Update on Harrison Ingram
- Thread starter Cthreepo
- Start date
I believe the lowest factor for a 5 star one and done is academics. The player is going to take basically the same courses their first semester at any school. And the second semester they will concentrate on basketball and improving their draft stock. I doubt they even go to any classes once they get that notification they. Will be drafted in the first round.
That's not what I said....
"It would be hard to come into a place like Purdue Basketball and be more "lax" with fundamentals, etc. -- and get away with it if you aren't producing."
I'm saying if you try to change the culture somewhere AND you aren't winning in the way fans expect, then it becomes a problem fast. You'd probably be on a hot seat faster than a coach coming in with the same culture mindset fans are used to and producing similar results.
Other than those 2 pesky National Championships Wright won in 3 years not so long ago. (sort of defeats your argument).
I don't disagree. If the team is sloppy and not winning, that's a recipe for pissed off fans.
But, on the topic of culture, I think the "Defense lives here" mentality or persona has hurt Purdue. I think defense will win some games, but offense wins championships in NCAA hoops. Edwards is living proof of that.
Bad fit at Texas if you ask me. Shaka is a defensive minded coach who played an in your face style defense at VCU similar to Nolan Richardson's "40 minutes of hell". Big 12 is a more run and gun type league where teams prefer to score in the 80's, where Shaka really likes to slow the pace. Texas isn't a hard place to recruit given Austin is a phenomenal city and the UT campus is second to none but a lot of the high end individual talent just doesn't mesh with Shaka's coaching style. Will be a make or break year for Shaka though no doubt. Returns his entire team and adds a top 10 recruit. A lot of the "experts" have UT as a preseason top 15,10 team. Rest remains to be seen. I think Shaka is a better coach than his record indicates but has really done his best adapting to his scenery.
I thought Shaka's VCU Final Four team was more offensive than defensive minded. I was at that game in Chicago and I thought they ran Purdue off the floor. You knew Purdue had there hands full early in that one.
It's been awhile, I think they got hot and it hit a bunch of shots in that tournament, but historically, if you look at Shaka-coached teams both at VCU and Texas they are grind it out teams who play 40 minutes of pressure defense. Under Shaka, Texas has averaged
71.4 (217th)
67.1 (302nd)
72.1 (222nd)
71 (221st)
64.2 (326th)
Teams at VCU were a little more explosive but points were predicated on turnovers as schematically he had the advantage do to level of competition. His gimmick defense "havoc" hasn't translated at this level, especially in an offensive oriented conference such as the B12 and his methodically tried to wear opponents down on the offensive end which hasn't worked. Still think he's a better coach than some give him credit for and can't fault him for bolting towards a bigger payday, but he hasn't assimilated very well at this level of basketball.
Who cares about shaka Can we get back to Talking about Ingram.
Archie Miller most impacted by this development.
I saw that too and not sure how to interpret it. Guess we’ll just know more on August 1st.
I mean, "Defense lives here" is a sign in the student section. "play hard" is on their practice uniforms...one can argue that hurts Purdue with recruits....doesn't mean we should change.
Again, simply saying "offense wins championships in NCAA hoops" is such a generic, simplified statement. There are so many factors that go into things. Yes, Carsen was explosive (although his FG % wasn't consistently good) - but we also had a good defensive team. We didn't win the ODU game in the first round cause of our offense - which sucked. We held ODU to under 30% shooting.
OK let's talk about another recruit Ingram is not coming here. Let's go a 110 miles an hour after Kaufman
Yeah, I mean look at the 2 teams in the finals... UVA and Texas Tech... they played a little bit of defense...
In college or over their career? Reason I ask is because Ingram is a 1-2 year college player and Kaufman is more like 2-4 year.
I honestly see Kaufman - if drafted by the right team - could be super productive in the NBA. Wider body, can score at all three levels and is gritty. That is a guy who makes rosters - not the biggest contracts of course but he has staying power.
Heard that might be because he later got an offer to Howard, and is intrigued by the HBC option as both his parents went to HBCs. That could possibly be what is surprising. Who knows though he's a 17 year old.
Give me any one of Kaufman, Ingram or Wesley to pair with Furst and let’s GOOOOO!
Irrelevant as those are ancient history. The only factors that matter in comparing two coaches are 1) head to head record and 2) recency.
MP owns Bennett as well by the way.
Let's be honest, who ends up the better NBA player is not the important part for us. It's who makes a bigger impact while wearing a Purdue jersey.
