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Anyone saying CMP doesn't develop bigs doesn't know basketball

*4purdue*

*4purdue*

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May 6, 2008
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CMP has only been at Purdue 10 years. The first year you can pretty much throw out because it was GK's leftovers. He then coached:

Landry (NBA) 1 year
Johnson (NBA) 4 years
AJ Hammons (future NBA) 3 years

That is 8 of his 10 years he's been starting a big that is in the NBA. He will have AJ back for this year & Haas for the next 2 years (not to mention Swanigan who will probably end up in the NBA & Hummel who played the 4 at Purdue & is in the NBA). Just because we don't have a list of 5 or 6 guys that are in the NBA doesn't mean we didn't have an NBA center, they were just here 4 years developing into that NBA player.
 
Yeah I mean, JJ developed well but he's just not an NBA 5, and he's not a good enough shooter to be a 4. That's just how it is.
 
*4purdue* said:
CMP has only been at Purdue 10 years. The first year you can pretty much throw out because it was GK's leftovers. He then coached:

Landry (NBA) 1 year
Johnson (NBA) 4 years
AJ Hammons (future NBA) 3 years

That is 8 of his 10 years he's been starting a big that is in the NBA. He will have AJ back for this year & Haas for the next 2 years (not to mention Swanigan who will probably end up in the NBA & Hummel who played the 4 at Purdue & is in the NBA). Just because we don't have a list of 5 or 6 guys that are in the NBA doesn't mean we didn't have an NBA center, they were just here 4 years developing into that NBA player.
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I don't think anyone is saying Painter can't develop bigs or players in general. I think what some people (I would assume non Purdue fans) take issue with is saying Painter is some legendary developer of bigs and that a prospect big man should choose Purdue over other schools. Painter has done well with a lot of the players he has had. He has developed some really well and has had some that haven't developed much, every coach does. I just don't think he is any better than many of the other B10 coaches.
 
SNU0821 said:
I don't think anyone is saying Painter can't develop bigs or players in general. I think what some people (I would assume non Purdue fans) take issue with is saying Painter is some legendary developer of bigs and that a prospect big man should choose Purdue over other schools. Painter has done well with a lot of the players he has had. He has developed some really well and has had some that haven't developed much, every coach does. I just don't think he is any better than many of the other B10 coaches.
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If I'm a big choosing a Big Ten coach, I would strongly consider Izzo, Ryan, and Painter based on their track records and history of how they have used big men.

Painter's offense can be a tough sell to point guards, but should be appealing to big men.
 
No offense but how does this list help? JJ is out of the league, Carl is a career backup and AJ is projected to be a 2nd round pick (which is why he came back). The NBA has gone through probably a few hundred NBA bigs (C and PF) in the last 8 years. Pick any college that has a decent basketball program and you can probably find 2 bigs that were drafted from that school.

Actually let's do that. Illinois which hasn't had any success I can remember lately had Meyers Leonard and James Augustine. Maryland had Alex Len and Jordan Williams. LSU had Glen Davis and two guys I've never heard of. These are just three random schools I've thought of.
 
boiler_pride said:
No offense but how does this list help? JJ is out of the league, Carl is a career backup and AJ is projected to be a 2nd round pick (which is why he came back). The NBA has gone through probably a few hundred NBA bigs (C and PF) in the last 8 years. Pick any college that has a decent basketball program and you can probably find 2 bigs that were drafted from that school.

Actually let's do that. Illinois which hasn't had any success I can remember lately had Meyers Leonard and James Augustine. Maryland had Alex Len and Jordan Williams. LSU had Glen Davis and two guys I've never heard of. These are just three random schools I've thought of.
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This is accurate, and you can add to it that CMP coached Landry for 1 year and he was already pretty good before that. To the OP, just curious what started this? Who is saying CMP can't develop bigs?
 
BoilerDaddy said:
If I'm a big choosing a Big Ten coach, I would strongly consider Izzo, Ryan, and Painter based on their track records and history of how they have used big men.

Painter's offense can be a tough sell to point guards, but should be appealing to big men.
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I agree; Painter's offense does seem to be a tough sell to PGs, at times. At the same time, I think his system allows plenty of freedom for PGs...just not PGs that are looking to jack up low-percentage shots.
 
