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Zone

Toyed with it is an accurate assessment, as Painter never made a genuine commitment to it...from a preparation standpoint, and certainly from an application one.

Zone can work to some extent for virtually any team...most importantly, Purdue simply has some guys that just are not capable of getting to their man and defending, and that is what the real issue has been at times (and has been an issue for some time).
You seem to think that employing a zone means you don't have to be able to execute fundamental defensive skills. That's just wrong. Same skills and abilities are required. Plus you now have to understand your particular zone's tactics and it's weaknesses. This quote is what a person who has never taught a zone to a team thinks.
 
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And you know this how? Were you part of the practices? No? Then STFU.

You negatwatts just can't be happy can you? We get it. You hate Painter and there is nothing he can do to change it. But every single one of the arguments you made for zone have been proven to be inaccurate and an over exaggeration on your part. Zone wouldn't of been tried if it hadn't of been prepared for and it wouldn't of worked against Nova. Period.

You really need to just stop talking about things you are clearly pretty clueless about.
You really should purchase a premium subscription. All this has been discussed over and over. Nubs as brought it up multiple times. Coaches have discussed it as well. So clearly the shoe is no the other foot. I don't there is anything inaccurate here except you post. So I think you should STFU.
 
You really should purchase a premium subscription. All this has been discussed over and over. Nubs as brought it up multiple times. Coaches have discussed it as well. So clearly the shoe is no the other foot. I don't there is anything inaccurate here except you post. So I think you should STFU.
Don't need a premium membership to see that this topic has been beaten to death and everything I said is accurate. So yeah, don't jump in where you are so out of your league there negatwatt.
 
All fair points, if not good ones...but I have long been an advocate of doing whatever is necessary as a coach to give your team the best chance to win games, and not being able to play a zone is more than just not having practiced it enough (although it does require putting time in to work on it obviouisly...that said, ALL of those guys have played zone defense during their long careers at some level and to some extent most likely, as it is prevalent in AAU).

I don't buy the notion that being able to play man and zone is a drain on practice time...or that practice time is the precious commodity suggested...I know that it is early on and with newcomers, but, there is more than sufficient time to be able to have worked on man and zone defense, among a multitude of other things.

Purdue has had games where playing a zone would have provided them a better opportunity, if not the best opportunity, to win...Monday night may have been one of them...if Purdue does not improve at preventing dribble drive penetration (that leads to fouls on their bigs), it will have other games where playing a zone will provide them a better opportunity to win as well...and it should be something that is available as such.

As for Haas' rebounding...I don't disagree with what you had asserted, yet, with the size advantage that he had (and most often has), three rebounds is not efficient in any sense...a guy that big and around the basket is likely to have three balls simply fall in his lap over the course of a game (and that may be what actually happened given your suggestion that he is an "area rebounder)...if Hammons is in that game, I am certain that he comes away with more than three rebounds...so, while it does have to do with being an area rebounder in a sense as you had alluded to, there is more to it as well in that it has to do with the individual also (no finer example of that than Swanigan for that matter).
Practice time is the one point I feel is irrefutable. Time for a coach is finite. You can only do so many things in that time so the more you add the less you spend on any given topic. The less repetition you get the less likely you are to execute well.
On rebounding I think we agree to a point. Hammond and Swanigan are far better rebounders than Haas for the same reason they are better shot blockers than Haas. They have the agility hand eye coordination, and timing to go get the ball in space. Haas must hold his ground and grab what comes his way. Even with that 3 is not enough. He should get that rebounding opponents free throws. Oh yeah, they would have to miss some:(.
The other part of our zone disagreement stems from the following. You view (I think) zone as a way for our larger slower team to counter the smaller quicker teams penetration. I view it as a way for a smaller quicker team to counter a big front court.
I just feel that if I'm going to use zone, I'm doing it like Boeheim, all in. Not smattering it in here and there.
Google zone offense and read about how to attack zones. It's way to easy to defeat, especially if not run well.
 
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I understand the notion for the zone and it has merit. It is how we as an Engineering school thinks, there is a problem so you try and solve it.

I don't think it's the ultimate fix however. As someone else pointed out, we were getting worked over by Hart until DM was put on him (I believe that is correct). Then while in man to man, Hart was essentially not effective.

You can put in whatever defense you want, but if people don't do their assignments or what they are expected to do, then it won't be effective.
 
And again this stupid zone argument being brought up by people mostly educated with a basketball IQ that of junior high playing or coaching.

The zone negates most of what Purdue does very well on the defensive side...especially rebounding with Vince and Biggie. It would also require an inordinate amount of practice time to install that defense as well as it isn't something you can just throw in.