But, Keady and to an extent, Painter, valued defense so much, I think it was both a detriment to the team and in recruiting. Think about all the really good defensive guards they had compared to the really good offensive guards. There's a huge gap.
I dont have the time or inclination to research it, but it would be interesting to compare offensive and defensive stats of the last 10 years FF teams. I'm sure there were some solid defensive teams but I'm guessing the majority were good scoring teams with a couple pros.
Matt Painter has had some of the most efficient offensive teams in the nation in recent years. I think if you took some time to research it, you might be surprised that he is such a great offensive coach. Where as his defensive stats have been good, but not top ten type great.
"in recent years". That's correct. And as I've said before, I think Painter has changed some of his coaching philosophies and has become much more offensive minded. I think he wants all 5 positions (ok...Eastern was the exception) to be threat to score and all 5 positions have the freedom to do so. I actually do think he's a pretty good offensive coach, he just needs to get the horses to get him over the hump in the tourney.
During Painter's tenure, Purdue has consistently been among the conference leaders in scoring. Only during a couple of down years (7-8 years ago) has he not had the team in the top 3-4.
I mean it's how you want to view it I guess. Some of his early years we were great offensively.
I think Painter does a good job of adapting his roster to maximize output - a lot of coaches are not. We had teams that really didn't have business competing in the Big Ten or not favored to do much in the NCAA Tournament that exceeded expectations because he maximized his roster.
No coach has the philosophy of preferring some of his players not to be an offensive threat.
Logic tells you the more talent you have, generally the better you should be. Are you going to make a Final Four with 5 Chris Kramers? Of course not. But there's a lot more factors than that, or a team like Duke would be in the Final Four every year, not missing it the last several years.
I agree with your point on ‘needing more horses’ if the goal is a National Championship (which, imo, it should be).
Your point on needing an elite offense to do so is right, but it’s only half the story. The vast majority of NC winners the last 20 years have ranked in the top 10 nationally in both offensive and defensive adjusted efficiency.
Now you've done it. Lenny will move the goalposts because that is just what he does.
But this is my thing. Us as fans want a Final Four, to be national championship contenders, etc. - and put the pressure on Painter for it.
However, no matter how you look at it....Purdue itself is not treating the program as a "Final Four" caliber program. I keep seeing (not you per se) people looking at Painter to just magically recruit better.
If you took all the factors of investing in a basketball program (coaches/support staff, facilities, budget, etc.) - and ranked the programs blindly in each of those categories -- you maybe would say that Purdue's trying somewhat to compete in the Big Ten, but not a top 5 within just the conference. And no way in hell nationally.
But what's changed for Painter due to Purdue's support since he was hired? In the last 10+ years: There was initial barebones treatment of the program that was adjusted with the Mizzou thing. They crowdfunded for a new video board/lights which, at best, brought Purdue up to average - not ahead (the sound system is still weak). Assistant coaches are given 1 more year on their contracts (catching up). Painter was allowed to hire 1 FTE even though he outlined 2 needs (recruiting position and analyst, which still lags peers). And a refurbishment of the locker room (catching up). The budget has improved since 10+ years ago, but is bottom half of the Big Ten.
Everything Purdue's doing is reactionary, or simply playing catch up, in bits and pieces -- these are relatively small things. There's nothing that's been done by the administration that's actually put Purdue ahead...let alone made a statement. Our basketball player facilities would rank in the bottom couple in the Big Ten.
Purdue ended up doing a lot for football because fans made it very well known it needed to change -- because we were flat out bad and nobody was going to games. Painter is a victim of his own success here - Purdue has basically taken his ability to have success for granted:
1. Because he can still win when underfunded. and
2. His results far outpace the level of what he's supported with (i.e. they won the Big Ten, why do we need to proactively do more?)
3. He's an alum, so there isn't as much pressure of others coming knocking
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An elite offense would be great, but I think an elite scorer is even more important.
Someone like Edwards (and he's probably not a great example because I believe he was just so unique) who you can give him the ball and just say "go get us a bucket".
Granted, those types are hard to find. But, I do believe you need to have at least 2 NBA level talents on the floor to consistently make tourney runs.
What do you think MBob says when presented with this data?
Do you think the ath dept and school administration is happy to be upper half B10 and a relatively successful program without committing as much financially as others?
Is the justification for Brohm's salary (top 2 in the B10?) and financial commitment to football because the AD and Admin believe Purdue can compete for the playoffs and a NC?
Will someone please start a new thread when there is an actual update? Silly me keeps checking in thinking there is news.