AJH's defense has improved dramatically, he was a foul waiting to happen now he's an enforcer at the rim. JJ's offense got much better in his time at PU. I think a lot of that was solid position coaching, along with hard work from talented players. Contrast that to Cody Zeller who was shooting off balance fadeaway jumpers pretty consistently at the end of his career...
 
bocaboiler said:
AJH's defense has improved dramatically, he was a foul waiting to happen now he's an enforcer at the rim. JJ's offense got much better in his time at PU. I think a lot of that was solid position coaching, along with hard work from talented players. Contrast that to Cody Zeller who was shooting off balance fadeaway jumpers pretty consistently at the end of his career...
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That's hilarious because it's not even close to being true. Cody 100% got better while he was at IU. Hell, even Vonleh was better at the end of the year than he was at the beginning. Go listen to recruits. They care about getting better and getting to the NBA. All the recruits give credit to coaches for getting players to the league. Matta gets credit for Russell who will be a lottery pick. Who thought that would have been the case? Crean gets credit for Zeller and Vonleh. Beilein gets credit for Burke even though Burke was pretty dominant as a freshman (who was just severely underrated).

The fans definition of "developing" and what recruits consider "developing" are two totally different things.
 
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SNU0821 said:
That's hilarious because it's not even close to being true. Cody 100% got better while he was at IU. Hell, even Vonleh was better at the end of the year than he was at the beginning. Go listen to recruits. They care about getting better and getting to the NBA. All the recruits give credit to coaches for getting players to the league. Matta gets credit for Russell who will be a lottery pick. Who thought that would have been the case? Crean gets credit for Zeller and Vonleh. Beilein gets credit for Burke even though Burke was pretty dominant as a freshman (who was just severely underrated).

The fans definition of "developing" and what recruits consider "developing" are two totally different things.
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While Matta will get credit for Russell...he seems to be a case of just being vastly underrated coming out of HS, even as burger boy. He should've been a top 3 recruit, but, because his athleticism doesn't jump out at you, he wasn't.
 
Snuie c'mon... Zeller was projected all yr to go 11 and then in pre-draft camp he played to his ability and moved up. Vonleh was projected 6th before he set foot on IU's floor. Let's be real Crean doesn't develop Bigs because of his system. Projections... Not development.
 
Poprudy said:
Snuie c'mon... Zeller was projected all yr to go 11 and then in pre-draft camp he played to his ability and moved up. Vonleh was projected 6th before he set foot on IU's floor. Let's be real Crean doesn't develop Bigs because of his system. Projections... Not development.
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Agree to disagree. Call it what you want, I don't care. Both players got better and the most important thing is recruits focus on those guys being drafted high. That's what is important to them. Those guys doing well and getting drafted high has helped Crean. Same with Matta and other coaches that have had one and done or two and done type players.

I will agree his system is more guard/wing focused.
 
Poprudy said:
Snuie c'mon... Zeller was projected all yr to go 11 and then in pre-draft camp he played to his ability and moved up. Vonleh was projected 6th before he set foot on IU's floor. Let's be real Crean doesn't develop Bigs because of his system. Projections... Not development.
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This.
 
*4purdue* said:
CMP has only been at Purdue 10 years. The first year you can pretty much throw out because it was GK's leftovers. He then coached:

Landry (NBA) 1 year
Johnson (NBA) 4 years
AJ Hammons (future NBA) 3 years

That is 8 of his 10 years he's been starting a big that is in the NBA. He will have AJ back for this year & Haas for the next 2 years (not to mention Swanigan who will probably end up in the NBA & Hummel who played the 4 at Purdue & is in the NBA). Just because we don't have a list of 5 or 6 guys that are in the NBA doesn't mean we didn't have an NBA center, they were just here 4 years developing into that NBA player.
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is Johnson in the NBA? Is Hammons? Vonleh and Zeller are lottery picks, and Crean is getting ripped. Two Big Man lottery picks in the last 3 years versus Landry and Johnson in nine years. None of us are claiming IU is the "cradle of Big Men". Why are you? it is kinda silly...
 
