I don't believe that it is, but, I admittedly am dialing things back...I got lulled into believing how good this team was/is capable of and ignored some pretty big red flags.
That said, I do think there are some problems, and, potential big ones at that...namely the inability at all to shut down an opposing team's best player. Purdue only has two losses as you point out, but, both were the result of a complete inability to stop a guy at all, and, while you are also right about the fact that just about all that could go wrong did in the Wisconsin game...the same could be said about the Rutgers game as well...and, that being the case, how many more times will we state the same after a loss? Purdue should beat Rutgers pretty much in its sleep, especially absent Baker...Wisconsin had only won four times EVER in Mackey Arena before the other night (and, that is not a stellar Wisconsin team that won on Monday night...I mean, Indinia had a 20-point lead on them...in Madison)...so, while a lot of things went wrong, Purdue was the culprit of why a lot of those things went wrong.
The notion of "working on things" is tough to see at this point...there were 5 months at least to work on said things before the season started, never mind, there are a ton of guys that have been a part of the program for some time and worked on those things...two months into the season, and, that is a tough time to start working on defending an opponent's best player.
This team is not the same team that it was in November...but, that does not mean that it will be the same team come March either...if they are going to struggle, it is better to do it now and then be playing well later, but, some of the things that we are seeing are just things that are not typical for Purdue teams in January generally, and, it is pretty clear at the moment that Purdue just does not have anyone capable of stopping an opponent's best player, nor, making changes systematically to do so...maybe that will change...I am skeptical, but, maybe it will...something has to, right?
I do agree and have said it several times...Purdue has not been the same since Isaiah got hurt in the Iowa game...it struggled that night after it happened, and, it has struggled since.
Purdue is somewhat at a crossroads right now...and, it has put itself in a tough spot in the conference unfortunately...still does not mean that they can't be great, or won't be, but, Purdue had some issues and flaws even when it was looking like the potential best team in the country in November...it just seems to have more of both at the moment, for whatever reason(s), which is not the trend you would like to see obviously.
Maybe staff changes have hurt Purdue....
Maybe it is as simple as getting Ivey dialed in...
I have no idea admittedly...plenty of theories, but, no actual idea. I just hope that things get figured out and fixed, as, I do feel like you are spot on about this team being capable of doing things no other team(s) have, but, at the moment, it sure does not feel like that or seem like it.