Key point for you all to think about. Go back and watch IU last year in the non-conference and early conference season. They struggled incredibly on defense because Crean was having them playing zone and man to man (albeit some times switching in the middle of a defensive set) and it left players our of place and confused. When IU went strictly to a man to man concept, their season began to turn around.
 
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And again this stupid zone argument being brought up by people mostly educated with a basketball IQ that of junior high playing or coaching.

The zone negates most of what Purdue does very well on the defensive side...especially rebounding with Vince and Biggie. It would also require an inordinate amount of practice time to install that defense as well as it isn't something you can just throw in.

Key point for you all to think about. Go back and watch IU last year in the non-conference and early conference season. They struggled incredibly on defense because Crean was having them playing zone and man to man (albeit some times switching in the middle of a defensive set) and it left players our of place and confused. When IU went strictly to a man to man concept, their season began to turn around.
Yes. There are a lot of parallels between IU last year and Purdue two seasons ago.
 
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Zone defense... It is a fun discussion to have. I think that if we had won, there would be no discussion of it on this board, at all. We lost, so the urge is to "fix" the loss. We all tend to do that sort of analysis. As for my opinion, I think I would take all that practice time consumed by trying zone, and use it to practice free throws. :cool:. Next time we drop a 10 point loss on those guys.

I have always thought that zones are breakable by getting a man into the high key area, behind the zone. Get the ball to him, and let him hit slashers for easy baskets, or take it in himself. Think of Hart being behind the zone. Doing this puts tremendous pressure on the zone's center and can get him into foul trouble quickly. Given that, a zone against Nova would have been a disaster.
 
Zone defense... It is a fun discussion to have. I think that if we had won, there would be no discussion of it on this board, at all. We lost, so the urge is to "fix" the loss. We all tend to do that sort of analysis. As for my opinion, I think I would take all that practice time consumed by trying zone, and use it to practice free throws. :cool:. Next time we drop a 10 point loss on those guys.

I have always thought that zones are breakable by getting a man into the high key area, behind the zone. Get the ball to him, and let him hit slashers for easy baskets, or take it in himself. Think of Hart being behind the zone. Doing this puts tremendous pressure on the zone's center and can get him into foul trouble quickly. Given that, a zone against Nova would have been a disaster.
It depend on the zone, but with a traditional 2-3 I agree with you.
 
And you know this how? Were you part of the practices? No? Then STFU.

You negatwatts just can't be happy can you? We get it. You hate Painter and there is nothing he can do to change it. But every single one of the arguments you made for zone have been proven to be inaccurate and an over exaggeration on your part. Zone wouldn't of been tried if it hadn't of been prepared for and it wouldn't of worked against Nova. Period.

You really need to just stop talking about things you are clearly pretty clueless about.


I agree with everything you said. My only question is, when did the word "negatwatts" become so commonly used? It's like the word bigot. Nobody really heard of it until the last year or two, now everyone is a bigot if they disagree with someone who is from a different race, religion, or sexual preference.
 
My only question is, when did the word "negatwatts" become so commonly used?
I only use it here in regards to the people that are pretty much only here to post negative things. I change between negatwitt and negatwatt depending on whom I am responding to and my mood at that time.

I don't care what a person identifies as, their skin color, religion, gender or whatever because none of that is relevant to someone just posting moronic negativity just for the sake of trying to bring CMP or the team down.
 
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I only use it here in regards to the people that are pretty much only here to post negative things. I change between negatwitt and negatwatt depending on whom I am responding to and my mood at that time.

I don't care what a person identifies as, their skin color, religion, gender or whatever because none of that is relevant to someone just posting moronic negativity just for the sake of trying to bring CMP or the team down.
In fairness, I don't think that DG10 meets this description. In this thread, it appears that he just wants to discuss strategy.
 
I agree with everything you said. My only question is, when did the word "negatwatts" become so commonly used? It's like the word bigot. Nobody really heard of it until the last year or two, now everyone is a bigot if they disagree with someone who is from a different race, religion, or sexual preference.
It is only "commonly" used by Kessel and he uses it in every post sometimes multiple uses in the same post.
 
not sure that zone solves our problem of pick n roll defense. To me, we just need to try some different ways of defending it. I feel like we chase 90% of the time. If we switch that up, it would go a long way. NBA D's have about 4 or 5 different ways they approach PnR D. It would be good for us.
 
There's no infatuation. Tons of programs have used it effectively at one point or another in games FOR DECADES. You anti-zone guys are just afraid of it being a regular thing because it would be different for Purdue and you. You fear the unknown and the possibility of change.