jimmygoiu said:
is Johnson in the NBA? Is Hammons? Vonleh and Zeller are lottery picks, and Crean is getting ripped. Two Big Man lottery picks in the last 3 years versus Landry and Johnson in nine years. None of us are claiming IU is the "cradle of Big Men". Why are you? it is kinda silly...
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Zeller and Vonleh would have been 1st round picks out of HS if the NBA didn't have the 1 and done rule. JJ may not be in the league, but he was drafted and spent a year in the league. Coming out of HS, I don't think many saw that coming.
 
pboiler18 said:
29 other teams can pick him up but havent so....
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Because he's already wasted his formative years, 22-24, playing for the Celtics loaded veteran lineup with KG and Jermaine Oneal. Teams don't think twice about the NBDL when the "next best thing" is the hyped 19 yr old in the draft.

ESPN.com called a sophomore JJ, "perhaps the most improved player in college basketball."
http://sports.espn.go.com/espnmag/story?id=4017019
 
SNU0821 said:
That's hilarious because it's not even close to being true. Cody 100% got better while he was at IU. Hell, even Vonleh was better at the end of the year than he was at the beginning. Go listen to recruits. They care about getting better and getting to the NBA. All the recruits give credit to coaches for getting players to the league. Matta gets credit for Russell who will be a lottery pick. Who thought that would have been the case? Crean gets credit for Zeller and Vonleh. Beilein gets credit for Burke even though Burke was pretty dominant as a freshman (who was just severely underrated).

The fans definition of "developing" and what recruits consider "developing" are two totally different things.
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Do you think that Cody was noticibly better as a sophomore than a freshman? He seemed like the same player to me. I thought that he was one of the best players in the Big Ten as a freshman and that he would explode as a sophomore, but the player who exploded was his teammate, Victor Oladipo. I'll give Crean credit for Oladipo, Hulls, Watford, and Yogi because I think that they all grew a lot at IU, but I just didn't see much growth with Cody.

I didn't see much evidence of him developing strong post moves and counters, but he was such a great athlete and was surrounded by such good shooters that he was able to get away with driving right at his defender and drawing fouls several times a game. It was fairly effective, but I never thought it was the best use of Cody's immense talent.
 
BoilerDaddy said:
Do you think that Cody was noticibly better as a sophomore than a freshman? He seemed like the same player to me. I thought that he was one of the best players in the Big Ten as a freshman and that he would explode as a sophomore, but the player who exploded was his teammate, Victor Oladipo. I'll give Crean credit for Oladipo, Hulls, Watford, and Yogi because I think that they all grew a lot at IU, but I just didn't see much growth with Cody.

I didn't see much evidence of him developing strong post moves and counters, but he was such a great athlete and was surrounded by such good shooters that he was able to get away with driving right at his defender and drawing fouls several times a game. It was fairly effective, but I never thought it was the best use of Cody's immense talent.
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I do think Cody got better from his freshman year. I don't think it was as much as Vic, as you pointed out though. I also think that Crean didn't utilize Cody as much as he could have, but you and I have already acknowledged that Crean's system is more guard/wing oriented.
 
BBG said:
To which crean had nothing to do with. Sorry, just a fact you have to deal with.
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Crean absolutely gets credit. And Coach K gets credit for Okafor even though he would have been a sure fire lottery pick no matter where he went. Same with Calipari. This is going back to the idea of development from a fans perspective and a recruits perspective. We as fans may not put a ton of stock into the development of one and dones, but recruits do, and that's what is most important. If your stance was correct, then guys like Calipari wouldn't continuously get talked about for developing players and getting them to the NBA. Sorry, just a fact you have to deal with...
 
SNU0821 said:
Crean absolutely gets credit. And Coach K gets credit for Okafor even though he would have been a sure fire lottery pick no matter where he went. Same with Calipari. This is going back to the idea of development from a fans perspective and a recruits perspective. We as fans may not put a ton of stock into the development of one and dones, but recruits do, and that's what is most important. If your stance was correct, then guys like Calipari wouldn't continuously get talked about for developing players and getting them to the NBA. Sorry, just a fact you have to deal with...
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This is where I disagree. I don't think anyone believes that Cal is some wizard of developing players. Producing NBA players? Sure. But people (at least, most) are smart enough to realize he is more of a fantastic recruiter, than anything.
 
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SNU0821 said:
I do think Cody got better from his freshman year. I don't think it was as much as Vic, as you pointed out though. I also think that Crean didn't utilize Cody as much as he could have, but you and I have already acknowledged that Crean's system is more guard/wing oriented.
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Agree. But the differences between Painter and Crean are significant and very relevant to this discussion.

In Painter's case, the same coaching philosophy that contributed to Ronnie Johnson's decision to transfer has been huge for Hammons' development. There were times when Purdue was struggling a few years ago that I felt that Painter was almost stubborn in his insistence on feeding the post because it was very inefficient offense at the time, but Painter never really wavered from the approach. It really took until the middle of last season for the post offense to start to work as intended and it still wasn't where it needs to be at the end of last season, but Painter clearly has an end game in mind that we hope to see fulfilled this season. Most coaches would have basically abandoned the post game a long time ago.
 
BoilerDaddy said:
Agree. But the differences between Painter and Crean are significant and very relevant to this discussion.

In Painter's case, the same coaching philosophy that contributed to Ronnie Johnson's decision to transfer has been huge for Hammons' development. There were times when Purdue was struggling a few years ago that I felt that Painter was almost stubborn in his insistence on feeding the post because it was very inefficient offense at the time, but Painter never really wavered from the approach. It really took until the middle of last season for the post offense to start to work as intended and it still wasn't where it needs to be at the end of last season, but Painter clearly has an end game in mind that we hope to see fulfilled this season. Most coaches would have basically abandoned the post game a long time ago.
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Of course the differences between the two coaches are significant. Both run completely different styles. I would say though, that both coaches have had their share of players developing and players not developing.
 
BoilerDeac said:
This is where I disagree. I don't think anyone believes that Cal is some wizard of developing players. Producing NBA players? Sure. But people (at least, most) are smart enough to realize he is more of a fantastic recruiter, than anything.
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I'm not calling him a wizard of developing players, but he does seem to get a lot of of his players quickly all while managing lots of egos (I would assume) and getting his teams to play well. Again, recruits see this as development whereas fans don't.

Point is, what would a recruit say between Crean (or Matta or any other number or coaches) and Painter when it comes to the development of bigs? Would they say that Crean hasn't developed big men while Painter has? JJ is a great example of working hard, developing over a college career and getting drafted even though he's not in the league anymore. Would they say Crean has developed big men because he had two get drafted in the lottery while Painter hasn't? Cody and Vonleh are both still in the league and I would venture to think they will be for a little while. I would venture to say, based on articles with interviews from recruits, that recruits would see both coaches as having developed big men. Both took high school players and got them drafted. No recruit is going to say, "well Crean didn't develop Cody because he would have been drafted anyway." I would challenge anyone here to find anything like that from any reputable source.
 
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Anyone ever notice how quickly the IU lurkers post the second something positive about CMP is posted? This thread has nothing to do with crean yet here they area trying to convince us of his supposed coaching prowess.

The insecurity they have must run pretty deep.
 
SNU0821 said:
Of course the differences between the two coaches are significant. Both run completely different styles. I would say though, that both coaches have had their share of players developing and players not developing.
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Sure. But what would Hammons' role have been if he had chosen IU?
SNU0821 said:
I'm not calling him a wizard of developing players, but he does seem to get a lot of of his players quickly all while managing lots of egos (I would assume) and getting his teams to play well. Again, recruits see this as development whereas fans don't.

Point is, what would a recruit say between Crean (or Matta or any other number or coaches) and Painter when it comes to the development of bigs? Would they say that Crean hasn't developed big men while Painter has? JJ is a great example of working hard, developing over a college career and getting drafted even though he's not in the league anymore. Would they say Crean has developed big men because he had two get drafted in the lottery while Painter hasn't? Cody and Vonleh are both still in the league and I would venture to think they will be for a little while. I would venture to say, based on articles with interviews from recruits, that recruits would see both coaches as having developed big men. Both took high school players and got them drafted. No recruit is going to say, "well Crean didn't develop Cody because he would have been drafted anyway." I would challenge anyone here to find anything like that from any reputable source.
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Swanigan might be the example. If you look at his finalists, including Purdue, MSU, Cal, and Duke, they were all with coaches with a willingness to build around big men.
 