Well, I've coached zone 1-2-2, 2-3, 1-3-1 as well as zone traps. I have no issue with a zone, but people that talk it may not understand the issues with it. There is a reason why most coaches do NOT make it a staple of their defense. Do you understand that Villanova was athletic? Do you understand that assignments can be more confusing in a zone (overloading the court)? Do you understand block outs become more difficult in a zone? Is there a possibilty that a good shooting team would prefer a zone? Think Cline wants to see a zone or tight D in man? A 2-3 might have stopped dribble pentration better...maybe...but would it have allowed more threes. AS I said, people get infatuated with zones and in many cases don't understand some of the problems with them. All that said, I'll repeat myself and state that I wish Matt had it in his tool box for limited use, but there. I do not believe that would have been good defensive strategy against Villanova...but I could be wrong. Do you think Purdue recruited players best suited for a zone? There are a lot of ways to play the game, but most that are paid to coach play man...why?
 
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Yes. You lose by


Regarding: "I often wondered what coaches could do if the had a defensive team and an offensive team with a few seconds in between plays...how different the game would be..." that would stop Izzos early offense game! I would press, press, and press some more as turnovers would be the only easy baskets! Practice would change immensely and the teams would require many more (at least twice as many) players, coaches too.
I can change the game by shortening the length of the court and make it a bit wider as well. Basketball coaches have to pick players that can do it on both sides of the ball...quickly. :)
 
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Don't need a premium membership to see that this topic has been beaten to death and everything I said is accurate. So yeah, don't jump in where you are so out of your league there negatwatt.
Well, there is just no arguing with stupid. They just drag you down to their level and beat you up with experience. Lol.
 
It's a good thing Purdue plays man-to-man D every single possession. It certainly shuts down teams like it did to mighty Georgia State in the first half.
 
It's a good thing Purdue plays man-to-man D every single possession. It certainly shuts down teams like it did to mighty Georgia State in the first half.
Well it helps for the players to put in the effort. So even a zone wouldn't help. I am so glad you aren't the coach.
 
Whether or not we play a zone we better practice against it because we are going to see a ton of it. Some coaches adjust their strategy to adjust to their opponents.
 
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I noticed that the weather has changed to colder, rather suddenly. Also, the traffic was worse today than I recall. If only we would change to zone defense, I am sure both of those problems would be fixed!

:cool:
 
Whether or not we play a zone we better practice against it because we are going to see a ton of it. Some coaches adjust their strategy to adjust to their opponents.
there was an awful lot of adjustment last night on O and D concerning Haas.
 
My problem is this - I think it's ridiculous that Syracuse only plays a zone. I also feel the same about a team that only plays man to man. We can't even play a zone when necessary? My opinion is that's unacceptable. You guys are all gonna disagree. That's fine. Ask Coach K.

+1
 
Let me get this straight... out of your 5 defenders, you're going to put 4 of them on 2 players? So that leaves 1 player to guard 3?


Hopefully someone does this to us!:D:D



That said, Painter is well aware teams are going to do exactly that, more-so when they are in the low post. EVERY team has done it to our bigs since Hammons sophomore year. Painter has adjusted very well, instilled in our bigs understand the double is coming and look for the pass immediately by holding the ball high, typically the 2nd defender flees back to his assignment, and it's a 1 on 1 again until he dribbles, at which time the defender comes back, leaving someone wide open for a 3. Like I said in another thread, our gameplan worked great. We just didn't knock down about 7 wide open 3s. We hit half of them, we win by nearly 10 points, not to mention FTs.

Part of adjusting well means having guards and wings that can score when the opposing D is keying in on one or two bigs. In Purdue's last two NCAA Tournament games, the only players outside of the trio of bigs (Hammons, Haas, Swanigan) to score in double-figures in those games were Vince Edwards (both games) and Dakota Mathias (UALR game). Players have to make plays and shots, but it's still the coaches job to put them (the non-post players) in better positions to score, whether it be through play-calling or just reminding them of their options and space in the motion offense. In regards to the last two NCAA Tournament games, I wouldn't consider that adjusting all that well on CMP's part.
 
Part of adjusting well means having guards and wings that can score when the opposing D is keying in on one or two bigs. In Purdue's last two NCAA Tournament games, the only players outside of the trio of bigs (Hammons, Haas, Swanigan) to score in double-figures in those games were Vince Edwards (both games) and Dakota Mathias (UALR game). Players have to make plays and shots, but it's still the coaches job to put them (the non-post players) in better positions to score, whether it be through play-calling or just reminding them of their options and space in the motion offense. In regards to the last two NCAA Tournament games, I wouldn't consider that adjusting all that well on CMP's part.
So our guards missing wide open, stop and send a text before you shoot, type threes is the fault of coaching strategy? They had wide open shot after shot available and just flat out missed until they wouldn't even pull the trigger anymore. I would love to coach all my games against you Nags. I'd be in any coaching hall of fame I wanted.
 