SNU0821 said:
I'm not calling him a wizard of developing players, but he does seem to get a lot of of his players quickly all while managing lots of egos (I would assume) and getting his teams to play well. Again, recruits see this as development whereas fans don't.

Point is, what would a recruit say between Crean (or Matta or any other number or coaches) and Painter when it comes to the development of bigs? Would they say that Crean hasn't developed big men while Painter has? JJ is a great example of working hard, developing over a college career and getting drafted even though he's not in the league anymore. Would they say Crean has developed big men because he had two get drafted in the lottery while Painter hasn't? Cody and Vonleh are both still in the league and I would venture to think they will be for a little while. I would venture to say, based on articles with interviews from recruits, that recruits would see both coaches as having developed big men. Both took high school players and got them drafted. No recruit is going to say, "well Crean didn't develop Cody because he would have been drafted anyway." I would challenge anyone here to find anything like that from any reputable source.
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Just because no recruit would say it doesn't mean it isn't true.
 
BBG said:
Anyone ever notice how quickly the IU lurkers post the second something positive about CMP is posted? This thread has nothing to do with crean yet here they area trying to convince us of his supposed coaching prowess.

The insecurity they have must run pretty deep.
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Whoa, whoa, whoa. I've been complimentary of Painter. JJ is about as good of an example of real development as you can find in college. I have said numerous times Painter has had his fair share of players really develop. He has also had his share of players who didn't pan out (as does every coach). I'm not trying to convince anyone anything about Crean. Clearly you've missed the whole point of my posts. I've referenced several coaches here, not just Crean. You may want to go reread the thread because you clearly didn't understand what's been said the first time.

My whole issue is the idea of developing players is different for recruits and fans and every coach has had their share of players develop, not just Painter. Just because a player doesn't stay four years doesn't mean they don't develop. Good Lord. It's not like I've been bashing Painter here. Maybe try and unbunch your panties. I've had a good conversation with a few guys here. No need to ruin that.
 
SNU0821 said:
Whoa, whoa, whoa. I've been complimentary of Painter. JJ is about as good of an example of real development as you can find in college. I have said numerous times Painter has had his fair share of players really develop. He has also had his share of players who didn't pan out (as does every coach). I'm not trying to convince anyone anything about Crean. Clearly you've missed the whole point of my posts. I've referenced several coaches here, not just Crean. You may want to go reread the thread because you clearly didn't understand what's been said the first time.

My whole issue is the idea of developing players is different for recruits and fans and every coach has had their share of players develop, not just Painter. Just because a player doesn't stay four years doesn't mean they don't develop. Good Lord. It's not like I've been bashing Painter here. Maybe try and unbunch your panties. I've had a good conversation with a few guys here. No need to ruin that.
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You tend to spin these threads down a spiral and no matter what you say, you aren't going to convince us here to fall in line with what you are trying to push.

I generally don't have issue with you, but when it keeps going around and around it is best to just move on because as I said, you aren't going to convince anyone here if things have regressed that much in a thread.
 
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BBG said:
You tend to spin these threads down a spiral and no matter what you say, you aren't going to convince us here to fall in line with what you are trying to push. So I would take your own advice and unbunch your own panties since you are on a PURDUE forum derailing threads.
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Again, I've had a good conversation with a few here. No need to derail it with your previous post.
 
BBG said:
You tend to spin these threads down a spiral and no matter what you say, you aren't going to convince us here to fall in line with what you are trying to push.

I generally don't have issue with you, but when it keeps going around and around it is best to just move on because as I said, you aren't going to convince anyone here if things have regressed that much in a thread.
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Here comes the self proclaimed "forum police".
 
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SNU0821 said:
Again, I've had a good conversation with a few here. No need to derail it with your previous post.
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Not derailing anything, was merely pointing out tendencies you have had in the past. Like I said I have no issue with you and contrary to the court jester, am not trying to police this forum at all.

It's just my opinion and nothing more. I'm going off of 3 hours of sleep so quite possibly could be misinterpreting your intent. If so, then take what I pointed out with a grain of salt and we will just move on.
 
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