Ok everybody - sorry I started a post that has been apparently beat to death in the past. I'm not on her too much. My original thought was simply that a zone for a bit may have kept Haas in the game longer in the first half vs Nova. I'm not anti-painter, I'm a Purdue grad who watches basically every game from upstate NY. I also realize we have limited practice time, Nova had athletic wings, and man to man is usually the preferred D to play. Some of you on here take things very personally and accuse others with different opinions of being morons or idiots or having no basketball IQ. Ok you all have your own opinions as do I. My opinion is a Zone may, and I say may, have kept Haas from getting his 3rd foul in the first half and may, and I say may again, have kept him on the floor and led to him scoring a few more points in the first half and led to a different outcome. It's almost like if you have a different opinion than the majority and post on here you get ostracized by the masses. It was simply a suggestion for a specific situation in the game. Do I want us to play a zone except for a few minutes when a situation dictates? No
 
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Part of adjusting well means having guards and wings that can score when the opposing D is keying in on one or two bigs. In Purdue's last two NCAA Tournament games, the only players outside of the trio of bigs (Hammons, Haas, Swanigan) to score in double-figures in those games were Vince Edwards (both games) and Dakota Mathias (UALR game). Players have to make plays and shots, but it's still the coaches job to put them (the non-post players) in better positions to score, whether it be through play-calling or just reminding them of their options and space in the motion offense. In regards to the last two NCAA Tournament games, I wouldn't consider that adjusting all that well on CMP's part.
Last year is pretty much irrelevant. The same people aren't here and the situation is different.

Painter made some great adjustments during the GS game that did help facilitate the 20 to 2 run towards the end. And save the foul situation GS was in because it's not a viable excuse to ignore the adjustments made. The coach still had to come up with that game plan to get those fouls then adjust to get the scoring going. But since that goes against your narrative of ever giving Painter credit, I don't expect you do anything but complain.

You really should add a note at the end of your post, sort of like a signature on an email, something like:

I hate Painter so there is nothing he will ever do that I will see as a positive nor will I ever give him credit for anything no matter what. If he were to get to the Final Four or win a title, I still would not give him credit because then I would look like a rube on a chat forum.


If you could add something like that I think that would go a long way to make sure people don't waste time reading your posts since you have no intention of being objective.
 
Zones are very tough to play at the college level if you are not extremely long & athletic. The Boilers are neither.

If you play 2-3, Swanigan has to cover a wing or corner.

If you play a 3-2, Haas & Swanigan have to covers corners.

If you go 1-3-1, Haas & Swanigan are both covering away from the basket.

They could play 2-3 if they only go 1 big, but then they are very small length wise & that will allow teams to get easy shots & you can play above the zone in college BB.

If I were one to change their defense (as a 20 year Head Coach @ HS level & played college BB), I would back the pressure point off in M-T-M.
 
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Zones are very tough to play at the college level if you are not extremely long & athletic. The Boilers are neither. If you play 2-3, Swanigan has to cover a wing or corner. If you play a 3-2, Haas & Swanigan have to covers corners. If you go 1-3-1, Haas & Swanigan & both covering away from the basket. They could play 2-3 if they only go 1 Big, but then they are very small length wise & that will allow teams to get easy shots & you can play above the zone in college BB.

If I were one to change their defense (as a 20 year Head Coach @ HS level & played college BB), I would back the pressure point off in M-T-M.

Very good. I think a 2-3 is possible even with Biggie, but prefer man like you. Also, Purdue has backed off the pressure more than years ago. That said I agree with you and stated such in the man to man thread. Imagine Haas in a 1-2-2 or a 3-2 covering the baseline out in space? :)
 
that's physics. It's inevitable. :)

Just don't cross the streams......

tumblr_mwthtzrqPT1s2wio8o2_400.gif
 
Very good. I think a 2-3 is possible even with Biggie, but prefer man like you. Also, Purdue has backed off the pressure more than years ago. That said I agree with you and stated such in the man to man thread. Imagine Haas in a 1-2-2 or a 3-2 covering the baseline out in space? :)
You would never put Haas on the baseline in a 1-3-1, because that would require him to defend corner to corner. Instead, I'd had him defend the post in the middle of the zone. (I like the 1-3-1, but not with Purdue's personel.)
 
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